Seeing fakes, angry traders confront eBay

The heart of eBay's business model is being challenged by users who have discovered knockoff products being sold on the site.
The New York Times

The story "Seeing fakes, angry traders confront eBay" published January 29, 2006 at 10:11 AM is no longer available on CNET News.

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[PiratePete]

Why is it always someone else's fault?

Yes, fraud does occur on eBay, as it does occur every other marketplace on this planet. It is, unfortunately, a case of buyer-beware and doing the appropriate amount of homework.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. But why make attempts to punish eBay for simply providing a forum that not only provides sellers a means to market their goods to the world; but also a means for buyers to locate items that they may not find anywhere local to them.

Isn't this just another attempt to blame someone else for your own poor judgement?

America would be a far better place if they could elminate the ability to sue another person!

[Earl Benser]

Ebay tries to present itself as a quality operation....

but does nothing to ensure that attribute. Basically, Ebay is an
automated rip-off as far as I'm concerned. I get better prices,
buying or selling, with just local contacts. Ebay is a waste of time
and money. No one should be surprised at the embedded fraud in
Ebay.

[ballssalty]

Because eBay is the problem

Quote: "Isn't this just another attempt to blame someone else for your own poor judgement?"

Poor judgement doesn't enter into it. The knock-offs are artificially devaluing the authentic merchandise. So legitimate sellers are losing money on their merchandise while eBay never loses money. But ultimately they will. They will drive legitimate business away and eBay will become known as eFraud and some bright entrepreneur will see the hole in the market and take advantage of it and steal away eBay's business, just like Google took search from Yahoo!.

[Eskiegirl302]

Agreed that fivolous lawsuits are....

are not a good thing. However, if someone takes advantage of you, of you for a good chunk of money, or if you have a doctor who performs an operation, who was not qualified to do so, and really messes you up, if you have no recourse for that loss, then someone who is on the wrong side of morality and the law, just goes free to do it again.

This is not how the law of the land in our country works. There are fair acts of trade laws, and they are put there for people to abide by and also for people who have been taken advantage of.

So law suits are necessary. I know if someone ripped me off or someone that I know for a good chunk of money, I would be a bit frazzled. Even when you take the best precautions that you know, there are those who are able to convince you otherwise. For that I say, take them to court.

[zeroplane]

Another 3rd party service?

There are already 3rd party services for listing ebay items and transacting email purchases. Why shouldn't there be a verify authenticity service. Sure, it would take more time and require more money to verify your products. But generally only high priced items would warrent such action anywhere.

I mean, come on I bet the jewlery she is talking about is work only dollars. It isn't like we are talking about thousands of dollars or even hundreds. It is the responsibility of the buyer to also know if they are buying fake crap.

I do think that perhaps a rating system should also be used. I mean they have one now, if buyers are pissed because the items are fake they should rate accordingly.

What is the problem?

[Griff in Fairbanks]

Fraud beyond knock-offs ...

eBay also permits bait-and-switch sellers. I purchased an item
using eBay's Buy It Now option and paid through PayPal
consistent with all terms in the seller's listing. The seller
subsequently attempted to impose additional conditions and
fees not in the original listings.

Even though the seller was in blatant violation of eBay's posted
policies, eBay basically shrugged it shoulders. When i attempted
to post negative feedback, eBay's software mysteriously
malfunctioned. Furthermore, the seller continues to post
identical listings, apparently unabated by eBay.

[shant sherbetdjian]

Network economies aren't all fun and games..

Fraud is one of the downsides of exploiting a large network of users. One can't take the positive effects of network externalities w/out the negatives. It comes with the territory. What should ebay do? Make escrow easier(ie:free) and give people more tools to self-police.
- shant sherbetdjian

[gamergirl098]

WOW...CHECK THIS OUT

WOW...CHECK THIS OUT. The SILVER BOOT From The "BLACK TIE & BOOTs BALL"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6601462033&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1

[kieranmullen]

Ebay, a great place for stolen stuff!

If you took out all the stolen stuff and counterfeit items, that would certainly make a dent in ebay's profits. Why risk selling stolen stuff locally when you can sell online?

KM

[Dead Soulman]

You're Missing the point

The problem with buying items online is that it's almost impossible for a buyer to tell if an item is original or counterfeit. Sure, the price would be a fast giveaway. But, what if enough people are falling for it and soon the item is selling for a price close to what an original would go for. Isn't that what a deal is?

Now, when one holds an item in their hands, it's usually easy to tell if the item is original or not. I mean, to someone who is familiar with the product. What happens online??? You can't tell if the item is legitimate or not. Going by a couple of pictures. There's no way. Especially to someone who is new to using the product/item.

So, yes! eBay has a responsibility to look out after their customers. I got burned once by eBay and PayPal when a buyer kept my merchandise and received his money back claiming to them he never received the merchandise. This was after he had written to me and said "he had received it" and would eventually pay me back. It's been almost 3 years now. I basically got the "tough luck" treatment from eBay and PayPal. I still deal with both companies. But, I make sure my items have delivery comfirmation and insurance. However, this would not protect a buyer from getting a "fake" item. And, this is why eBay, as the middleman, needs to be held accountable. It's not as like they're involved in the process for free. They get paid by the seller and the buyer. Isn't that "double dipping"???
There should be some kind of protection.

[markusfarkus]

But how?

I certainly can understand that those who have been burned with transactions through eBay might feel eBay should be responsible. But how is eBay supposed to monitor what 180 million users are buying and selling at any one time? In order to do this eBay would have to inspect and verify each item being sold which would add to the cost of each transaction. It's an entirely different business model.

[locoHost]

Kinda like Kazaa and other P2P services?

Isn't this very similar the issues with Kazaa and other P2P media trading sites? If what the P2P facilitators are doing is illegal or shady, then eBay is illegal or at the very least shady. If eBay is legit, then P2P trading sites are legit. Am I right?

[BobJones56]

Ebay is a business...

They want to make money, and they get that from listings. They don't care if you've been ripped off. Do a search for "Mark West". He sold tickets to sporting events on eBay, taking people for over $200K. I was one of the early victims. Despite over 60 complaints, with hard evidence, police reports, and the loss of $65,000 eBay continued to allow this seller to post tickets.

It was only when we got the press and State Attorney Generals office, involved that eBay revoked his account. By this time he had scammed people out of $200K and skipped town. The buyers on eBay do not matter. Its easy enough for them to pay someone $10/hour to read you their policy, email you the standard boilerplate, and tell you they are looking into it. They do this enough, and they know most people will just give up.

[yrrahxob]

Go Somewhere Else

The way I look at it, if you don't like the way eBay does business, go somewhere else. That's the way it should be. They are not selling the goods nor do they have the resources to police every item sold.

[Earl Benser]

Most lawyers would have a field day.....

.... with the 'I didn't know" excuse. It didn't work at Nuremberg, it's
not like to work now.

[dysonl]

Here is the Case

The point is that these easily accessible fakes drive down the price of the original. The fakes pollute the market of genuine goods. That is the whole case.

You should read the article once more.

[Below Meigh]

Here lies an opportunity for Google or MS...

Time to start a better, secure, friendlier auction site.

Though I've not had to deal with fakes, I do see that eBay hides behind "we are only a venue" stance all too often. They take a piece for posting, then they take some for payment (paypal), have an antiquated (pun) feedback (rating) system, and don't care about seller or buyer (one can just get another creditcard # and email address and start all over).

Creditcard companies missed the boat on this business. eBay is now a target to be aimed for. I guarantee half of their customers would leave for a more secure, reliable and cheaper alternative.

Until then, how much feedback do you have (and does one care)? Oh, and how much to ship?

[Michael G.]

It's a Barnum and Baily World...

In the antiques business, examination of an item is critical---those that have watched "Antiques Roadshow" on PBS should be aware of the necesssity of examining an item closely, as there are often reproductions and frauds. While eBay is a good place to find a particular item, it has its flaws in that the item cannot be examined firsthand, as to quality or value.

Ultimately it is the consumer that must be careful when it comes to purchasing certain items, such as antique jewelry or furniture, where there is a high tendency for reproduction and fraud. eBay cannot be expected to be experts on products in every field. They have not the time nor the expertise to examine every item even if they could, nor do they have the items themselves to inspect and ensure quality.

As in all things, it comes down to practical, careful consumerism and avoiding known hucksters, cheats, and frauds. eBay should be responsible, to a certain point---if a certain dealer is selling items consistently that are fakes, they should be pulled from eBay and not allowed to sell. To allow consistently fraudulent items to sell is bad for eBay's reputation, and it discredits other truly reputable dealers that have something to sell.

[tamlung]

Don't push my cost up

I use eBay from time to time to purchase electronics (chargers, flash drives, hard drive enclosures, etc.) My typical purchases are not subject to frauds and fakes. Nevertheless, if all those people who are stupid enough to bid on jewelry and collectibles on an effectively blind auction demand that eBay make sure everything is legitimate, then the cost of doing business in this marketplace is going to be astronomical.

Sure, it's bad that people are getting ripped off. My opinion is that you guys should stop looking for that stuff on eBay! There's nothing that can be done that will not cost a fortune. I don't care about the fraudulent merchandise you unwittingly bid on! But the costs of checking the legitimacy of the collector products may be pushed over to the products I bid on. It will crank up the cost of the things I want.

I don't care! Don't make my costs higher!

[Rusdude]

Partially valid

First of all, I agree that it's hard for authentic sellers to compete with lower-priced counterfeit goods.

Having said that, here's a rule-of-thumb people should follow when buying goods on eBay: if you aren't sure about something (condition, authenticity, etc.), ASK SELLER A QUESTION! I mean, would you rather spend two minutes typing a message or spend days dealing with seller/eBay/PayPal if something goes wrong?

I'm a PowerSeller and I can't begin to tell you how many times people bid/buy before reading an auction description! The prime example is "wholesale lists" being sold under titles like "PLASMA HDTV SONY" (and the like) where there's a usually a small-print that says "bidding for list only". Sometimes it can be very hard since scammers put a lot of text, etc., but even us legit sellers have experienced cases when some person buys an item without knowing details that are plainly listed.