Perspective: Why does PC support stink? Ask Symantec

Let me share one of my profession's dirty little secrets.

The folks in the computer press can always zip to the front of the queue when their PCs go haywire. All they need do is place a call to an industry contact, and a savvy technician will miraculously emerge to save the day.

It's an easy out--not to mention plainly unfair--but don't you wish you were so privileged? Because the reality is that service still stinks. Nearly three decades into the PC revolution, the computer industry's post-sale support remains more honored in the breach than in the observance.

All this is by way of introduction to my go-around with Symantec during Sunday night's Academy Awards ceremony. After rebuilding

You might assume a company that makes antivirus software would not gouge paying customers.

my wife's hard drive, yours truly attempted to load Norton Antivirus 2005. But the install sequence failed, because--according to the results of a Symantec diagnostic test lasting hours--a Trojan horse program called Adware.minibug had infected the drive.

After placing a call to Symantec, I waited some minutes before putting on a goofy headset my wife insisted I wear. I may have looked like Lily Tomlin, but the headset enabled me to step away from the computer. After some time, I began jotting down notes.

So began the evening's entertainment:

4:02 Put the chicken into the oven. Used the last of the aluminum foil. (Note to self: Buy more aluminum foil before wife finds out.)

4:05 Weirder-than-normal Muzak on the line. I wonder who chooses this stuff and whether they wear Dockers.

5:00 Still no sign of human life on the line, but the pre-Oscar parade is starting. The Muzak's getting worse. (Is that possible?)

5:05 Tested the chicken. Outdid myself this time, but not enough butter on hand to make the risotto. Wife won't be happy. Still no Symantec.

5:08 How long does it take to answer a telephone? If Clint wins best director, that would make my day.

5:12 Bored beyond belief. Starting to impersonate the Numa Numa guy. My two cats keep their distance.

5:15 How many miles does a phone connection span from San Francisco to India? Mind wandering. I'm picking Hilary Swank for best actress, but Annette Bening was pretty damn great in "Being Julia."

5:20 This is the longest I've ever waited on a support call.

5:30 Oscars start. Yes!

5:39 Chris Rock's so tame, he's lame. He's so careful not to offend. He should hang on a tech support line for a while to retrieve his edge.

5:42 Halle Berry's on stage. Oh my.

5:49 Was that Abba I just heard? Time to feed the cats.

5:52 Starting to fantasize about what I would say to Symantec's CEO if he were to pick up the phone.

5:55 Robin Williams goes into his shtick. Max, my Russian Blue, approaches the sofa, looks up for approval, then barfs on the rug.

6:00 More than an hour of wearing this silly headset. Still no sign of life at Symantec. My ear's assumed the consistency of cauliflower.

6:05 Beyonce is wearing green eye shadow. Then again, I suppose few people are looking at her eye shadow.

6:09 I'm actually starting to hum along with the Muzak. Danger, Will Robinson, danger!

6:10 Finally, a response: "Muta," from Symantec's tech support, answers the phone. Let us pick up on the narrative:

Muta began to recite the checklist of troubleshooting items, when I interrupted.

"You don't need to go on," I told him. "There's a Trojan horse called Adware.minibug that the diagnostic utility on the Symantec page says is the problem."

Well, then we can go ahead and resolve the problem, Muta said.

Wonderful, I thought. The end is near.

"How would you like to pay?"

Come again?

I heard correctly. Two hours-plus hanging in phone purgatory was not enough. Symantec was giving me two choices: I could receive tech assistance by e-mail; in that case, I would pay $39.95. Or I could resolve the issue with a live "expert" like Muta for $69.95.

"But I spent 69 bucks buying the damned thing at retail!" I yelled.

Muta realized he had a psycho-in-the-making on the line and did his best to defuse a potential crisis.

"I'm sorry, sir, but I don't make the rules. Would you like to proceed?"

Um, I don't think so, I said. Why should I spend more money to get rid of an infected file that Norton Antivirus was supposed to take care of in the first place?

Click.

You might assume a company that makes antivirus software wouldn't gouge paying customers who can't install its product because a minor Trojan horse has infected the computer's drive. Isn't that what this stuff is supposed to fix in the first place? One day, I hope to put that question directly to Symantec's chief executive, John Thompson.

It's politically correct to say Microsoft is too big and Windows should be reined in. But might consumers be better off if all the antivirus technology they need came free of charge, as part of the operating system? We'll soon find out, because that's the direction Microsoft is heading. Truth be told, after this latest go-around with Symantec, I can't wait.

Biography
Charles Cooper is CNET News.com's executive editor of commentary.

More Perspectives

[tripqzon]

Symantec service

I had a similar situation. Needless to say, I also was not happy.

To remedy the situation, I downloaded FREE AVG 7.0, use Firefox as my browser, Thunderbird for my email, and stopped using IE altogether. I've been virus free ever since.

When my mothers Symantec subscription expires, I will put AVG on her computer also.

Symantec needs to learn how to treat their paying customers.

To Symantec I say: BITE ME!!!

Could not agree more!

I, too, have had my experiences with Norton Internet Security 2005 and Symmantec and they are absolutely hostile to their paying customers. Right now my system keeps telling me that my subscription has expired but, when you check, it clearly shows that my subsciption is valid until December 2005. All attempts to contact Symmantec have failed. I'll fight with their product until December, then I am also going to purchase AVG. I used the free version on my last computer and on my daughter's computer and the results are ipressive. And, unlike Symmantec products, I don't need a Ph.D. to understand what the program is talking about.

By the way, another company with truly foul customer service is Hewlett-Packard. I bought a brand new custom made laptop from them and when something doesn't work, they act like it's my fault. When you remind them that they wrote and or installed the software, they give you idiotic responses like, "Well, you don't have enough bandwidth." I don't yet know what bandwidth has to do with an HP software update but, then I don't have a Ph.D.

AVG! AVG!!

Norton 2003 ate my hard drive (it's a "known issue") twice. I had to reformat. No more Norton after a decade. Get AVG - it's free (but I paid because it's good) and it does a great job. Found stuff Norton never found. Get it at grisoft.com.

Couldn't Agree More

I've had to remove Symantec from so many machines I can tell you! I've pulled it from my own laptops (3), my friends laptops and desktops, and from work. I had a similar experience, called Symantec, and after 4 hours online was "offered" the opportunity to pay as much as I paid for the software for their help.

I've switched to AVG, paid for my service, and remain virus free ever since. Even after a virus outbreak at work, my machine caught the little bugger and crushed it!

Free doesn't always mean better!

I used AVG for some time. However, when it wouldn't update the virus definations, I decided to actually pay for a AV program. I attempted to uninstall AVG only to find it harder to remove than some Viruses I have heard about.

After about 12 hours of searching my HD and Registry for references to AVG, I removed enough to be happy.

I tried another one (I can't remember it's name now) recently, and it blew away Microsoft's Media Player 10. I had to use a restore point to recover the damage there.

Unfortunatly, the AV software you have to pay for isn't really all that much better. I have tried McAfee, Trend Micro and Norton (currently using). I have been unhappy with all of them. However, Norton at least seems to run OK. I can disable the feature in Norton that is causing me problems lately and it runs seemlessly now.

I sometimes wonder why I pay the extortion fee's considering the darn thing hasn't found a virus yet.

AVG

I second that. A friends computer was just naild with 17 virus' (viri? what's the plural here, I never get that right) AVG fixed every one and I did not have to reformat. It rocks.

In this case "Free is better."

AVG doesn't do it's job at a low level so does NOT screw up registry settings, is totally non-intrusive, and does a great job. The product is "spot on" and updates very regularly, not when Norton schedules the update availablity. Symantec SUCKS, at work where it will go away soon and at home, where it hasn't been for years.

Having dealt with SymanCrap support and antics, any way is a better way!

[pastordude]

AVG

I will never go back to Norton; have been using AVG on one of my machines and am replacing Norton with AVG as my subscriptions expire. Norton, along with Intuit and many others are on my list of people not to give my money to. Free may not always be better, but in this case "it's good enough!" Get'er done!

[Relaxed44]

Buy a MAC

And you won't have these issues. In fact, you could kiss Symantec
goodbye! I did...

:)

Yes, please do...

The more people over on the Mac side, the more the Virus writers will focus on them instead of the PC. We might actually see a lull if the Mac marketshare actually made it up to about 40% or so.

Ah, who am I kidding, that will never happen!

[paulsecic]

Macs

I tossed my PC out & bought a Mac a year ago, and I don't need
Norton because Mac OSX is very secure. Windows wiill never be.

[201293546946733175101343322673]

I See

And buying a Mac will allow Mr. Jobs to rip you off instead of Symantec, I think this makes you fell better, huh? :)

[Thrudheim]

I think he already did . . .

for himself. If I am not mistaken, he's quite happy with it.

[rhett121]

Oh forget it!

It's not worth arguing with Windoze users, they are far too
closed minded and their operating system is far too wide open.
Let them suffer and complain all they want. I frankly could care
less if they want to stay with Windoze, let 'em. I would rather pay
a premium for a smaller market share product and very few
problems than be associated with morons like this as fellow Mac
users.
("morons" is directed at some of the other posters who's
comments are obviously uneducated and unwarranted, not at
the author, who's fine story was a common occurrence that
doesn't get enough press)

[rpanning]

Weatherbug

Sounds like you installed AWS Weather bug. That contains some adware so Norton picked it up. Try uninstalling that and give it a try again. Take a look at the documentation: <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/adware.minibug.html" target="_newWindow">http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/adware.minibug.html</a>

[charlie cooper]

weather bug?

actually, i didn't do that installation. all the more reason for the mystery. but thanx for the link anyway

Now I remember...

Reading your Symantec experience makes me remember why I completely removed all Microsoft products from my computers. I am currently running Ubuntu GNU/Linux on desktop and laptop, and I miss the concerns about viruses/malware like I would miss a bad toothache.

What's the problem?

I'm not really seeing what the problem is here. You called Symantec on a Sunday night, when their tech support hours are clearly listed on their site as 6AM-5PM PST, Monday through Friday. Their site also clearly says that support calls for home/home office/small business (i.e., non enterprise) users are $29.95 per incident for tech support, and $39.95-$69.95 for virus removal. And I'd be willing to bet the same information is listed in the manuals. Additionally, the very first Google result for "Adware.minibug" leads to a page on Symantec's site with manual removal instructions.

Now, maybe you're just trying to get across an "average user's" experience, but even that seems a little far fetched.

[aabcdefghij987654321]

What's the problem?

Try reading the story, then you'll know what the problem is. Don't ask questions that have answers you missed because you didn't look.

[System Tyrant]

Service

I have to admit if it had been me in his shoes I probably would have sent it back with a nice note telling them to get bent.

Personally, I use AVG. I stopped with Symantec at home when they started that stupid activation.

I can tell you a story simular to this one that came from a friend of mine. He was having problems on his computer after installing NA2003. Well, he isn't very computer literate so he called me for help. I got their and was bumfungled so I called symantecs tech support. As I recall we got through pretty quick (under 45 min). The symantec guy told us we had to pay for help, my friend decided he would so we paid. You know what the guy told us... here is a link to the fix on symantecs web site. I think at the time it was $50 dollars for the support call that took all of about 10 minutes (most of which is running through troubleshooting). Needles to say he was fumming. After all of that he asked the guy for a refund of the tech support call (considering he really didn't do anything other than point us to a website) and of course he said no. My friend took back Norton Antivirus 2003 to the store and exchanged it for McAfee (not my choice).

Now, I don't know what it takes to run an antivirus company, but that is ridiculas. Most companies I talk to for service will ask for the problem then if they find a link on their website point you to it no charge. Out side of that I have never really had a bad experience with symantec.

here's the problem

I had the same experience with mcaffee; If I spend money on a virus product, keep it upgraded, and it fails to do its job and I end up with a virus I fail to see why the consumer is responsible for the software failure.
My solution has been to use free software- avast with AVG non-resident for backup scans. They both keep their virus databased updated and have been as effective as norton and mcaffee.

[MattG75]

You've missed the issue

First off, Symantec a few months back, went to a 24/7 tech support line, due to the MASSIVE number of complaints they had. I had issues with it when it first came out, as it didn't properly remove last year's version like it was SUPPOSED to, according to the manual. I've never had a phone call answered in less than 60 minutes to Symantec. Last month, I had to reformat and reinstall due to a Windows error, and had to call in again. Took 3 tries, 2 days, and over 4 hours on the phone before I finally got a human being. When I contacted the company directly, they offered to have an AMERICAN call me back later (evidently their 2nd tier support is not available via the phone number). I was also informed that senior management was to be visiting the Indian call center the following week, to have a 'serious discussion with management' over the massive number of complaints they have had from customers. The only reason they didn't open a 24/7 call center here in the U.S. was they couldn't find a call center with enough employees who were willing to work 3rd shift.

The only mistake the reporter made in the first place was to NOT go to the website first, and get a priority ID number. He probably wouldn't have been charged for support then.

So before you go accusing the guy of doing the wrong thing, know what you're talking about. He shouldn't have been charged in this case. PERIOD. And the hold times, according to Symantec, ARE unacceptable.

One would think...

Just to think...all the support rep had to do was send him an
email to that page.

Here is what good support would have looked like even with
their current policy..."I'm sorry sir, phone support if fee-based. If
you would like I could sent you a quick email with a link to a
page on our Web site that might solve this problem for you.
However, if you want me to walk you through this on the phone,
we will have to bill you."

This kind of thing infuriates me. We pay through the nose for
commercial software and then pay as much or more
for support when the product is not working correctly.

If a company is going to charge for support of this nature, I like
the way open source companies work much better...Software is
free or essentially so which is used to sell support contracts for
those that want support (look at MySQL for instance).

For the record...I use a Mac as my primary machine so I don't
have to use Virus protection software. On my windows machine I
run AVG.

[charlie cooper]

User error?

Umm, it sounds as if I struck a nerve. First off, I'm not going to muck with my registry. Secondly, support calls to Apple over the weekend that I've put get answered within minutes. Lastly, where does any company get off charging that amount of $$ for a product that supposedly deals with viruses -- and won't load because it can't navigate past an infected file? And then it has the nerve to charge customers for the privilege! Yo dude, you're right: i am trying to take the side of the average user. i don't accept the assumption of so many in silicon valley that it's the user's fault. ever been to nordstroms? that's the way to treat customers.

[dmgm]

Post Follow-up

I'm assuming that someone in Symantec upper management is going to contact you about this. Please post a follow-up column about what they say to you.

I appreciate you giving the user perspective. As an IT Director I catch myself and my staff blaming the user to much. It takes an effort to see things from a users perspective. Seeing things from the users perspective forces you to talk to them a different way.

[charlie cooper]

Forgot to add

By the way, when I placed the call, the support team in India was already at its desk on Monday.

[declan00]

Nordstrom's service

You're right; the user shouldn't be blamed.

But the problem is that computer users expect software at rock-bottom prices to come with Nordstrom-level service. Sorry, that ain't going to happen.

Also, the Nordstrom analogy is a bit misleading. Computers are far more complex and prone to weird failure modes that require lots of expensive human time to fix -- compared to a shopper that simply wants to be pampered when buying overpriced shoes.

User error?

--First off, I'm not going to muck with my registry. --

If you are not going to "muck" with your registry, I would suggest that you take you to a qualified computer consultant in your area who you are comfortable with to do the job that you are so "nervous" to do. When you do, why don't you get back to us with the price of what your local technician charged. I know that I charge 50$ an hour.

--Secondly, support calls to Apple over the weekend that I've put get answered within minutes.

This is a valid criticism that should be addressed. Is this the correct way to do so?

-Where does any company get off charging that amount of $$ for a product that supposedly deals with viruses -- and won't load because it can't navigate past an infected file?

It would be helpful if you would open the users manual and read it.

If your point of this article is to make a statement about the software industry, then I would suggest your next expose should be about the medical industry and how they charged you too much for... Oh wait- you somehow have some clout because you are in the "Technology" industry.

Ask your doctor not to charge you for pre-existing conditions next time you are visting him.

--ever been to nordstroms? that's the way to treat customers.

Its been a couple of years since I have been to Nordstroms. Last time I went in there I had bought a suit 2 months earlier. Unfortunately, it was around the holiday times and I had gained 30 pounds. The suit was not fitting quite right, and I needed to exchange it for another.

Guess what? They refused to return the suit! I requested that they pay my membership fees for a local gym, but they refused.

How does this relate? The bloat of a Trojan on your machine is the equivalent of my 30 pounds. Why is it Nordstroms fault that I gained 30 pounds, and why is it Symantec's fault that you had a Trojan Horse on your computer prior to installation?

I'm sure that Symantec would be happy to provide you with a refund of the product.

[catchall]

Your lucky

My last call to Apple support ( on a Tuesday, 10AM ) took 10 minutes to get answered by a person, after which the next 30 minutes was totally useless. Nothing even close to a solution. I eventually hung up and took the machine into a local Mac shop. Cost me ( OK, my company ) a bit of cash to solve, but at least it was fixed.
Don't know; I've had better service on Dell, I've had worse.

The REAL Issue

From someone working in the IT industry, and knowing many people displaced by the corporate greed of these IT CEO's who believe that making their bonuses better by shipping AMERICAN jobs to india is a good thing, I suggest you all look at the REAL issue here. "Muta" is working for $3.25 hour. She doesnt care about you, your computer or if you accept the support payment or not. By the way, Neither does Symantec or any of these other big corporations. Becasue in the end, you already bought the product. They have your money and they dont have to pay "Muta" for health insurance or basic needs they would to an american worker that would care about you, and what you thought of their product, support and company. The only way things like this will stop is when greedy CEO's take their heads out of their butts and start caring about their customers. Brand Loyalty used to mean something.. CEO's (and their staff of employees) CARED that you used their product, knew it was a good investment, and promoted it to others. Now, all that matters was that your $69.00 cleared for the original box purchase.. oh well.. Thats what we have turned this industry into, and if we as technology specialists dont help to restore it.. this is all we can ever hope for.

Good luck to us all...

[natebooh]

IT tech are just the tip of the pile.

Rumors running around 30-40% of us baby-boomers are out of the mainstream income loop!
If your looking for job DON'T bother with Ohio, our school systems have figured it either, why all new tax levies are defeated? Hello we're broke too!
I don't understand what numbers Greenspan's looking at, everthings fine. Of course not one Senator or Congress person bothered to ask him so they don't know either.
Paul

Where's the love, Coop?

Coop and I were discussing this topic on his blog page last night. I think these points are important enough to be posted in response to the article - MS


Of course Symantec should support their customers, however I think you've slanted the story and omitted some things.

You left a question unanswered in your response to me. Was this a fresh OS install or an in-place upgrade? If this was a fresh install, and you weren't connected to the net, then how did you have a piece of spyware running in memory? The Symantec page clearly states this program is manually installed. Again, the phrase "rebuilding my wife's hard drive" implies a clean install, but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

I would also like to point out that you seem to have expected free support at 4pm on a Sunday for a *preexisting condition*. I might have felt a little better for you if the problem was with the software product itself, but that's just not the case here and it is disingenuous for a reporter to imply otherwise.

Here are the support options, easily found on the home page:

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.symantec.com/techsupp/support_options.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.symantec.com/techsupp/support_options.html</a>
The Online Support is free and "provides access to the automated support assistant, knowledge base, and email support." It is important to note here that this option rather quickly leads one to the solution for your problem. Also, this option is free and available at 4pm on a Sunday. Here are the steps:

Choose your version, click Virus Issues (second item on the left-hand list), click the Search tab, enter "Adware.minibug" and click Search.

The very first entry is "Symantec Security Response - Adware.Minibug"
There are three removal steps. Since you don't yet have the product installed you should skip to Step 3 "To delete the value from the registry"

Note - You can also find information on viruses at <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://securityresponse.symantec.com/" target="_newWindow">http://securityresponse.symantec.com/</a>
Click view all virus threats
Enter "Adware.minibug" in the Search box and you're there.

The second support option clearly states "$29.95 per incident, 6 A.M. to 5 P.M. PT, Monday through Friday" You were calling on a Sunday night. It doesn't matter where the helpdesk is located, the support hours are clearly posted.

Finally, I was surprised to see your blog entry on the main CNet page this morning. I would hope you think about the information I've given you and consider updating the article - especially considering you've used some inflammatory words and phrases.

Pre-existing Condition?

I don't really think the story is slanted. I have seen similar situations with Symantec occur during their "support" hours.
What I really don't understand is this idea that a virus removal program won't install because it detects a virus. So the tool is only useful if you don't already need it. That's like buying soap that only works on clean things. If you drop $70 on a piece of software, I think you have every right to expect it to install and to expect basic support if that install fails.
Symantec has reach the same point as Intuit in my experience.

[Johnny.Alpha]

Matt please

Try as yo might to shill for Symantec, it doesn't change the fact that they are a smelly steaming diaper. As I am typing this message I am on a 3 hour call to Symantec Enterprise support because their shiny new Enterprise Licensing portal is broke as a bag of glass. After 5 phone calls over 2 days, and ready to switch to whatever MS is selling.

[declan00]

If you shop at Nordstrom's, you pay for the privilege

Coop, my friend, you've had terrible computer luck recently. You're right to take the side of the average user, and the service you received is terrible.

But there's no such thing as a free lunch (or, in this case, a cheap product that comes with free technical support on a Sunday evening). If you don't to pay for technical support, then the cost of the product would probably have to rise. What's more, because users wouldn't be paying for "metered" customer service, there would be increased demand for it and you might wait even longer on hold.

This is counterintutitive, perhaps, but it may be better for consumers to have a cheap product that has metered customer service than an expensive one with "free" customer service. Making boxes and installation CDs are cheap; paying humans is (relatively) expensive.

[bcsaxman]

The Above-Post Makes No Sense

The author above has said "... there's no such thing as a free
lunch (or, in this case, a cheap product that comes with free
technical support on a Sunday evening). If you don't to pay for
technical support, then the cost of the product would probably
have to rise."

First, paying anywhere from $40 to $100 for Symantec's various
versions of security software is hardly a free lunch, and certainly
don't constitute cheap products by nearly anybody's standards.
Are they overpriced? Not if you value usability of your PC, but
that assumes that the price includes basic assumptions about a
company standing behind their product. For example, whether I
pay $50k for a Mercedes Benz or $25k for a Chrysler (or even
$5k for a used car from a reputable dealer), I'm assured that, if
the car fails while driving off the lot, the price includes a high
level of support from the seller to put things right without
additional charges. Pick any physical product, and this ideal
standard, while not always practiced, holds up in any court of
law if the consumer takes it that far. Why, in your mind, should
it be different for software?

As for paying more for technical support, I'd have to first point
out that it would be cheaper overall, in the long run, if Symantec
included the cost of tech support, on a per/unit sold basis, in
the price of every copy of their product. Forty bucks for a service
call becomes a few extra dollars per box, given that not
everyone will have to make a service call. You could say that isn't
fair to those who don't have problems, but since the company's
best avenue for finding out where product defects lie is via
service calls, I'd say that everyone being allowed to make one
when they had to enhances the ability to make a better product.
That's certainly good for all consumers.

More importantly though, I have to ask since when sitting on the
phone listening to muzak for hours suddenly became not worth
anything, even on a Sunday? That's time down the toilet for a
customer who could be doing something - anything - more
productive. So there is cost of tech support immediately
incurred, and Symantec - the company responsible for the wait -
is being paid already, in units of time. To then impose a
monetary charge on top of that is not reasonable or justifiable.
The fact that it's POSSIBLE is due to the barrel the present
Adware/Virus/Malware/Whatever situation has every consumer
over. But 'possible' does not equate to 'justifiable', in regards to
Symantec's actions (as taken via their business model). To make
that logic work, you would also have to accept that genocide,
since it is possible, is also justifiable. The same for robbery,
murder, extorition, vandalism, etc... The fact that these are
extreme situations as compared to Symantec's business
practices does not lessen the weakness inherent in the logical
justification for them all - it simply shines a bright light on the
flaw.

Another quote: If "... users wouldn't be paying for "metered"
customer service, there would be increased demand for it and
you might wait even longer on hold. This is counterintutitive,
perhaps, but it may be better for consumers to have a cheap
product that has metered customer service than an expensive
one with "free" customer service. Making boxes and installation
CDs are cheap; paying humans is (relatively) expensive."

This is worse than counterintuitive; it doesn't stand up to any
test of logic whatsoever. The best, most cost effective way to
decrease the demand for customer service is to reduce the need
for it - ie build a better product. Furthermore, requiring an
additional cost for IT support does absolutely nothing to reduce
the need for the same. If your computer doesn't work, and a
company's product is complicit in that condition, the computer
will need IT support no matter how much the company charges
for it. The fact that they make it costly only means that an
increased number of people who need the help may not be able
to afford it, and thus the onus is now successfully moved from
the company to 'X' number of consumers to fix it. This isn't just
unethical, it's bad economics. How could we expect any
company to provide the best service or product possible if they
all were similarly allowed to shirk their responsibilities - of
providing a good product at a fair price to a paying customer -
so easily? How fast do you think our economy would start
looking like a bad reproduction of the old Soviet economy,
where no one was responsible for anything, and thus nothing
was done for the benefit of anyone except those close to the
centers of power? Isn't this exactly the situation - the "dirty
secret" - that the original author was talking about? If you don't
remember, I'll restate it: People in the technology writing
business get special perks, because of their proximity to those
holding the power to help. In so many words, that's the 'given'
the original author presented. That situation isn't just a perk, it's
a symptom of a bigger problem hiding right under your noses.

Declan, before being so glib about costs and so forth, you
should A] think about the logical implications of what your
saying - for the economy, efficeincy, morality, what have you -
and B] take more time to imagine what it's already like for the
rest of us poor slobs in the trenches, whose hard earned cash
actually keeps this techno-economy (including your job as a
commentator) in exisitance. Some trends are not good.
Defending this particular disfunctional trend, as exemplified by
Symantec's shennanigans, will not make any of them better.

[Michael Grogan]

Bull

The answer is clear, don't buy software from arrogant companies who have demonstrated that they no longer give a d---n about quality or their customers. And don't pay attention to idiots who love to apologize for the companies or make excuses for them; the idiots are probably on the company payroll anyway.

[yobtvoya]

You think *PC* support stinks? Try TV support!

You think PC support is bad - try appliance support. I know this is not exactly on topic, but I am tying to point out that PC support is not alone in its lack of service.
I have a CityAdvantage Protection Plan from Circuit City for my big-screen Sony TV. In the past 12 months, I have had a technician out to my house no less than 12 times. For the same problem. At one stage, my TV was out of service for over 3 months. And it is still not working correctly. I have invoked all clauses in the contract to try to get this lemon replaced, to no avail. Nobody cares, because I am just a single voice without media support or some big name behind me to scare up actual results.

Now that's what I call service. Pardon me while I puke.

[MajorCB]

Panasonic HDTV

Mine was down for 2 months and last recourse was to Tell them I would load set into Pickup and parade it around thier East Coast HQ in NJ with a Lemon on it Finally got it fixed after 3rd try

[CitizenX]

Wow

I think if you showed up with your lemon TV on the front
steps of the company, you would get satisfaction in a
heartbeat.

It can be done but you have to push the issue. You should
have pushed it after incident number 3.

[Kalvos]

TV Service Nightmares

Hi,

I understand and sympathize.

I've worked for a small, independent electronics retailer for nearly 20 years. The service issue is a nightmare all around. Every defective unit loses money for the retailer ... and for small independents like us who pride themselves in service, it's a killer issue.

More and more new units are defective or DOA or simply don't match the advertised features, even with high-end products. We often can't get replacements because the models change quickly, and the distributor won't take them back. (Even if they do take them back, it's trucking costs both ways. And the paperwork for repair reimbursement takes as long as the repair.)

So we have to undertake repairs. But we often can't get parts. Models change so quickly that parts are not even made available, or are priced so high that a new unit is cheaper than a repair. Or the parts only come as complete assemblies; board-level repair is almost dead. And with computer design, the days of standardized parts or modules are over.

Service manuals are sometimes available for a hefty price -- but arrive on CD with circuit diagrams as giant JPEGs. They have to be printed and taped together before we can even start to work, and then we discover the parts on the page don't match some improvised assembly-line revision we've got in front of us.

When we're shipped wrong parts of DOA parts, we eat them and order again. And forget picture tubes. Quality has plummeted, with focus and purity problems, and short lives. Replacements are almost all rebuilt tubes. Plasma? Try explaining why that VH-1 logo is burned into the screen because the kids leave it on every night (not to mention how their electric bill went up after going to plasma).

More folks are buying at Wal-Mart or Circuit City but drag it to us to repair a month later. We can't efficiently fix all those custom models, and even if we could, who wants a $100 repair bill on that $88.88 television? And don't forget that since bread &#38; butter items are now sold in big box stores at lower prices than we can buy them wholesale, there's no income stream to support a stock of custom parts we might never use.

Also, fewer repairs come in because of the buy-and-toss mentality encouraged by big box stores. So our repair staff is 25% what it was 10 years ago, and no longer divided by brand expertise, where we could know in a minute what to fix and where to get parts.

And in-home service? Replacement is the best option after the costs are totted up, as we live in a rural area where in-home service means miles in the snow. (If we can even get replacements, as I mentioned.)

It's a losing battle. The rule becomes: Junk the unit and buy a new one. We love to repair equipment, and it's a great sadness that our shop will close this fall after 35 years in business.

Dennis

[yobtvoya]

I should have mentioned that this is an expensive Sony TV

Thanks for all your replies. I should have mentioned that I bought this Sony KP61HS10 61" rear-projection TV for around $2,300 in June 2000. I only did that after doing my homework on the Web and newsgroups. Many home theater buffs had recommended this model, and the reviews were stellar.
The TV weighs a ton and is huge, so it will be hard to parade it in front of Circuit City garnished with lemons, and transport is bad for CRT-based RPTVs. Maybe when it finally breaks completely I will do that.
I agree that I should have made a bigger fuss much earlier, but I foolishly trusted the system. Make no mistake, I have made calls, written emails, and lord knows what else, but I suppose that I am not that good at raising a stink.
Seeing as the TV cost so much, it will be a hard decision for me to junk it, especially since I don't want to spend another couple of grand on another big TV that might give me just as much trouble.
I'm not sure where to go from here, other than to again bash GE Warranty Services, whose public relations department treated me despicably.

[aabcdefghij987654321]

Norton bloatware slows down PC when it does work.

Symantec seems to want to tbe the Microsoft of the anti-virus/spyware arena, and in some ways they have succeeded, Nortons is bloated, it slowed down every computer I've put it on by a noticable amount.

Nowdays I install Clamwin.com (open source anti-vir that updates patters about twice a day, and is tiny and fast) and/or AVG. I also insist that clients use Firefox where ever possible and give them Adware and/or Spybot search and destroy. Total cost $0, total satisfaction 100%. What do people need to think about?

rgds

Franki
htmlfixit.com

Yeah, but you're the guy...

who's always spreading works and other crap without even knowing it. Thanks a lot.

[System Tyrant]

Support

Symantec has every right to charge for their support services. It's called the American Way. Doesn't make it right or wrong.

I feel for anyone who had this happen to them. Support from corporation and even small business on a whole has probably always been pretty poor. Unless your in the service business then your only real goal is to sell the product. I know I am stereotyping.

Here is a story I heard once (don't know if it's true or not). A Lawyer makes a dentist appointment for 8:30 A.M. He gets there a few minute early and signs in and takes a seat. After about an hour and a half of waiting he finally get to see the dentist. Well, he's having quite a bit of work done so he has to see the dentist a few more times. After waiting for more than an hour after the second visit he gets pretty angry that it is taking this long to get in with an appointment. On the third visit he tells the assistant that he will be billing for every hour he has to wait in the waiting room after his appointment time. Sure enough he waits again for more than an hour. The next day the dentist gets a bill for $1000 for the lawyers time.

I say you should bill them for your time on hold. If it was long distance call send them a bill for the phone charges.

Phone Support Blows....

Why do people put up with phone support? Would you have your
bike, blender, or car repaired via phone support? Phone support
has never worked - that's why I got into IT 10 years ago. I tired
of waiting....

Just learning it has to be easier on the blood pressure. OR find
someone you trust to handle it personally. Drop off your item
and pick it up when finished....

[MajorCB]

Symantec??? TRY Zone Alarm

Your problems with Symantec/Norton echo mine and that acaused me to go to AVG and then to Zone Alarm's program which works perfectly

Time to regulate support?

Everything done by a business is guided only by profit. A point comes where the consumer interest/interest of masses is thrown to dogs. Then it is time to regulate,using a new Law.The after-sales support of most of the products stinks,even more so in tech products and webbed world.

It's time this is regulated considering
1.Free support for purchased products
2.Better/more efficient mechanism to handle consumer complaints
3.Level of quality of service

Onus for doing this should be on the business,not with consumers, similar to the California law where Choicepoint had to announce the security breach voluntarily.

Put support options on the box

If companies were forced to make their support options clear on the packaging and or download sites, then people could be more aware of what they are letting themselves in for.
People probably wouldn't buy a 50$ product if they could see that support calls would be $39.95 also, I know I wouldn't.

Try a better company

Some companies would dearly love a public light shining onto their customer service departments. The computer protection software I use, Stop-Sign, has excellent customer service built into their subscription. Granted, they could expand their hours beyond 8am-8pm Pacific time, but nobody's perfect.

AVG? Pzzz... Still in the stone age, AVAST rules

I can't believe ppl are still using AVG, everyone knows Avast! antivirus is the best free antivirus program in existence. (yeah, I know, sounds opinionated, but once you try it, you'll see)

With Virus Recovery Database, near daily updates, friendly interface and voice sounds, and on-access heuristic scanning, instant messenger scanner, P2P scanner, and browser/internet scanner.

Also has scanning on boot, and many more features. One of the best I have came across, just check it out.

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.avast.com" target="_newWindow">http://www.avast.com</a>

[boringboytattooed]

Avast?

I had Avast and it seemed as though a virus always infected my pc. I'm sure every anti-virus software someone will have a nightmare story.I have free AVG and it updates regularly and I haven't had any problems yet.I thought anti-virus was to stop infections.Not allow pc to be infected then have to manually remove a virus.What works for one may not work for another.I've talked to others that haven't had any problems with Symantec,or even other anti-virus software.Also I had my pc built custom.Maybe the problem is manufacturers of pcs.Maybe they should have security built in thats reliable so no one would have to be concerned about viruses,spyware,adware,malware etc.

two hours for service?

Simple solution in hardware form available right now. One second solution and recovery complete at one of many restored point. Software is not the answer. Two types of computers- those with virus and those that will be with virus.

TK

Perhaps you should look at the online knowledge base

I found your answers in two minutes...

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/adware.minibug.html" target="_newWindow">http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/adware.minibug.html</a>

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/nav.nsf/docid/2000012015322806?Open&#38;src=sg&#38;docid=2002071514414806&#38;nsf=nav.nsf&#38;view=5faa3ca6df6f549888256edd0061c0a4&#38;dtype=&#38;prod=Norton%20AntiVirus&#38;ver=2005&#38;osv=&#38;osv_lvl=" target="_newWindow">http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/nav.nsf/docid/2000012015322806?Open&#38;src=sg&#38;docid=2002071514414806&#38;nsf=nav.nsf&#38;view=5faa3ca6df6f549888256edd0061c0a4&#38;dtype=&#38;prod=Norton%20AntiVirus&#38;ver=2005&#38;osv=&#38;osv_lvl=</a>

count that a victory for the online knowledge base

Lol Scott. Makes a change for an online knowledge base to get the job done - M$'s knowledge base doens't always work as well as this.

But I can't see what else (apart from the knowledge base) the (free) solution CAN be. People buy a product that they don't have the expertise or expertise to use (try driving a car, without lessons from an instructor, ot at least from dear ol dad), and they want a warm body on call 24X7 and don't want to pay for the privilege. SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE has to pay for the cost of support. Personally, I've been supporting my own computer for 25 years and don't like having to pay for the support resources, that I don't need.

I had a family member say that they couldn't use the knowledge base for a particular product. I said "why - you go to the library every week and borrow books, this is no different".

My only other thought - people are happy (?) to pay for AAA membership (I'm happy to pay for this support contract). If a computer user doens't have the experience/ability to fix the problem themselves and can't use a knowledge base - I recommend they get a third party support contract.

SYMANTEC: NEEDS MORE HUMANS !!

I have tried 5X, UNsuccessfully in the past 2 weeks, to merely get a Live Human @ SYmantec to ASSIST with Activation of their $ 750 ! LiveState Server Backup Program. I JUST GET HOLD MUSIC ...

AMERICA NEEDS MANY MORE ONLINE PHONE TECHS 24x7 !!
No More Excuses
Re/PDX

[jones172]

RIGHT YOU ARE!

From Tom:

The classic mistake is to operate a firm in what is euphemistically called "short-staffed." That said, tech support calls are expensive, and the cost must be passed on to the customer. For me, peer-to-peer message boards are a good solution. People who have knowledge are often willing to help for free.

Tom
Thomas L. 8(%nospam$#^ Jones, Ph.D., Computer Science

microsoft and symantec need a makeover

these companies need better management and better programmers , technicians who will put out a quality product that works without bugs. they should pay for screwups not me. Their tech support is sickenly bad and the wait time on the phone is criminal and the hourly charge should be the subject of an congressional investigation.

"Technicians"

Please remove "technicians" from your post.

They are victims of circumstance and in every company have to deal with the issues of the other folk that you have mentioned.

[als]

Symantec Software

Having been a programmer for close to 30 years, I can say that Symantec products are just about the worse I have used. If you run into a problem, the standard fix is uninstall and then reinstall the product. Of course that never fixes the problem. When you uninstall a Symantec product, folders, files, and hundreds of registry entries are left behind to gum up your PC forever. Only poorly designed programs leave their trash behind. I now use AVG free. And least I forget, once you remove Symantec from your PC, it will run twice as fast.

[oldpaul]

Symantec Software

"When you uninstall a Symantec product, folders, files, and hundreds of registry entries are left behind to gum up your PC forever. Only poorly designed programs leave their trash behind. I now use AVG free."
_________________________

I totally agree. I find it totally ironic that the programmers at Symantec can only come up with "manual removal" instructions when their software fails to install.

I personally think it is time for Mr. Thompson, CEO of Symantec, and formerly of IBM, to pack his bags. But with these outrageous support charges I suppose the "bottom line" at Symantec is very rosy indeed so he'll be around for sometime to come.

As far as I'm concerned Symantec went SOUTH when its former CEO, Gordon Eubanks, departed.

I purchased Systemworks -- the NAV module wouldn't install -- I removed all the registry entries manually that supposedly might cause this problem and NAV still wouldn't install.

I gave up and am using AVG.

Remember the "good old days" when the WordPerfect Corporation offered TOP NOTCH support and still made a profit?