Patriot Act may be renewed without reforms

(continued from previous page)

One portion that has drawn scrutiny is section 215, which permits secret court orders to be used to obtain records or "tangible items" from any person or organization if the FBI claims a link to terrorism. The recipient of the secret order is gagged, and disclosing its existence is punished by a prison term. Section 215 is set to expire on Dec. 31.

Another is the portion of the Patriot Act that requires Internet service providers and any other type of communication provider--including telephone companies--to comply with secret "National Security Letters" from the FBI. Those letters can ask for information about subscribers--including home addresses, what telephone calls were made, e-mail subject lines and logs of what Web sites were visited.

Such letters are not new: Before the Patriot Act was enacted, they could be used in investigations of suspected terrorists and spies. But after the change to the law, the FBI needed only to say that a letter may be "relevant" to a terrorist-related investigation. No court approval is required.

The 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals heard arguments on Nov. 2 about the constitutionality of National Security Letters--which, under current law, don't even permit the recipient to consult an attorney. That portion of the Patriot Act is not scheduled to expire.

Kevin Bankston, a staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, said the current debate over the Patriot Act is important but ultimately limited because even the proposed modifications are modest. "To some extent it feels like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic," Bankston said. "At the end, it's still going to be the Patriot Act. It's going to be a broad enhancement of police power, of law enforcement and investigative powers."

CNET News.com's Anne Broache contributed to this report.

[Pete Bardo]

Patriot My A...

Calling this the "Patriot Act" is insane, but it sure puts the pressure on our Senators and Representatives. The act does nothing to protect me from terrorist attacks, will it severly impacts my civil rights. Secret search documents? Can't even consult a lawyer? Take my stuff and tell me later?

Any true patriot would object to this bill--the whole thing, not just the parts outlined in this article.

If we give up just one freedom, just one of our rights, no matter how insignificant, we have already lost the fight.

Congratulations to the Republicans bave enough to take a stand against this bill.

[raross]

HA

The way I look at it is if you're not doing anything wrong then dont worry about it.

Infact this bill has proved to work against terroism, so much that Tony Blair is trying to pass something like the patriot act after the subway bombings.

[aabcdefghij987654321]

A headline from the other side of this page.

"Tens of thousands mistakenly matched to terrorist watch lists."

Our best hope at this point is that the incompetency of our government will protect us from its actions.

[zanxxx]

Congressional Cowards

The Patriot Act ( George Orwell would be proud!) is a free pass issued by Congress to the FBI and other "intelligence" agencies to carry out fishing expeditions against any American. No evidence of connection to terrorism is need to proceed, legal oversite is removed or greatly reduced. Virtually nothing in this collection of laws will prevent terrorism but rest assured political tampering and abuse will be irresistable. The original act was passed in a rush after 9/11 with virtually no debate or deliberation. While the present administration receives failing grades from the 9/11 Commission for it's efforts in reform for really safeguarding this country from terror it instead lobbies for essentially tearing up the Constitution.
Ben Franklin once said that those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither!

[heystoopid]

The laws of perception!

It takes a very strong man or woman in politics to get past heavy handed innuendo and misinformation that is claimed to be fact that is stock in hand of the current Republican Party dirty political tricks lead by the redoubtable Karl Rove the shyster machiavellian dealer! No one in the current house of congress, has the fortitude to stand up to this bully's slick third party arms length attack tactics, based on little credible information sprayed out like "The Stark Report", printed by sucked in dumbed down tv & news reporters failing to verify sources, Bristish Sunday Tabloid Vacuous and Empty Style! The current congress is full of wimpish peoples representatives, who are scared, of their own shadows with many skeletons in the closets(payola/graft or other!). Oh well, the only thing missing from this scare tatic act is executive order 9066 and Tule Lake style detention centres to house, the new malcontents who believe in freedom and democracy, since most prisons are running at 15% overcapacity these days!

[aabcdefghij987654321]

some interesting statistics

"most prisons are running at 15% overcapacity these days!"
1. The US locks up a higher percentage of its citizens than any other country on earth.
2. "US drug policy is in a state of moral and humanitarian crisis, shaming us before history: Half a million nonviolent drug offenders clog our prisons and jails. Mandatory minimum sentences and inflexible sentencing guidelines condemn numerous low-level offenders to years or decades behind bars, often based solely on the word of compensated, confidential informants." (from the archives of DrCNet.) The Patriot Act is being used daily to prosecute these citizens.
3. Our government has created a legal juggernaut that destroys almost all those who are entrapped in its machinations.
We are in the path of a group of power hungry individuals that will stop at nothing to achieve their goals.
Since the advent of data processing, I hold little hope that the individual has the power to effectively protest without consequence.

why innovate? they will steal anything you make....

I am trying to start a business... if this gets renewed I am leaving

[System Tyrant]

It's the peoples Government.

If you don't like what they are doing stand together and stop them. If they try to take a neighbor, stand in their way.

Our Government is only as strong as we (the people) allow it to be.

[Gleeplewinky]

A government can be more powerful than we allow it to be...

... at which point, the general public is made
to suffer until they snap and overthrow the
government, or the country is invaded by someone
that's the lesser of two evils.

It's the former that gave birth to the USA, and
may ultimately be the one that sees it replaced.

[KittyAW]

Preference Against Initiators of Force

There is no such thing as a "people's government". Governments are in the business of power, creating and maintaining it by legalized initiation of force - which those in charge have decreed is permissible. If you want to stop the harm done by governments you need to understand where the *real* power lies.

It is the enforcers of all the enormous number of government laws and regulations who are the real creators of harm. Without such enforcers - people willing to initiate force on others - and those who directly support them, the legislators in Congress (and their equivalent in every state, county and town in this country and others) are powerless. They could issue laws, decrees, edicts, etc. until the paper stood miles high, but without the enforcers no one would be harmed - unless crushed by the falling pile of paper.

My strong recommendation is to have no voluntary association with government enforcers and their direct supporters - employees of all policing agencies, taxing agencies, regulatory agencies. Deal with such people only when it cannot be avoided. Don't include them as friends and close associates and let it be known why you are doing so - enforcers of the state are its power and you do not agree or support the initiation of force at home or abroad. To do otherwise is to be in contradiction with one's stated goals. I (and husband Paul Wakfer) call this social preferencing (also known as discrimination) - a wise and useful practice both against and for association with individuals based on their actions and ideas. See "Social Preferencing - Evaluation and Choice of Association; A Method for Influence" <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://selfsip.org/focus/preferencing.html" target="_newWindow">http://selfsip.org/focus/preferencing.html</a>

**Kitty Antonik Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://morelife.org" target="_newWindow">http://morelife.org</a>
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
Self-Sovereign Individual Project - <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://selfsip.org" target="_newWindow">http://selfsip.org</a>
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty &#38; social contracting

[aabcdefghij987654321]

Stand in their way?

Remember Tianammen Square? Standing in the way of a tank is brave but foolhardy. Our freedoms are more at risk today than any time in our history since the American Revolution.
"No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." --Mark Twain (1866)

[casper2004]

Can you say King George?

The Patriot Act was made up years ago but was shelved waiting for a terrorist attack when a Bush is President so they can be the ones to let us have it. They wouldn't let Clinton put it out there because he wasn't the war President the shadow government wanted. The act in itself will be the very thing that turns us into a third world country, and the Bush family will be in charge.

[oldAndGray]

The Communist Act you mean

There is nothing patriotic about not questioning authority. We have spent trillions of dollars in a cold war against communism and now it appears that the KGB has changed their name. They are now known as The Republican Party.

[Gleeplewinky]

That's not fair...

... the KGB never liked the Nazis. Bush himself
has paraphrased a number of statements of nazi
leaders in his speeches. You wouldn't have seen
the KGB stoop that low.

[Gleeplewinky]

Patriot Act necessary to hide incompetence...

By many measures, we have today one of the most
corrupt and incompetent governments this country
has ever seen. Partisans would like to point the
finger at the otehr guy, but, honestly it's a
bipartisan phenomenon.

The GAO had issued a report a while back that
had pointed out that the current administration
has classified a much higher proportion of
documents than any that has preceded -- even in
a time of war, and that the majority of those
documents could not be reasonably assumed to
contain any information related to national
security. The conclusion was that the majority
of classified material was so designated simply
to avoid public scrutiny and accountability.

I've never really seen the mainstream press put
any focus on the rapid decline in government
accountability, renewed cronyism, mercantilism,
or even the emerging trend towards censorship of
public records and astroturfing (both foreign
and domestic) propganda is touched on now and
again but never made a big deal of. Even when
"independent news" reports written by
politicians to bolster their causes precipitate
a lawsuit, it's swept under the table in the
press almost as soon as it comes out.

I can only conclude that people don't care.
Perhaps where ignorance is bliss, it is folly to
be wise. Perhaps that's why we've elected the
gaggle of buffoons we have today. The best the
rest of us can hope for is that we earn enough
money that we can buy one before we become
desaparacidos.

[casper2004]

Stalin or whoever it was, said so himself

We the voters don't elect anyone. It's the counters who do it. They just have voting day to make us believe we're actually doing something.

[agreddon]

Defense of liberty

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive." -- Thomas Jefferson

It appears that our government has failed in the defense of liberty, and blurred it by talking about the "war on terrorism", a war which is akin to the war on drugs, no achievable goal, no time table, and no limits on the power of government. That leaves it to the people to defend our liberty and remind those in charge that the power lies and always has lain with us, the people.

[aabcdefghij987654321]

Revolution? How?

I see many complaining about the loss of freedoms and the responsibility to defend it. I question whether force is a viable option for the defender in today's world. Since the advent of data processing, I believe it is much more difficult to challenge the powers that be. Our only hope is that technicians such as ourselves can pull the plug. Pandora's box...?

[ben masel]

Talking point to scare your GOP Rep

"Do you really want to leave this much power to an Attorney
General appointed by Hillary Clinton?"

[casper2004]

I wouldn't even want Hillary cleaning toilets

Hillary Clinton wants to have a law making it illegal to desecrate the american flag. Now, the way I look at it, is, if you bought the flag with your own money you should be allowed to do with it what you want on yor own property. If you're renting an apartment, forget about it, the land isn't yours.

[KittyAW]

Enforcers of Government are the Problem

The Patriot Act, like all the thousands of other piece of paper issued by legislators in US Congress and its counterparts in other countries (and also in states/provinces, counties, cities/towns, etc.), is just words until those who are willing to initiate force upon others do so. Without these enforcers (and those who directly support them) the paper these laws, edicts, regulations, etc. are written on are just that - paper. It is the enforcers who create the harm. These individuals are willing to take money to prevent/interfere with people engaging in voluntary acts that the parties have determined to be of mutual benefit (eg. purchase and use air transportation from a company selling and providing it, communicate with others who want to be communicated with, etc.).

Imagine large numbers of current government enforcers resigning their positions because significant numbers of others will not freely associate with them otherwise. The influencing power of discriminating against people whose actions are unacceptable is greater than most realize. See "Social Preferencing - Evaluation and Choice of Association; A Method for Influence" <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://selfsip.org/focus/preferencing.html" target="_newWindow">http://selfsip.org/focus/preferencing.html</a> It is only in today's society where tolerance is preached as a virtue that evil - initiation of force - is allowed to roam freely and be accepted as necessary, guised as social order: government.

See related post on this subject. <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://news.com.com/5208-1028-0.html?forumID=1&#38;threadID=12140&#38;messageID=92780&#38;start=-180" target="_newWindow">http://news.com.com/5208-1028-0.html?forumID=1&#38;threadID=12140&#38;messageID=92780&#38;start=-180</a>

**Kitty Antonik Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://morelife.org" target="_newWindow">http://morelife.org</a>
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
Self-Sovereign Individual Project - <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://selfsip.org" target="_newWindow">http://selfsip.org</a>
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty &#38; social contracting

[swift2--2008]

It's true

Bush's grandfather ran the New York branch of a bank run by the Nazi Thyssen interests. I say, Prescott Bush should be unearthed and sent to Guantanamo!

[aabcdefghij987654321]

The US did plenty of business with the Nazis

Check some of the providers for the Nazi war machine, and you will see names like Ford for tank motors, and IBM for the Hollerith punch cards used to sort Jewish victims of the death camps.
Here is a tidbit:
"We have sworn to you once,
But now we make our allegiance permanent.
Like currents in a torrent lost,
We all flow into you.
Even when we cannot understand you,
We will go with you.
One day we may comprehend,
How you can see our future.
Hearts like bronze shields,
We have placed around you,
And it seems to us, that only you can reveal God's world to us."

This poem ran in an in-house magazine published by Ford Motor Company's German subsidiary in April of 1940. Titled "Fuhrer," the poem appeared at a time when Ford maintained complete control of the German company and two of its top executives sat on the subsidiary's board.
The list goes on. Simply put, "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely."