Newsmaker: The man behind the Commodore 64

When people talk about the most influential names in the history of personal computers, you usually hear about Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, Bill Gates and Paul Allen, Gordon Moore, Andy Grove, and so forth.

But one name that certainly belongs in that group is Jack Tramiel, the founder of Commodore Business Machines (and later, CEO of Atari). As the man behind the PET, the Vic-20 and the Commodore 64--which may be the best-selling personal computer of all time--Tramiel may have had more influence than anyone.

That's debatable, of course. But there's no doubting the reverence Silicon Valley's elders have for Tramiel, an Auschwitz survivor and former member of the U.S. Army who decided that his future lay not in repairing typewriters as he'd done in uniform, but in building electronics.

On Monday night, hundreds of the Valley's graybeards turned out in Mountain View, Calif., for the Computer History Museum's celebration of the 25th anniversary of the Commodore 64, and there was no doubting that Tramiel was the man of the hour, not least because he rarely ventures out in public.

Among those on hand to fete Tramiel were Wozniak, IBM PC designer William Lowe, Pong designer Al Acorn, and many, many others.

During the event, Tramiel took the time to talk to CNET News.com about his most famous creation, about the current state of personal computers and about whether there really was a culture war between C64 users and Apple IIe users in the mid-1980s.

Q: What does the 25th anniversary of the Commodore 64 mean to you? Can you believe it's been 25 years?
Jack Tramiel: Yes, I live it every day.

Do you still use a Commodore?
Tramiel: Yes, the 64.

What do you use it for?
Tramiel: Games.

What's your favorite game?
Tramiel: Pac-Man.

How many hours a day do you use your C64?
Tramiel: A few minutes.

We heard that about 500 people were going to show up for this event. How does it make you feel to have such a favorable reception 25 years later?
Tramiel: I believe that Commodore was the first personal computer, and we also were able to help supply products or parts for the Apple and the Atari. Being involved in seeing it be developed, in the marketing and traveling around the world, I saw, in its first two years, that this was going to be an unbelievable hit, and that it was going to change the world. And it did change the world, and I'm proud that I was part of it.

Video: Commodore 64's silver anniversary
Celebrating one of the best-selling PCs ever.

You've said you were inspired by a trip you took to Japan and that that's what got you thinking that the future was in electronics.
Tramiel: Well, Japan is a big story, and there's no question that they're a different kind of people than we are. If they want to do something, they put their mind to it and they do it. They're very proud of their country, which we are not. I remember shipping the PET to Japan, to develop that particular market. And it was unbelievably successful in Japan. But about two years after, a Japanese company by the name of NEC decided to go into the personal computer business. That day, when they announced it, PET sales stopped, because the Japanese were willing to wait until the Japanese computer came out.

And you haven't seen the same loyalty in the American market?
Tramiel: No, because we will buy from anybody, as long as it's cheap.

But the Commodore was cheap. It cost less than $600.
Tramiel: That was one of the reasons why I made sure that we reduced the price--to make a fair profit, not to stop the imports that came into the country. And I felt very good because we did. There were very few foreign machines coming into the country. When I left Commodore, the world changed. Then, all of a sudden everybody came in because the prices went up. So I feel very responsible for that particular idea that I had, to give people a computer for the money, to make a computer for the masses, not for the classes.

And when you say people, you're not just talking businessmen. Kids could afford it if they saved up enough.
Tramiel: I wasn't thinking of businesses at all, because I didn't want to compete with IBM.

Do people still stop you to tell you their memories about the C64? There's quite a cult following out there.
Tramiel: There is, but I'm very quiet. This is the first real event which I've come to, because I don't like to be in the press. I'm quite happy if people do not know me.

Do you have any thoughts on the PC market today?
Tramiel: The PC market is very strong and it's going to become stronger. It's going to be very important how the products are being packaged from now on. The technology is there. It's about how it's packaged. I believe the smaller we make them, the more they will sell, and the easier they're going to be to use. And I think we're going in that direction.

What other computer do you use (besides a Commodore)?
Tramiel: A Dell.

What do you think it was about the Commodore 64 that made it so popular across the board?
Tramiel: Because I brought everything into it. I brought in sound, video, a full keyboard, and color. It was easy to use. And there was a tremendous following after that, supplying software and everything else. And I did not rely only on the United States. Through my previous connections with the adding machines and typewriters I was selling, I already had a network of dealers around the world. So it was easy to go back to them with computers. I just had to convert the dealers to understanding that this was a consumer product. This is what happened. The young people were able to buy it because it was very affordable.

How influential was the C64's BASIC for future programmers?
Tramiel: Every time I went to fairs around the world, especially the fair in Hannover, Germany (CeBit, one of the most important shows for electronics in the world), kids, ages 12 to 20 would come around to show me their bank books. They said, "Tramiel, I made over $200,000 this year selling software." And that gave me a real kick. Not only did I make my employees rich, but I even made young people rich. They knew that if they worked hard and used the BASIC to design software, they could make money.

When I was in high school, it seemed like there was almost a culture war between users of the Commodore 64, the Apple IIe, and the Atari 800. What do you think was different about the machines and the people who used them?
Tramiel: The only difference was the price. Because it seems that in this country, if you sell something cheaper, it can't be as good. If it's more expensive, and it's the same product, it must be a better product. That didn't stop me. I still wanted to sell it for a low price. But if a person pays three times as much for a computer, he has to be proud of it, because he paid for it. He can't call himself stupid.

So you think the computers were on par with each other?
Tramiel: Each one. Even today, they're the same. If you take an HP, or a Dell, they're all the same.

But it seemed like people had loyalties back then, the same way people have loyalties today between Mac and PC.
Tramiel: There's absolutely no loyalty. One has 95 percent and the other 5 percent...But I believe that what Apple's doing today is one of the smartest things that they can do. They're becoming a consumer company, selling much more than computers, to everyone.

What computers or operating systems came along since the C64 that remind you of it?
Tramiel: Nothing reminds me of it. We live in a different world, a much more developed world today. The computer business today is different than it was in 1975. In some ways it's good, and in some ways it's bad. But the important part is that we all work hard to bring it to the way it is, and people say, "How can you live without a computer?" which is wonderful.

CNET News.com's Kara Tsuboi contributed to this report.

More Newsmakers

[inachu]

I still like my amiga 500

Amiga 500 still plays lots of the c-64 games.

[krosavcheg]

Frodo, Vice, Magic64, A64

A stock A500 ? No it doesn't. To emulate C64 at half-decent speeds a 68020 accelerator or better is/was required. Exceptions exist of course, a few games run at usable speeds if using less-than-accurate emulation.
Ports of C64 games for the Amiga is another matter entirely.

--
bugmenot-user

[inachu]

I still like my amiga 500

Amiga 500 still plays lots of the c-64 games.

[krosavcheg]

Frodo, Vice, Magic64, A64

A stock A500 ? No it doesn't. To emulate C64 at half-decent speeds a 68020 accelerator or better is/was required. Exceptions exist of course, a few games run at usable speeds if using less-than-accurate emulation.
Ports of C64 games for the Amiga is another matter entirely.

--
bugmenot-user

[g3 creative]

Commodore 64

The Amiga was my very first personal computer and it is still in the loft. I also a Mac Classic.

Memories.

Dave Mac

G3 Creative

[g3 creative]

Commodore 64

The Amiga was my very first personal computer and it is still in the loft. I also a Mac Classic.

Memories.

Dave Mac

G3 Creative

[zenjazzplayer]

Videos of my C-64 art from 1985

I created the content of the video show "This!" episodes 2 through 4 on a Commodore 64 computer in 1985 using the Koala Pad graphics tablet and C-64 BASIC. I also wrote and performed the music for the videos.

You can view these 3 videos of mine at www.savageheart.com (scroll down to the Videos section). They are also on YouTube at www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=zenjazzplayer

I have 2 C-64s, 1541 and 1571 disk drives, and other hardware and software (the 1701 monitor finally stopped working in 1995). They are in boxes. Some day I'll set them up again.

[zenjazzplayer]

Videos of my C-64 art from 1985

I created the content of the video show "This!" episodes 2 through 4 on a Commodore 64 computer in 1985 using the Koala Pad graphics tablet and C-64 BASIC. I also wrote and performed the music for the videos.

You can view these 3 videos of mine at www.savageheart.com (scroll down to the Videos section). They are also on YouTube at www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=zenjazzplayer

I have 2 C-64s, 1541 and 1571 disk drives, and other hardware and software (the 1701 monitor finally stopped working in 1995). They are in boxes. Some day I'll set them up again.

[Ilgaz]

All C64 users know how to make that screenshot

10 PRINT "Computer History Museum"
20 GOTO 10

Ask any average person today how to display a window
containing their name on Mac or PC. They won't be able to
answer.

That was the reason of success for 8bit computers and their
users. Everyone one way or another had to know how computer
truly works and generally had an idea about the logic making
programs work.

[Anon-Y-mous]

I can do that in fewer bits ;-)

10 ?"Computer History Museum":RUN

[Ilgaz]

All C64 users know how to make that screenshot

10 PRINT "Computer History Museum"
20 GOTO 10

Ask any average person today how to display a window
containing their name on Mac or PC. They won't be able to
answer.

That was the reason of success for 8bit computers and their
users. Everyone one way or another had to know how computer
truly works and generally had an idea about the logic making
programs work.

[Anon-Y-mous]

I can do that in fewer bits ;-)

10 ?"Computer History Museum":RUN

[Ilgaz]

Amiga did an evil thing, spoiled us

We , A500 users saw Multi tasking, multiple resolutions and
dynamic loading libraries, 32bit computing way too early.

That is why it is really hard to impress Amiga users even today.

Amiga could preview documents it has no idea about back in
1991 thanks to "data types" library. Now Apple and MS packs the
exact same feature, add couple of direct3d/opengl tricks and
people say "Wow".

If you speak about playing a 3d game on a Machine with 8Mhz
CPU and no 3d acceleration... Well don't :)

[Ilgaz]

Amiga did an evil thing, spoiled us

We , A500 users saw Multi tasking, multiple resolutions and
dynamic loading libraries, 32bit computing way too early.

That is why it is really hard to impress Amiga users even today.

Amiga could preview documents it has no idea about back in
1991 thanks to "data types" library. Now Apple and MS packs the
exact same feature, add couple of direct3d/opengl tricks and
people say "Wow".

If you speak about playing a 3d game on a Machine with 8Mhz
CPU and no 3d acceleration... Well don't :)

[MoonDragn]

Loyalty

He's wrong about loyalty. I was very loyal to Commodore for so long. I upgraded from a C-64 to a C-128 and then the Amiga 500, and the 1200. It wasn't til the company basically went out of the computer business that I stopped thinking the future was an Amiga.

They made alot of mistakes marketing the Amiga. At the time it was one of the most advanced computers out there. If they had marketed it correctly, it would have taken over the industry. It was years beyond the technology of the Apples and the IBM pcs.

They should have been smart and let 3rd party people make parts for the Amiga, and kept only the rights to the OS that runs on it. Then the competition would have driven the price down and made it popular.

They would have made money in selling the OS like bill gates did and the productivity software that went with it.

[jgraebner]

Amiga

Note that Tramiel actually didn't have anything to do with the Amiga. By the time Commodore bought out Amiga (which was originally an independent company), Tramiel had left the company and purchased Atari. Tramiel was actually behind the Atari ST, which was generally the main competitor for the Amiga at the time.

One interesting irony is that many of the designers of the Amiga came from Atari originally. As a result, the Amiga was largely designed by people that had worked on the Atari 400/800 while the Atari ST was largely designed by people that had worked on the VIC-20/Commodore 64.

[MoonDragn]

Loyalty

He's wrong about loyalty. I was very loyal to Commodore for so long. I upgraded from a C-64 to a C-128 and then the Amiga 500, and the 1200. It wasn't til the company basically went out of the computer business that I stopped thinking the future was an Amiga.

They made alot of mistakes marketing the Amiga. At the time it was one of the most advanced computers out there. If they had marketed it correctly, it would have taken over the industry. It was years beyond the technology of the Apples and the IBM pcs.

They should have been smart and let 3rd party people make parts for the Amiga, and kept only the rights to the OS that runs on it. Then the competition would have driven the price down and made it popular.

They would have made money in selling the OS like bill gates did and the productivity software that went with it.

[jgraebner]

Amiga

Note that Tramiel actually didn't have anything to do with the Amiga. By the time Commodore bought out Amiga (which was originally an independent company), Tramiel had left the company and purchased Atari. Tramiel was actually behind the Atari ST, which was generally the main competitor for the Amiga at the time.

One interesting irony is that many of the designers of the Amiga came from Atari originally. As a result, the Amiga was largely designed by people that had worked on the Atari 400/800 while the Atari ST was largely designed by people that had worked on the VIC-20/Commodore 64.

[Andy kaufman]

Anyone remember "Jack Attacks"?

Jack would attack some employee through their cubical wall if they tried to make a Commodore part faster like the 1541 drive, and Jack would attack them to get them to stop because he wanted it cheaper. That was why the 1541 drive was so slow, it was made cheap, but not faster which would have cost more.

Originally the C64 was a tape drive computer, and they added the floppy drive later.

They turned it into a video game:
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.download-full-games.com/c64/games/jack_attack.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.download-full-games.com/c64/games/jack_attack.html</a>

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiLjlzDi7_0" target="_newWindow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiLjlzDi7_0</a>

[Andy kaufman]

Anyone remember "Jack Attacks"?

Jack would attack some employee through their cubical wall if they tried to make a Commodore part faster like the 1541 drive, and Jack would attack them to get them to stop because he wanted it cheaper. That was why the 1541 drive was so slow, it was made cheap, but not faster which would have cost more.

Originally the C64 was a tape drive computer, and they added the floppy drive later.

They turned it into a video game:
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.download-full-games.com/c64/games/jack_attack.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.download-full-games.com/c64/games/jack_attack.html</a>

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiLjlzDi7_0" target="_newWindow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiLjlzDi7_0</a>

[pugster]

I liked commodore 64

Commodore 64 was the pc that brought computers to the common people. Definately the computer at its day.

[pugster]

I liked commodore 64

Commodore 64 was the pc that brought computers to the common people. Definately the computer at its day.

[danielz40]

Atari and Jack

To me, Jack led Atari through the PC revolution. He was outselling Apple Macs in Europe. He had a following. The only problem I saw was what Amiga saw (and they saw it too late also) was the name. Atari was viewed as a games computer because of the name. The first thing they should have done was change the name away from Atari. Other than that, the whole industry changed my life's heading, beginning with the VIC 20. I was lucky to be involved in the time.

[danielz40]

Atari and Jack

To me, Jack led Atari through the PC revolution. He was outselling Apple Macs in Europe. He had a following. The only problem I saw was what Amiga saw (and they saw it too late also) was the name. Atari was viewed as a games computer because of the name. The first thing they should have done was change the name away from Atari. Other than that, the whole industry changed my life's heading, beginning with the VIC 20. I was lucky to be involved in the time.

[rchacin1]

What about VIC-20

I learned programming on a VIC-20. It had 5K RAM and I installed a cartridge to upgrade it to 12 KB. Today I have a samll web developement firm and my cell phone has 64 MB RAM.

My own version of Kaboom! was kind of popular among other local users. It was freeware althought the term didn't exist by then.

[Proustian]

The VIC-20 was great

and too bad the C64 couldn't run VIC-20 software.

Here is a video of William Shatner promoting the Commodore VIC-20 for you:
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZFx7uDWt-UY&#38;search=shatner" target="_newWindow">http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZFx7uDWt-UY&#38;search=shatner</a>

[rchacin1]

What about VIC-20

I learned programming on a VIC-20. It had 5K RAM and I installed a cartridge to upgrade it to 12 KB. Today I have a samll web developement firm and my cell phone has 64 MB RAM.

My own version of Kaboom! was kind of popular among other local users. It was freeware althought the term didn't exist by then.

[Proustian]

The VIC-20 was great

and too bad the C64 couldn't run VIC-20 software.

Here is a video of William Shatner promoting the Commodore VIC-20 for you:
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZFx7uDWt-UY&#38;search=shatner" target="_newWindow">http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZFx7uDWt-UY&#38;search=shatner</a>

[Goodbye Helicopter]

C=64

Yeah, I had a C=64, my first pc. It was THE machine that
actually kept the home video game industry alive until the later
80's more powerful computers and more splintered market and
8-bit Nintendo (famicom) appeared.

I'll never ever forget trying to load the game Crush, Crumble &#38;
Chomp from the tape drive, only to have it take over an hour to
load (both 30 min sides of the tape) and then have it fail to
properly load about 60-70% of the time...
We bought the floppy drive, that shoebox that would overheat
and cease functioning after an hour. Use it too often, and the
alignment crystal would be out of whack.
The old trick was to take the poorly designed case's top off to
make the drive run cooler, problem then was dust.

Even had the (then) revolutionary GEOS operating system, a GUI
for C=64 and C=128 computers. Trouble is, it took forever just
to get it up and running and then, nobody knew what to do with
it back then.

me I have a vague nostalgia for the old C=64, but I don't really
miss it. To0 unreliable a machine.

Commodore was doomed. Not future thinking enough.
Amiga was fabulous, but I could never afford one.
By the time the prices came down enough on those, they world
had unfortunately gone to the pc xt/at

It's difficult to believe, but true that those Amigas were not to far
off from where NeXT would eventually go and later become this
wonderful OS X....

[Goodbye Helicopter]

C=64

Yeah, I had a C=64, my first pc. It was THE machine that
actually kept the home video game industry alive until the later
80's more powerful computers and more splintered market and
8-bit Nintendo (famicom) appeared.

I'll never ever forget trying to load the game Crush, Crumble &#38;
Chomp from the tape drive, only to have it take over an hour to
load (both 30 min sides of the tape) and then have it fail to
properly load about 60-70% of the time...
We bought the floppy drive, that shoebox that would overheat
and cease functioning after an hour. Use it too often, and the
alignment crystal would be out of whack.
The old trick was to take the poorly designed case's top off to
make the drive run cooler, problem then was dust.

Even had the (then) revolutionary GEOS operating system, a GUI
for C=64 and C=128 computers. Trouble is, it took forever just
to get it up and running and then, nobody knew what to do with
it back then.

me I have a vague nostalgia for the old C=64, but I don't really
miss it. To0 unreliable a machine.

Commodore was doomed. Not future thinking enough.
Amiga was fabulous, but I could never afford one.
By the time the prices came down enough on those, they world
had unfortunately gone to the pc xt/at

It's difficult to believe, but true that those Amigas were not to far
off from where NeXT would eventually go and later become this
wonderful OS X....

[waveboy]

actual designers: Russell and Yannes

Jack's ego doesn't allow any credit for the guys that actually designed the thing. It was brilliant and brilliantly cheap!

See the whole story on c64 site:
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.c64.com/articles/spectacular_rise_and_fall_of_commodore_the.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.c64.com/articles/spectacular_rise_and_fall_of_commodore_the.html</a>

"With such a tight schedule, Bob Yannes and Bob Russell began laying out the architecture of the computer. "Bob [Yannes] and I sat down and came up with the hardware architecture," recalls Russell. Yannes was an assiduous engineer by nature. For two short days, Yannes worked in his office and the drafting area to design the architecture for the VIC-40. "It was a pretty easy architecture," says Yannes. "I just designed the most minimal system I could with the fewest number of components. There's not a whole lot of stuff in there. There's the VIC chip, the SID chip, and there's 64K of DRAM."

[waveboy]

actual designers: Russell and Yannes

Jack's ego doesn't allow any credit for the guys that actually designed the thing. It was brilliant and brilliantly cheap!

See the whole story on c64 site:
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.c64.com/articles/spectacular_rise_and_fall_of_commodore_the.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.c64.com/articles/spectacular_rise_and_fall_of_commodore_the.html</a>

"With such a tight schedule, Bob Yannes and Bob Russell began laying out the architecture of the computer. "Bob [Yannes] and I sat down and came up with the hardware architecture," recalls Russell. Yannes was an assiduous engineer by nature. For two short days, Yannes worked in his office and the drafting area to design the architecture for the VIC-40. "It was a pretty easy architecture," says Yannes. "I just designed the most minimal system I could with the fewest number of components. There's not a whole lot of stuff in there. There's the VIC chip, the SID chip, and there's 64K of DRAM."

[zxcv1234zxcv]

What "culture war"?

Maybe it's because of where I lived, but no one I knew (among Apple and C64 owners) looked down their nose at the other's computer. Both groups knew the other machine's value: the Commodore was a multimedia machine (before the word was coined) and the Apple was a tweaking/machine language computer with its open architecture. Each had its strengths and weaknesses. What gave the Apple the edge was its superior disk drive system.

Many people I knew did not like (but did not put down) the Atari 800 because of its perception as a "games only" machine (and the awful membrane keyboard of the 400), but looking back, it was a worthy machine.

Pity me, though: my old man refused to listen in 1981 and bought a TI-99 instead of an Apple or C64. It gathered dust for two years before he listened and bought an Apple II+ clone.