December 15, 2005 10:38 AM PST
There's no getting off that no-fly list
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Unintended targets include Congressmen and babies. And even getting on the "cleared list" won't clear up all the problems.
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112 comments
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It would appear most airline passengers have more to fear from obsequient dysfunctional undertrained government officials these days who delight in terrorizing innocent people!
You say the list is inaccurate? Well then, join me in our quest for better accuracy.
Staff who deliberately abuse passengers? You know this is just a sock puppets words. If you had real examples of abuse, the staff would be fired or the rules changed. List your specific examples of abuse. Otherwise I will just say "europe is an abusive country" and we can leave it at that.
Shoot first? Yes, that is what they are trained to do when someone claims to have a bomb and runs. We give them permission to do this. You have no idea how our country works, but if you want to change the rules, feel free to become an anti-terrorism combat instructor or a policy maker in washington.
I'm a garbageman, I collect Eurotrash...
The response this country has taken to the attacks is simply idiotic. TSA no-fly lists? Do the people within the TSA actually think this will help?
If I were a terrorist, I would simply wait at the airport and listen for somebody's name who gets on the plane. Once I hear a name that seems to be uninhibited by the TSA, I would make a reservation using that name. The terrorists have no problem acquiring false identity documents, making it that much easier for them to use a "safe" name.
We, as American citizens, have lost a lot of freedom because of the TSA and the Dept. of Homeland Security. The terrorists have cost us our freedom to move about the country at will, and they have cost us our anonymity. I'm sorry, but I would chalk that up as a win for them.
Freedom comes at a price. One of the things it costs is security. To be truly safe from the terrorists, we need to completely give up our freedom. I'm not willing to do that. I'm willing to take the risk of being attacked if it means I can enjoy my freedom.
From someone outside of the US, it is simply amazing how much idiotism can the US society sustain before people would revolt. For heaven's sake, if senators are on the list, what else does it take to see something is horribly wrong here. How long did it take to regain sanity after McCarthy started his witch hunts? Ten years? Do we have to wait that long for the TSA random witch hunt to stop?
If the TSA do not get it, it means we should all be very afraid. Bad people don't care much for the lame.
Can a pregnant mother intending to call her preborn some nasty unflyable name still fly under this program?
Hey, if your name is "Abu Al Zarqawi" or "Jihadi Mohammed" yeah, you are gonna get scanned.
Liberals think the constitution is some kind of suicide pact saying we must willfully ignore people out to kill us.
Its a mental disorder....
Your comments are just more bleating from right wing sheep, who yell "liberal media" every time a news agency accurately reports on the failings of this administration.
The point is that 28,000 Americans have been wrongly placed on a list that prevents them freedom of travel.
This is something we used to expect from the USSR not the USA - in fact Bush an co. are the most unpatriotic administration ever to have been in office.
They are willing to tear up the constitution, implementing law after law that denies Americans their basic rights, whilst at the same time adobt a communist style hiding of facts and figures.
Chairman Bush and his subordinates should do away with this abuse of power, as it serves no purpose whatsoever.
What is the point of stopping tens of thousands of law abiding Americans their freedom to travel. They simply want to abuse their positions as elected officials to control our lives. In their absolute arrogance they fail to understand their job is to represent those that voted for them, not to decide what Americans can and can't do.
Go back to Russia with the rest of the commie a-holes that are running this country.
We can do without presidents that allow their subordinates to cheat the stock market, steal campaign finance revenue and give out the names of CIA agents to the press.
We need a president that will bring back respectability and honesty to the Whitehouse, and that president will certainly not be a lying, communist loving Republican thief.
The patriot act has been the most effective govermental attempt at oppression and the least effective at actually combating terriosts. How many terriosts have been actually found guilty? ZERO, how many attacks have been prevented? ZERO
like bush and his supporters the patriot act is a ZERO.
I think what we have is beaurocrates who never studied history. We are inching closer and closer to the kinds of things we fought to stop. I just wonder how long it will be before we start requiring people to carry around identification just so we can get into a movie theater or get gas.
I will say this, as much as I don't like Bush, it's not all his fault. Those other elected officials followed suit until one day they realized Bush's popularity was dropping. Now they all sing a different tune because they want to be re-elected. Frankly, I'm not going to vote for any in the current government. In my opinion they have all done a disservice to our country.
>>The point is that 28,000 Americans have been
>>wrongly placed on a list that prevents them
>>freedom of travel.
>>This is something we used to expect from the
>>USSR not the USA - in fact Bush an co. are the
>>most unpatriotic administration ever to have
>>been in office.
Total crap. Anyone on a no-fly list can get in a car and drive anywhere they want. There is a computer / list problem, not some jack-boot thug stepping on their neck.
They will not die in a labor camp in Siberia.
Your attempt to make the link between missing an airline flight or being late to arrive and BEING KILLED BY STALINIST THUGS falls flat.
Its actually quite pathetic that this is the best argument you can come up with.
And that is beside that point. Innocent people are being found guilty of being potential terrorists, with NO DUE PROCESS or chance to get off the list. That is as unamerican as you can get.
The sad thing is that this does not stop a real terrorist, but does harrass and put undue strain on american citizens.
You sir are a coward and I hope your name finds its way on this list, then you can whistle a happy tune as you drive across the country.
Bush is as intelligent as a box of rocks and hjas the reasoning ability of a 4 year old. It seems his followers are no better.
Stalin, though he killed and repressed many thousands of people wrongly, was not one of those supposedly "evil" hitler -like people who stood only for taking over the world, killing anyone who was said to be less human, or somehow deserving of the deaths due to being part of a group that harboured little to no histility against them. He did, however, transform russia from a loose Peasant country, to a world power in the 30's...
How bout you call them evil thugs, or even immoral people.. He may have wronged many, but he wasn't such a person like hitler, Usama (using proper phonetical spelling), and so-on.
If voting was at 50% of the US, we'd only have 27% of americans actually actively supporting bush, which is NOT a majority.
You can read the minds of millions!
I know most Americans want gay marriage too, they are just too lazy to stand up to the christians.
I know most Americans want to raise minimum wage to $20 / hour, but dang it, they are just so lazy, they forget to do it...
GENIUS I tell you. Pure GENIUS.
mark d.
One minor point: Microsoft has the rights to reproduce, publich, or make available/reproduce anything you post/send through any of their services, such as IM, Email, Blog, etc. if you read their privacy agreement, there's a clause there allowing them to do this, which is object to, which is a lot like this.
I understand...
Let me know if you come up with any examples of people whos lives are damaged because of this. I can come up with about 3000 innocent New Yorkers who's lives were damaged by terrorism.
Until then, I'll focus my anger on Jihadis and Child Molesters. These people can be stopped dead in their tracks and we can get real results. These people have damaged the lives of real people all around the country. IMHO, its the biggest thing on my radar. Yes, even bigger than liberals.
Even Israel cannot keep terrorists out and it's not for lack of experience or for lack of trying. Incidentally, Israel stated that our approach is a waste since it does not stop anything but annoys eveybody.
In fact, this is ONLY a politician gimmic so they can *look like* they are doing something about the problem.
Let's get real, drop the stupid no-fly list and concentrate on stopping explosives from getting on airplanes which is the only real threat left to us.
When the Israelis get hit with a terrorist, they don't just throw in the towel. They don't throw out the baby with the bath water. They don't just give up and lay down their arms, proclaiming that their guns failed to stop madmen. No, the take it up another notch. They get even more hard-ass and ninja-like. We must aspire to be just like them.
Be afraid.... be very afraid....
>>Posted on: Dezember 16, 2005, 1:40 PM PST
>>Story: There's no getting off that no-fly list
>>Total crap. Anyone on a no-fly list can get in >>a car and drive anywhere they want. There is a >>computer / list problem, not some jack-boot >>thug stepping on their neck.
>>Its actually quite pathetic that this is the >>best argument you can come up with.
Well if you can drive anywhere, then please get into your car, start in New York and attend a meeting in Berlin on the next day. Hardly a problem for you it seems...
Quite pathetic would be the lack of understanding the need for modern buisnessmen to travel fast and over seas...
Lets face it: What is the exact use of the no-fly list ? It would stop suspected terrorists from boarding a plane even if:
-They do not carry explosives that would trigger the security systems
-They do not carry harmfull objects that would pass a thorough inspection
-they can't be identified by their appearance
The only loophole would be that the would-be terrorist would need to use their real name.
Lets think about that for 5 seconds (hard job .. I know).
If you wanted to wreak havok on your nemesis and got the means to get explosives, full-automatic firearms etc. Would you use your real name on a fake passport ?
Fat chance. But the officials needed to DO SOMETHING. They obviously did not think of the consequences a system like this would have- but it was SOMETHING. Nothing USEFULL, but SOMETHING.
Unfortunately, discussions about politics often turn into very dualist "Your opinion is different than mine, so you must be absolutely wrong, and to let you know that you're wrong, I'm going to use tons of fallacies, quotes, and call you lots of names such as facist, nazi, liberal, UCLA bonehead, etc."
I would wager that all of the great political breakthroughs in time came from groups of men with different opinions. I think most of us can agree, for example, that the constitution was a good thing. It promoted many freedoms, although we could blog all day long about whether or not it was the most effective way of doing things. The important thing is that it had good intentions. Jefferson, Washington, Adams, and everybody else in there probably had different opinions. They most likely had some pretty good political tussles. But they were somehow able to discuss their different ideas and use them to make something good. It's the whole synergy thing: 1 + 1 = 3.
It's obvious that all of us have different ideas of freedom, and different preferences for how that should be carried out. One person may not mind the extra hassle at the airport, while another may be extremely agitated. Which is right? Both, I think. It just depends on who you are.
No government will ever be perfect. The guy who doesn't mind the extra security measures at the airports will never be able to convince or persuade the other guy that his way is better. That's just human nature: we have different preferences and ideas.
My point is: the whole idea of government, I think, is to promote the reasonable discussion of these different ideas. We will never reach a perfect solution. Your heaven is my hell, and vice versa. Using these blogs to either criticize and label as absolute evil (or conversely, to praise and label as perfect and just), and to throw crap at people who have different ideas is going to get us nowhere.
So use the opportunity to see different ideas and get different opinions. It's the construction of new ideas, and the strength of cooperation that is going to "make the world a better place" (I apologize for using that lame cliché).
Happy holidays.
I am a United States Citizen born in California. I served in the United States Air Force for six years and have lived in Arizona, Washington, Oregon, Texas, Colorado, California, Alabama and while in the USAF the United Kingdom (England).
I have always been an honest law abiding US Citizen, I have certainly never committed, been charged or convicted of any felony.
I recently traveled on Frontier Airlines on Business. While getting my ticket the Ticket Agent had me wait an extra 15 minutes while literally phoneing the Terrorist Screening Center to make sure I was not the John Smith in the Terrorist Screening Database. The same thing happened on the return flight Friday.
The ticket agent at Frontier said apparently someone has used the name John Smith. I told her really gee probably about 2 million people in the World have the name John Smith.
The Transportation Security Administration believes this screening occasionally leds to frustrating delays at airports for individuals inadvertently impacted by the clearance procedures.
My experience shows this is not an occasional delay (twice in two days). Its impact is clearly and purposely being misrepresented by the TSA. It has also been recommended that I just change my name.
Several of my relatives have also reported delays and being questioned very rudely. One was going to see her husband in Florida before he was deployed to Iraq. TSA has over 200,000 names on the list already. How many US Citizens are being impacted like I was every day.
I am very concerned the rights I served to protect and many my fellow servicemen have died for are being eroded.
How can I trust my elected officials to protect those rights. When I look at Iraq abuse, corrupt intel of WMD's, torture camps in Europe, U.S.A holding Afghan prisoners in Cuba, CIA kidnapping Italian citizens in Italy and flying them off to another country. White House officials outing CIA Operatives in retaliation for candor. President Bush signing a secret order in 2002 authorizing the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on U.S. citizens. This just seems to go on and on with no apparent accountabilit, Congress and the Senate just through up hands.
Since I have the name John Smith has the NSA been checking my email and eavesdropping on my phone conversations. To the absurd, I recently sent a good size letter with bubble wrap inside in the mail and it disappeared, it was never delivered to the recipient or returned to me. This has never happened to me before, prior to today I would say it just got lost in the mail. Now I have to wonder was this intercepted by some Government Agency, is it sitting in some agents in basket waiting for them to return from vacation.
I dont believe I am being represented appropriately when my government implements and condones this type of activity. Such actions erode the fabric of the nation.
Enough is Enough, I urge everyone to send a letter to his/her Elected Officials urging them to protect our rights and please reject and do not extend the USA Patriot Act.
I am not a criminal and do not wish to be treated like one. Remember your name could one day be used by a criminal and then be added to the list as well, it's just that simple.
Thank You,
John Smith