July 3, 2005 6:00 AM PDT

The mystery of time travel

When it comes to the nature of time travel, physicists are pretty much at a loss, but some theorists think that has to change.
The New York Times

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Ergo the Ego?
PLEASE MOMMY, CAN'T I GO PLAY WITH THEM?
NO, she said, NOT UNTIL YOU'RE OLDER. THE LAW FORBIDS TIME TRAVEL UNTIL YOUR 21, etc...

Fixations and predelictions of individual humankind will always persist, as does the drive for exploration.

The notion of traveling back in time and the subsequent altering of future personal events by killing your grandfather or any other person, or altering the outcome of any specific event is illogical within the context of simplicity as we know it.

Assuming we have uncovered any means of actualizing time travel we would only be able to "view" events that have happened or are subsequently crystalized to happen. Just as we view a TV program that has already been created and shown, we are allowed to "view" but not to interact with it. And any possible interaction would only be on the basis of an already created series of predetermined outcomes. You cannot view what doesn't exist.

The ability to interact with, and alter, any event or life would immediately bring about the destruction of everything, because of the "connectedness" of all things. Think of this is a single thread holding a seam together in a lock stitch. Pulling on that thread unravels the entire mechanism of "holding". Removing your grandfather also removes everyone and every thing he ever came in contact with... which also removes every one and ever thing "they" came in contact with. And so on through the thread.

Bottom line: Time travel is relevant and probable, but "interaction beyond just viewing events" is not allowed.
Posted by vox365 (32 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Ergo the Ego?
PLEASE MOMMY, CAN'T I GO PLAY WITH THEM?
NO, she said, NOT UNTIL YOU'RE OLDER. THE LAW FORBIDS TIME TRAVEL UNTIL YOUR 21, etc...

Fixations and predelictions of individual humankind will always persist, as does the drive for exploration.

The notion of traveling back in time and the subsequent altering of future personal events by killing your grandfather or any other person, or altering the outcome of any specific event is illogical within the context of simplicity as we know it.

Assuming we have uncovered any means of actualizing time travel we would only be able to "view" events that have happened or are subsequently crystalized to happen. Just as we view a TV program that has already been created and shown, we are allowed to "view" but not to interact with it. And any possible interaction would only be on the basis of an already created series of predetermined outcomes. You cannot view what doesn't exist.

The ability to interact with, and alter, any event or life would immediately bring about the destruction of everything, because of the "connectedness" of all things. Think of this is a single thread holding a seam together in a lock stitch. Pulling on that thread unravels the entire mechanism of "holding". Removing your grandfather also removes everyone and every thing he ever came in contact with... which also removes every one and ever thing "they" came in contact with. And so on through the thread.

Bottom line: Time travel is relevant and probable, but "interaction beyond just viewing events" is not allowed.
Posted by vox365 (32 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Ergo the Ego?
PLEASE MOMMY, CAN'T I GO PLAY WITH THEM?
NO, she said, NOT UNTIL YOU'RE OLDER. THE LAW FORBIDS TIME TRAVEL UNTIL YOUR 21, etc...

Fixations and predelictions of individual humankind will always persist, as does the drive for exploration.

The notion of traveling back in time and the subsequent altering of future personal events by killing your grandfather or any other person, or altering the outcome of any specific event is illogical within the context of simplicity as we know it.

Assuming we have uncovered any means of actualizing time travel we would only be able to "view" events that have happened or are subsequently crystalized to happen. Just as we view a TV program that has already been created and shown, we are allowed to "view" but not to interact with it. And any possible interaction would only be on the basis of an already created series of predetermined outcomes. You cannot view what doesn't exist.

The ability to interact with, and alter, any event or life would immediately bring about the destruction of everything, because of the "connectedness" of all things. Think of this is a single thread holding a seam together in a lock stitch. Pulling on that thread unravels the entire mechanism of "holding". Removing your grandfather also removes everyone and every thing he ever came in contact with... which also removes every one and every thing "they" came in contact with. And so on through the thread.

Bottom line: Time travel is relevant and probable, but "interaction beyond just viewing events" is not allowed.
Posted by vox365 (32 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Ergo the Ego?
PLEASE MOMMY, CAN'T I GO PLAY WITH THEM?
NO, she said, NOT UNTIL YOU'RE OLDER. THE LAW FORBIDS TIME TRAVEL UNTIL YOUR 21, etc...

Fixations and predelictions of individual humankind will always persist, as does the drive for exploration.

The notion of traveling back in time and the subsequent altering of future personal events by killing your grandfather or any other person, or altering the outcome of any specific event is illogical within the context of simplicity as we know it.

Assuming we have uncovered any means of actualizing time travel we would only be able to "view" events that have happened or are subsequently crystalized to happen. Just as we view a TV program that has already been created and shown, we are allowed to "view" but not to interact with it. And any possible interaction would only be on the basis of an already created series of predetermined outcomes. You cannot view what doesn't exist.

The ability to interact with, and alter, any event or life would immediately bring about the destruction of everything, because of the "connectedness" of all things. Think of this is a single thread holding a seam together in a lock stitch. Pulling on that thread unravels the entire mechanism of "holding". Removing your grandfather also removes everyone and every thing he ever came in contact with... which also removes every one and every thing "they" came in contact with. And so on through the thread.

Bottom line: Time travel is relevant and probable, but "interaction beyond just viewing events" is not allowed.
Posted by vox365 (32 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Ergo the Ego?
PLEASE MOMMY, CAN'T I GO PLAY WITH THEM?
NO, she said, NOT UNTIL YOU'RE OLDER. THE LAW FORBIDS TIME TRAVEL UNTIL YOU'RE 21, etc...

Fixations and predelictions of individual humankind will always persist, as does the drive for exploration.

The notion of traveling back in time and the subsequent altering of future personal events by killing your grandfather or any other person, or altering the outcome of any specific event is illogical within the context of simplicity as we know it.

Assuming we have uncovered any means of actualizing time travel we would only be able to "view" events that have happened or are subsequently crystalized to happen. Just as we view a TV program that has already been created and shown, we are allowed to "view" but not to interact with it. And any possible interaction would only be on the basis of an already created series of predetermined outcomes. You cannot view what doesn't exist.

The ability to interact with, and alter, any event or life would immediately bring about the destruction of everything, because of the "connectedness" of all things. Think of this is a single thread holding a seam together in a lock stitch. Pulling on that thread unravels the entire mechanism of "holding". Removing your grandfather also removes everyone and every thing he ever came in contact with... which also removes every one and every thing "they" came in contact with. And so on through the thread.

Bottom line: Time travel is relevant and probable, but "interaction beyond just viewing events" is not allowed.
Posted by vox365 (32 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Ergo the Ego?
PLEASE MOMMY, CAN'T I GO PLAY WITH THEM?
NO, she said, NOT UNTIL YOU'RE OLDER. THE LAW FORBIDS TIME TRAVEL UNTIL YOU'RE 21, etc...

Fixations and predelictions of individual humankind will always persist, as does the drive for exploration.

The notion of traveling back in time and the subsequent altering of future personal events by killing your grandfather or any other person, or altering the outcome of any specific event is illogical within the context of simplicity as we know it.

Assuming we have uncovered any means of actualizing time travel we would only be able to "view" events that have happened or are subsequently crystalized to happen. Just as we view a TV program that has already been created and shown, we are allowed to "view" but not to interact with it. And any possible interaction would only be on the basis of an already created series of predetermined outcomes. You cannot view what doesn't exist.

The ability to interact with, and alter, any event or life would immediately bring about the destruction of everything, because of the "connectedness" of all things. Think of this is a single thread holding a seam together in a lock stitch. Pulling on that thread unravels the entire mechanism of "holding". Removing your grandfather also removes everyone and every thing he ever came in contact with... which also removes every one and every thing "they" came in contact with. And so on through the thread.

Bottom line: Time travel is relevant and probable, but "interaction beyond just viewing events" is not allowed.
Posted by vox365 (32 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Apologies...
Apologies... Spellcheck went amiss when making corrections and posted 3 times. #3 is the final.
Posted by vox365 (32 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Haha
Haha.
Posted by montgomeryburns (109 comments )
Link Flag
Aha!
Admit it, you've just experienced the "GroundHog Day" effect.
;-)
Posted by GGGlen (491 comments )
Link Flag
Apologies...
Apologies... Spellcheck went amiss when making corrections and posted 3 times. #3 is the final.
Posted by vox365 (32 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Haha
Haha.
Posted by montgomeryburns (109 comments )
Link Flag
Aha!
Admit it, you've just experienced the "GroundHog Day" effect.
;-)
Posted by GGGlen (491 comments )
Link Flag
Forward easy
backwards hard...

since we dont even really know what time is or how it works... scientists are talking out of their butt when they say its possible...

one pile of crap
Posted by volterwd (466 comments )
Reply Link Flag
If man were meant to fly...
He'd have been given wings!
Posted by montgomeryburns (109 comments )
Link Flag
Forward easy
backwards hard...

since we dont even really know what time is or how it works... scientists are talking out of their butt when they say its possible...

one pile of crap
Posted by volterwd (466 comments )
Reply Link Flag
If man were meant to fly...
He'd have been given wings!
Posted by montgomeryburns (109 comments )
Link Flag
Can you feel it ?
Ain't this ability to go back and slightly deflect / influence events what the rest of us call God ?
Posted by My-Self (242 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Say what?
Boy you have a twisted concept of 'god' if thats what you think.
Posted by montgomeryburns (109 comments )
Link Flag
Can you feel it ?
Ain't this ability to go back and slightly deflect / influence events what the rest of us call God ?
Posted by My-Self (242 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Say what?
Boy you have a twisted concept of 'god' if thats what you think.
Posted by montgomeryburns (109 comments )
Link Flag
When is also where
Traveling in time necessitates traveling in space as well. With all celestial objects in motion, any movement in time relative to any of these objects "when" also results in considerable displacement in that object's "where".

The earth, as example, travels over 30,000 miles every hour in it's orbit. A time displacement of even one second results in a change of location of several miles. This motion is complicated by the motion of the surface of the planet as it rotates around it's axis, the motion of the sun as it rotates within the galaxy, and the motion of the entire galaxy itself. A displacement of several years would have the time traveler pop out wherever the planet will be at the then-future location where the traveler begins. As the traveler can reasonably be expected to retain whatever vector it had at the moment of departure from it's time and location, that vector will continue and move it out of the path of the approaching target. In order to pop out of the machine where the planet was at the targeted time, great distance would have to be instantly traversed, and all vectors precisely matched, or the traveler would become a tennis ball with the planet a very fast tennis racquet.

In other words, the billiard ball would not emerge on the billiard table. It would emerge wherever the table will be at that small fraction of time required to traverse the table itself. The ball may move only a few inches relative to the table, but the table will travel several miles.

If such a machine were constructed, regardless of size, the traveler would need to compensate for all of these motions (orbit, spin, galactic displacement, etc.) precisely in order to emerge in what appears to the traveler as the same place where the journey began, which would necessitate unimaginable accelerations in order to be displaced over great distance as well as time. In other words, for H G Wells traveler to cover hundred or thousands of years, many trillions of miles would need to be traversed as well in order to not emerge in the vacuum of space where the planet will be at the moment when the traveler began the journey.

In the Contact story, Jodi Foster covers great distances, and converges with the past, all very quickly. The elapsed time from her perspective is much greater than what is seen by the outside observers. Although one can imagine the worm hole, or whatever, being flexible, like the rope of a tether ball, one still cannot escape the accelerations she and her craft would have encountered. Any person who has tried to hop up and down on a carrousel while it is rotating has experienced a tiny fraction of the problem. The floor of the carrousel is going in a circle, while the person on the platform is launched in a straight line from the point their feet leave the platform. The person touches down with a mismatched vector, and struggles to regain balance. Multiply this by millions or billions, and you can grasp the enormity of the problem.

Thus, if time travel is possible, it would of necessity be a one way trip. Any effort to kill one's progenitor would necessitate traveling a very great distance after traveling the time back. The billiard ball would emerge in some place other than where it left, and could therefore not interfere with itself.

If the time machine itself goes with the traveler, the above mentioned accelerations and vector matching would have to be possible. If, however, as some science fiction authors have imagined, the time travel is on the order of a two way portal the traveler passes through, then our collective minds must accept that such a device can simultaneously occupy not only two different "whens", but also all the different "wheres" between the starting point and end point in order to theorize that the journey emerges at the same location as the departure. This is even more absurd than contemplating the murder of your own ancestor.

I can accept the concept of travel through time as a physical reality only if I'm not expected to consider that people or objects can be transported by time travel. In other words, at some level of physical reality, it seems likely that some type of particle or energy may move in time in a fashion unlike the majority of the remaining cosmos, possibly leaping forward in time or going backward. But even my most optimistic imagination cannot accept something as organized and complex as a living being making such a journey without being shredded or homogenized by the attendant accelerations. Wonderful mental exercise for great minds, but not probable as a means of travel.
Posted by zealot144 (9 comments )
Reply Link Flag
And 'there' might be the point
Travel in time thus implies a humungeous change in energy, since
time travel has to make the universe move too. Makes sense.
Posted by Earl Benser (4310 comments )
Link Flag
No such thing as time.
Time does not exist. It is an illusion.
Posted by ordaj (338 comments )
Link Flag
When is also where
Traveling in time necessitates traveling in space as well. With all celestial objects in motion, any movement in time relative to any of these objects "when" also results in considerable displacement in that object's "where".

The earth, as example, travels over 30,000 miles every hour in it's orbit. A time displacement of even one second results in a change of location of several miles. This motion is complicated by the motion of the surface of the planet as it rotates around it's axis, the motion of the sun as it rotates within the galaxy, and the motion of the entire galaxy itself. A displacement of several years would have the time traveler pop out wherever the planet will be at the then-future location where the traveler begins. As the traveler can reasonably be expected to retain whatever vector it had at the moment of departure from it's time and location, that vector will continue and move it out of the path of the approaching target. In order to pop out of the machine where the planet was at the targeted time, great distance would have to be instantly traversed, and all vectors precisely matched, or the traveler would become a tennis ball with the planet a very fast tennis racquet.

In other words, the billiard ball would not emerge on the billiard table. It would emerge wherever the table will be at that small fraction of time required to traverse the table itself. The ball may move only a few inches relative to the table, but the table will travel several miles.

If such a machine were constructed, regardless of size, the traveler would need to compensate for all of these motions (orbit, spin, galactic displacement, etc.) precisely in order to emerge in what appears to the traveler as the same place where the journey began, which would necessitate unimaginable accelerations in order to be displaced over great distance as well as time. In other words, for H G Wells traveler to cover hundred or thousands of years, many trillions of miles would need to be traversed as well in order to not emerge in the vacuum of space where the planet will be at the moment when the traveler began the journey.

In the Contact story, Jodi Foster covers great distances, and converges with the past, all very quickly. The elapsed time from her perspective is much greater than what is seen by the outside observers. Although one can imagine the worm hole, or whatever, being flexible, like the rope of a tether ball, one still cannot escape the accelerations she and her craft would have encountered. Any person who has tried to hop up and down on a carrousel while it is rotating has experienced a tiny fraction of the problem. The floor of the carrousel is going in a circle, while the person on the platform is launched in a straight line from the point their feet leave the platform. The person touches down with a mismatched vector, and struggles to regain balance. Multiply this by millions or billions, and you can grasp the enormity of the problem.

Thus, if time travel is possible, it would of necessity be a one way trip. Any effort to kill one's progenitor would necessitate traveling a very great distance after traveling the time back. The billiard ball would emerge in some place other than where it left, and could therefore not interfere with itself.

If the time machine itself goes with the traveler, the above mentioned accelerations and vector matching would have to be possible. If, however, as some science fiction authors have imagined, the time travel is on the order of a two way portal the traveler passes through, then our collective minds must accept that such a device can simultaneously occupy not only two different "whens", but also all the different "wheres" between the starting point and end point in order to theorize that the journey emerges at the same location as the departure. This is even more absurd than contemplating the murder of your own ancestor.

I can accept the concept of travel through time as a physical reality only if I'm not expected to consider that people or objects can be transported by time travel. In other words, at some level of physical reality, it seems likely that some type of particle or energy may move in time in a fashion unlike the majority of the remaining cosmos, possibly leaping forward in time or going backward. But even my most optimistic imagination cannot accept something as organized and complex as a living being making such a journey without being shredded or homogenized by the attendant accelerations. Wonderful mental exercise for great minds, but not probable as a means of travel.
Posted by zealot144 (9 comments )
Reply Link Flag
And 'there' might be the point
Travel in time thus implies a humungeous change in energy, since
time travel has to make the universe move too. Makes sense.
Posted by Earl Benser (4310 comments )
Link Flag
No such thing as time.
Time does not exist. It is an illusion.
Posted by ordaj (338 comments )
Link Flag
Not when, but where...
If we eventually *do* discover time-travel, whether a hundred or a thousand years from now, shouldn't some of them be here, or in our past? We haven't met any time-travelers.
Posted by jcchong17 (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
possibilites
1 they dont invent it
2 they invent it but dont come to here (possibly to no time without timetravel)
3 they invent it but refuse to travel at all
4 they travel and are here... but you cant see them
5 they travel back and send arnold to fix all of bushes mistakes.
Posted by volterwd (466 comments )
Link Flag
Not when, but where...
If we eventually *do* discover time-travel, whether a hundred or a thousand years from now, shouldn't some of them be here, or in our past? We haven't met any time-travelers.
Posted by jcchong17 (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
possibilites
1 they dont invent it
2 they invent it but dont come to here (possibly to no time without timetravel)
3 they invent it but refuse to travel at all
4 they travel and are here... but you cant see them
5 they travel back and send arnold to fix all of bushes mistakes.
Posted by volterwd (466 comments )
Link Flag
R U Sure?
I've never met anyone from the CIA....at least, I don't think so. Does that mean there is no CIA?
Posted by zealot144 (9 comments )
Reply Link Flag
R U Sure?
I've never met anyone from the CIA....at least, I don't think so. Does that mean there is no CIA?
Posted by zealot144 (9 comments )
Reply Link Flag
a thankfull lack of understanding
Given the current level of human evolvement or lack thereof, the greatest thinkers on this planet have wisely chosen not to reveal all that is known about time. Such understanding would no doubt be used to create weapons more power than any atomic bomb.

"String theory" Wrong
"Wormholes" Wrong
"Warp drive" laughable
"Stephen W. Hawking conclusion" Wrong
"Space-time foam." Wrong

Stop thinking linear!
Posted by (8 comments )
Reply Link Flag
As long...
... as you know all the answers, how about sharing them with the
rest of humanity?

... or are you just a BS artist afterall ???????????????
Posted by Earl Benser (4310 comments )
Link Flag
?? Stop Thinking Linear ?? ... uhhhh
By what mechanism would one be able to "stop thinking linear" - when "thinking" is the response of "memory" to a challenge?

The predictable answer, presumably, "future thinking", which would be proof of time travel, would it not? But would this be logical, or is your logic not subject to "universal rules" as everything else is?

This is not meant to be sarcastic, but rather a challenge to your definitive "wrongs" as you indicate above.
Posted by vox365 (32 comments )
Link Flag
yes
people shouldnt restrict themselves to linear thought... but your analysis of whats right and wrong is narrow minded... they arent wrong... just unproven or unproven to be false. they fall into the meh category
Posted by volterwd (466 comments )
Link Flag
a thankfull lack of understanding
Given the current level of human evolvement or lack thereof, the greatest thinkers on this planet have wisely chosen not to reveal all that is known about time. Such understanding would no doubt be used to create weapons more power than any atomic bomb.

"String theory" Wrong
"Wormholes" Wrong
"Warp drive" laughable
"Stephen W. Hawking conclusion" Wrong
"Space-time foam." Wrong

Stop thinking linear!
Posted by (8 comments )
Reply Link Flag
As long...
... as you know all the answers, how about sharing them with the
rest of humanity?

... or are you just a BS artist afterall ???????????????
Posted by Earl Benser (4310 comments )
Link Flag
?? Stop Thinking Linear ?? ... uhhhh
By what mechanism would one be able to "stop thinking linear" - when "thinking" is the response of "memory" to a challenge?

The predictable answer, presumably, "future thinking", which would be proof of time travel, would it not? But would this be logical, or is your logic not subject to "universal rules" as everything else is?

This is not meant to be sarcastic, but rather a challenge to your definitive "wrongs" as you indicate above.
Posted by vox365 (32 comments )
Link Flag
yes
people shouldnt restrict themselves to linear thought... but your analysis of whats right and wrong is narrow minded... they arent wrong... just unproven or unproven to be false. they fall into the meh category
Posted by volterwd (466 comments )
Link Flag
dark matter
Not knowing very much, i wonder does anyone think that dark matter was created by the biblical reference of "satan swiping his tail and a third of heaven was cast away". and does this realign the so called north star for our viewing.and does this (dark matter) prevent or hinder time travel?. thanks for your time, please reply jcar992003@yahoo.com
Posted by (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
No....
Not a chance...
Posted by Earl Benser (4310 comments )
Link Flag
dark matter
Not knowing very much, i wonder does anyone think that dark matter was created by the biblical reference of "satan swiping his tail and a third of heaven was cast away". and does this realign the so called north star for our viewing.and does this (dark matter) prevent or hinder time travel?. thanks for your time, please reply jcar992003@yahoo.com
Posted by (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
No....
Not a chance...
Posted by Earl Benser (4310 comments )
Link Flag
good grief
This story is bringing out the Ludwig Plutoniums in all of us.
Posted by blizzard23 (24 comments )
Reply Link Flag
good grief
This story is bringing out the Ludwig Plutoniums in all of us.
Posted by blizzard23 (24 comments )
Reply Link Flag
 

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