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But observers of online games worry that the IRS doing so could be a disaster for online games. That's because it would require the constant tracking of the value of every kind of in-game asset and of all nonmonetary transactions.
"That would be an apocalypse for developers," said Matt Mihaly, CEO of Iron Realms, which publishes such online games as "Imperian" and "Lusternia." "I think it would make running (massively multiplayer online games like "EverQuest" or WoW) an unprofitable business to be in, except for the biggest publishers. We'd spend all of our time tracking deals between players. I don't know how we'd deal with the fact that we're creating wealth every time a monster makes a drop, or there's a reward."
Castronova agreed.
"There would have to be a reporting requirement," he said. "Everybody playing in a virtual world game would have to keep track of what their income is in gold pieces."
And Castronova doesn't think such an imposition by the IRS would be a good idea.
"That would be insane," he said. "You could do it. But it would just be a ridiculous burden. These game companies would have to keep a digital record of players' income and sales...It would generate a lot of paper. You'd have to set aside a lot of servers to keep records. It would add to the cost of games."
To Joseph Bankman, a professor at Stanford Law School, the question is not one game players or publishers should worry too much about.
"I think the common-sense answer is that the IRS wouldn't and shouldn't go after folks until they sell the assets," Bankman said. "The common sense reason for this is that for most folks, the 'assets' represent enjoyment value--what we call imputed income--that's not taxed. It's a little bit like getting an autograph of a baseball player or movie star. You could sell the autograph, and folks do, but we don't tax folks who get the autographs and don't sell them."
For its part, the IRS would say only that it expects players to report any real-world earnings from the sale of virtual goods. But in his article, Dibbell said the agency had suggested it might consider at least some of the assets taxable barter goods.
In any case, Dibbell isn't sure the future of online game playing will be free from tax forms.
"I just don't think it would be the catastrophe that everybody imagines," he said. Gamers "can say it has no value, but if they go out and participate in the RMT markets, the IRS is going to say money talks...(and that) you guys are the ones valuing this stuff, not us."
But Castronova hopes the IRS would see the social value of staying away.
"What would be nice would be a conversation between the IRS and the National Science Foundation," he said. "The NSF might say these worlds are really important social investigation tools and that if we treat them as an extension of the real world, they'll lose their value as a place where we try out social experiments."
See more CNET content tagged:
online game, asset, goods, tax, virtual worlds
For starters, many users that play MMORPGs never sell their items from the game in the first place. And very much like the part in the article where they talked about an autograph from a celebrity but never selling it, the government has no right to tax on items where a profit was never made. What next, paying tax on your kids' construction paper art that they made because you could sell it to someone?
Secondly, as a player in WoW, I know that selling items is against the ToS so, how could that even be taxed? There is no way I could sell my items without my account being in danger.
The last part that really gets to me is how Cnet really doesn?t seem to fight or take the side of the consumer and seems to instead push the idea multiple times in the article of why these items should be taxed. Maybe it's just me but, I feel like it?s the beginning of the end...
If such a tax is implemented Blizzard would be on the hook for paying it.
And I say, thank goodness for that. I much prefer to get all the facts and opinions without the influence of author bias. Intelligent readers can come to their own conclusions.
The U.S. government is right to take a look at this issue. Some of the UO players have started businesses selling virtual items. If your business generates profits, then there is taxable income. So long as your business isn't operating illegally, what argument could possibly stop the collection of income tax? You may not see the items as "goods" to be sold, but in that case, the sale is clearly for a "service." The service, is being delivered by the person(s) who play the game to obtain items, and then make them available to you.
Ha, I'll bet the IRS won't see it this way, but it will be funny to see them try to justify one thing, but not the other.
All repair bills for items/weapons/armor should be a straight up deduction to our adjusted gross income(Recompense for all those Molten Core runs)
As games decrease in popularity, we should be able file the depreciation of our assets as a capital loss (I personally will be holding on to my Everquest and Diablo II accounts now, just to cash in on this one).
Guild members, friends, and alternate characters in a game to whom we provide assistance or aid should obviously be dependents.
Itemized deductions should be available for money/time/items spent to accomplish quests or develop in game skills/trades.
Hmmm....maybe H&R Block will set up shops in games to help us do all this....
I play WoW to have fun, with no expectation of making money, and to be with friends.
I will worry when I see it is more than some writers flight of fancy. This is some nutjob, who has less brains then pencils whining because somebody has been able to do what he cannot. The people who sell in game items should be taxed on all transactions they make, end of story.
Should the IRS tax me because I have one kidney, one lung, and one cornea I might potentially garner income from should I choose to sell them in, say, Asia or South America?
Certainly they represents asset growth - I didn't pay a damned thing for them.
From an accounting perspecive its a real nightmare.
That's why people are restricted in their transplants to 'gifting' an organ.
transactions? It seems to me that Monty Python
thought of this long ago when they observed that
taxing "thingy" would make accounting much more
interesting.
The taxable event comes in if/when you sell or trade it (even within the game). Trade the fantastic sword you found for gold or platinum and you now have a "taxable event". Trading is taxable in the real world. The concept the IRS may use is the person you traded the sword to may sell it in the real world. That person may try to deduct the "cost" of purchase from the income on the sword thus coming up with a "net profit". (You can be sure if I sell that chair I made in my garage I'm going to deduct the cost of the materials I used to make it.)
If the person you sold/traded the item to tries to deduct what s/he "paid" you for it, then the IRS is going to want to come after you for your "income".
For those that claim such real world transactions violate terms of service, I believe SONY recently set up a set of servers in either EQ or EQII (don't remember which) in which they actively support real world transactions. SONY is inherently recognizing the real world value of the items. This is not true of all games. However, the IRS could easly claim that a magical item in the virtual world in which SONY actively supports real world value is inherently the same as a similar item in a different virtual world.
My personal opinion is that the IRS should do a simple ruling which encompasses: 1. All transactions within the game(s) are non taxable. 2. All real world transactions for virtual items (receiving real world money for virtual gold/platinum/swords/spells/characters/etc. or receiving a real item [http://car, trip, boat, etc.|http://car, trip, boat, etc.] for a virtual item) are taxable. 3. Deducting the "cost" of the virtual item is not allowed.
This already is the case. If you sell something over ebay, and make over a certian amount, you are taxed. No matter what you sell over ebay. Trying to say the IRS could or should tax a in game transactions for VIRTUAL FICTIONAL items is LUDICROUS.
"Found property. If you find and keep property that does not belong to you that has been lost or abandoned (treasure-trove), it is taxable to you at its fair market value in the first year it is your undisputed possession."
I knew I remembered this from my earliest tax classes - never thought it would come up in practice, however. I've been practicing tax law for 23 years now. Jerry Parshall
P.S. The above can be found at http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch12.html
search on "treasure"
mark d.
It is a business of services. "I'll play the game and get the items. You pay me in real money, and I'll give you the items."
There is no more obvious business structure for a service-based organization. What you are apparently suggesting... is that people should be able to collect legal income for services rendered without paying taxes... because... because the service is online?? Related to software? None of it makes sense.
If I make $30,000 per year providing this type of service, how could I possibly argue to the IRS that I owe them nothing?
I do see the argument against taxing virtual income, but lets be fair... people are making real money by running businesses that provide a service. Such is legally taxable and should remain so.
Sadly, if any REAL money changes hands, the tax man gets involved.
Just be glad that 'Quattlus' are considered game pieces and trading in them or using them is not considered taxable.
and folks tried to have their profits taxed as capital gains rather
than income.
Don't worry, the IRS won't even come near this because income
is taxed at a much higher rate.
Hey, if you're going to tax me on income, you better allow me to deduct expenses that allowed me to generate that income! And that means my game purchase and subscription fees are tax-deductable!
If they're going to go beyond that, and start real-world taxing people that never take their gameplaying out of the game, and who never make real-world income from their fun, well, that'll become a bit more complicated. Will they tax us on what we potentially could have sold something for even if we never do, something akin to what many people fear about exercising stock options due to the AMT?
For Final Fantasy XI, which I played for a short time, World of Warcraft, and any other game title that would be a target of such real-world taxation, it's going to become a burden to keep track of who is taxable by the IRS and who is not. Are all those FFXI players from Japan going to be subject to the IRS? They shouldn't be. If other countries jump on this bandwagon, will I as an American citizen end up paying foreign taxes to any extent? How will the gaming servers keep track of it all? What if I do in-game transactions with a game character belonging to someone in a different country, do international treaties or tarriffs come into play, and do I now have to fill out tax forms related to income from a foreign country? Or will it depend on the location of the game server, and how do I know where my server is located? Will the game company suffer the burden of sending out the new W2-V or 1099-V (for virtual income) forms?
Will it end with MMORPGs, or will it be required to have an internet connection to report any virtual winnings for otherwise "offline" games, even if they are single player and items are not transferrable at all, and must we all buy the printer accessory so it can pring out our IRS tax forms every time we end a gaming session?
the tax laws are different for professionals and for hobbyists. professionals get all those cool tax deductions (and the headaches calculating them, too!); hobbyists don't.
now, just because it's a game doesn't mean it might not be a profession. but it would have to be provable. quite a few years ago a gambler fought the irs and secured the ruling that, because he gambled as his sole livelyhood, he was a professional gambler and therefore allowed to make certain deductions and take advantage of certain self-employed benefits (such as paying BOTH HALVES of social security tax!!!). so, if there is someone who is truly making a living from his online gaming, there might be tax positions he can use to his advantage.
but, as i mention in another post, many (most?) states tax business assets, including intangible assets (think software that you don't even own!) at their current worth. so, someone holding onto a gazillion fantasy dollars that has a real-world worth of $100,000 might be in for a rude awakening. however, the irs wouldn't be his problem; rather his local tax agency would be.
mark d.
If you actually look at the eBay auctions, which is where the real money comes into play. They are not selling their virtual items. They are selling their services. These services are taxable just as any ebay auction is if the money you make is over a certain amount. So, why hasn?t it happened yet? It has, you are just too ignorant about the subject matter to write a decent article.
however, make some real world coin and you'll have to pay taxes on the income. period. no new laws required. it's the law as written. period.
however, the author of the article totally misses the boat on the possibility of taxing these assets. that is, in some states/counties/cities, personal property is taxed. you don't have to sell it. the fact that it has worth is what generates the tax liability. and, if there is a business connection, then even more jurisdictions jump onto the "tax it" bandwagon. suggest that the author visit with a tax accountant and rewrite the article: there's a real tax liability, but he totally missed it.
mark d.
I don't pay property taxes on a rented appartment or house. I don't own it, some other individual or business does and they pay the tax for it. The same thing would apply to the virtual property.
place....
Government justifies taxes by providing services and regulatory
agencies that enforces law and makes commerce possible. (At
least this is what it is SUPPOSE to do).
Government plays no part in fostering an enviroment that
promotes game play in these virtual worlds. Why should it be
allowed to tax?
Only those who have brain washed by the lame ass politicians
will agree that everything and anything should be taxable. These
are the same people that readily lube themselves everytime
they're asked the bend over.
:->
- Virtual Goods are just that
- by January 18, 2006 4:17 AM PST
- The goods, according to all of the game companies Terms of Service I've read recently, belong to the game company not the player. What players are buying or selling in reality is time. The real question then would be, can the government tax a service one player provides for another over the internet when that service is paid for in real USD?
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