Dell founder thinks different about Apple

Michael Dell is thinking different about the Mac OS.

The founder and chairman of the No. 1 computer maker told Fortune magazine that he would be interested in becoming a switcher of sorts if the opportunity ever came up.

"If Apple decides to open the Mac OS to others, we would be happy to offer it to our customers," Dell wrote in an e-mail.

It's a hypothetical reply to be sure, but Dell does relish the operating system diversity that his company provides. Dell ships its PCs exclusively with Microsoft Windows but does offer Red Hat Linux as well as Novell's Suse Linux and NetWare in servers and some systems. Dell made a halfhearted attempt to sell Linux laptops at one point but then pulled back after claiming there was no market.

Adding Apple Computer's Mac OS to its repertoire could give Dell's PC customers a more likely alternative to Windows.

An Apple representative declined to comment on the article. A Dell representative confirmed the e-mail but declined to say where Dell would install the OS--PCs, servers or both.

During Apple's Worldwide Developer Conference earlier this month, Apple CEO Steve Jobs announced plans to ship Macs using Intel microprocessors by this time next year.

After Jobs' presentation, Apple Senior Vice President Phil Schiller addressed the issue of running Windows on Macs, saying there are no plans to sell or support Windows on an Intel-based Mac. "That doesn't preclude someone from running it on a Mac. They probably will," he said. "We won't do anything to preclude that."

However, Schiller said the company does not plan to let people run Mac OS X on other computer makers' hardware. "We will not allow running Mac OS X on anything other than an Apple Mac," he said.

And though Apple is keeping its Mac OS in house, that doesn't prevent the company from opening up the licensing of its operating system to other PC manufacturers, as it did in the '80s and '90s with companies like Power Computing and Umax.

[William Squire]

Of course

I've been writing about this for a while now. Apple's decision is to move mainstream with their technology. Dell is offering Linux and Windows already, and Steve is missing out on the action in the PC market.

http://www.inaniloquent.com/PermaLink.aspx?guid=1342e6b7-53c9-4ff0-a0d8-b38ef9f600ec

Weird

"We will not allow running Mac OS X on anything other than an Apple Mac,"

Why Apple is not interested in making more money?
Allowing people to run and install Mac OS X on their computers or hawrdare will increase sales of OS X by 10000% as another (good) alternative to MS Windows.
PC market is desparate for another good OS,it will improve security,inovations and bring new technologies...all this equals MORE money.
But hey I am not CEO,so what do I know....

[Earl Benser]

Works out this way....

1. Apple sells computer systems, hardware and OS.

2. A PC is not capable of running any effective OS X system. The
design is just inadequate.

3. The MacTel computer should be able to run WIndows as well
as OS X, with a little fixing of Windows code, and perhaps the
MacTel could even run OS X and Windows simultaneously.

4. PC users who want to abandon Windows need to recognize
that they will also be abandoning many PC apps for which
duplicates don't exist in the Apple soiftware world. Games may
be the big loser in such a shift.

5. But if a PC user wants to begin transitioning away from
Windows, a MacTel gives him the best of both worlds. Still, the
MacTel is a better designed and built computer, and that means
that it won't be anywhere near as cheap as the 'walmart' PC's
being sold.

6. Apple doesn't need Dell, and Dell doesn't need Apple. Michael
was just blowing smoke

[NiallGandy]

Mac OS X works so well partly because its tuned to Apple computers.

[rodnarms]

Tried Before, It Failed

Didn't everyone think this was a good idea for Apple in the mid
90's and it almost killed the company? You would think after
learning that lesson this wouldn't even come up again.

Look, at the WWDC keynote Steve said that there was a project
to port OS X to Intel since it was made. The reason was just in
case. My view is that if Apple hardware ever flopped, there last
ditch effort would be to become a software company like
Microsoft.

Problem is Apple hardware is selling great and will continue to
do so.

[Richard G.]

Not selling so great.

No, Apple hardware is not selling so great. In fact this whole decision to cut IBM and embrace Intel is the result of low G5 sales by Apple.

IBM supplies G5 chips. But IBM has to invest it's own money into improvments to those chips, to compete with Intel's P4 line. Apple kept bugging IBM with demands on performance, power utilization and heat. But Apple didn't have to invest the money to make those improvements. Had Apple sold more G5 computers, it would have been worth it for IBM to improve the G5. But because Apple couldn't sell their products, it wasn't worth the expense to IBM for their one customer. IBM effectively said "Nah, not worth it for us" which made Steve Jobs run into the arms of Intel and spout off some story about IBM's road map or some-such lie.

It's sorta funny acutally. IBM's cell processors promise to be the next big thing in processing. Just as Cell processors are hitting the market, Apple jumps ship to Intel. Haha.

[Byronic]

That was a totally different story

Jobs for one did not think the old clone program was a good
idea. (So he shut it down.)

It's not so much that OpenStep was 'ported' to x86. It was
already runing in x86 when Apple bought it. It was ported to
PPC. (You know, the hardware that is selling well.)

All PC market needs is something truely 'different'. Things have
kinda stagnated (for windows users).

[rodtrent]

Uhhh..

Michael Dell has always been a bonehead.

[bbatsell]

Yeah.

Well, you know, except for the fact that he kind of built the number
1 computer manufacturing company in the world out of his garage
and is now a billionaire due to his business savvy.

I'm in no way a Dell apologist, but... you're an idiot.

[Sboston]

I question that

It seems to me that Jobs is being the bone head. Not everyone wants the 'pretty' case or design. Give me the OS to install on my hardware and I'll bet Aplle's business would expand to give MS a good hard run.

way to go!!

Here's how Steve Jobs should play it: as part of the port to Intel, switch the OS X kernel from BSD to Linux (cosmetic). Then start selling LinuxMac OS - I bet it will make more money (profits) than ipods and itunes combined!

[brasten]

Why??

The second you switch to Linux you introduce a whole line of
license issues. GPL is much more invasive than the BSD license
(which I'm just assuming FreeBSD uses. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Besides, except for some marketing buzz, what would a Linux-
based Mac OS X get you?? OS X is great the way it is.

Crack-high

Your Average user knows nothing about Linux, does not want to learn it, use it, see it, or hear about it. Give up. Linux is not for the Masses!

[pcLoadLetter]

Too bad Apple is shortsighted

Distros like Xandros are going to be the winner since Apple is gun shy and afraid of stepping out of the box they put themselves into.

Xandros is extremely easy to install and use, it has the security windows users need. Running Windows apps is a breeze. It is a very small company but are picking up steam, The fact that Apple wants to control its users more then even Microsoft, is what keeps Apple from gaining its marketshare. It is sad that a open source company will be able to help keep Apple down. Even sadder is the fact that Apple does it to themselves more then any competitor ever could,

[rturner2]

Dell is scared!

Imagine Apple selling a box for a similar price to Dell that runs the Mac OS and also Windows in a dual boot config. Awesome - true compatibility, more applications to choose from, better for testing etc.

As a PC owner, I would purchase Apple hardware if it ran Windows and was about the same price!

Apple would have a massive marketing advantage - they would be smart NOT to license their OS to any other company!!!

[Andrew J Glina]

You must be joking

Apple sell hardware with minimal profit? What planet are you from? Apple have always had a high mark up amd it is not going to change now. The only reason why the Mac Mini is cheaper is because it is based on 4+ year old parts.

[cfj03]

HELLO PEOPLE, no one WANTS to tweek a d*mn pc, they just want it to work

It never ceases to amaze me when people start talking about what you can do with Macs, OS X or Linux. Have you not spoken to anyone but other computer geeks(for lack of a better description)? The AVERAGE consumer DOES NOT WANT TO TWEAK ANYTHING. They don't have the time. They spend that time with friends, wives, kids, lovers etc!

Get a clue people. The computer, in all forms and OSes may be ubiquitous, but that doesn't mean people put them at the center of their lives.

[Scott W]

according to bill...

...they do. if you listen to bill's speeches you would believe that everyone wants to do everything via PC and windows.

[Thrudheim]

Hello?

So, your argument is that the average person doesn't want to
tweak anything, that their computer should "just work." Agreed.

So the average person should use Windows? LOL!!!! If anything,
your are making an argument for why people should use Macs.
There is no way that the Mac OS requires more tweaking than
Windows. Apple's software, moreover, is intuitive and makes it
easy to create really cool things. The iLife apps are case in
point. They integrate very tightly.

I've never heard anyone tell me that their Mac ground to a
creaking halt because it got loaded with spyware. I've never
heard a Mac user say "I ran such-and-such program and it found
48 viruses." Talk about tweaking . . .

Maybe you should think before saying that we all need to get a
clue!

[Terrence Koonce]

Apple needs to sell Dell a "stripped down" version of OSX

Apple needs to sell Dell a "stripped down" version of OSX, or
even make a slightly diffrent version of OSX for DELL, HP &
SELECT MANUFACTURES.

Apple could require select manufactures to have a specific CPU
or video card for example, that only Apple/Intel manufactures or
some other way for the OS to check a piece of required hardware
or it will not work!

Then everyone else could have the security of Apple systems.
Maybe even allowing I-Life to only work on Macs or something
like that, then there would still be a reason to by a Mac version.

Many corporations would be willing to by a Dell with ANY
version of OSX over XP/Longhorn as long as their were business
apps available!

Hey maybe Apple will lanch a second version of OSX a month or
so before Longhorn ships! Now that would be interesting! By the
way, didn't Apple did say they'd never use Intel chips? Just a
thought!

[Earl Benser]

Sorry, Terry, ...

... butthe PC motherboard is inadequate to run any useable form
of OS X, and Apple isn't likely to gut out a winning OS just to fit
it on a PC.

Leopard (the fourth uograde of the original OS X) will be
released before Longhorn or whatever it's called comes out of
the MS barn.

And when the PowerPC chip was blowing the socks off of the
then-current X86, Apple said they were sticking with the
PowerPC. But then, IBM couldn't (or wouldn't) fulfil the
performance and power promises to Apple. And with the
Pentium finally becoming competitive in performance, with a far
better growth forecast, the switch was on. The PowerPC's basic
design is still beter than the Pentium's, but Pentium's speed
advantage makes that design not so hot.

And Intel may have even bigger and better processors coming
for the MacTel computers.

[Byronic]

Mike IS scared

He understands business. He doesn't need to understand tech
much, because he basically just SELLS it.

He knows the Intel controls the chips that are in all his products.
He knows that the average consumer doens't know AMD from a
hole in the ground (Steve Jobs knows this too.) He knows that
Apple and Intel are thick right now, and that together, they have
more money than he does. (About 200 billion or so). They
also have real talent that can create products that he can't even
manage to copy when his techs have one in their hands to
dissasemble. (Seen many Dell DJs out there? I've never seen
one, whereas I can't cross the street with out runing into
someone with an iPod.)

What happens if Intel decides to JACK the prices of all their
chips, but gives apple a discount. (In some way that is legal, it
would NOT be hard.)

Intel makes about 82% of all PC chips. Wouldn't it be FUN to see
the PC world scrambling to find chips?

Wouldn't it be fun to see Apple have a new mac that was cheaper
than a PC (in such a way that was obvious to EVERYONE) and one
that runs windows as well as any PC, (to assuage any fear of the
unknown Mac OS). Consumer would no longer be afraid of Mac,
they could figure out on their own that it is indeed a far better
system. No longer would buying a Mac be an all or nothing
proposition.

What if Intel stopped selling to the rest of the PC market, just for
a quarter or two? Yeah, they would lose some money, but there
is NO WAY AMD et. al could make up the slack.

Apple marketshare could rise nearly as fast as the iPod did.

I am guessing that the big surprise is that Leopard runs windows
aps without requiring a copy of winodws, and in such a way that
they are not garishly ugly (nice look os OS X instead) and are not
a security nightmare (for instance, the OS warns you when
software was being installed, etc...) "Who knew it was that easy
to fix this mess?" would be the cry heard round the world.

It would not be that difficult for Apple to support the windows
APIs in a minimalist (ie. Microsoftian) way such that folks could
run their cruftware but they would want the Mac upgrades
instead of any PC ones, but they could still play games (that PC
is good for.) They already support all the Office code directly in
OS X such that any program can load word/excel docs.

Apple's move to Intel is a direct 'embrace and extend' move
directed squarely at M$. Intel is giddy as a school girl about
this (after having been shafted repeated by (who else) Microsoft.
(They treat everyone that way, Mac users however, know this
better than ANYONE.)

All you PCer's might want to start learning OS X now. If none of
you believe this, then that's GREAT actually, just keep on
sleeping, while M$ is resting on it's laurels, taking it's sweet time
coasting toward another delay of 'Longhorn'.

[Sboston]

Bwahahahaha!

While you are dreaming, dream up a few million bucks for your self.

You are an Idiot

1st Dell is Intels #1 customer, so none of the junk you said will happen

2nd Apple cannot and would never try to take on Dell toe to toe. Dell would clobber them. There are not enough Apple users now or probably 10 yrs from now for that to even happen.

3rd Dell has $3 billion, read that, BILLION more than Apple. It also quadruples the amount of cash it builds up ever year as compared to Apple.

4th Dell only has 2 real threats, Lenovo & itself

[br77575]

Sweet Dreams

Does your mommy know you are playing on the computer? Maybe you should go back and finish your nap. Hopefully your future dreams will be mature enough to make sense in the real world.

[originalbitman]

Funny

It is funny how the posts to any pro Apple comment have such a
consistent level sophistication to them. Things like "bwahahaha",
"you're an idiot" and "does your mommy know..." speak volumes
about those died in the wool Windoze posters.

My dad is bigger than your dad.

[mustangj36]

You seem to have way to much faith

in the "power" of Steve Jobs and the "stupidity" of Intel. Get back to us when your medication kicks in.

[hotshot982]

What's in it for Intel?

Why would Intel cut out ~95% of it's marketshare to form an exclusive partnership? AMD would probably wet itself if it suddenly found itself with that customer base all to itself.

I doubt consumers have as much loyalty to their CPU manufacturer as they do to their system builder and operating system of choice. And AMD chips have always cost less for the same performance. They were only outdone by the Core Duo, and considering the imminent release of a performance, integrated GPU/CPU, they'll get a lot of marketshare very soon.

In fact, AMD will probably do so well for a similar reason to why Apple products are so much better to you Macheads: integration of crucial components by a single manufacturer. Seems a side effect would be the PC increasing its lead in the power user market. (Sorry, couldn't resist a jab towards our monochromatically-themed friends)

[frankz00]

Good luck after trashing the iPod!!

Morons. This comes a few months after trashing the iPod. We all know how Steve Jobs reacts to even the slightest jabs. There's no way this would happen.

[Dibbs]

talk about an about-face!

wasn't dell the guy to file a complaint with the government about apple's ads? he likes to trash apple all the time. he knows he can't beat their products, so now he wants to carry them.

i don't see that happening after all his badmouthing. i wouldn't mind seeing HP get a deal though. they've been pretty good to apple, what selling their HP-branded iPods all over the place.

[Crazyglues]

you know what's really funny... this..

http://www.spymac.com/gallery/show_photo.php?picid=420891

I love that story :)

[oo7curtis]

So who needs Dell?

Who needs a Dell when you can just run wintel on your Mac? It
won't be long before one won't even need to run windoze.

[Sboston]

Maybe

But unless they release OSX to install on any PC, I won't be one of them.

I build my own machines and I can't see Apple letting me do that. And I just don't go for what Jobs thinks is hip. I've nver been hip and proud of it. :D

[Stan Johnson]

Best move I made was away from Apple

When my company forced a change from Mac OS to Windows XP I was terrified. I believed all the Apple propaganda. Now that I use a Dell running Windows XP I couldn't be happier to say goodbye to the overpriced proprietary Mac. I guess you could say I now get way more BANG FOR MY BUCK using a Dell running Windows XP. Much happier previous Mac Addict.

[bradkali]

Never an intel inside...

Apple said never an intel inside, Ummm, things have changed. So, Im guessing that they are bluffing once again with the quote, " OSX never on a PC"
If the money presents itself, then why wouldnt they.
It would be another smart move on Jobs part, if he did. I would be first in line to get OSX for my PC. To hell with Windows and Bill Gates.

[Earl Benser]

No way...

The PC platform, in it's current configuration, is inadquate to run
any meaningful version of OS X. OS X could be hacked to run
something on a PC that looks like OS X (I've got a student who
has already done that), but it would not run like oS X. OS X is
based on a significantly different motherboard design and
operation. There is just no way that a PC could meet the
requirements fpr OS X without actually being a MacTel design.

Yes, it could be nice to have OS X on a PC...

No, it just isn't going to happen....

[mustangj36]

Never gonna happen,

Mobo issues aside, Jobs wouldn't give up any control of the OS, let alone the profits from the proprietary hardware. And I believe that Mac prices will stay higher than equivalent pc's. Apple wants to stay distanced from the great unwashed to keep their more "sophisticated" clientele happy.
What a hoot.

Not the first time Intel has been inside an Apple

In the 1990's Apple had dual boot Macintosh/DOS capable
computers on the market. They included a 100MHz Pentium as I
remember. I was tempted to buy the card with the Intel
processor to see what it was like.

[Earl Benser]

No way...

The PC platform, in it's current configuration, is inadquate to run
any meaningful version of OS X. OS X could be hacked to run
something on a PC that looks like OS X (I've got a student who
has already done that), but it would not run like oS X. OS X is
based on a significantly different motherboard design and
operation. There is just no way that a PC could meet the
requirements fpr OS X without actually being a MacTel design.

Yes, it could be nice to have OS X on a PC...

No, it just isn't going to happen....

Great Idea

It would be a good thing to offer a reliable software package on an affordable machine.

[chintoo2006]

Mac OS is a stable alternative to Crap called Windows

Why are the Open Source people and Linux people wasting their time trying to develop a desktop OS on Unix/Linux when Mac OS like stable and reliable OS and User friendly alternative to the crap called Windows is already present

[hotshot982]

here's why

something about the idea of running programs and installing hardware that the user wants, not having a corporation dictate what a user can and and can't do with a product.

[cfj03]

How would WINDOWS on a MAC hurt MS though?

I see a lot of people talking about MACs running Windows but I don't see how that even remotely hurts Microsoft. In fact, I think that would just hurt Apple b/c their OS would probably be replaced as soon as people realize they can use anything from work at home and vice versa. In that case people would probably start asking for MACs WITHOUT Apple's OS. Heck, someone would probably demand it(whether it would fly or not is another story)

Finally, if you didn't realize, selling PCs (and that's what a MAC is) isn't as profitable as selling the operating system that runs on it b/c of the competition b/t pc hawkers. Apple would have to drop the price substantially if they want to gain market share.

[4nchip]

Intelamac vs. Dellamac who Wins?

Here is a little humor from 4ntv. Intelamac.com or Dellamac.com
Have fun, I did!

[Llib Setag]

DELL HAS FROZEN OVER!

Michael Dell the biggest, slimiest, cheapest hustler on the planet
is NOW kissing Steve Jobs' ass after standing in his shadow for
many years.

WHAT A HYPOCRITE Mr. Dell!

Would you like a little Grey Poupon with your crow Micheal?

FACTS FROM CNET HISTORY about how Michael Dell REALLY
"thinks differently" about Steve Jobs & Apple Computer:

[ Dell: Apple should close shop

Published: October 6, 1997, 2:00 PM PDT
By Jai Singh
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
TrackBackPrintE-mailTalkBack
ORLANDO, Florida--When it comes to the state of Apple
Computer, everyone has an opinion.

And at the Gartner Symposium and ITxpo97 here today, the CEO
of competitor Dell Computer added his voice to the chorus when
asked what could be done to fix the Mac maker. His solution was
a drastic one.


"What would I do? I'd shut it down and give the money back to
the shareholders," Michael Dell said before a crowd of several
thousand IT executives.


Dell's comments follow Steve Jobs's keynote address at the
Seybold trade show last week in San Francisco, where the Apple
cofounder seemed to win over attendees with his explanation of
why he had made certain key decisions, killing the clone market
and aligning more closely with Microsoft. The Seybold crowd--
as well as some Apple employees--also seemed to be buoyed by
the increasing role Jobs has taken on at the company as board
member and interim CEO.

But others, like Dell, appear to think that Jobs's expanded role
isn't helping. There is some concern that Apple will have a hard
time recruiting a top-notch CEO because of Jobs's presence.

Others fear that Apple could end up completely in Microsoft's
camp by deciding to use the NT operating system on its servers.
Apple is reportedly planning to come out with network
computers that would require high-end servers to function.

While many industry executives have offered opinions on how to
right Apple's ship, no high-level executive has made as blatant a
comment as Dell's. ]

THINK DIFFERENT, THINK AGAIN MR. DELL!

[hotshot982]

Nature of business

Are you really going to criticize him for following profit? Before, when Apple wasn't a very big player, Dell was free to say whatever he wanted. If he believes that he could make a bigger profit in a partnership with Apple, then you can't blame him for following the money. For god's sake, he's a businessman, not a politi...nevermind.

Apple on Intel - Bringing balance to the "PC Force"

Mac on Intel ? bringing balance to the ?PC Force?
June 17, 2005

It?s pretty clear that the entire PC industry will have a tremendous opportunity to correct itself from two decades of monopolization.

For as long as Apple will not prevent anyone (as they have officially stated), including Microsoft and Dell, from installing Windows on any non-Apple machine; and if Apple would eventually license its PC industrial designs to other PC makers, in a few short years Apple?s potential to grow into a $30 billion-a-year and up company will suddenly become realistic. Here?s a combination of possible (evolving) scenarios:

First - imagine Bill Gates frothing at the opportunity to install Windows on every PC built by Apple. He?s always wanted Windows to be just like the Mac, ever since Windows 1.0. More than any time in its history, PC?s now will have the opportunity to look just as good as Apple hardware systems such as the Mac Mini, iMac, and PowerMac. Millions of PC users would pay to have their familiar Windows OS running on PC?s that equal the beauty and industrial design that they find only on current Macs.

Second - Dell would quickly follow and would love to be one of the first recipients of Apple?s OSX. Even if they don?t license Apple?s industrial design, they could still install OSX on their current PC designs and maintain themselves as the biggest PC seller. Dell?s build-to-order model easily defeats the retail store model of the Apple stores. Plus, their customer support departments would be freed from all the virus and malware troubles that inhabit Windows. This will also lessen their lone dependence on Microsoft for operating systems.

While huge gains in the sales of more P4?s or Itanium?s are not the main motive of Intel, Apple represents a free channel for innovations that may have been previously limited by Microsoft or Dell. In a few short months, Intel could drive modern innovations for their processors and chipsets. And if they could help grow the Mac market share, they?ll definitely create a legitimate alternative to Microsoft. Interestingly, will Intel customize a smaller chip, by removing all legacy-supported transistor code for DOS, Windows 3.1 ? Win98? OSX won?t need it and it might allow Intel to produce smaller and lower watt-consumption chips. Intel could produce more chips per silicon wafer, hike up the speed and make a lot more money than the regular output than the current Pentium margins.

What about the software developers? They will naturally follow the Windows market. And once OSX tools become mainstream, with the demand for iLife and iTunes, they will not represent an obstacle to Apple?s adoption of Intel. It?s no wonder that the biggest software application developers, MS and Adobe, have already signed on.

Like it or not, the major PC vendors will get involved in the Apple-Intel partnership. But this time around, the entire PC industry will have the opportunity to correct itself from its current monopoly.

As good as Apple designs PC?s, as Steve Jobs stated, the heart and soul of the Mac is OSX. By themselves (with the new Intel chips), Apple?s current 2005 projected sales of four to five million Macs, about $14B worth, could easily double within the next two years. The combined efforts of Intel, Microsoft and Dell could double that within the same time frame, and usher Apple into their very exclusive club. But this time, the chance for PC industry parity among suppliers and customers might finally arise.

What a difference, Intel inside Apple, makes. Competition arises, and instead of MS, Intel and Dell ruling the PC industry, consumers finally get to dictate who wins.

[Earl Benser]

Not Hardly....

For as long as Apple will not prevent anyone (as they have
officially stated), including Microsoft and Dell, from installing
Windows on any non-Apple machine;
>> Apple said just the opposite, no OS X on non-Apple
computers.

and if Apple would eventually license its PC industrial designs to
other PC makers,
>> Apple tried that once, and the cloners wouldn't play by the
rules. End of idea.

...PC?s now will have the opportunity to look just as good as
Apple hardware systems such as the Mac Mini, iMac, and
PowerMac.
>> Only if the PC manufacturers agree to design a whole new PC
- which then would require MS to design a whole new OS. Both
are great ideas, neither are likely to happen. Also, I don't think
that Apple would allow a non-Apple Mac..

...Dell ... could still install OSX on their current PC designs and
maintain themselves as the biggest PC seller.
>> WRONG !!!! the PC is not capable of running any useful form
of OS X, and Apple won't even listen to the idea,

The rest of the previous message isn't relevant to the real world