Don't panic: Large Hadron Collider won't spawn voracious black holes
Correction, 11:00 a.m. PDT: This story incorrectly reported the size of the particle accelerator. It has a circumference of 17 miles.
Remember the fear that the Trinity test of the first atomic bomb in 1945 might ignite the atmosphere? The Large Hadron Collider, a massive particle accelerator 17 miles in circumference that will begin operation Wednesday, comes with its own apocalyptic possibility: teensy black holes with gravitational appetites voracious enough to swallow the Earth.
Click image for gallery on the Large Hadron Collider.
(Credit: Maximilien Brice for CERN)But you can breathe easy, because some scientists believe that worry is just as baseless as the A-bomb's flaming atmosphere.
On Tuesday, the American Institute of Physics' news update presented evidence from Steve Giddings of the University of California, Santa Barbara and Michelangelo Mangano of CERN--the European nuclear physics lab where the LHC is housed--concluding there's no threat from little black holes. If such black holes were to be created by a chance cosmic ray, for example, their runaway growth would be most evident from feasting on the super-dense matter of white dwarfs and neutron stars, but there are plenty of those stars that are very old.
Scientists once believed black holes' inescapable gravitational forces meant they'd grow inexorably, but renowned physicist Stephen Hawking later countered with the view that energy can in fact leak away from black holes, causing them to effectively "evaporate."
Stephen Shankland writes about a wide range of technology and products, but has a particular focus on browsers and digital photography. He joined CNET News in 1998 and since then also has covered Google, Yahoo, servers, supercomputing, Linux and open-source software, and science. E-mail Stephen, or follow him on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/stshank. 
If one slight calculation if off, if things dont go EXACTLY as planned, the Earth will perish.
Maybe the world wont end tomorrow, but as they increase to higher energies throughout the year I can almost guarantee something will go wrong. Cherish your last remaining moments with your loved ones and Earth....wont be around for long.
No objects produced by the LHC move at the speed of light. It's not possible for a mass-bearing particle to travel at the speed of light. Cosmic rays hit objects on earth with a greater total combined energy than the total energy produced by the LHC, and that's what matters.
It's sad to me that people are so frightened of technology and hate science so much that they will believe the most over-the-top nonsense imaginable, because it confirms their fears and hatred.
The LHC will not produce black holes. End of story.
they know more than you so leave thm to it..
you also need to stop been ignorant against them because they are doing their best to help us all..
its not going to happen so shushh..
if people are reading this, and are really worring you are not making them feel any better you ignorant piece of crap..
now byee for now u looser HAHA HAHA..
Basically a large meteor went over the atmosphere and exploded somewhere in Siberia. Funny thing: at the place of impact a large crater was produced but in its middle the trees were still standing... Nobody were able to explain... And no trace of meteor either...
What if it was one of those mini black-holes produced by the cosmic rays colliding with the atmosphere, and then evaporating in couple milliseconds.
Can those scientists say that it never happened naturaly in cosmic rays?
Ha? Ha?
See you tomorrow...
Ha? Ha?
Well that is kind of true and kind of false.
I have made a great study of physics. I can and will point out that while I don't agree with a lot of Hawking's theories and postulations, one of his biggest contributions, evidence that energy, and therefor mass, can and does escape from the pull of a black hole, invalidating the theory that they're gravitationally based.
Therefor, we don't know how a black hole works, but it's theorized that they form due to extremely high energy levels. If the energy level of the hole drops to a certain point, it can no longer exist as a black hole, and effectively the transdimensional energy transfer collapses. Any mass sucked into a black hole, in theory, is converted to energy - but that sucking isn't gravitationally based, it's energy based by some unknown property. So in theory if a black hole were to be made in the LHC, it would have to have energy or mass of a high enough excitement to feed the black hole - but since the LHC is kept a degree or so above absolute 0, the energy spent drawing in mass or particles would be more than the black hole could provide. Think of a black hole as a negative draw on energy that requires a certain amount of energy to function. Without that certain amount, there is no draw, and there is no black hole.
So, please people if you have no understanding of how the science works, let people that DO do their jobs, and quit impeding progress.
Good job DRBRADD
Lemons => lemonade.
It's for science.
But maybe it does make some money in the future with tech innovations with discoveries made on the LHC
Let's see, first he says that scientists are ignorant, but he's got the answers. (I wonder if he views dentists the same way and does his own root canals.) We've got the creationists' favorite misuse of a word with multiple definitions, "it's only a theory". (By the same measurement, canola is a felony.) Plus we have ignorance of relativity, wherein he postulates that two things moving at each other near the speed of light are going to hit double-hard. Relativity, of course, means that the relative speed of any two objects cannot exceed the speed of light; adding together impact speeds doesn't work when you add in the Lorenz contraction. Plus you have ignorance of what a black hole is and what gravity is. Gravity is a function of mass, and a wee tiny thing has wee tiny mass (and thus gravitational pull) even if it's crunched down so small that it forms a wee wee tiny black hole. Such black holes are extremely unstable and thus radiate away in a microjiffy or so. But hey, that really big thing in the center of the galaxy is a black hole, and it's scary, so all black holes must be equally scary, right?
I don't think the world will perish because of some slight miscalculation. There's hardly enough information to make a reasonable calculation. This goes back to the above. Will the world perish because someone switched on the LHC? I don't know for the same reason. No one really does know, or if someone does, he or she is keeping very quiet.
The now ubiquitous Hawking Radiation argument I find a bit weak. This is a new theory in comparison to the first. Dr. Hawking is undoubtedly a very clever man, but his first view of the radiation named after him was that it did not exist. The fact is, we do not know whether Hawking radiation exists. It's never been observed even in large black holes. So, it is just a theory and not a panacea.
There's a very big difference between upper-atmosphere hadron collision and those produced in the LHC. As far as I'm aware, no one still uses upper-atmosphere collisions as a suitably comforting analogy.
As for the speed of light/relativity comment, I'm not sure what "double-hard" means in this context. First, the particles in question cannot even travel at the speed of light, much less faster than light. They can only nearly do so. Nevertheless, mass increases as velocity approaches the speed of light in accordance with the very same fairly-well-proven theory that the speed of light is a cosmic limit. "Hard" implies mass and velocity and therefore kinetic energy and momentum to me in this scenario, so while "double-hard" isn't entirely accurate, there is a difference in the mass of the particles and the vector component of velocity: In the upper atmosphere, it's thought statistically very unlikely, or negligible, that two particles would collide "head-on". The LHC tries to accomplish just that. The difference now is that rather than producing a black hole careening off at nearly the speed of light, LHC black holes (if indeed the black holes are created either in the atmosphere or the LHC), is that an LHC black hole should be comparatively slow by everyone's calculations.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that an enormous black hole is going to be created in the LHC. The issue is that a slow, small black hole may be created and able to capture or consume a nearby particle, thereby increasing its own "size". If Hawking Radiation doesn't save us, that could be quite a problem.
Of course something will go wrong eventually if given enough time. Will that something result in the destruction of the Earth? Who knows? No one. That's the real problem and partly why there are so many forum discussions on the topic.
As for the "breathe easy, because some scientists believe" attempt to comfort with which the article started, I just don't find that especially comforting. Some scientists believe lots of different things, including the contradictory argument to varying degree that black holes will be created and they will consume the planet. That's why we have the entire issue of the risk of the LHC before courts now at the instigation of "some other scientists".
I breathe easy because I don't know what will happen. Nevertheless, I though it better to post this now just in case, for whatever reason, I can't do so later...
For those who say otherwise, please, don't dare breathe... you'll increase your risk of cancer.
it's not meant to make $
If it was that dangerous the superpowers would be down there now stopping it. Chill out and have a good decade.
Scientist: "Ohhh look, a tiny black hole. Isn't it a little cuite?"
*black hole giggles and grins, then proceeds to eat the Scientist's face.*
everyone be on the look out for scientist walking around with dark spots of infinte mass where their faces should have been! CLICK THIS LINK TO SEE WHAT THEY MIGHT LOOK LIKE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnJtN33zTrw&feature=related
It's not meant to make $ is meant to make ?. This is an european project so all the money will go to them...Our money are 'safe' in Iraq and Afganistan ;)
Also stop DMHO !!!
This is serious business folks!!!!!
Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) is a colorless and odorless chemical compound, also referred to by some as Dihydrogen Oxide, Hydrogen Hydroxide, Hydronium Hydroxide, or simply Hydric acid. Its basis is the unstable radical Hydroxide, the components of which are found in a number of caustic, explosive and poisonous compounds such as Sulfuric Acid, Nitroglycerine and Ethyl Alcohol.
What are some of the dangers associated with DHMO?
Each year, Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are: Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
*Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
*Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
*DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
*Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
*Contributes to soil erosion.
*Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
*Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
*Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
*Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
*Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere.
*Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.
Please read more:
DHMO facts (http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html)
http://www.dhmo.org/
putting the world at risk just for this
it's stupid
it really is the most stupidest thing i've ever heard
these are scientists for heavens sake
as if anyone really wants this experiment to happen
there's no words to describe it except for wreckless and stupid
like others in this list of comments, you are responding to the hype without having read any details.
Here's a general rule for you: if something is important - don't rely on Cnet, or any other media that sells headlines, to get the real information.
The purpose of the LHC is not specifically to create black holes. That is not what they are attempting. For decades now, scientists have been smashing particles into one another to break them apart - so see what they are made of. This is a continuation of that research, and uses higher energy.
However, as another commenter (with a brain) has said - the total energy involved is less than some cosmic ray strikes on the earth or it's atmosphere - and we are still here.
Our satellites, and the probes we have sent to meteors, asteroids and other planets in the solar system are constantly bombarded by cosmic rays - so we have an understanding of them. However, measuring the impact on individual sub-atomic particles requires a lab environment where we can control which particles are involved and how much energy they have - and then have them collide in an area swarming with measuring equipment. Hence the LHC.
So don't sweat it.
High Energy Physics is the domain of physicists - and most non-physicists only have the faintest notion of the theories involved and the math & prior research that support them. That is why you need to read more than this article before you can contribute in a meaningful way to any debate on the subject - and this web page isn't a debate - it's more like a bunch of drunks at a party all trying to speak louder than everyone else.
I hope you're talking about yourself. Learn proper English, then tell us the world is going to end. If there was a large possibility for something truly dangerous to happen, the UN would have stepped in and stopped it. I'm sure destroying the Earth is against the Geneva Convention.
man has created black holes before in more dangerous experiments, but they were so small and insignificant that one lasted 1 million billion billionths of a second, thats not very long
if this experiment does create black holes im guessing these will last the same, if there was a big problem why is there no wide spread panic? becuase people dont want every one on mankind to panic over nothing, the world would end anyway becuase we as humans would think we were gunna die so whats the point. if there was really a major risk they would say so atleast everyone knew
if you think your gunna die then so be it but you will be laughing on thursday
Especially if there was a chance nothing would happen.
It's called "Need to know". And they would try to keep order even if there was a chance it was suicide.
But. Like I said.
Better not to live in fear of possibiliies and move forward.
The Estimated 1st collision date is October 21st, 2008.. then we will have to worry if it will be safe or horribly wrong..
Personally I wish it not to happen but we will see on this day for sure, unless the date is advanced or postponed.
which equals out to be 11.5 days
-Jonnyrocked
Wouldn't it be hillarious if all this turned out to be nothing and NOTHING at all happend when they flipped it on?
But seriously, we ARE unsure as to what it will do. Assurances based off of theoretical models are little more than trusting that "God" will save us in the end if you think about it, though admittingly less "safe".
But it's no reason to go off screaming into the hills about the end of the world. And if the world is destroyed tomorrow. Sounds to me like the universe's ultimate Darwin Award for a race. =)
When I graduated college, a couple of decades back, we were being told we were headed into a new ice age. Today we are being told we're going to die from global warming.
If this "infernal machine" doesn't end the world, it won't be because of any scientist "knowing" what was going to happen.
The only way they are ever sure of anything is by looking back at results - they same as the rest of us.
Global Warming = melting Arctic glaciers = more uniform temperatures and salinity in the North Atlantic = damage to the "engine" that drives the gulf stream = cessation of warm water from the Equator brought north = Ice Age.
Its not just one scientist saying its safe, its the most respected scientists who have only done good with the use of science, people need to stop scare mongering and thinking that this is the end.
Countries have countless amounts of nucular warheads and chemical weapons that could kill us all no problem, and there has always been scare mongering about this, but the same will happen here, nothing will happen tomorrow because the mass of the hadron is too small to kill a fu***** planet!
if it creates a black hole, as they say! it will be small. People need to have faith in science, and stop pathetic scare mongering for no reason.
Have FAITH in science.
Isn't like having FAITH howlee scripturs..
I give faith when faith is earned and not to some person trying to tell me they know the possibly unknowable. A healthy amount of skepticism is good for EVERY thing. Not just what suites you.
No matter what community puts stock in what they say.
P.s.: Hee hee you used the f word. Woo wooo. =)
Also, don't act like you know what kind a power a black hole has. Just because the black hole will be "small" doesn't mean Jack. Obviously you don't realize what a black hole is or what one is capable of doing.
No offense, but you are arguing about something you are clueless about. At least give names of these so-called "responsible" scientists....and back up what you are saying....maybe site something....because i am CERTAINLY not going to take YOUR word, Diamondfootprint!
Give me a break!
Also odds of 10^-40 are very minute, but lets say we accelerate these particles as often as 10^40 times??? It seems like the possibility is much more likely! WHY are we risking the lives of EVERYONE? So we can answer some questions scientists are CURIOUS about??? Maybe it would be worthwhile if it weren't in vein. It pisses me off that WE weren't asked if we even wanted scientists to do this.
By the way, i, myself, am a science graduate, so i'm not completely clueless.
Common misconception. Even the President gets it wrong, so don't feel too bad.
Basically a large meteor went over the atmosphere and exploded somewhere in Siberia. Funny thing: at the place of impact a large crater was produced but in its middle the trees were still standing... Nobody were able to explain... And no trace of meteor either...
What if it was one of those mini black-holes produced by the cosmic rays colliding with the atmosphere, and then evaporating in couple milliseconds.
Can those scientists say that it never happened naturaly in cosmic rays?
Ha? Ha?
See you tomorrow...
So I'm pretty sure that it was a particle weapon from a UFO that hit TUNGUSKA.
Bigfoot called it down 'cause he was being chased by the UFOs not the good ones (GRAYS) but the bad ones (SAURIANS) so he called an airstrike by the GRAYS who are good, or at least they don't want to totally wipe humanity out like the SAURIANS who love to live underground JUST LIKE THE LARGE HADRON COLLIDER!!!!
Now you SEE the UFO Saurians are behind it all! They have secret tunnels that connect the Large Hadron Collider to their global network of tunnels. That is how they will direct the black hole to eat through the earth and what is on the opposite side of the globe from CERN? Washington DC!!!
Or maybe, the scientists who have devoted their lives to the study of physics know something after all, and the Tunguska event was really just a meteor burning out... at any rate a large meteor impact would be more devastating to the planet than a small black hole created by the LHC.
- by VargheseLHC September 9, 2008 12:32 PM PDT
- Long time ago they said that Neil Armstrong landed on Moon and now some of them are all set to disprove the same. Right from history we see someone coming up with a theory and someone disproving it. However, there is one undefiable fact and this fact is that all these events happen and keeps happening unto a realisation of an Ultimate Truth - God. So guys, there is nothing to worry and wish you a Good sleep.
- Like this Reply to this comment
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- by shroom567 September 9, 2008 2:20 PM PDT
- u did not just bring god into a scientific debate! what the duck!
- Like this
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- by Slayers_Slax September 10, 2008 7:42 AM PDT
- Christians do not belong in a scientific debate.
- Like this
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- by JesusSucks_and_well September 10, 2008 10:03 PM PDT
- Sheesh! you believe in the bible AND faked moon landings. Man, I've a bridge that's a perfect fit for you. Do you know what a moron is? The guy who sleeps in your pyjamas!
- Like this
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- by Kibblez October 1, 2008 12:03 PM PDT
- It wasn't that long ago - 1969. And Armstrong DID land on the moon...
- Like this
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Showing 1 of 9 pages (350 Comments)god is not an ultimate truth, have you seen him/her/pasta monster
There is no evidence that 'God' exists, nor will there ever be any.
If you believe in a single word in the bible, you have less intelligence
than an infant.