February 10, 2005 5:46 PM PST

House backs major shift to electronic IDs

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The U.S. House of Representatives approved on Thursday a sweeping set of rules aimed at forcing states to issue all adults federally approved electronic ID cards, including driver's licenses.

Under the rules, federal employees would reject licenses or identity cards that don't comply, which could curb Americans' access to airplanes, trains, national parks, federal courthouses and other areas controlled by the federal government. The bill was approved by a 261-161 vote.

The measure, called the Real ID Act, says that driver's licenses and other ID cards must include a digital photograph, anticounterfeiting features and undefined "machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements" that could include a magnetic strip or RFID tag. The Department of Homeland Security would be charged with drafting the details of the regulation.

Republican politicians argued that the new rules were necessary to thwart terrorists, saying that four of the Sept. 11, 2001, hijackers possessed valid state-issued driver's licenses. "When I get on an airplane and someone shows ID, I'd like to be sure they are who they say they are," said Rep. Tom Davis, a Virginia Republican, during a floor debate that started Wednesday.

States would be required to demand proof of the person's Social Security number and confirm that number with the Social Security Administration. They would also have to scan in documents showing the person's date of birth and immigration status, and create a massive store "so that the (scanned) images can be retained in electronic storage in a transferable format" permanently.

Another portion of the bill says that states would be required to link their DMV databases if they wished to receive federal funds. Among the information that must be shared: All data fields printed on drivers' licenses and identification cards, and complete drivers' histories, including motor vehicle violations, suspensions and points on licenses.

The Bush administration threw its weight behind the Real ID Act, which has been derided by some conservative and civil liberties groups as tantamount to a national ID card. The White House said in a statement this week that it "strongly supports House passage" of the bill.

Thursday's vote mostly fell along party lines. About 95 percent of the House Republicans voted for the bill, which had been prepared by the judiciary committee chairman, F. James Sensenbrenner, a Wisconsin Republican. More than three-fourths of the House Democrats opposed it.

Rep. Eleanor Holmes Norton, a Democrat from Washington, D.C., charged that Republicans were becoming hypocrites by trampling on states' rights. "I thought the other side of the aisle extols federalism at all times," Norton said. "Yes, even in hard times, even when you're dealing with terrorism. So what's happening now? Why are those who speak up for states whenever it strikes their fancy doing this now?"

Civil libertarians and firearm rights groups condemned the bill before the vote. The American Civil Liberties Union likened the new rules to a "de facto national ID card," saying that the measure would force "states to deny driver's licenses to undocumented immigrants" and make DMV employees act as agents of the federal immigration service.

Because an ID is required to purchase a firearm from a dealer, Gun Owners of America said the bill amounts to a "bureaucratic back door to implementation of a national ID card." The group warned that it would "empower the federal government to determine who can get a driver's license--and under what conditions."

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Welcome to America...
Why don't they just force us to have implants put in at our own expence. Better yet, just enforce marshall law until the terrorist threat is over.

The funny thing is this won't stop terrorist, but will cause all kinds of problems for Americans.

Good job Bush and Co.
Posted by System Tyrant (1453 comments )
Reply Link Flag
No Problem With A Federal I D Card
I would love to have a federal ID card now, a military drivers' license which I wouldn't have to renew.
Having to show my birth certificate every four years to drive, after being born here in conus is going to be a bother. All because the CIA ran an office out of the twin towers that the average citizen knew nothing about because it is illegal for the CIA to operate within CONUS. Tell that to the Arabs.

By the way, my space bar doesn't work so well. Why is that?
Posted by (1 comment )
Link Flag
Hell!!!, I was a republican now what am I !!!!
I would rather live in danger. Seems a little like Germany circa
1939 or Russia circa 1960,70,80 or China 1990. I think I will
vote for the next liberal running for office even if it is a Clinton
or Kennedy.
Posted by (1 comment )
Link Flag
"Why don't they just force us to have implants put in at our own expence"
Unfortunately, that possibility is not far around the corner.

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://news.cbsi.com/2100-1041-5111637.html?tag=yt" target="_newWindow">http://news.cbsi.com/2100-1041-5111637.html?tag=yt</a>

Last I looked, this act wasn't exactly kosher either...

4th Amendment

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

While I'm not a lawyer it looks pretty plain to me that the Government cannot legally have access to my "papers" (ie licenses, bank records, identifications, etc) without a warrant and they can't legally get a warrant without probable cause...

Looks like its time to write some letters...
Posted by (23 comments )
Link Flag
They Doed US U.S. Citizens Like Weve Never Been Doed Before
Just this afternoon I sent a p-communique to politech on this very subject.

I saw it coming, you saw it coming and it came a rompin and a stompin all over our personal liberty and privacy.

Let me share a tweaked version of the e-missive I launched to politech today with the CNETizens reading this Declan Real ID Act Passes News Flash article.

The U.S. House of Representatives passing the Real ID Act brings to mind the philosophical question that still begs a real-world answer here in the post-9/11 21st Century U.S. Who owns my identity, me or the State [Congress, Supreme Court and President]? Is it I who determines and authenticates who I am or is it the State who defines, certifies and authenticates who I am?

The term Identity Theft implies identity ownership. That is, for someone to steal something from someone, the target of the theft has to own the object-item stolen. If I own my identity it would be stolen from me. If the identity is government owned, it would be a theft from the State but not me.

Page 19 of the Executive Summary to the 9-11 Commission Report, recommends, Set[ting] standards for the issuance of birth certificates and sources of identification like drivers licenses. Read Em and Weep, the U.S. House did just that today.

What struck me in this sentence of the 9-11 Commission Report recommendations was the peculiar way it was worded (peculiar to me, anyway). It uses the phrase sources of identification. That combination of words struck me as odd. The sentence clearly was a well scrubbed, wordsmithed and lawyered one.

It occurred to me that there is only a single PRIME SOURCE of MY IDENTITY, namely ME. I am ME, know I am ME and nobody else is ME. All other sources of identification such as birth certificates, baptismal records, drivers licenses, etc. are ancillary, and not MY IDENTITY, but rather only records or descriptive depictions of MY IDENTITY, and at best a recording of my geographical and temporal points-of-origin.

A few months back I wrote about this same personal identification subject in a discussion about Defense Science Board: Chairman, Dr. William Schneider, Jr., PhD, and his statements and opinions concerning Identity Authentication.

See: <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://news.cbsi.com/5208-7348-0.html?forumID=1&#38;threadID=2328&#38;messageID=12688&#38;start=-1" target="_newWindow">http://news.cbsi.com/5208-7348-0.html?forumID=1&#38;threadID=2328&#38;messageID=12688&#38;start=-1</a>

My personal belief is that I own my identity, not the government. So having some Government Bureaucrat Gatekeeper mufti sitting in judgment of IT, per some stipulation of this new Real ID Act, doesnt sit well with my free citizen, Jeffersonian small government, BIG PERSONAL LIBERTY, PRIVACY &#38; FREEDOM views.

If you want to know my identity, ask me. I own IT, Ill tell IT to you. If I lie to you or misrepresent it, arrest me for lying to a law enforcement officer-agent or whatever. There are laws on the books to cover such things already.

Passage of H.R. 418, The Real ID Act, gives the federal government open-ended authority to determine who may and may not get a drivers license and under what circumstances (i.e. Identity Control). If passed by the Senate and approved by the President, it will transform State drivers licenses into de facto National ID cards. Im personally troubled by this devolution of Personal Liberty and Privacy all done in the name of securing Citizen Liberty and Freedom.

President Wilson cautioned us about this when he said, We do not profess to be champions of Liberty, and then consent to see Liberty destroyed.

I recently renewed my expiring U.S. Passport for another ten years, and upon looking at my new passport photo and personal identity data thought, Boy, Im sure glad my photo image, surname, etc displayed therein, is of Northern European and not Mediterranean-Middle East geo-political-ethnic origins and heritage. The bio-metrics of my passport photo should keep me off the computer generated looks foreign TSA-DOS list, and a very, very low probability candidate for Hey you, please step out of line and come with us ethnic profiling or person-of-interest special processing and handling of any sort.

With Real ID forget about international passport issues. Ill soon have domestic, pseudo-National ID issues to concern myself about. Before long, when boarding the Greyfield Inn Ferry to make the Border Crossing from Florida-to-Georgia to take my Bride-For-Life true love to Cumberland Islands Greyfield Inn for a romantic Week-End Get-Away, I and my wife will have to show our Nationally Certified REAL ID Drivers Licenses to board the Ferry going over and coming back.

Things are getting curiouser and curiouser.
Posted by Catgic (106 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Federal ID cards
When it seems like all three branches of the US government are marching in unison in usurping the citizens' fourth amendment right, it is because they answer a higher authority than the US constitution. Yes, we the people don't recognize a higher authority but if one reads Agenda 21 from the auspicious UN the protocols clearly state all nations will assign a number along with a birth certificate at time of birth for all citizens. This national and international identifier number will enable each and every soul on this planet to be tracked and traced by our "owners" The US legislators are signatory to these agreements and in exchange for their fealty, they can continue to obtain the privelege of borrowing from the IMF.
Posted by (2 comments )
Link Flag
It's About Time
Perhaps this will evolve to a point where we don't have to hear of "overvotes" like those in Washington last year. No wonder most Dems voted against it.
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
This will harder on the Soc Sec Admin than on folks
The Feds will have to creat a user friendly, searchable {for matches} data base. That Base will be open to DMVs &#38; Liscense Issuers, to Airlines &#38; travel agents.

They should make it open to Employers &#38; "HR staff".

All those "I-9 forms" could be checked, by employers. "Juan Doe" couldn't be working in 6 or 7 cities; at the same time. His height &#38; weight couldn't vary VASTLY between precincts {on election day}.

"Machine Politicians" will kill this Bill; or The Social Security System folks will.
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
I don't think it is that bad.
Even as a Libertarian (big L) I have to say I am not really bothered by this. There are just too many people in the US that are getting by just fine with open warrants in other states. It is rather sad that you can just move 30 miles away over a state border and beat the system because state crime databases are not integrated well.

The only complaint I might have is that I don't want to get pulled over for speeding and have the system show the cop minir traffic violations from when I was 17.

Other than that I have nothing to hide and am all for the system.
Posted by Dachi (797 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Libertarian
Before you call yourself a 'libertarian' you had better look up the word in the dictionary and then read some history. A National ID has been the first step for every free country that has lost its freedom.
Posted by Michael Grogan (308 comments )
Link Flag
Headline a Tad Misleading
As I listened to this debate on cspan, I understood that this bill requires nothing of states. What it proposes to do is to set standards for acceptance of state driver's licenses for any Federal ID purposes - such as boarding an airline. Rep. Stensenbrenner specifically stated that states need do nothing to comply with this act, but whatever they do with their DL's will impact their citizen's ability to use the DL as Federal ID.
Posted by (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Floor debate and headline
Jim:

Headlines can never be as precise as the entirety of the article, but I think ours does a reasonable job. And the first two paragraphs of the article clearly say that states don't have to comply -- it's "voluntary."

But if you think that such a state's citizens will willingly go along with a situation in which they can't travel, register for Social Security, or go to national parks, you have a different view of life than I do.
Posted by declan00 (848 comments )
Link Flag
ElectronicID
It's about time the government started to enforce the laws that have been so blatantly ignored for for years. If we did this 20 years ago, we might not have had 911 in the first place.
Posted by (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
20 years ago
...was too close to WWII and people clearly remembered what national ID's meant in Europe with the Axis powers. This could never have been implemented then; the government had to wait until people became as ignorant and pliable as you are.
Posted by Michael Grogan (308 comments )
Link Flag
It comforts me
If you don't want to feel comfortable knowing that somebody driving a car, boarding a plane, registering to vote or buying a gun has earned that privelige by being a legal citizen who isn't a convicted felon or would like to commit a terrorist act by kiling your childeren must mean this act is spoiling your plans. Why do you think these things are a 'right' and not a privelage that actually has to be earned?
Posted by (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
They are "rights" because
...we ahve not yet let the government remove all of our constitutional rights through the use of things like national ID's.
Posted by Michael Grogan (308 comments )
Link Flag
Yes, they ARE RIGHTS---
The RIGHT to PRIVACY.

The RIGHT to FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES.

The RIGHT to FREELY TRAVEL.

The RIGHT to ASSEMBLE.

And, the RIGHT TO FREELY ASSOCIATE without FEAR.

THESE ARE NOT "PRIVILEGES". They ARE the 'basic human rights' codified in the U.S. CONSTITUTION, "...ENDOWED UPON ALL MEN by their Creator", and legally-guaranteed by they very document which is, in the end, the ONLY real-authority for the United States Government's EXISTENCE, ...AT ALL.

And, when I think of all of the millions of men and women who have sworn to defend that document, using whatever FORCE was necessary, ...even unto DEATH, ...AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, both foreign AND "domestic", ...I AM ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED by those TRAITORS TO AMERICA who would so readily SUBVERT the IMPORTANCE of those RIGHTS.

Furthermore, I am not so STUPID as to, actually, believe that ANY of this has ANYTHING to due with "illegal-aliens", or "terrorists", or REAL "criminals". This is CLEARLY a matter of the 'IMPOSITION OF POWER and CONTROL" over the American People, pure and simple.

So, to all those that don't have a problem with consigning MY basic RIGHTS. to the TRASH-HEAP of history, I have a simple question:

Are you honestly SO GROTESQUELY IGNORANT of The "United States Constitution", ...American-history, or 'world-history' that you can't realize just how WRONG THIS IS, ...or how much CORRUPTION THIS TRULY REPRESENTS, ...or, just how much FORCEFUL-RESISTANCE, we AMERICANS, are willing to launch against this type of OUTRIGHT-ASSAULT on OUR BASIC RIGHTS?

...If so, you'd better be ready for the biggest fight of anyone's life.
Posted by Gayle Edwards (262 comments )
Link Flag
Why is driving NOT a right, anyway?
I can walk wherever I want, I can ride a horse wherever I want. I can GO wherever I want (outside of trespassing). What Constitutional authority says I can't use a car for that? Driving is only the use of a technology.

I have a right to drive my car anywhere I want to; the ONLY legitimate purpose for a license is to prove I know how to operate it; definitely NOT as a carrot for good behavior.
Posted by (58 comments )
Link Flag
Is about Time
Maybe the waste in the liberal give away programs will be better controlled with the new ID system.
We had a case in Florida where a person had 30 some social security numbers and the same number of driver lisences, got lots of food stamps.
Would think the state departments that issue birth certificates would link the parents ID also.
Posted by tiger50068 (5 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Why not?
"The American Civil Liberties Union likened the new rules to a "de facto national ID card," saying that the measure would force "states to deny driver's licenses to undocumented immigrants" and make DMV employees act as agents of the federal immigration service."

Well isn't that just too bad! Imagine that...denying criminals who have entered our country illegally the "right" to a driver's license. How terribly insensitive of us. Why not just let them have all the rights and privileges afforded a citizen of our country. After all they earned it, right?
What a load of crap! This is a great idea. Round the illegals up; place a subdermal chip on them to track them; send them home; and shoot them if they come back. I am sick to death of this issue. My wife, an Asian, had to dot all her i's and cross all her t's to get her greencard, and we had to shell out a generous amount of money for all the paperwork. Why the hell should these illegals receive the same treatment as those who have done the right thing? Sure, there is complacency in corporate America, and I am all for holding those idiots accountable too. This should be a none issue.
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
I agree
I have to agree, that its a good idea. I'm a canadian living in Georgia. My wife is american. It took a lot of time, patience and yes, money to finally get the visa I needed to get down here.
Those who aren't here legally should be made to leave. Thats a given. If they want to live and work in this country. Do it the right way. And if ID cards are needed to control that, then thats what has to be done.

If you want something, work for it and earn it.
Maybe when people understand that, we won't have such problems.
Posted by (7 comments )
Link Flag
I agree 100%
It never ceases to amaze me how hard the liberal's are fighting for the illegal aliens to have rights in America. I am sick and tire of illegal aliens, let's do a charge back to their respected countries for the amount of monies spent on their well being.Send them a monthly bill of all fee's and cost of "upkeep". How many other countries do illegal aliens have rights like ours? Shut the back door and keep it shut! If u are coming to America, come thru the front door.
Posted by (1 comment )
Link Flag
and we had to shell out
a generous amount of money! Says it all, doesn't it? I am sick to death of self righteous, redneck morons who think they're better than everyone else because they have money!
Posted by Michael Grogan (308 comments )
Link Flag
This should be a none issue
Will it still be a non issue when the Government tells you and your wife that you also need to get the implant? What about your children?

What happens when a Government Official scans your wife's arm only to find out that you missed crossing a solitary "T" on her paper work rendering it invalid? Will you be happy when they include her in the "Round up"?

Hmmmm... come to think of it. We have had "round ups" in the past now haven't we.

Whether its a RFID chip or a Gold Star on your chest its the same thought process.
Posted by (23 comments )
Link Flag
House approves electronic ID cards article
House approves electronic ID cards
Published: February 10, 2005, 5:46 PM PST
By Declan McCullagh
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
The U.S. House of Representatives approved on Thursday a sweeping set of rules aimed at forcing states to issue all adults federally approved electronic ID cards, including driver's licenses.
Under the rules, federal employees (Now theres a quality dilemma, now private business will need a federal employee to check you out for hiring?) would reject licenses or identity cards that don't comply, which could curb Americans' access to airplanes, trains, national parks, federal courthouses and other areas controlled by the federal government. (So, like what happens to South West Airlines ad: your free to move about the country) The bill was approved by a 261-161 vote.
The measure, called the Real ID Act, says that driver's licenses and other ID cards must include a digital photograph, anti-counterfeiting features and undefined "machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements" that could include a magnetic strip or RFID tag. The Department of Homeland Security would be charged with drafting the details of the regulation.
Republican politicians argued that the new rules were necessary to thwart terrorists, saying that four of the Sept. 11, 2001, hijackers possessed valid state-issued driver's licenses. (They had valid drivers licensesHummm, just like you and me, so cant they get a valid new ID to comply. Its not the ID, its not the Gun, Its not the Car that does the damage, its the people. How is an ID going to stop the mind of the person from changing?) "When I get on an airplane and someone shows ID, I'd like to be sure they are who they say they are," said Rep. Tom Davis, a Virginia Republican,(Hey Virginia are you listening, time for him to be replaced, The ID is an assured deal, I dont think so.) during a floor debate that started Wednesday.
States would be required to demand proof of the person's Social Security number (Since social security is voluntary program and one cant be required to get a number, and with the present proposals in congress and by the president regarding social securityI wouldnt even consider the program if I were 18 now. Learning the saving ways on ones own can far out reach the hand out by the politicians) and confirm that number with the Social Security Administration. They would also have to scan in documents showing the person's date of birth and immigration status, (Maybe thats why Bush Budget Dumps 9,790 Border Patrol Agents) and create a massive store "so that the (scanned) images can be retained in electronic storage in a transferable format" permanently. (Isnt this to protect the Banks, and the people in power? It has nothing to do with the good people out there who go about there daily lives making ends meet day to day.)
Another portion of the bill says that states would be required to link their DMV databases if they wished to receive federal funds. (Its all about the money) Among the information that must be shared: All data fields printed on drivers' licenses and identification cards, and complete drivers' histories, including motor vehicle violations, suspensions and points on licenses. (Well be carrying small computers, hope you carry a spare battery)
The Bush administration threw its weight behind the Real ID Act, which has been derided by some conservative and civil liberties groups as tantamount to a national ID card. The White House said in a statement this week that it "strongly supports House passage" of the bill. (So Bush has to be checked each time he gets on airforce one, those guard are federal employees, what good for the goose is good for the gander. All congressman and women will do the sme before enter any of the federal buildings.)
Thursday's vote mostly fell along party lines. About 95 percent of the House Republicans voted for the bill, which had been prepared by the judiciary committee chairman, F. James Sensenbrenner, a Wisconsin Republican. More than three-fourths of the House Democrats opposed it.
Rep. Eleanor Holmes Norton, a Democrat from Washington, D.C., charged that Republicans were becoming hypocrites by trampling on states' rights. "I thought the other side of the aisle extols federalism at all times," Norton said. "Yes, even in hard times, even when you're dealing with terrorism. So what's happening now? Why are those who speak up for states whenever it strikes their fancy doing this now?"
Civil libertarians and firearm rights groups condemned the bill before the vote. The American Civil Liberties Union likened the new rules to a "de facto national ID card," saying that the measure would force "states to deny driver's licenses to undocumented immigrants" and make DMV employees act as agents of the federal immigration service.
Because an ID is required to purchase a firearm from a dealer, Gun Owners of America said the bill amounts to a "bureaucratic back door to implementation of a national ID card." The group warned that it would "empower the federal government to determine who can get a driver's license--and under what conditions." (Do they mean other than be qualified to drive a car?)
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
All for it
It always surprises me when I hear people complain about a system that is meant to protect our country's citizen's further. I for one am all for it. Bring it on. Hell, I was all for the national ID card too. What do my family and I have to worry about? Nothing! We are law abiding citizens.

No matter how hard I try, I cannot see a downside to this. Illegal or "undocumented" immigrants can't get a drivers licence? Oh my... that is so horrible. Why should anyone who is here illegally be able to have the same priveledges as I do? I would feel safer knowning that when I am on a plane or otherwise, the people that are on the plane with me, have been identified as being safe to fly with. And no, I'm not talking about just muslim terrorists - all people. A terrorist can come from any walk of life.

I'm sorry, I see no downside what so ever.
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
NO DOWN SIDE?
Have you ever looked at a history book? Did someone take your high school tests for you? Or are you a high school drop-out?
Posted by Michael Grogan (308 comments )
Link Flag
in this state
Well, the illegals can get a driver's license in this state (TN). It's easier to keep track of potential terrorist this way. It's easier to do that than to deport all the illegals and the government can continue with it's failure to uphold the laws.

"Those that will give up their liberties for security deserves neither."
-B. Franklin

If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom.
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Posted by (2 comments )
Link Flag
Three 911 hijacker had valid driver license
Were they terrorist when they got there drivers license if so why did they get them?What is going to stop the next Hijackers from having there DL with a chip in it? The Gov.can only know what they have done to a point in there life.I just see where this tecnology can lead If we end up in a dictatorship world goverment.They will stop ministers from preaching about sins. beware America
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
We will be LESS Safe
This development is shocking and Dangerous, with a capital "D". The loss of privacy is a far larger and more serious threat to the collective security than the present system. HERE's JUST ONE small example of the Danger: We will be on a slipery slope to where Radio-Id tags (that broadcast data about you) on your driver's license will alow anyone to follow every move you make while that card is on your person. This "benefit" will next be added as another "security" feature to your car's registration tag, so that which anyone (police, IRS, stalker, angery lover)with the right equipment will be able to track your every move. Your employer will know you stopped for cigarets or that your car was parked, not at the doctors office, but at the local driving range. Your government will know far more. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! Your freedoms are being put at great jeopardy in a hand wave of "security." It does NOT have to be this way. Airport security and other "gateways" can be kept secure without requiring that every state tell one another your complete driving history, as well as the federal government. Maybe you all should re-read Orwell's 1984, because you're allowing your government to slither down that road. Big Brother is coming. And if that happens, the terrorists will have won by robbing us of the very freedoms they so despise.
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
something to hide.....
You do realize that the two examples you gave (going golfing instead of to the doctors' and stopping for cigarettes instead of being about the business your employer is paying you for) just point out that those who oppose a national ID card are just those who have something to hide. If you're being paid by your employer to do something, you have a responsiblity to do it. What do you think when you're paying for a nice meal at a restaurant and then you see the waiter just standing around talking with his buddies. It's the same concept.

So many people talk about our RIGHTS but no one every mentions our RESPONSIBILITIES. When people get sworn in as citizens they take oaths of responsibility. Just because you were born here and never had to take those oaths doesn't mean that you don't have the same responsibilities. Here's the oath:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

It's interesting to me that the Constitution is only mentioned once (and no specific rights are mentioned), but that there are many responsibilities mentioned. They all say "when required by the law," not "when required by the law and it doesn't interfere with my supposed rights." It also mentions that you have no mental reservation about taking this oath. All those "minor" violations (traffic or otherwise) seem to me to be evidence of reservations about following the laws of the U.S.

Only those who have always fulfilled their responsiblities (obeying all laws--even traffic laws, serving on a jury when asked, being honest at tax time, voting at all elections you're eligible to vote at, etc.) have a RIGHT to complain about their rights being trampled on. If this isn't you, then change yourself before trying to change others. Consider this an opportunity to start with a clean slate. After you've done your part, then see if you don't feel differently.
Posted by richbyu (4 comments )
Link Flag
The US. is being desensitized
The United States has been desensitized by the evil that has proliferated our world we live in and though we cannot stop this ID card from being implemented we can pray for an out pouring of the Holy Ghost just as in Acts 2:38. We can pray for souls to be won and eyes to be opened to what is happening and going to happen to this world. Soon things will change very quickly and there will be a day when our rights will completely be taken from us and we will neither be able to buy or sell unless we have the mark of the beast. As crazy as it sounds to some this ID card is just one more step toward desensitizing this world into believing it will be a safer place to live if we just take the chip in our cards or just put it under our skin. Read for yourselves Revelations 14:9 and Revelation 13:16-17 and see what will happen and escape this plan of the mark of the beast by being saved by the blood of the lamb, Jesus Christ who said we must be born of the water and of the spirit Read John 3:3-8 and then read how to receive the spirit of the Lord in Acts 2:37-39. Pray saints pray!
Posted by (4 comments )
Link Flag
Headline and story ignore immigration issues
As a California resident I say bring it on. I'm sick of watching our
government sit on their collective duffs and allow millions of
people to pour over the border. This is first step in throttling the
massive illegal immigration problem you myopic conspiracy
theorists continue to ignore.
Posted by hkyshawn (10 comments )
Reply Link Flag
What conspiracy?
Our freedoms are being snatched away piecemeal for every new problem that comes down the pike-the drug war, terrorism and what have you. There doesn't need to be a conspiracy for us to lose our freedom, all it takes is COMPLACENCY! And if you think ID's will have any impact at all on the illegal alien problem, think again! They won't!
Posted by Michael Grogan (308 comments )
Link Flag
Just what kind of problems?
I'm very curious, what kind of problems do illegal immigrants cause you personally? Did one take a job from you? Or a relative? Have you been involved in an auto accident with someone improperly papered?

Or is it the very idea of them "illegal immigrants" that make you angry? Is it because of the label the press has stuck them with? Would "undocumented visitors" cause you as much consternation?

The right to travel freely is a right because it is not earned, it is a given. Although the US Constitution is supposed to ensure our rights are considered in the making of laws and public policy, it is not the constitution that provides those rights. Our Creator provides those rights. The constitution is a guardian of those rights. They are not to be extended as priveleges that can be tarrifed or taken from us.

Likewise, even those who are not Americans deserve those rights, regardless of their place of birth, their licensing status, their economic status, or the length of time they have been in this country. They have a right to walk the earth, to go where their lives and opportunities lead, regardless of state and national boundaries, as do you and everyone else who lives and breathes. This is what the founders of this nation wanted to preserve - liberty.
Posted by iammacmaniac (9 comments )
Link Flag
Odd justification
"Republican politicians argued that the new rules were necessary to thwart terrorists, saying that four of the Sept. 11, 2001, hijackers possessed valid state-issued driver's licenses."

As I recall, they used either their real names and addresses or known aliases.

"When I get on an airplane and someone shows ID, I'd like to be sure they are who they say they are," said Rep. Tom Davis.

Airport security knew exactly who these people were. And they let them board anyway.

A more logical justification would be to focus on terrorists who got onboard using *fake* IDs. All this incident supports is that we need to pay better attention to who we let through the gate *after* they're identified.
Posted by Kelson (64 comments )
Reply Link Flag
tired of 9/11 as a reason for anything
At this point, many of the alleged hijackers have been found alive and well according to several news items. There seems to be a lot of doubt concerning the veracity of the entire 9/11 conspiracy theory, as promulgated in the popular media, as well.
Why, then, are we changing the meaning and intent of the Constitution that has served us well for over 200 years? Every American school kid, and every naturized citizen, and many foreign people (American wannabes) take the Constitution to be THE PROMISE TO AMERICANS, and includes specifically, the BILL OF RIGHTS.
The political noise machine seems to relish the practise of making bogus claims about the need to change things, and bases their ideas and urgency on what's turning out to be a bogus notion of what happened on 9/11.
Let's figure out what happened on 9/11 first, and *then* make some serious adjustments, if need be, rather than follow the imprecise principle of "ready, FIRE, aim".

Dave
in St. Louis
Posted by Soularddave (14 comments )
Link Flag
I like it
I like it because if they indentify a terrorist they can quickly block that person from getting access anywhere. I realize that it gives the rest of us less privacy, but we life in a whole different invironment. We have to protect ourselves, if your a good citizen that follows the laws of the land this should not alarm you. I do think they need to add some laws along with this new bill. One law should not allow any non-government approved electronic technology be able to use information from these new id cards. This will help control abuse of our personal privacy.
Posted by (4 comments )
Reply Link Flag
I am a good citizen..
..and I once took an oath to uphold and protect the constitution of the United States. I took that oath seriously and I still do so I feel I have every reason to be alarmed when I see another attack on the civil rights afforded to us all by that same constitution. You need to reevaluate your definition of 'good citizen'!
Posted by Michael Grogan (308 comments )
Link Flag
What would happen if....
someone stole your identity (anything can be forged, and electronic media is the most colorable media of all) and you suddenly found out, as you tried to board a flight for a beloved family member's burial, that you are now on the government's terrorist watch list--and under arrest?
Posted by iammacmaniac (9 comments )
Link Flag
Pros & Cons of new Federal ID-Card Requirements
Doggone. I wrote an essay for this reply -- runs over 8000 letters or 1300 words -- only to then see that this "Reply" section only accepts 75 (words? letters?)! Where can I post my essay on this topic?

Anyway: I recommend that those who so adamanetly favor this national ID card/system idea read Jeremy Levin's "This Perfect Day", George Orwell's "1984", or view Stephen Spielberg's "THX 1138" or Tery Gilliam's "Brazil". And then see if you still love this idea.

Yes, we need a way to filter out the terrorists (and other "bad guys". But (a) at what expense to oir own rights and heritage, and (b) isn't there perhaps a better, more well-thought-out, way to do it?
Posted by Protonius-Redux (4 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Um I think your post is over 75 letters, eh?
The 75 character limit only applies to the reply subject line. Post your essay here!
Posted by iammacmaniac (9 comments )
Link Flag
Passage of 418 ("Real ID")
This is an abomination. It is, just like the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, the Intelligence act and so many others, totally against the spirit of the Constitution, if not the letter. (It *is* against the letter, let's face it.)

I am a Libertarian who proudly supported Michael Badnarik in 2004.

The police state is here. If it wasn't before, it will be now when this monstrosity goes into effect.

The biggest problem is not only that lawmakers do not read bills before they vote. The biggest problem is that the people do not think for themselves any more, do not question authority any more. We need to start, *now* to do that, and dig in our heels against the demise of our liberty.
Posted by alicelillie (6 comments )
Reply Link Flag
now
Spit the chips out of your mouth and ready the cocktails. Hmm?
Posted by Viktor King (9 comments )
Link Flag
What she said...
Right on, Alice! People need to realize that with all the attacks the US is making on its citizens that we are at war with federal government and have been for decades. Fascists need national ID cards to restrict freedom of travel and spread their terrorism to each of us as individuals.
Posted by iammacmaniac (9 comments )
Link Flag
For those unaware or just plain sheep....
For over 70 years now has the government been trying to develop "legal" ways to spy on the citizens of this country since such activity is illegal under the search and seizure and right to privacy portions of our constitution. All federal,state and local law enforcement agencies are required by law to obtain a court order in order to do any surveillance on any citizen of the US residing in the US. The only area where this currently does not apply is the internet since it is considered "public domain".

The reason the government would like to spy on its citizens is not so much to protect us citizens as to protect the institution of the government itself from us citizens. Hence the reason that there have been so many secret bunkers and control systems developed and special training in the military and certain law enforcement agancies strictly for the purpose of "civilian control". There is also a plan developed and instituted under FEMA so that under martial law, no constitutional rights are valid to any citizen. Period! This plan allows FEMA to take control and to essentially run the country without any regard to constitutional laws nor right to due process. (kinda like the SS of Germany in WW2)

The treaty with Britain from WW2 allows that Britain may spy on our citizens and we theirs. The compromise was in the sharing of intelligence section which set up that we would then share back any intelligence gained on each others country. This network was developed on the phone conversations being analyzed for certain keywords that would be "flagged". This is as close to being able to legally spy on citizens as our government has ever been able to do... till 911 and Homeland Security.

Now, out of our own fear of death, a condition you will not escape from anyway, the government has finally found the key to subvert your constitutional rights. Now, because you are afraid, they can finally develop the legal means to monitor and gain control of the citizens. Now, because you are afraid and ignorant, you have given them permission to do so. To become a central government controlled country, like China, Thailand, Hitler's Germany, the former USSR, to name a few.

In all the above comparisons, the initial and essential means of developing and maintaining control has been thru government issued id. And the means of "checkpoints" so as to control travel and monitor the movement of citizens who might assemble for the purpose of overthrowing the control of the government over the people.

Don't believe this? Then you'd better become a history buff so you can foresee your future and your childrens future.
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
FEMA WEBSITE
Mark,
Speaking of FEMA, their website had pictures of their response to the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon. Those pictures included views of parts of the jet engines of the "object" that caused all the damage. They apeared to be about 24-30 inches in diameter, NOT 10 feet in diameter, as one would expect those of a boeing 757 to be.
Those pix are one of those things that make me go "Hmmmmm". Put "9/11 conspiracy theory" in your search engine and see what falls out. There are many sites, and tons of pix. You too, may want to go "Hmmmm".

Dave
Posted by Soularddave (14 comments )
Link Flag
Getting chipped and the mark of the beast
Revelation 13:16

He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads.
17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is a number of a man: His number is 666.

In relation to all world events occurring now, compared to the written prophecies of the bible, it does not take a scholar to clearly see that we are on the eve of the great tribulation. Every warning that Jesus gave us in happening now and only gaining speed very quickly. This type of technology under the guise of our own security is just one trend which will soon become the very foundation for this mark. Companies like Applied Digital Solutions and Verichip are pushing the implantable ID chip, which will one day become mandatory world-wide, under the rule of the antichrist. Todays news has just advanced this trend greately.
If there ever was a time and need to seek Jesus for salvation to escape this horrible era in human history and find true eternal life, instead of an eternity in a heelish flame, that time would be now. Regardless of how badly our world has fallen away from the truth of how things are meant to be. Regardless of whatever theorized religious ideology seems to fit best with the world and the life you desire to live. There is only one way to life, and it is only through Jesus Christ.
I encourage you to take some time and do a deep study of these warning signs Jesus told us to look for. And then take a hard look at the world around around. Anybody with a sliver of wisdom and common sense can see this clearly. It is not written as some secret code as many believe it is. Begin with Matthew chapter 24. These are the basic signs we are to look for just prior to the tribulation period. Read through Mark, Luke, John, Romans, Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation as well. Go to any Christian prophecy site for guidance and information.

It is written that once this upcoming peace treaty with Israel is signed, the tribulation begins. And it will last 7 years up to the return of Jesus Christ at the very end of this undescribably horrific era. The bible is so specific, it even tells us the exact number of days, which is 2,520 days. The first half is written as 1,260 days, and the second as 1,260 days. And the bible strongly indicates that the United States will be utterly destroyed early in the first half of this end time.
Jesus awaits you with open Arms and a loving heart. It is your choice to seek Him and accept Him.
In His Name,
Richard Minch.
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
it's over
The mark of the beast has come and basically gone. Anyone who has studied the history of the Catholic church knows that babies are marked on their hands and heads at baptism. The Catholic church also controlled all buying, etc. rights in its prime. Get over the whole mark of the beast thing. It has no real effect on us now.
Posted by richbyu (4 comments )
Link Flag
mark of the beast
unfortunately, all you've written is true, and nothing we can do will change what has to happen(downfall of the US and UK) etc etc etc...
Posted by dundonrl (1 comment )
Link Flag
national idea card
Congress no longer even pretends to represent the American People. They are making war on us as are the other two branches of our "republic" (well, it used to be). They have nullified the Bill of Rights through the "Patriot" Act and subsequent (and even previous) legislation. In addition to attacking our Natural Rights (ie. our God-given rights, guaranteed by the Constitution), they are attacking our nation by allowing immense legal and illegal immigration, allowing and subsidizing the exportation of our industrial and technological base, and giving power of decisions to international bodies through treaty and other agreements (NAFTA, etc.). They have allowed the vote to be stolen from the American people (see the book Black Box Voting, and the website www.blackboxvoting.org). They have allowed the so-called 9-11 commission to publish what amounts to a "limited hangout" that is supposedly critical of the administration (really a junta) but in reality establishes more attacks on our civil liberties by the organizations that allowed the attacks to happen in the first place. They allow government entities and large corporate entities to engage in large-scale drug trafficking and they use our tax money and government agencies to attack the competition of these organized smuggling operations and they use the "drug war" as a pretext to destroy the constitutional rights of the American People (just as they do with the "War on Terror" which would be more aptly termed the "War on the Rights of American Citizens"). In short, the vast majority of congressmen are traitors purposely destroying the Republic and its citizens!
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
The skirmishes in the 2nd civil war
Ruby Ridge
Waco, Texas
The Oklahoma City bombing
The first WTC attacks (1993)
The 9-11 WTC and Pentagon attacks

on the last, please check out <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.inplanesite.com" target="_newWindow">http://www.inplanesite.com</a> and view the evidence, decide for yourself.
Posted by iammacmaniac (9 comments )
Link Flag
Fed ID card
Why waste more money on our BS insecurities and someone do their damn job and just get Usama. We got Uday and Kusay and poppa, but this phantom just seemingly doesn't exsist or is allowed to remain to sustain US fears of this 'prince of darkness' which in reality is in the WH.
Posted by (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
The Need for a Universial ID Amongst States
For years now documents have been forged in every media ranging from Bonds and T-Notes to Social Security Numbers and Driver License's. To this day the technology used to thwart counterfeiting is being surpassed by the counterfeiters'.

Every day you have to wonder if the person your standing next to has just lifted your wallet, and is beginning a mental shopping spree. Good thing her boyfriend looks just like you.

You'll now spend the next week trying to straighten out your life, while wondering how much fun the "other you" is having! Who know's, maybe they'll get a couple of speeding tickets in your name before you realize your license is gone.

If you had the USID (Universal State ID) you could have reported your license missing the minute you got home or noticed it was missing. The real-time licensing reponse center would put a temporary hold on your license and issue a new one immediately, to which you can pick up at the DMV in the morning, while driving with your temp pass that you printed from the USID website.

Thank God you'll be able to cash that check at the local grociery store the next morning because you have your ID back. Good thing the Major Credit Card Banks were tied into the USID Database. So your credit cards, the one's that went with the wallet, were immediately put on hold.

20 minutes after you called your license missing the Credit Card Operations Center give's you a friendly call stating, "Mr. Jone's, we have issued your new cards via express mail, you will recieve them the next day".

Little Johny get's busted less than an hour later trying to buy his sweetie, the one who stole your wallet, pretty diamonds from Diamons4Dirt.com (as of this writing this site does not exist). Thanks to USID, now you can afford the diamonds, for Valentines day, for your sweety!

And as far as tracking people with this technology is concerned, your already being tracked. Every minute of the day that your CELL PHONE is on in your pocket you are being tracked. Your cell phones sends out a beacon to reponding towers to show your were-abouts for the next call.

At any one time there are 3 cell phone tower's that have a lock on your cell phone, my cell phone, and my mama's cell phone. Your cell phone carries a unique ID that is used when conversing with these towers. In other word's, you have been tracked since the day you recieved your first cell phone and your first call.

Think about the headaches that can be saved from implementing this technology. The headaches saved greatly outweigh the headaches caused!

Justin
Posted by (4 comments )
Reply Link Flag
AMEN!!!
I totally agree!!!!
Posted by richbyu (4 comments )
Link Flag
P-Communiqué to JG and His Lock-Steppin Brethren and Sistren
JG, your response is a well written one, but if I get an identity headache Ill take two aspirins and e-mail you in the morning rather then line up for your government imposed USID sheep dip treatment.

One Apple QuickTime is worth a thousand key rattled P-Communiquéd words. Recall the Apple-Macintosh commercial that introduced the Apple Mac on 24 January 1984 <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.uriah.com/apple-qt/1984.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.uriah.com/apple-qt/1984.html</a> . In case you missed him slogging in lock-step with his USID REAL ID Brethren and Sistren, Mrs. Gunds little boy, Justin, can be seen sitting near the aisle on one of the back benches attired in Uncle Sammy Buck$ Big Brothers Anti-Terrorism DHS Gray bureaucrat designer togs. Hes the smiling fellow with the pendulous USID hanging from his neck.

Where was I on 01241984? Unfortunately, I had a conflict and was at a Cyber-COMM Tech Biz meeting doing my Go-Go Eighties Tech thing, so I had to send my sister in my stead. Her red shorts were a birthday present of mine to her. The shirt was a gift from Steve Wozniak. Sis always has looked great in red. She did an outstanding accurate job with the hammer throw, wouldnt you agree?

Permit me some literary license, no not USID REAL ID drivers license, with this paraphrased adaptation of the 1984 text to Y2K + 5s 9/11 + 4 and counting.

Today, we celebrate the glorious anniversary of the Patriot Act I &#38; II Directives and establishment of DHS. The 9-11 Commission Report has been issued and we have created, for the first time in all history, a garden of pure Anti-Terrorism ideology. Where each citizen serf may bloom secure from the pests of contradictory and confusing truths. Our Unification of Thoughts Anti-Terrorism Coalition Force is more powerful a weapon than any fleet or army on earth. We are one people, with one will, one resolve, one cause. Our enemies shall talk themselves to death and we will bury them with their own confusion. We shall protect you as we did before 12081941, 02261993, 04191995 and 09112001. Trust us, vote for us, we shall prevail!

Well, JG, the scrum lines are clearly and colorfully drawn. Its we hammer throwing Individual Liberty &#38; Privacy Red [White &#38; Blue] Shorts wearing citizens versus you and your lock-stepping Big Brothers Anti-Terrorism DHS Gray bureaucrat designer togs wearing Brethren and Sistren.
Posted by Catgic (106 comments )
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