June 28, 2007 12:18 PM PDT

National ID plan may have killed immigration bill

The U.S. Senate definitively rejected President George Bush's immigration bill on Thursday, just hours after senators expressed deep misgivings with portions that would have expanded the use of a national ID card.

Because the procedural vote was 46 to 53, with 60 votes needed to advance the immigration legislation, the proposal is likely to remain dead for the rest of the year.

Privacy advocates were quick to claim that a vote against Real ID cards the previous evening doomed the bill.

Wednesday's vote showed that senators were willing to delete the portion of the labyrinthine immigration bill that would require employers to demand the Real ID cards from new hires. Because some of the bill's backers had insisted that the ID requirement remain in place--as a way to identify illegal immigrants--they were no longer as willing to support the overall bill.

"The proponents of national ID in the Senate weren't getting what they wanted, so they backed away," said Jim Harper, a policy analyst at the free-market Cato Institute who opposes Real ID. "It was a landmine that blew up in their faces."

In a press release, the two Montana Democrats, Max Baucus and Jon Tester, said they were happy that a pro-privacy approach killed the bill. "If Jon and I just brought down the entire bill, that's good for Montana and the country," said Baucus, who cosponsored the amendment deleting the employer verification rule.

But supporters of the overall legislation, which would have created a new category of "Z" visas for currently illegal immigrants, expressed dismay at its apparent demise.

Microsoft said it was disappointed by Thursday's procedural vote against advancing the bill, which will "likely result in the collapse of comprehensive immigration reform that is desperately needed to address the shortage of highly skilled talent."

"The American people understand the status quo is unacceptable when it comes to our immigration laws," Bush said.

Opponents of the bill, including Republican senator Jim DeMint of South Carolina, said derailing it was a victory. "When the U.S. Senate brought the amnesty bill back up this week, they declared war on the American people," DeMint said.

The American Civil Liberties Union, another longtime foe of Real ID, said the Real ID requirements were a "poison pill that derailed this bill, and any future legislation should be written knowing the American people won't swallow it." Another section of the immigration bill would have given $1.5 billion to state officials to pay for Real ID compliance.

Even if the immigration bill is goes nowhere, however, the Real ID Act is still in effect. It says that, starting on May 11, 2008, Americans will need a federally approved ID card to travel on an airplane, open a bank account, collect Social Security payments or take advantage of nearly any government service.

States must conduct checks of their citizens' identification papers and driver's licenses may have to be reissued to comply with Homeland Security requirements. (States that agree in advance to abide by the rules have until 2013 to comply.)

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Or maybe it was the fear of an armed revolution
you never know what these coke-addicted subhuman amoral corporate-owned scumbags might have in their minds, if you can call them that, when they vote.

Hey! Have you heard about of all the jobs Americans won't do? Like Nursing, teaching programming, landscaping, food service... damn.. we won't do ANYTHING...

Hey have you heard that it's OK for employers to break the law all they want? That's because THERE IS NO LAW... the rule of law has been effectively dissolved in the United States. Employers don't need to obey it. the filth at Cohen and Grigsby
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://programmersguild.blogspot.com/2007/06/youtube-gate-cohen-grigsby-train-how-to.html" target="_newWindow">http://programmersguild.blogspot.com/2007/06/youtube-gate-cohen-grigsby-train-how-to.html</a>
will teach you how to avoid it... nothing happened to them!

See, if you're RICH in this nation, there are no laws...laws are for little people....

it doesn't mean anything to be an American anymore, except maybe you'll be drafted to be cannon-fodder for the Haliburtons and Blackwater executives... they need another private island and some more hookers, dammit. .. There... that's what it means... I knew it meant SOMETHING ...

The rich don't have to obey any laws they don't want to. Just remember that next time you see Kennedy (Chappaquiddick Kennedy, not baby-sitter Kennedy or skiing-Kennedy ) get up and start yelping about immigration and John *cocaine* McCain and freaking Arlen *magic bullet* Spector start telling you about how you won't work for 50 bucks an hour picking lettuce.

If you don't vote your filthy, lying dirtbag Senator out of office (Byron Dorgen-ND excepted...North Dakotans be PROUD.. where'd you FIND that REAL American) then you're part of the problem.
Posted by asdf (241 comments )
Reply Link Flag
I agree with most
of your assertions, but you need to tone it down a little. Most people will not read a rant. I know, it is hard not to rant. They don't see the disastrous course that we are on. For instance, I believe we are doing this nation a great service by taking the fight to the enemy overseas. Some may disagree with me and that is fine. I would be happy to engage in a conversation regarding this issue, yet most simply call names without regard to thought. I know, by the expression of your post that you have thought about these issues but you let your ire get the best of you. Keep up the good work, but slow down, most people will be more receptive to your toughts.
Posted by suyts (824 comments )
Link Flag
Well folks I dont know if this subject is dead yet. But voting any incumbant out of office is very important now
. Now that not one congress-person or senate-peson give a tinkers damn about the American people!!!!
Posted by gary sayre (22 comments )
Link Flag
Whatever it takes
This was an idiotic bill all on it's own. A terrible idea even if it did not make a bad immigration and visa situation worse.
Posted by Phillep_H (497 comments )
Reply Link Flag
The American People Killed the AMNESTY Bill
The National ID had nothing to do with the death of the Amnesty Bill. The American People said "NO" to rewarding Law Breakers and "NO" to allowing the illegal invasion on our borders, language &#38; culture to continue. We flooded the switchboards and e-mail boxes of our elected officials with cries of outrage and they heard us loud &#38; clear! Nice Try Libs.
Posted by Jadefa (135 comments )
Reply Link Flag

You seriously have xenophobic issues when you mention the
"invasion of culture and language", people do not learn the
lesson, the same was said when the irish immigrated, the
germans, the italians, the polish, and this is still the US.

Regardless if this bill passes or not, I am afraid I have bad news
for you Jadefa, have you seen demographic projections for the
next decade? (and the next and the next?)

What are you going to suggest next, kill all the spanish speaking
citizens in this country? - too late Jadefa
Posted by _mats_ (3 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Assimiliation is the issue

You forget that those people that immigrated assimilated into the general American culture. The new invaders are illegals and they don't have any desire to assimilate, talk English, and be part of the nation.

I am Hispanic, and I despise the illegals. Most of them don't even try to educate themselves. They are leeches and moochers. We already have plenty of those here. Why do we want to import more of them? I want America for those who want to work, AND follow the law.

You obviously haven't had the "privilege" to have a bunch of them move next door. I bet you dollars to donuts, that you will change your tune the moment you experience these people. I gave up talking with them. I now just call the police.
Posted by MonoFu (2 comments )
Link Flag
Kool Aid Overdose
The Irish, Germans, Italians, Russians, Japanese, Chinese, African, Indian, etc., etc. etc. all learned English (The official Language of the US and the International Language) when they came here. They came legally. They were not interested in destroying traditional American Culture, they worked to build a strong America. They knew the Greatness of America. They were American. The current wave of people breaking &#38; entering from Mexico are loyal only to one race. They consider themselves superior to the other races that make up the American Fabric. They are not interested in assimilating, they speak the language of conquest. I know them, live amongst them. Their flag is red, white &#38; green. As for Xenophobia, I'm amused with your diagnosis and attempt at shock &#38; awe. You appear to be another Useful Idiot for the anti-traditionalists, but I'll bet you think that kool-aid sure tastes good.
Posted by Jadefa (135 comments )
Link Flag
_mats_ you are living in a fantasy
You are right the same things were said about the irish,germans,italians and polish. The differance here is that they actually did take the time to learn english. They took the time to teach their kids to respect american. They taught their kids to work hard, learn the language and make a better place for themselves. The Mexicans that we have breaking into the country now are not. Everything in every store, shop, goverment building and even some of the street signs in my home town are now in spanish. I really wish before people start talking, they would take time to visit some place where the illegal invasion is actually taking place. People in Washington didn't understand the problem, because they don't see the problem. Obviously neither do you. The problem doesn't come into the beltway or their nice little neighborhood, So who cares. Well, they found out who cares, we the people. Remember us??????
Posted by rastinmajera (1 comment )
Link Flag
Can't you guys
have a serious discussion without name calling. Jadefa raised a legitimate issue and you called him a racist. It is one thing to celebrate a traditional holiday from the home country, but it is quite another to import a culture that they ran from to begin with.
Posted by suyts (824 comments )
Link Flag
I live in a small town in Utah. I have several friends who are Hispanic and some of my relatives have married Hispanics. They are also citizens. I love these people. They have tried to help immigrants by teaching them English, etc. They are not interested. These people have learned to despise the immigrants. When the immigrants started coming in about 10 years ago they were welcomed with open arms. Now their population is almost as high as the citizens. There have been multiple murders, drug rings, gangs, prostitution rings, etc. They have almost all involved illegal immigrants. A friend of mine was raped by a Mexican because he thought if she got pregnant she would marry him and he could stay here. He was shocked when he was sent to prison for 10 years and then would be deported. When my daughter decided to marry one about 5 years ago we accepted him into our family. He did not want to be part of our family. He spent all his time with other Hispanics and left my daughter and their kids alone every night. He said he came here for a better life. He has broken many laws and has no respect for our customs. He thinks our laws are stupid. I've tried to explain to him that our laws are one of the most important things that makes our life better here. When he got tired of our daughter he threated to kill her. We are keeping her and the kids with us because she is afraid of him. Several year ago a Mexican murdered his wife and burned her body and then told everyone about it because he thought it was Ok. It's okay in his country and my ex-son-in-law thinks this is okay too. He has completely disregarded a restraining order and is facing jail time. He thinks this is stupid. I typed disability reports for SSDI for many years. You wouldn't believe how many of the applications were from Hispanics. The most common reasons were alcohol and drug abuse and not being able to speak English (some of them being here as long as 30 years)so they couldn't get jobs. They don't want to learn English or work. They want the government to support them. Have you ever seen West Side Story? There is a song that goes "I want to be in America, Everything's free in America". These people really believe this. I feel very strongly about people not forgetting their heritage. I feel its important that they remember their culture and where they come from. But that does not include breaking our laws.
Posted by kmander (1 comment )
Link Flag
To Spock...or anyone else
Because I can't reply directly to you, I'll start a new thread. What does history tell us about cultures that do not assimilate?

We have a choice, all of us, including the immigrants we have today. We can embrace a culture that has proven successful or we can embrace a culture that people literally run from. I don't know, pick one for us.
Posted by suyts (824 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Remember the Roman Empire
it too faced an immigration issue in its final days. It chose to embrace and accept illegal immigrants and allowed them to assimilate into Roman society and culture.

There were hard economic times for Europe, and the Huns had invaded parts of Europe not controlled by the Roman Empire. The Romans called the illegal immigrants barbarians, that was their definition of a person who wasn't a citizen. They become civilized once they became a citizen.

Now the Roman Empire had great social programs, food, money, health care for citizens and barbarians. They paid for these by taxing the citizens. The Roman Empire was a Democracy they elected their own Senate and Representatives as part of a Republic that passed bills into laws, etc.

What happened to the Roman Empire? Too many Barbarians flooded into the Roman Empire and drained the social programs until the Roman Army was not able to be paid any more, and nobody got their salaries and there was shortages of food and other things. The Roman economy and system broke down.

The USA is a modern day Roman Empire.

The average illegal immigrant drains $45,000USD a year in welfare, health care, and social programs and contributes no taxes (works illegally, no income tax, no fica, etc). Taxpayers pay for the 12 million illegal immigrants that we know of (there could be more) which figures out to $540,000,000,000USD a year. Most hospitals have to eat the cost of treating illegal immigrants and pass the costs on to the paying customers and health insurance companies and even the government.

If we allow amnesty for illegal immigrants, they can file for visas and become legal. At which point they will pay $9000 in taxes but still drain $45,000 from the economy because they have a low education level and hardly any job skills. Which means they will only drain $36,000 from the US economy. Saving $128,000,000,000 from being wasted on them.

That is until they file for visas for family members and bring them here as well. In the case of Mexicans they have many children and have large families. One Mexican Illegal turned legal can apply for 237 Visas for family members. If this happens, say every one Mexican illegal turned legal, brings in 10 family members. Well you have 120 Million Visa holders who pay out $9000 in taxes and waste $36,000USD in the economy. Which means you end up wasting $4,320,000,000,000 in the US economy, which will break the economy and cause the system to fail.

A solution might be to create more low level jobs for the new immigrants so they can afford health care and not waste so much money in the economy.

These numbers are estimates that I got from ICE I am not sure how accurate they are.
Posted by Orion Blastar (590 comments )
Link Flag
The only thing that killed the immigration bill was the amnesty for the existing illegals. I don't think most people have a problem with the National ID plan, as long as it's used to remove the illegals from our midst.
Posted by dwimmer38 (31 comments )
Reply Link Flag
National ID
I would agree with the national ID plan if it would be used to identify Americans who could be trusted to uphold the core values of the federal government as expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, and then I could know that everyone who had this ID, regardless of color, gender or other orientation was my brother, and that we were both on the same team and working towards the same goal of life, liberty and the free pursuit of happiness for all individuals. But the agents and departments of the federal government have consistently proven that they can't even be trusted to do that, so I can't see any real benefit of having a national ID.
Posted by the_athenian_stranger (11 comments )
Link Flag
Get rid of the legal immigrants.
I have no problem with the people who break the law to come into this country. America is great not because of our culture (ok, our culture plays a part) But because the people with the most drive chose to come here, and would not let anything stop them.

Does this country need a bunch of law and order pansies who do what people tell them to do, or do we need people who get things done no matter what is in the way?

The grand children of the people who walked into this country or hid in shipping containers will found the companies your grandchildren will work for.
Posted by ralfthedog (1589 comments )
Reply Link Flag
A Day Without Americans
I wanna see this Movie. "A Day Without Americans". Let's see, first the World's economy would shut down, Second Democracies would fail, Dictotors would take control &#38; Civil Wars would break out world wide, &#38; the worlds population would become a bunch of refugees. Then the Illegals could have what they had before they broke in... nothing!
Posted by Jadefa (135 comments )
Link Flag
Microsoft is bunch of lying scumbags
There sure is a lot of available tech talent here in the U.S., especially after all the offshoring. Microsoft just seems not to be looking for it. If they go to my alma matter and talk to my academic advisor, she can put them in contact with a number of students who graduated this spring in computer science who didn't have job offers.

Microsoft is raking in billions of dollars in profits, but cannot be burdened with paying American workers a decent wage, when they could lie instead and get more foreign workers here who will work 7 days a week at lower wages. Way to go, scumbags!
Posted by chris_d (195 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Can you see the forest for the trees?
Having read the last 29 comments; having lived in this country all of my 55 years; having two English "*******" illegal immigrant grandparents (one jumped ship before the civil war and one crossed the Detroit River before the depression)and a Pilgrim Father in my background;having learned to pay attention in a public school system that tried to "assimilate" me into proletarian oblivion; I have a comment.

Are any of you paying attention??
This is what the new world order looks like.
The majority of humanity washing from one shore to another in relative poverty, trying to get ahead, with that brass ring just a little out of reach.
Most of these folks, no matter what language they were born into, honest and hardworking and not really willing to rock the status quo; just trying to take care of their own.

This is not about immigration. This is about keeping us in line and at each others throats, as usual.
George Bush was right. The constitution is nothing but a piece of [toilet] paper.
You only have whatever "rights" you can actually exercise.
Take a walk through the bill of rights and see whats left. Not much.

This country is getting ready to tank along with the rest of the worlds economy.
We are all Walmart addled Chinese wage slaves.
Proud to be an Amerikan? *** is that? Try exercising your American rights. Try to find any honest American commerce in this (or any other) country.
Try finding something to eat that isn't polluted, either with gene splicing or industrial waste disguised as "fertilizer".
Try finding something to wear that wasn't made by some slave somewhere else.
Try finding a place to live that isn't owned by the bank (a faceless bunch of "investor" leeches) or the state (if you think you own your property, stop paying taxes and see what happens).
Try not paying "your" income taxes. Imagine the irony of being taxed on the sale of the only thing that really is yours; the hours of your god given time on earth.

This is about class. It's about re-establishing global serfdom. It's about the New (old) World Order.
Posted by Mozarks (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
The discourse in this country can't get much lower
These days, knowing how to use 'discourse' properly passes for intelligence.

Most of the country thought Saddam was directly involved in 9/11. I'll never get over that.

I mean, wow, we're retarded!!!

Posted by Mark Greene (163 comments )
Reply Link Flag
This guy apparently missed the boat
This bill which was not just Bush's, but also the democrats. What killed it? ID? No way Jose. Legal US citizens killed it because it rewarded 30 million diseased, illiterate, drug dealing gang members with citizenship. ( But they work hard at it.) Just what we need a quantum leap adding another 10% uneducated illiterates to our already over loaded groups of the same in our population. Bush, McCain, Kennedy, Reid, Graham, Martinez, Kerry, Gates et al are all multi-millionaires who don't want or need a country---the buck for themselves is their concern. Gates donates billions to Africa (which is his right) and gives only 10s of millions to the US to educate people--but he makes more by hiring recent foreign nationals at half the price than hiring US citizens. If you haven't figured it out yet---these flaming ******** don't give a damn about you or me. This bill, even discounting an amnesty reward for criminals, would have once again INCREASED illegal border crossings---not slowed or stopped them. Neither do these folks want to stop it. Bush should not be impeached, but tried for treason in time of war for giving aid to the enemy (illegals---remember, treat them with dignity and respect) and them summarily executed---throw the rest in for good measure. I'll do the job personally.

There is NO FREE LUNCH! These illegal aliens may work cheaply---but they make up the difference by having no auto insurance, kids we provide schooling, lunches, food stamps, medical care, subsidized utilities and on and on. Remember the old saying, pay me now or pay me later? DUH YOU TOTALLY SUBSIDIZE THEM!

Can't deport them? Too difficult? That means we have no control of our own nation---exactly what the above listed want. Remember the Bush family's "New World Order?"

They would leave voluntarily within 6 months, because if they didn't and get fingerprinted on the way out, they would be incarcerated in outdoor Arizona prison camps, responsible for their own food, tents etc until their government paid a $10,000 fine each to be released. Those who left voluntarily, were fingerprinted and filled out applications, could be allowed back in with work permits where by their employers would be entirely responsible for them, or they would be locked up. Enforce this and they'd be out of here before 6 months.
Posted by blueyes123 (54 comments )
Reply Link Flag
I think I know a better way to stop illegals from coming to the U.S. and create more jobs at the same time. Huge fines and jail time for the entities that hire illegals. If the tables were turned and Mexico was a place where I could provide a decent living for my family versus starving,I'd be there in a heart beat. No jobs,no illegals.Everyone is being kept focused on the wrong end of the illegal immigration problem.
Posted by 121945 (1 comment )
Link Flag
A real benefit of Real ID
is to prevent identity theft, which is almost as bad if not worse than the illegal immigration problem.

It will also prevent voter fraud, as only citizens will have a Real ID.
Posted by Orion Blastar (590 comments )
Reply Link Flag
And another weapon against
terrorism. It seems that most posters here are advocates of illegal immigration, identity theft, voter fraud and terrorism. For those people who claim to be an American, today would be a great day to reflect on this nations course and the legacy of our founding fathers. God bless America!
Posted by suyts (824 comments )
Link Flag
Prevent ?????
Have you read the papers, seen the news on TV? There is no preventing identity theft. It is out of control. They are going to store our most intimate of infornmation in a central database.
Which, if its anything like the databases they have in the DMV today, will be completely accessable to the employees of DMV, or to any seasoned hackers. And then they have their way with our information. The federal government is allowing the states to control the information on a state level. (This is just so it doesn't look like a Big Brother thing!) Do you think this is going to be a secure database?? There have been
millions of information breaches since Januaray, 2007. A significant number of them are employee
based. Where the employee for one reason or another goes bad. And thousands if not millions
of records are removed by removable storage devices (laptops,CD-ROMS,cell phones,MP3s,USBsticks) and sold to the highest bidder. The sale of information is a very lucrative business today. So as far as the REAL ID ACT preventing identity theft, the government will have to fix another problem, desperation, before we will all be safe.
Posted by bernadinegraham (5 comments )
Link Flag
new id a real benefit???
it benefits the new world order agenda to steal free will---this new id is the last paper id--your next id will be imbedded under your skin--nomore free will---i just wonder what new fear will appear to make your implant easier to have.and for your information--if someone wants to create a fake-then someone will figure out how to accomplish it.nothing is infallible-not even id's
Posted by mark cranick (3 comments )
Link Flag
new id's
my only question is this--what connection does microsoft have with the homeland security department-and doesn't bill gates have enough money without tapping into government contracts??
since when does microsoft dictate national security proceedures???
Posted by mark cranick (3 comments )
Reply Link Flag

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