Hey, PC, who taught you to fight back?

After taking a beating in the “Get a Mac” ads, Microsoft is emphasizing the diversity of PC users and the value of Windows machines.
(From The New York Times)

The story "Hey, PC, who taught you to fight back?" published August 29, 2009 at 6:11 PM is no longer available on CNET News.

Content from The New York Times expires after 7 days.

[solitare_pax]

Frankly, Apple's ads making fun of Microsoft wasting money on those Seinfeld ads instead of fixing the flaws of Vista hit home for me - at that point, everyone was hating it so much they were protesting the fact that Microsoft was going to pull the plug on Windows XP, which is a decent enough OS to continue with.

It will be interesting to see how Windows 7 fares in the future - with both Microsoft and Apple ads. I wonder if any of those laptop hunters will come back to say they switched to a mac?

[Random_Walk]

...depends on how much money is involved, and if the actors in the "laptop hunter" commercials had to sign a non-compete clause. :)

[Super2online]

I'm a PC and I love the fact that Microsoft finally decided to stand up for the hundreds of millions of people world wide that are very proud of that.

[Random_Walk]

I'm not a "PC" - I'm a human being who happens to use computers and tends to think for himself.

Hint: They're tools, not altars.

[santuccie]

@Penguinisto:

'Hint: They're tools, not altars.'
>>>>It's refreshing to read that from you, of all people. After all, you're one of VERY few Mac users with the zeal to continue pretending that OS X has never been infected remotely (and never can be without sudo), and that Vista is being pwned in the wild, no matter how many times you are corrected. "You spot it, you got it," that's what they say. Either you're so devout in your religion that you block out the truth, or you're pretty young (which would explain why your writing skills are better-developed than your reading comprehension). And in case you're thinking of accusing me of religious zealotry, be aware you'd look pretty dumb doing so. I've used all three main platforms, and continue to use two of them. My problem is not with seeing my deity's inventory being taken; my problem is with fiction.

BTW, did you happen to see the responses to all your links? Obviously you didn't read any of them, because one of them is a joke, and the rest require user intervention. OOPS!

[Random_Walk]

Hiya santuccie!

Sorry, but OSX is merely one of many OSes I have and use.

I use OSX at home because it requires the absolute least maintenance. FreeBSD is among the most secure, so it gets pressed into service as my home firewall/file server/ etc. I play with Linux because it's just plain fun. At work, I just finished migrating from Exchange 2k3 to Exchange 2007, because it makes sense at this time to continue using Exchange as a groupware product. We also have and maintain SharePoint and OCS. I'm leaving today for VMWorld in San Francisco, which utilizes a stripped *nix-based hypervisor and (on ESX) has a Linux console VM. The VM's in my stables are a little bit of everything (except OSX, due to Apple's licensing issues). I use FreeBSD and Linux at work as well.

You find me criticizing Microsoft not out of hatred, but because I have to deal with the results of their actions on a professional scale, and they have shown themselves the least likely to give a damn. I can just as easily pick out the positive moves they've made, and do. Same with Linux, and if OSX ever becomes a force in the workplace, they'll fall under scrutiny as well.

I do love how you pretend all of these other things of me, and I love how you expect me to go back and see the results of your (now that I look through the history) rather energetic necroposting (sorry, but combing through stories that have fallen off the radar long ago is a bit tedious, yanno?)

Put down your incense sticks already, eh?

But hey - continue to promote your myths, if it makes you feel better about yourself.

[Jeremy Chappell]

Yawn. Seriously? Mac isn't the problem for Microsoft - it's XP. Microsoft haven't managed to convince enough people to move from XP to Vista. This IS Microsoft's real problem - when they think they need to fight Apple they are missing the whole point.

What Microsoft need to do is get ahead of their real problem, they need to convince enough people to move from XP to Windows 7. Focusing on the Mac is distracting them and blunting the message. They need to forget about Apple, yes they do lose people to Macs, but the gapping hole in their strategy is XP. Computer makers are developing new systems to run XP - this has to be seen as an abject failure of Microsoft's Windows marketing.

Microsoft seem to think they're locked in a battle with Apple - they are't, they are failing to get users from their own older operating system on to their new operating systems. This is the real challenge.

[Gold_Storm_Mac]

no one can be a mac or a pc. they're humans and not computers.

[santuccie]

Myths, right. Myths that are fully explained and substantiated with quotes from the experts. Meanwhile, your "facts" are repetitive, chanted assertions, without any sources whatsoever, only your word. The experts are wrong, you're right, and that is that. Also, pretending to be two different people backing each other up, until you ruin yourself by putting your signature under the wrong username, doesn't help your credibility one bit.

Throughout our discussions, you have demonstrated an utter ignorance of security technologies and hacking, unable to grasp the difference between a backdoor Trojan and an exploit installing a backdoor. You keep saying that Charlie Miller is plugging his "geek stick" into the target machine and "exploiting" it locally, with sudo. As much as you're supposed to know about computers and security, you don't even get the old adage, "as long as you can install SOFTWARE on your computer, you can install malicious SOFTWARE on your computer."

Sorry, but I'm not buying it. You know too little about computers for someone like me to fall for your empty claims of working on computers and using multiple platforms. And by the way, OpenBSD is the most secure, not FreeBSD. That out of the way, of course you're not going to take the time to address my responses to your links, not because the stories have fallen off the radar (much like your 2005 and 2007 stories of biological computer viruses and Trojan horses that you mistake for exploits), but because it's embarrassing to admit when you've crammed your foot in your mouth. And by the way, if my stories have fallen off the radar, then why do I find you in the forums under brand, new blogs about these very subjects on CNET? They've fallen off the radar because you're subjectively blocking them out to protect your faith.

Again, telling me to put down MY incense sticks, when the one who makes empty and unsubstantiated assertions and refuses to accept evidenced reality is NOT me, just made you look dumber. Go ahead and pretend that Pwn2Own is not really happening. Go ahead and pretend that security researchers are criticizing Windows security instead of Mac OS security. Go ahead and pretend that the PoC exploit for Mac OS made publicly available on Landon Fuller's site never existed. And while you're at it, go ahead and accuse ME of pretending, LOL.

Get back to your chants. I'll be here to refute them, AGAIN; readers here should have to pay by falling for a meme, just so you can keep trying to convince yourself of this upside-down fantasy that Mac OS is impenetrable and Vista is Swiss cheese, and sleep better.

[santuccie]

BTW, for those who want to see how I "pretend things about Penguinisto" (a.k.a. Randomwalk), see here: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10320085-92.html

[UnlabledMilk]

I love how Random_Walk didn't reply to santuccie's second post.

[irperez]

I'm a PC and I love my new version of Windows 7 on my laptop. And can I give a high five to Microsoft for the ads. They are great. Don't stop! Can't wait for the Windows 7 ads when its released to everyone.

Oh and BTW, All this talk of snow leopard. ITS A $30 SERVICE PACK!!! Us PC's get them for free :)

[David Turner]

Since you so clearly feel that Snow Leopard is just a service pack can you tell me why?
In your mind what is the definition of service pack vs updates vs paid upgrade

To me generally:

Update is bug fixes, satiability and performance improvements
Service pack is a package of updates
Paid upgrade introduces new features

All operating systems (win, mac, linux.. etc) have the updates and service packs which are normally provided for free.

Given the new features introduced with Snow Leopard I would say its a little more then just a service pack

[winstein]

To me Windows 7 IS the service pack 3 for Vista.

[Random_Walk]

I'm curious - when was the last Windows Service Pack that was, in essence, a 90% re-write and improvement in code?

I mean, Windows NT 4.0 Service Pack 4 was a nice boost and all, but nowhere close, yanno?

[chickenfish]

yes, its a big call to say that snow leopard is a service pack. The entire operating system has been recoded to work twice as fast. Not to mention the new features it introduces including 64 bit support. Yes, admittedly it is not a fully fledged new OS but that's why it's only going to cost $30. Last time i checked Vista cost well over $100 and didn't even work properly. No wonder you needed those free service packs.

[lukefreiler]

@David Turner,

I'm actually both a Mac and PC user, and I was quite excited to get Snow Leopard simply because it was a new Apple OS, but in reality after a day of using it pretty extensively I can honestly say that I feel like I paid for a patch. Beyond a slightly new look to Expose, I literally can't say I've noticed a single change. And while a day isn't a long time - I can honestly say I'd have noticed plenty more in any new Mac or Windows OS previously.

Maybe it's different if you're an Exchange user - but the rest of us just basically paid to upgrade to a slightly-gimped version of Quicktime Pro.

=Luke

[anilsudh]

And Windows 7 is nothing but a new wallpaper and screen saver put on Vista. It's Vista SP3.

[mpitogo]

I installed Snow Leopard this Friday and on the surface it looks exactly like Leopard, but it doesn't act it. I was very skeptical about the touted improvements but I must say I was really taken by surprise. It installed fine on MBP and Air, once running I really couldn't tell the difference but once I started working I saw the difference. SL was made for speed! Instead of focusing on features they focused on optimization and IMHO they succeeded. Leopard was also no slouch either and in the end $49 (family pack) was well worth it for what those software engineers did. In a way Windows 7 is a Vista service pack but you'll have to pay mad loot in comparison. Especially for a household with multiple PC installations. Stick to XP, Vista or upgrade to Vista SP3 aka WIndows 7?

[Kent Pribbernow]

@Random_Walk

I hope you didn't pay for that "information" because if so you were punked. Windows 7 in no way a complete rewrite of Windows - this is absurd. 7 is an evolutionary upgrade, fixing many of the fundamental flaws that made Vista famously infamous.

[Random_Walk]

"Windows 7 in no way a complete rewrite of Windows - this is absurd."

I never said it was - I said that Snow Leopard was a near-complete rewrite of OSX 10.5 (90% of its codebase got re-written).

[Jeremy Chappell]

So what is it about Windows 7 that's so different to Vista?

You don't get it - Snow Leopard is a huge engineering leg up for Apple (the single biggest since Mac OS 9 made way for Mac OS X) sure it's petty invisible to the user, but there is no way it could have been delivered as a service pack.

In a lot of ways Windows 7 is less of an upgrade to Windows Vista - I'm not saying that's a bad thing BTW. Probably Microsoft's biggest mistake was having the distance between XP and Windows Vista be so large - both in terms of time and in terms of too many technology changes all at once. The effect on some users was catastrophic, and that has soured Vista's reputation, the problem wasn't really the OS per se, rather the effect of so many changes all at once on backward compatibility. Didn't help that some of the big name GPU makers didn't have their ducks in a row when Vista launched.

Now think about what utter nonsense you've expressed here when you're in the queue paying for Windows 7 - it's not that I think you'll be getting a bad deal, I don't, but the idea that Apple's deal on Snow Leopard was bad is simply not credible.

[EvanSei]

ahh I remember those adds and I look forward to future adds in this battle, I have to say those Seinfeild adds I couldn't understand where they where trying to go with them, and the adds where microsoft gives people $1000 to spend don't impress me if they gave those people $2000 and they still picked a pc now that would really be some thing. And apple just released an add where pc dresses up as a mac and they say how great windows is and how crashy macs are and how macs are prone to viruses and that pc's are just way better and is trying to get this person to buy a pc, I was expecting mac to come out and say how it is all wrong and pc to crash or something, it never happened, why would you promote the competition?

[wegarnett]

It would really be something if most of us had $2000 to spend, but since I don't, the under $1000 PC is a much better deal.

[EvanSei]

@wegarnettt I am not saying we should all spend $2000 for a computer what I was getting at is that for around $2000 you can pick up the top of the line macbook pro or a top of the line pc. for the $1000 microsoft was giving it was either a good PC or a bear bones mac unless you are stupid your going to get the good PC, if people had $2000 it would be interesting to see whether they would get a top of the line pc or a top of the line mac, the way MS ran it there was a big advantage toward the pc lets level the playing field and see what happens.

[Seaspray0]

@EvanSei. If you want to get realistic, then offer the average price that people spend on a laptop. That's between $700 and $800. That way you wouldn't be accused of being biased on costs with something like... $2000.

[ShrikeMD]

This article will likely trigger its share of comments.

Can't we all just get along?

I realize it is sometimes fun to take sides and point out the flaws in the opposing sides arguments, but this is really an issue of preference. Some people actually prefer PCs, as hard as that is to believe to Mac users. Mac users (myself included) live our computer-related lives without thinking about the nuisance of viruses, system crashes, or interminably long boot-up times. My OS is very intuitive (albeit not perfect), but I do have fewer software choices, particularly with games. (Fortunately, my Mac can become a Windows PC if need be, but that is like asking my Mercedes to drop two cylinders and run like a Ford).

I think some PC users, particularly those who have never used a Mac, find it difficult to understand why Mac users are so loyal to their machines, to the point of paying hundreds of dollars more for them (in some cases).

It is all a matter of preference and choice.

[Jeremy Chappell]

Oh that all started so well. Why can't we all get along? Because Mac users compare PCs to Fords and Macs to Mercedes, that's why!

Now I'm with you on the Mac thing, I have one, my next computer will also be a Mac, I do have a PC but if you're asking me which do I prefer it's the Mac. But, my PC is faster (it's younger) and there are a whole raft of uses the PC is better suited for.

You want a machine that's as cheap as possible? That's a PC, you might argue that a Mac is worth the extra (and you'd probably have little trouble convincing me) but if you're on a crippling budget you might well be swayed by the argument but still have to buy a PC. You want to run games most of the time? Well again, a PC is a better option (I never quite understand why people try and mix this argument with the cheap argument - gaming on a computer is like burning money, but not all arguments make sense). You need to run some software that only runs on the PC all (or most of) the time - well again no point in buying a Mac to run Windows (yes you CAN do it - not very smart).

For me, I think the Mac is the right choice for most users (at this point in time, it wasn't always thus) as it comes with great software that does what most people WANT to do with their computer (rather than NEED to do) that is iLife, iWork is cheap, easy, compatible and a great fit for most people (I have both Office on the Mac and iWork, I can't remember the last time I used Word). A Mac with these packages covers most of the bases for most users. If you're a programmer (like me) then xCode is free on the Mac, and of course, Eclipse works just fine (like it does everywhere else). For some corporate users Snow Leopard now overcomes the need for Microsoft's Entourage (again for those watching in Windows like kinda like Outlook on the Mac, but not nearly as good).

However when I go sit at my PC it's not horrible (especially when I run Linux on it) and I've enjoyed owning and using it (and before that I enjoyed building it).

If you seriously want to get along with PC users you need to realise sometimes they've made the right choice, and they might not be better off on a Mac (some of the time that won't be true - try not to be too smug).

[Vegaman_Dan]

Unfortunately compujters are very polarizing. There are those who make them their very core of existance, living only to bash anything that isn't their particular choice of religion or OS, and then there's the rest of us who just use computers as they were meant to be and don't care.

[WileySkier]

I was going to say how objective you were until you compared Mercedes to Ford. It's actually a fairly good analogy execpt the two cylinders part. I'd like to see a Mercedes pull a 5000 lb boat....or a F150 pull up to the valet. Apples and oranges really.

Same with Mac and PC. PC's have more functionality for what I need so that's what I use. I might use a Mac if I was playing on the internet all day...joking.

btw, I'm using Windows 7 and like it so far. It seems a bit more polished than Vista...maybe like your Mercedes with the functionality of the F150.

[Renegade Knight]

I use both, and I've seen nothing on a Mac worth the loyalty the fanitics have. I have however seen the early adopters and it wasn't just a different PC it was a lifestyle choice and that I do understand. "Think different" wasn't selling a mac, it was selling a way of living.

[tektaktyks]

lol @ the switch ad,that girl sums it up,dumb clueless **** didnt know what she was doing with the pc so she overpayed for a mac and that made her smarter? i dont think so,still clueless im sure theres a lot of people like this,some even troll around cnet.
[CNET editor's note: Offensive language deleted.]

[lunchtimereader]

Most of my coworkers who are heavy PC users have went out and got a Mac. I left the PC world long ago, and never looked back. It just works better.

[winstein]

I think Microsoft got it all wrong. It should just come out and say a netbook starts about $300 while a Mac laptop starts about $1000. I'd love to get a Mac when I have more money, but in the mean time, I'll buy a PC.

[DrtyDogg]

They should not tout netbooks, all that is going to do is hurt their image. Go out buy an underpowered machine. Try and use it as full laptop, many people will put the slugishness as a Microsoft problem.

[roshanvijay]

Well, then OS X runs smoothly on a Dell Mini... This shows that Microsoft is incapable of developing software which would be compatible with very low hardware requirements.... I mean, have you ever seen Windows Vista or Windows 7 Ultimate on a netbook running smoothly? Yeah maybe Windows 7 does but Vista was a total failure..

[Jeremy Chappell]

I have to agree with DrtyDogg, NetBooks aren't what Microsoft want to see - it jives very badly with their product offerings. There is a reason Apple don't have a NetBook (yet) it doesn't really play any better for them.

You really need to look at a NetBook as a short term option (and that's hardly cost effective). In Europe you can get them with a mobile broadband contract then they make sense, you're locked in for what 18 months, then you can junk it and get another for the next 18 months. Then the product might make sense for a 2nd machine (I quite like the look of the new Nokia Booklet, and maybe something like that might make sense for me with a contract like I've just talked about).

[davidmcelroy_dotmac]

When Microsoft started responding to Apple, Apple won the battle right there. Market share and growth numbers will go up and down for the two platforms, but Microsoft made a dumb move because it is acknowledging Apple and making it appear to be a battle of equals. In reality, Microsoft has about a 9-1 advantage (or whatever), so for the 800-lb. gorilla to treat the "nobody" like someone worth responding to is a win for Apple. They appear (in the minds of media consumers) to be equals. Microsoft was in a no-win situation -- and it chose the worst possible choice. It would have been far better off to do effective marketing which pretended that Apple and its ads don't exist. It's clear that the Apple ads got under the skin of Microsoft's execs, and that caused them to make advertising decisions that weren't smart vis-a-vis their market position compared to Apple.

[Jeremy Chappell]

The logic of this is absolutely inescapable. I think the other problem is you've got better than 90% of the market, conventional wisdom says you should market your product, who do you compare yourself with? Microsoft made a fundamental mistake when they chose to compare themselves with Apple.

Of course, it doesn't help Microsoft that they don't control their image as Apple can. Take a look at those laptops in the ad, adorned with tasteless stickers promoting lots of brands other than Microsoft. Most laptops have: "Windows sticker", PC brand badge, GPU maker sticker, Intel/AMD sticker and often (and I can only think the PC maker has lost touch with good taste as well as reality on this one) a massive sticker detailing the specification, then a model identifier and if it's really unlucky a badge/sticker identifying the maker of the speakers! Now think about a Mac laptop, it has on the lid an Apple logo, on the inside a Macbook (or more likely Macbook Pro) badge. Is it really any wonder the Mac looks better? (Before we even consider industrial design) Then you switch the systems on, a PC is a flurry of ascii text then a Windows logo, on the Mac an Apple, then the OS loads. Now look at the default desktop, on the PC trialware, and other garbage, on the Mac only what Apple want there. Microsoft look cheap, not because they're doing anything wrong but because PC makers and polluting the brand. Macs don't have Intel stickers or GPU makers stickers, Mac don't even have specification written on them. Microsoft from a marketing perspective are at a considerable disadvantage to Apple.

[meh100]

There are two issues with this.

1) Apple doesn't compete with Microsoft so much as they compete with HP, Dell, Toshiba, Gateway, Acer, Sony, and so on. The OEMs are the ones who determine the specs and pricing on the computers, not MIcrosoft. In that market, having 8% puts them pretty high on the list.

2) Apple is specifically targeting one group of people- those who are looking for high-quality, high-end, more expensive machines. In that segment, *they* are the ones selling 90% of the computers (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10293876-37.html?tag=mncol). If Apple were to start selling $500 machines, I'm sure their market share dramatically but, to quote Steve Jobs, "We don't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk".

[billsoxs]

Ummmm. By number of OS boxes Yes. By market value No. By $ in the bank - No. By profit - No.... Remember boys and girls - Apple is also a major hardware vendor. MS is not.

[Renegade Knight]

The rule is all about not giving your competitor a free add. That's based on the assumption that any advertising is good avertising. Sort of like how some folks welcome any kind of publiscity good or bad.

However reality is that Mac has reached a certain critical mass and if MS does nothing, Macs share of the market is going to grow faster than if they do. Even macfanatics are complainting about who's buying mac now. It's no longer welcoming a brother who's seen the mac light, it's egads man, look at the riff raff. Stay away. Mac now has an immigration problem.

[Seaspray0]

@renegade knight. You made me smile with that post. I loved it!

[vmlenigma]

i just upgraded to Snow Leopard and I could not be happier, EVERYTHING works........FASTER

[toosday]

Apple had pretty much won the ads battle at first, but I was really surprised that Microsoft was able to make a comeback. (Although CP+B are brilliant at branding, so I shouldn't have been too surprised.) Why do I think Microsoft succeeded? Because they took a long-overdue defensive stand that worked so well that it completely put Apple on the defense. And on top of it all, Microsoft did so without being as cynical as the Apple ads are. Seeing the Microsoft and Apple ads back-to-back on television, Apple looks like the snotty, bad guy. That's pretty amazing to me.

[toosday]

I'm also glad that Apple has put the fire under Microsoft. I'm not sure we'd have the "gloriousness" of Windows 7 so soon had they not.

(P.S. I use a Mac.)

[Jeremy Chappell]

I don't understand that. The laptop hunters ads are about as snotty as it gets. They look sneaky, and putting stores right next to Apple's is hardly a "warm fuzzy" thing from a branding perspective.

[shellcodes_coder]

I am a PC and I love Windows 7 x64 and my machine which is DELL XPS H2C (STONE COLD THRILLER--A gaming machine) :)

[roshanvijay]

Advertising is a really really competitive arena... Companies and brands most of the times say the wrong stuff. I mean, well you can get a 'High-end' 17-inch PC laptop for under $1000 but not with freedom from all these viruses and 'blue-screens' which all are too familiar with windows users... Also, you can't get top notch build quality for under $1000. Look at all the Laptop PCs... except for some 5% or something, every single laptop out there is made out of cheap plastic... and look at the MacBook Pro-sleek aluminum... unibody design.. Mac ads say things which ARE true unlike microsoft ads which boast Windows to have the 'wow' user experience.Yeah i know, some people hate Justin Long in Get a Mac ads but whatever he's saying IS the truth and not bloated lies unlike Microsoft-whatever ads. I'm A Mac and I am proud of typing this comment from my iMac... :)

[Seaspray0]

blue screens? Where have you been, rip van winkle?

[Australian_Photographer]

I love PC users, they are almost always cheapskates. They come in, cringe at the AU$1899 Macbook Pro and go for the AU$999 Compaq or Toshiba.
They know they need Anti-Virus but don't want to spend anything so go for the free stuff.
Then, a month later, so many of them are back complaining that the machine only lasts an hour or two on battery, stalls when loading their holiday shots and has adware because the free anti-virus doesn't detect that stuff.
I finally sell them a Mac and they're back telling me how good it is!

[Vegaman_Dan]

So what you have basically just said is that Mas are for idiots? Are you sure you want to make that stand?

[Renegade Knight]

@Vegiman:

More than a few Mac sellers have mentioned that very strategy when selling Mac.

[EricJM001]

I have been struggeling with multiple unexpected reboots this morning with my Window 7 64-bit machine. This is supposed to be the best version of Windows ever? It feels more like the same old buggy and unpredictable product that is was when they called it Windows 95.

I don't care how much a Mac costs, if it can dispense with all the time I have wasted trying to keep my computer running without issues, it will be well worth the money. If other users are experiencing the same frustration with Windows 7 that I am, the ads will be very, very effective.

They are a nagging reminder that maybe its time to try something else.

[dduck123]

Please stop spreading fud. I have been Windows 7 for almost a year and never once had a problem. The thing still runs great on an HP Mini. We just deployled WIndows 7 on 1200 computers and things couldn't be better. If I were you you are serious about the rebooting issues, which I doubt is the truth, I would check your device drivers and make sure they are the most updated ones. In 10 months using this thing, I have yet to have an issue. Kuddos to Microsoft for this excellent product! By the way we have a SA agreement and that is why I was able to roll out 7 so quickly.

[Vegaman_Dan]

Please describe your hardware setup. I would fully expect you have an issue with hardware there.

[EricJM001]

Well, I can't tell you how but the spontaneous reboots have ceased. I don't know what I did, or if I did anything at all, but for the last couple of hours the crashes have stopped. It's very weird! If it were a hardware issue then why is everything working well now? If it was a software issue it survived multiple reboots, and then went away on its own. This is the textbook definition of quirky.

Do macs suffer from the same chaos? I have been thinking about getting a new laptop, and seriously thinking about a MacBook Pro. I'm kinda drawn to the thin design and aluminum construction. I don't play any computer games, so I think I would be a good fit for one.

[EricJM001]

Well, I can't tell you how but the spontaneous reboots have ceased. I don't know what I did, or if I did anything at all, but for the last couple of hours the crashes have stopped. It's very weird! If it were a hardware issue then why is everything working well now? If it was a software issue it survived multiple reboots, and then went away on its own. This is the textbook definition of quirky.

Do macs suffer from the same chaos? I have been thinking about getting a new laptop, and seriously thinking about a MacBook Pro. I'm kinda drawn to the thin design and aluminum construction. I don't play any computer games, so I think I would be a good fit for one.

[EricJM001]

Well, I can't tell you how but the spontaneous reboots have ceased. I don't know what I did, or if I did anything at all, but for the last couple of hours the crashes have stopped. It's very weird! If it were a hardware issue then why is everything working well now? If it was a software issue it survived multiple reboots, and then went away on its own. This is the textbook definition of quirky.

Do macs suffer from the same chaos? I have been thinking about getting a new laptop, and seriously thinking about a MacBook Pro. I'm kinda drawn to the thin design and aluminum construction. I don't play any computer games, so I think I would be a good fit for one.

[Renegade Knight]

@dduck123

Sorry, but your good luck doesn't man they haven't had problems. Someone told me how stable mac is. I crash it all the time. Someone told me that "Vista" was better than people gave it credit for. I've never had it work right on any computer I've owned. A new thing for me since every other version of Windows has, inlcuding 7 Beta.

The guy has a hardware problem (most likely) and if he's got Dell very likely to have a long and frustrating experience trying to get it resolved. I'm fighting Dell and Gateway both on issues. That's not MicroSofts fault that the companies who sell their product are utterly inept.

[magichr3]

The fact is Microsoft is a very lazy company. Apple is the company that pushes and forces them to change and improve their OS. Nearly every user change in their OS is a result of PC user Mac OS envy, certainly not by Microsoft's own innovation. PC users before, now and in the future should thank their lucky stars that Apple is forcing Microsoft every step of the way to attempt to keep up, albeit always 2-3 years behind on everything.

Employees walking around proud ?what a joke. I have worked for a stifling management company like Microsoft. They have so MANY employees that the could have put another man on the moon yet they can't make a secure and user friendly OS. Why, the reason is the people at the top are interested in the bottom line FIRST. At Apple the management have a commitment to make stuff that they themselves want. The employees their ARE truly proud of what that they and their company have made.

[servermaker]

One thing is certainly true. Competition is good for consumers/users.

[Mac OS XP]

Years ago, when I started high school, the person in charge of the computer lab said, "we use Macs, not PCs." And I was like, "What? Macs aren't personal computers?"

I don't understand how use of their own operating system makes Macs in a different class from PCs. If Microsoft started building their own hardware, would they be called "Micros" or something since they make their own hardware and software. Or if Dell switches to Linux-only, would they stop referring to Dells as "PCs"?

And Microsoft is really stupid with it's "I'm a PC" advertisements. In Apple's ads, those people are supposed to be the personification of computers. In Microsoft's ads, the people *are* the computers!

[WingWingDabbit]

im a person. my mac is a computer. so, isnt my mac my personal computer? my PC?

people who really care about this stuff are losers.

[magichr3]

and therefore people who care about people who care about this stuff are double losers then?

[WingWingDabbit]

@magichr3

precisely. the families/friends of everyone who posted a response defending one side over the other are double losers.

[Vegaman_Dan]

And I double dog dare you cross your heart and promise not to tell challenge you to say different!

And if you do, I'm telling the teacher!

[Renegade Knight]

It's about communications. People who can't, suffer. Good luck with that.

[quash_bug]

wow... all this talk about how great pcs are how great macs are, yet both systems are quite similar. i put a hackintosh system togeather and only one apple computer is better and not by much. i should also mention that my hackintosh also runs windows well:)

[Vegaman_Dan]

I think having both companies doing these back and forth shots across the bow are great. Keep it up.

I don't care which one wins- I fix whaever breaks and there's no real winner there except me. :)