Andreessen: PHP succeeding where Java isn't

BURLINGAME, Calif.--The simplicity of scripting language PHP means it will be more popular than Java for building Web-based applications, Internet browser pioneer Marc Andreessen predicted Wednesday in a speech here at the Zend/PHP Conference.

Java enjoyed great success when its inventor, Sun Microsystems, released it in 1995, largely because it was optimized better for programmers than for machines, making software development significantly easier, Andreessen said. Unfortunately, Java has acquired many of the unfavorable characteristics of its predecessors, he added.

"Java is much more programmer-friendly than C or C++, or was for a few years there until they made just as complicated. It's become arguably even harder to learn than C++," Andreessen said. And the mantle of simplicity is being passed on: "PHP is such is an easier environment to develop in than Java."

That opinion might not sit well with Java loyalists--and there are plenty of them among the millions of Java programmers and hundreds of companies involved in the Java Community Process that controls the software's destiny.

But even some influential executives at IBM, which was instrumental in bringing Java to the server and whose WebSphere server software has Java at its core, see the benefits of PHP over Java.

"Simplicity is a huge part of it," said Rod Smith, vice president of IBM's Emerging Internet Technologies Group, describing PHP's appeal to IBM in a meeting with reporters at the conference. "They weren't interested in adding language features to compete with other languages," choosing instead "the simple way, and not the way we've done it in Java, unfortunately."

PHP is an open-source project including an engine to simple programs called PHP scripts and a large library of pre-built scripts. Much of its development is in the hands of a company called Zend, which sells packaged PHP products, programming tools and support.

Wooing programmers is nothing new in the computing industry, where players constantly jockey to establish their products as an essential foundation. Indeed, many credit Microsoft's success to its highly regarded programming tools, which make it easier for developers to write software that run on Windows.

"Java and PHP compete at some level. Get over it."

--Mike Milinkovich,
executive director,
Eclipse

PHP has caught on widely. About 22 million Web sites employ it, and usage is steadily increasing. About 450 programmers have privileges to approve changes to the software. Major companies that employ PHP include Yahoo, Lufthansa and Deutsche Telekom's T-Online.

PHP is more limited in scope than Java, which runs not just on Web servers but also on PCs, mobile phones, chip-enabled debit cards and many other devices. Some parts of the Java technology, though, such as Java Server Pages, handle much the same function.

"Java and PHP compete at some level. Get over it," Mike Milinkovich, executive director of Eclipse, said in a meeting with reporters. Eclipse is an open-source programming-tool project that long supported Java and now also supports PHP. "I'm looking forward to PHP kicking butt in the marketplace," Milinkovich said.

Java and PHP are drawing nearer to one another, though. Oracle, which also sells Java server software and whose database software can be used as a foundation for either Java or PHP, is among those working on an addition to Java to help the two software projects work together. Specifically, Java Specification Request 223 will "help build that bridge between the Java community and the PHP community," said Ken Jacobs, vice president of product strategy at Oracle, in a speech at the conference.

And even Andreessen, who just helped launch a start-up called Ning for sharing photos, reviews or other content online, acknowledges that Java has its place.

"My new company is running a combination of Java and PHP. This is

[bfioca]

PHP 5 feels like Java

Check out the WASP framework for PHP 5.
http://wasp.sourceforge.net

It was designed to help smooth the transition from Java to PHP for
people who are used to heavy Java-centric web programming.

B.S. Mark should know better.

PHP may be simpler than Java to develop very small less-than-
modular web apps, you could say the same about a number of
competing scripting technologies. But this line is pure B.S.:

"It's (Java) become arguably even harder to learn than C++"

Ever heard of garbage collection? How about open-source APIs?

Mark should be ashamed of himself for making such
irresponsible statements.

Marc who?

If they ever assemble a list of one-hit software wonders this guy will probably top the list. So which failed startup in the making is he working on now?

[Johnny Mnemonic]

You remember...

The guy who invented the web browser.

[Sentinel]

No surprise here!

Nope, no surprise at all. Anyone who has two eyes on their face can tell you what this article says. PHP is much simpler than Java. I have tried to learn a little JSP (Java Server Pages) on two different occasions, with little success. Every time I look for tutorials on the internet, they begin talking about java servlets. A servlet that writes "Hello World" in an HTML page can easily have up to 15 lines of code, where is PHP it is done with a simple echo command.
Most java servlets begin like this (or something like this):

import javax.servlet.HTTPServlet;

And a few other lines like that. What's up with that? The second time I tried to learn JSP, I spent hours setting up a "reccomended" development environment using Apache, an environment which was not reccomended for "deployment".

So, trying to give Java another chance, I tried to make stand-alone applications. After all, Java is the only "interpreted" language that includes built-in support for GUI design. So I started to design an interface using a GUI program (netbeans) (I don't think many people actually CODE their interface design in Java). I spent about an hour setting up two buttons, two labels and one button just the way I wanted. It's because of the layout I was using. These "layouts" are the most ridiculious idea I've ever heard. But never fear, the Absolute Layout lets me put my controls where I want. Only problem is, it's part of the netbeans IDE, and without netbeans installed, it doesn't work.

All in all, the difficulty of setting up a Java environment, the clutter of the language (look up how to read data from the console for an example) and all the object-oriented mumbo jumbo will eventually lead Java to its downfall.

[Bob_Barker]

Java is teh s uck

Suprised it didn't die years ago.

Java's problem is operating system on top operating system

My frustration with Java: When I go to a website and my PC freezes solidly for two mins and behave like drunk, that website is using Java. When I go to a website that is instantly alive and flashy, that website is either powered with AJAX, JavaScript, Flash, PHP, etc.
Java is not for the consummer application, it's for dummy geeks. Marc is right.

Here's Hoping PHP Does Not Go the Java Path

Programming languages, when they become popular enough, have a knack for getting more and more features to make up for functionality it sometimes isn't meant to solve, and that eventually results in it becoming more complex, clunky and bloated.

As noted in the article, here's hoping PHP doesn't fall into this trap like Java and just about everything else.

[alenas]

How they can compare PHP with Java at all?

It is sad to see that most people who are praising PHP are either bad programmers or they are not programmers at all. For example PHP does not have built in caching - and both Java and .Net have that thing working pretty well. So how can you get 2000 users working on some PHP web page without caching?
And look at the way most PHP code is being written - plain crap. If you say that PHP is easy language - I can say that it is easy for creating crap code. If you want to make something usefull and reusable then Java or .Net is much better choice.
And I can not believe my ears when I hear people complaining about object oriented programming.
I think it's time to realize that programming is one of the hardest tasks for human brain - so not everyone can be a programmer even if they try hard. So I am not blaming those people who choose PHP - they are just the ones that can not/do not understand how real programming works.

[Mister L]

Pardon me but...

...are you implying that Marc Andreessen can't code? (Well, yes, you both are...silly persons, you)

[aabcdefghij987654321]

Marc grabbing a headline again

Best way to get press when you're not very relevant anymore? Make a controversial statement...

Andreessen is using Java on his own site...why is that? Excuses, excuses... PHP is fine (IMO of course) if you want to do simple things and aren't terribly concerned about throughput. In terms of processing business logic, I'd guess Java is around 10x faster on the same hardware. The impressive thing with Java is the performance achieved with a bytcode interpreted language.

Try Java with a good framework like Wicket, and I'm pretty sure PHP will start to look a lot less appealing.

By the way, one thing to watch out for with PHP is getting locked into MYSQL, since the default database stuff is MYSQL specific. At least Java is nicely database agnostic.

HIH.

Tutorial: ?Comparing PHP, Java, ASP for web application development"

Downloadable here:
http://www.100days.de/download.php?id=i/677.pdf

On the above-mentioned ?Zend PHP Conference & Expo? in San Francisco Gaylord Aulke, CEO and founder of 100 DAYS, gave a substantial tutorial on ?Comparing PHP, Java/J2EE and ASP for web application management?. Aulke is also deeply involved in the PHP-framework-development-initiative. 100 DAYS develops in Java/J2EE as well as in PHP. Another Track given by Gaylord Aulke on the PHP Conf & Expo is a Case together with Boehringer Ingelheim, Top20 Pharma-Producer worldwide and Customer of 100 DAYS concerning PHP2SAP-Integration ( more info: http://zend.kbconferences.com/speakerbios.php#session203 )

Might be helpful for getting some more detailed and objective insight in the topic.

regards from germany,
hb

He's right on the money, of course

PHP is a very pragmatic language, suitable for applications both small and large, simple and complex. It's very approachable, and very easy to get started in. It's designed with the idea of getting an application up and working. Java on the other hand is ideological, and is hampered by that fact. It's not a language designed to be an effective programming solution, but rather a language designed to be ideologically 'pure'.

Java is a liberal arts professor stuck in an ivory tower, crippled into inaction by his own perfection. He is oh-so-much more enlightened about the theory of programming than the 'little people', but he'll never really be anything other than what he is now.

PHP is an aggresive problem solver who drops out of college to start his own company and ends up one of the richest and most influencial men in the world.

[sonofbc]

Average Joe is reason for lack of Java support.

Most people I know do not like Java, JavaScript or Flash. The reason is simple. It is in your face when you just want to quietly surf the web. I have both Java and Flash on a software 'switch' but in most cases I leave them off. If there were built-in on/off buttons on the browsers they might gain a larger following. But if used to ?push? advertising I think they will be shunned.

PHP is nearly enterprise ready

PHP is not quite Enterprise-ready. For this to become reality, there are a few more baby steps to take

1. Since PHP is a simpler language, one must assume the barriers that prevent less experienced developers to write software will be lowered. PHP must be able to safely execute within a sandbox.

2. Provide default automatic filtering of dangerous arguments in the REQUEST variables, such as those that typify SQL injection attacks, and cross-site scripting attacks.

3. Provide unified access to enterprise identity management. No, we don't want developers to roll their own, and neither do we want third party COTS developers to have to develop to a gaggle of APIs.

I've detailed more over my blog "PHP and the Enterprise": http://www.redmountainsw.com/wordpress/archives/php-and-the-enterprise

[stmon99]

doesn't matter

All web apps SUCK.

[nickbyfleet]

I Think..

People should use whatever they are comfortable with, for me that is Java. Both languages have their strengths and weaknesses but there are workarounds for most shortcomings.

nonsense!

How can he compare a cheap script with a language and platform? I did not know why Netscape was self terminated until now.

[finleyd]

PHP not only Java alternative

PHP is not the only alternative to Java, and is probably not the "best" alternative. For example, one should check out the work being done with Ruby (http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/) and "Ruby on Rails" (http://www.rubyonrails.org/).

PHP costs less

I'm surprised nobody has brought up the cost aspect when comparing PHP and Java. I have worked for several small companies deliveriving Web application services type applications and PHP has been the clear winner for these companies in keeping their costs low. Sure, you can start with Java for very little cost but when you start to grow the service and end up getting into databases, applications servers, and the like some pretty hefty licensing fees come into play. Setting up a LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP) server on the other hand is wonderfully free! All you need is the hardware and even there there are tons of hosting and dedicated server companies that can provide you the platform for small change compared to the cost of an Oracle license! As for .NET, with Microsoft nickle and diming you at every turn, I don't even want to go there!

As a programmer, I love programming in Java. But PHP fits the budget of the companies I work for far better. My only real problem with PHP is that I do find, as mentioned before, with PHP so easy to learn there is a lot of crap code. However, a disciplined programmer can make beautiful code in PHP too, if you know what you're doing, especially using OO in PHP5. It makes for a real headache when I hire subcontractors, weeding out the qualified programmers from the taught-my-self PHP web hacker.

The only time I yearn for Java these days is when I am forced to write explicit unit tests (PHP has PHPUnit, just like JUnit!) to test error conditions because there is no compiler to pick-up on my typo errors! Argh. Other than that, I love the way PHP can be used to implement application services over the web for so darn cheap! Practically solutions after all win out over design elegance in my world.

Charlotte