Don't panic: Large Hadron Collider won't spawn voracious black holes
Correction, 11:00 a.m. PDT: This story incorrectly reported the size of the particle accelerator. It has a circumference of 17 miles.
Remember the fear that the Trinity test of the first atomic bomb in 1945 might ignite the atmosphere? The Large Hadron Collider, a massive particle accelerator 17 miles in circumference that will begin operation Wednesday, comes with its own apocalyptic possibility: teensy black holes with gravitational appetites voracious enough to swallow the Earth.
Click image for gallery on the Large Hadron Collider.
(Credit: Maximilien Brice for CERN)But you can breathe easy, because some scientists believe that worry is just as baseless as the A-bomb's flaming atmosphere.
On Tuesday, the American Institute of Physics' news update presented evidence from Steve Giddings of the University of California, Santa Barbara and Michelangelo Mangano of CERN--the European nuclear physics lab where the LHC is housed--concluding there's no threat from little black holes. If such black holes were to be created by a chance cosmic ray, for example, their runaway growth would be most evident from feasting on the super-dense matter of white dwarfs and neutron stars, but there are plenty of those stars that are very old.
Scientists once believed black holes' inescapable gravitational forces meant they'd grow inexorably, but renowned physicist Stephen Hawking later countered with the view that energy can in fact leak away from black holes, causing them to effectively "evaporate."
Stephen Shankland writes about a wide range of technology and products, but has a particular focus on browsers and digital photography. He joined CNET News in 1998 and since then also has covered Google, Yahoo, servers, supercomputing, Linux and open-source software, and science. E-mail Stephen, or follow him on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/stshank.
If one slight calculation if off, if things dont go EXACTLY as planned, the Earth will perish.
Maybe the world wont end tomorrow, but as they increase to higher energies throughout the year I can almost guarantee something will go wrong. Cherish your last remaining moments with your loved ones and Earth....wont be around for long.
No objects produced by the LHC move at the speed of light. It's not possible for a mass-bearing particle to travel at the speed of light. Cosmic rays hit objects on earth with a greater total combined energy than the total energy produced by the LHC, and that's what matters.
It's sad to me that people are so frightened of technology and hate science so much that they will believe the most over-the-top nonsense imaginable, because it confirms their fears and hatred.
The LHC will not produce black holes. End of story.
they know more than you so leave thm to it..
you also need to stop been ignorant against them because they are doing their best to help us all..
its not going to happen so shushh..
if people are reading this, and are really worring you are not making them feel any better you ignorant piece of crap..
now byee for now u looser HAHA HAHA..
Basically a large meteor went over the atmosphere and exploded somewhere in Siberia. Funny thing: at the place of impact a large crater was produced but in its middle the trees were still standing... Nobody were able to explain... And no trace of meteor either...
What if it was one of those mini black-holes produced by the cosmic rays colliding with the atmosphere, and then evaporating in couple milliseconds.
Can those scientists say that it never happened naturaly in cosmic rays?
Ha? Ha?
See you tomorrow...
Ha? Ha?
Well that is kind of true and kind of false.
I have made a great study of physics. I can and will point out that while I don't agree with a lot of Hawking's theories and postulations, one of his biggest contributions, evidence that energy, and therefor mass, can and does escape from the pull of a black hole, invalidating the theory that they're gravitationally based.
Therefor, we don't know how a black hole works, but it's theorized that they form due to extremely high energy levels. If the energy level of the hole drops to a certain point, it can no longer exist as a black hole, and effectively the transdimensional energy transfer collapses. Any mass sucked into a black hole, in theory, is converted to energy - but that sucking isn't gravitationally based, it's energy based by some unknown property. So in theory if a black hole were to be made in the LHC, it would have to have energy or mass of a high enough excitement to feed the black hole - but since the LHC is kept a degree or so above absolute 0, the energy spent drawing in mass or particles would be more than the black hole could provide. Think of a black hole as a negative draw on energy that requires a certain amount of energy to function. Without that certain amount, there is no draw, and there is no black hole.
So, please people if you have no understanding of how the science works, let people that DO do their jobs, and quit impeding progress.
Good job DRBRADD
Lemons => lemonade.
If one slight calculation if off, if things dont go EXACTLY as planned, the Earth will perish.
Maybe the world wont end tomorrow, but as they increase to higher energies throughout the year I can almost guarantee something will go wrong. Cherish your last remaining moments with your loved ones and Earth....wont be around for long.
this is actuall weapons grade S*** you are only looking at one side of the agrumant you are saying these scientist's are ignorant then you have something wrong with you. you have just proved to me that you areinfact ignorant ... any way refering to the "large hadron collider" this is an great opportunity to find out about the universe's orgins and what the world was like ... the chances of their being a black hole is significantly high but what you dont relise is that these black holes are the size of an atom ... they also have the weight of an atom ... these will also decay after a spilt second after being created.
tomany people have belived the media and their corporations and the media has potrayed this experimant as if it was to kill us all just to get their ratings up for a while ... you should never trust the media on what they say as they will always twist the truth to make it sound more intresting.
you need to look at all the evidence before making the exemptions that the scientists working on the experimant are ignorant becuase you will make your self sound ignorant!!!
Ive been really interested in particle physics all my life. I read everything I can about physics and love all this stuff physics is so interesting. I am hopeful that this machine doesn't create a black hole that will swallow earth. I think that it is probably 95% or more chance that it WONT, but i still agree that Hawking Radiation (though a very likely theory (it makes sense to me)) is just a theory. We do not know that it is truth. The way things change so much in physics i am hopeful that this machine does reveal secrets about the Higgs bosons, but I have to say I am very interested in someone speculating this....
Lets say Hawking Radiation is wrong (not relying on this theory) With our last data and information on black holes, what would happen if this device generated a small black hole? Would it grow to start consuming matter around it?
Now my final opinion is turn the machine on and run test. All I would like to point out is anyone that says "they know for sure that this wont cause a black hole that is dangerous" is not telling the truth.
Firstly, two beams colliding at near light speed won't see their relative speeds greater than the speed of light, it's the collision energy that's most relevant here not just velocities themselves. Particles of even higher energies are continually colliding and near missing matter on earth as it is so I'm comfortable with this whole hole thing :) The size, stability (event horizon etc) of these black holes won't be comparable to one of stellar magnitude, combined with the immediate environment in which they'll find themselves upon creation (if indeed we believe they will be created) will give rise to very different scenarios from the stereotypical stellar versions we are 'familiar' with.
Secondly, you seem to believe the black hole creation theory that your 'ignorant' scientists came up with in the first place but are unwilling to accept their reassurances of safety based on the same scientific principles?
Granted, if the beams escape due to magnet failure etc. I'd rather not be near the Franco-Swiss border but it can only bore a few tens of meters through (any) material should it be shed in an uncontrolled manner :)
Thirdly the statement "Particles that are BOTH going the speed of light and collide does NOT happen naturally." is only true in the sense that collision in this context assumes mass which of course cannot travel at the speed of light naturally or (as we believe) otherwise - only NEAR the speed of light. The offending particles at CERN will not travel at the speed of light. Only near that speed.
COSMIC RAYS DO TRAVEL AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT AND THE EARTH IS FKN MOVING. MORON
Have a nice day.
Stephen Hawking has an IQ of 280. Most people don't get over 100.
What I'm trying to say is... Don't comment on something that you haven't even bothered
trying to look into, you moron.
What's your IQ, somewhere around the 20's?
I don't pretend to be an expert on this subject (however, i do know enough to be able to laugh hysterically at you) but this means that i try not to have too strong an opinion and certainly don't push it on to people who don't know any better.
You sir, are a fool, and your uninformed tabloid views are dangerous to the general public who rely on 'people in the know' to tell them certain things that they don't have the inclination to go out and learn themselves.
I'd like to see a more rigorous proof of his assertions, like "If one slight calculation is off, ... the Earth will perish", or what he means is "if one calculation is slightly off, the Earth will perish". Either way, I'd like to see a proof so. Unfortunately, it's the ignorant scientists who will have to review this.
Oh, he can "almost guarantee" something will go wrong. Why not go to a bookmaker in Vegas? Put your money where your mouth is.
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL.LOL LOL ROFLMAO LOL LOL LOL 0OLOL
Ohhhhhh mercy.
No seriouslly brad, we all value you as a human being and your contributions are important.
And hey, if it does create a miniature black hole, that just another theory going into effect. Charles Darwin's natural selection.
To make it more clear: A black hole isn't inherently dangerous!
about your statement "Particles that are BOTH going the speed of light and collide does NOT happen naturally" this is completely wrong this happend all the time in the deep space.
i will tell you something so you can sleep good tonight: did you read the part where it says that some people believe in 1945 the A bomb might ignite the atmosphere? well this was actually true, some people even sold all their properties because they believe that it will the end of the world, why USA continue the project? even when it was only THEORY work behind? because 98% of the scientists of the time where sure that will not happend with an A Bomb, because the temperature required for such event is not even close for an A Bomb to reach, where the got this data? in previous theory.
is there a risk is this experiment? YES of course like any other one but stadisticaly is minimal.
so don't worry we will have world for a long, long time, until we kill ourselfs or the sun destroys the earth in about 7.6 billion years so you have plenty of time to cherish with your loved ones.
However, we are also not qualified to make that judgement call either. Many of these scientists have devoted their entire lives to this project and probably know far more about quantum physics than the average techie or blogger.
Personally, this could lead to three scenarios (keep in mind the over exaggerations). The first would be just a debunk experiment and a waste of 3.2 billion dollars (highly unlikely). The second would be possibly one of the greatest discoveries and advancements of all time, quite possibly leading to a new age and stage of evolution for man, almost like Star Trek. The third scenario would be the possible annihilation of the human rase where ironically, our curiosity got the better of us, and man's possible greatest achivement lead to his downfall.
Wednesday will reveal the answer
First of all, "objects" don't move at the speed of light. According to THEORY, it would take infinite energy to boost a particle to reach lightspeed. The large hadron collider will accelerate particles up to as close to lightspeed as they can, but they'll never reach that actual velocity. It would be more correct to say that the LHC will accelerate the particles up to relativistic speeds.
Second of all, cosmic rays have head-on collisions with particles moving at relativistic speeds in nature all the time, including in the neighborhood of our planet.
Third, yeah, Hawking Radiation is a theory. So is electron tunneling. Yet we use the theory of electron tunneling every single day in microcircuits like THE COMPUTER DrBradD USED TO POST THIS ON! Hawking Radiation uses the same process as electron tunneling. So how much more PROOF do you really need? Quantum black holes are a theory too. And the creation of quantum black holes and the process of Hawking radiation are linked to each other. You can't logically dispute the existance of one without disputing the existance of the other.
Fourth. What would be the velocity of the quantum black hole, assuming one was produced, relative to the Earth and the solar system? The speed of light is roughly 186,000 miles per second. The diameter of the Earth is 7,926 miles. Unless the particles are the same mass and exactly opposite velocities, they are going to impart motion to any black hole they create. Since they are moving at relativistic velocities, it is reasonable to assume, by the law of conservation of momentum, that the black hole will have a resultant of relativistic speed. Escape velocity for Earth is about 7 miles per second; or about 4 one-thousandths of a percent of the speed of light. Escape velocity for the solar system is about 1030 mps; about a half a percent the speed of light. In other words, even if a quantum black hole were created, it would shoot right off the planet before absorbing even one or two atoms, and would in fact, leave our solar system.
I HATE when people who obviously slept through high school science classes, or skipped them all together, try to come up with objections to science. Ignorance can be cured with education, stupid is just plain permanent.
So this means that ALL particles moving at the speed of light only travel one direction? Are there not trillions and trillions of particles moving at the speed of light in all directions?
It's for science.
But maybe it does make some money in the future with tech innovations with discoveries made on the LHC
Let's see, first he says that scientists are ignorant, but he's got the answers. (I wonder if he views dentists the same way and does his own root canals.) We've got the creationists' favorite misuse of a word with multiple definitions, "it's only a theory". (By the same measurement, canola is a felony.) Plus we have ignorance of relativity, wherein he postulates that two things moving at each other near the speed of light are going to hit double-hard. Relativity, of course, means that the relative speed of any two objects cannot exceed the speed of light; adding together impact speeds doesn't work when you add in the Lorenz contraction. Plus you have ignorance of what a black hole is and what gravity is. Gravity is a function of mass, and a wee tiny thing has wee tiny mass (and thus gravitational pull) even if it's crunched down so small that it forms a wee wee tiny black hole. Such black holes are extremely unstable and thus radiate away in a microjiffy or so. But hey, that really big thing in the center of the galaxy is a black hole, and it's scary, so all black holes must be equally scary, right?
I don't think the world will perish because of some slight miscalculation. There's hardly enough information to make a reasonable calculation. This goes back to the above. Will the world perish because someone switched on the LHC? I don't know for the same reason. No one really does know, or if someone does, he or she is keeping very quiet.
The now ubiquitous Hawking Radiation argument I find a bit weak. This is a new theory in comparison to the first. Dr. Hawking is undoubtedly a very clever man, but his first view of the radiation named after him was that it did not exist. The fact is, we do not know whether Hawking radiation exists. It's never been observed even in large black holes. So, it is just a theory and not a panacea.
There's a very big difference between upper-atmosphere hadron collision and those produced in the LHC. As far as I'm aware, no one still uses upper-atmosphere collisions as a suitably comforting analogy.
As for the speed of light/relativity comment, I'm not sure what "double-hard" means in this context. First, the particles in question cannot even travel at the speed of light, much less faster than light. They can only nearly do so. Nevertheless, mass increases as velocity approaches the speed of light in accordance with the very same fairly-well-proven theory that the speed of light is a cosmic limit. "Hard" implies mass and velocity and therefore kinetic energy and momentum to me in this scenario, so while "double-hard" isn't entirely accurate, there is a difference in the mass of the particles and the vector component of velocity: In the upper atmosphere, it's thought statistically very unlikely, or negligible, that two particles would collide "head-on". The LHC tries to accomplish just that. The difference now is that rather than producing a black hole careening off at nearly the speed of light, LHC black holes (if indeed the black holes are created either in the atmosphere or the LHC), is that an LHC black hole should be comparatively slow by everyone's calculations.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that an enormous black hole is going to be created in the LHC. The issue is that a slow, small black hole may be created and able to capture or consume a nearby particle, thereby increasing its own "size". If Hawking Radiation doesn't save us, that could be quite a problem.
Of course something will go wrong eventually if given enough time. Will that something result in the destruction of the Earth? Who knows? No one. That's the real problem and partly why there are so many forum discussions on the topic.
As for the "breathe easy, because some scientists believe" attempt to comfort with which the article started, I just don't find that especially comforting. Some scientists believe lots of different things, including the contradictory argument to varying degree that black holes will be created and they will consume the planet. That's why we have the entire issue of the risk of the LHC before courts now at the instigation of "some other scientists".
I breathe easy because I don't know what will happen. Nevertheless, I though it better to post this now just in case, for whatever reason, I can't do so later...
For those who say otherwise, please, don't dare breathe... you'll increase your risk of cancer.
it's not meant to make $
If it was that dangerous the superpowers would be down there now stopping it. Chill out and have a good decade.
Scientist: "Ohhh look, a tiny black hole. Isn't it a little cuite?"
*black hole giggles and grins, then proceeds to eat the Scientist's face.*
everyone be on the look out for scientist walking around with dark spots of infinte mass where their faces should have been! CLICK THIS LINK TO SEE WHAT THEY MIGHT LOOK LIKE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnJtN33zTrw&feature=related
It's not meant to make $ is meant to make ?. This is an european project so all the money will go to them...Our money are 'safe' in Iraq and Afganistan ;)
Also stop DMHO !!!
This is serious business folks!!!!!
Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) is a colorless and odorless chemical compound, also referred to by some as Dihydrogen Oxide, Hydrogen Hydroxide, Hydronium Hydroxide, or simply Hydric acid. Its basis is the unstable radical Hydroxide, the components of which are found in a number of caustic, explosive and poisonous compounds such as Sulfuric Acid, Nitroglycerine and Ethyl Alcohol.
What are some of the dangers associated with DHMO?
Each year, Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are: Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
*Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
*Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
*DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
*Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
*Contributes to soil erosion.
*Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
*Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
*Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
*Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
*Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere.
*Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.
Please read more:
DHMO facts (http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html)
http://www.dhmo.org/
putting the world at risk just for this
it's stupid
it really is the most stupidest thing i've ever heard
these are scientists for heavens sake
as if anyone really wants this experiment to happen
there's no words to describe it except for wreckless and stupid
like others in this list of comments, you are responding to the hype without having read any details.
Here's a general rule for you: if something is important - don't rely on Cnet, or any other media that sells headlines, to get the real information.
The purpose of the LHC is not specifically to create black holes. That is not what they are attempting. For decades now, scientists have been smashing particles into one another to break them apart - so see what they are made of. This is a continuation of that research, and uses higher energy.
However, as another commenter (with a brain) has said - the total energy involved is less than some cosmic ray strikes on the earth or it's atmosphere - and we are still here.
Our satellites, and the probes we have sent to meteors, asteroids and other planets in the solar system are constantly bombarded by cosmic rays - so we have an understanding of them. However, measuring the impact on individual sub-atomic particles requires a lab environment where we can control which particles are involved and how much energy they have - and then have them collide in an area swarming with measuring equipment. Hence the LHC.
So don't sweat it.
High Energy Physics is the domain of physicists - and most non-physicists only have the faintest notion of the theories involved and the math & prior research that support them. That is why you need to read more than this article before you can contribute in a meaningful way to any debate on the subject - and this web page isn't a debate - it's more like a bunch of drunks at a party all trying to speak louder than everyone else.
I hope you're talking about yourself. Learn proper English, then tell us the world is going to end. If there was a large possibility for something truly dangerous to happen, the UN would have stepped in and stopped it. I'm sure destroying the Earth is against the Geneva Convention.
man has created black holes before in more dangerous experiments, but they were so small and insignificant that one lasted 1 million billion billionths of a second, thats not very long
if this experiment does create black holes im guessing these will last the same, if there was a big problem why is there no wide spread panic? becuase people dont want every one on mankind to panic over nothing, the world would end anyway becuase we as humans would think we were gunna die so whats the point. if there was really a major risk they would say so atleast everyone knew
if you think your gunna die then so be it but you will be laughing on thursday
Especially if there was a chance nothing would happen.
It's called "Need to know". And they would try to keep order even if there was a chance it was suicide.
But. Like I said.
Better not to live in fear of possibiliies and move forward.
The Estimated 1st collision date is October 21st, 2008.. then we will have to worry if it will be safe or horribly wrong..
Personally I wish it not to happen but we will see on this day for sure, unless the date is advanced or postponed.
which equals out to be 11.5 days
-Jonnyrocked
Wouldn't it be hillarious if all this turned out to be nothing and NOTHING at all happend when they flipped it on?
But seriously, we ARE unsure as to what it will do. Assurances based off of theoretical models are little more than trusting that "God" will save us in the end if you think about it, though admittingly less "safe".
But it's no reason to go off screaming into the hills about the end of the world. And if the world is destroyed tomorrow. Sounds to me like the universe's ultimate Darwin Award for a race. =)
When I graduated college, a couple of decades back, we were being told we were headed into a new ice age. Today we are being told we're going to die from global warming.
If this "infernal machine" doesn't end the world, it won't be because of any scientist "knowing" what was going to happen.
The only way they are ever sure of anything is by looking back at results - they same as the rest of us.
Global Warming = melting Arctic glaciers = more uniform temperatures and salinity in the North Atlantic = damage to the "engine" that drives the gulf stream = cessation of warm water from the Equator brought north = Ice Age.
Its not just one scientist saying its safe, its the most respected scientists who have only done good with the use of science, people need to stop scare mongering and thinking that this is the end.
Countries have countless amounts of nucular warheads and chemical weapons that could kill us all no problem, and there has always been scare mongering about this, but the same will happen here, nothing will happen tomorrow because the mass of the hadron is too small to kill a fu***** planet!
if it creates a black hole, as they say! it will be small. People need to have faith in science, and stop pathetic scare mongering for no reason.
Have FAITH in science.
Isn't like having FAITH howlee scripturs..
I give faith when faith is earned and not to some person trying to tell me they know the possibly unknowable. A healthy amount of skepticism is good for EVERY thing. Not just what suites you.
No matter what community puts stock in what they say.
P.s.: Hee hee you used the f word. Woo wooo. =)
Also, don't act like you know what kind a power a black hole has. Just because the black hole will be "small" doesn't mean Jack. Obviously you don't realize what a black hole is or what one is capable of doing.
No offense, but you are arguing about something you are clueless about. At least give names of these so-called "responsible" scientists....and back up what you are saying....maybe site something....because i am CERTAINLY not going to take YOUR word, Diamondfootprint!
Give me a break!
Also odds of 10^-40 are very minute, but lets say we accelerate these particles as often as 10^40 times??? It seems like the possibility is much more likely! WHY are we risking the lives of EVERYONE? So we can answer some questions scientists are CURIOUS about??? Maybe it would be worthwhile if it weren't in vein. It pisses me off that WE weren't asked if we even wanted scientists to do this.
By the way, i, myself, am a science graduate, so i'm not completely clueless.
Common misconception. Even the President gets it wrong, so don't feel too bad.
Basically a large meteor went over the atmosphere and exploded somewhere in Siberia. Funny thing: at the place of impact a large crater was produced but in its middle the trees were still standing... Nobody were able to explain... And no trace of meteor either...
What if it was one of those mini black-holes produced by the cosmic rays colliding with the atmosphere, and then evaporating in couple milliseconds.
Can those scientists say that it never happened naturaly in cosmic rays?
Ha? Ha?
See you tomorrow...
So I'm pretty sure that it was a particle weapon from a UFO that hit TUNGUSKA.
Bigfoot called it down 'cause he was being chased by the UFOs not the good ones (GRAYS) but the bad ones (SAURIANS) so he called an airstrike by the GRAYS who are good, or at least they don't want to totally wipe humanity out like the SAURIANS who love to live underground JUST LIKE THE LARGE HADRON COLLIDER!!!!
Now you SEE the UFO Saurians are behind it all! They have secret tunnels that connect the Large Hadron Collider to their global network of tunnels. That is how they will direct the black hole to eat through the earth and what is on the opposite side of the globe from CERN? Washington DC!!!
Or maybe, the scientists who have devoted their lives to the study of physics know something after all, and the Tunguska event was really just a meteor burning out... at any rate a large meteor impact would be more devastating to the planet than a small black hole created by the LHC.
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by VargheseLHC
September 9, 2008 12:32 PM PDT
- Long time ago they said that Neil Armstrong landed on Moon and now some of them are all set to disprove the same. Right from history we see someone coming up with a theory and someone disproving it. However, there is one undefiable fact and this fact is that all these events happen and keeps happening unto a realisation of an Ultimate Truth - God. So guys, there is nothing to worry and wish you a Good sleep.
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by shroom567
September 9, 2008 2:20 PM PDT
- u did not just bring god into a scientific debate! what the duck!
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by Slayers_Slax
September 10, 2008 7:42 AM PDT
- Christians do not belong in a scientific debate.
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by JesusSucks_and_well
September 10, 2008 10:03 PM PDT
- Sheesh! you believe in the bible AND faked moon landings. Man, I've a bridge that's a perfect fit for you. Do you know what a moron is? The guy who sleeps in your pyjamas!
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by Kibblez
October 1, 2008 12:03 PM PDT
- It wasn't that long ago - 1969. And Armstrong DID land on the moon...
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Showing 1 of 9 pages (346 Comments)god is not an ultimate truth, have you seen him/her/pasta monster
There is no evidence that 'God' exists, nor will there ever be any.
If you believe in a single word in the bible, you have less intelligence
than an infant.