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January 26, 2006 4:31 AM PST

Microsoft source code offer surprises EU

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EU's competition commissioner says her staff is analyzing whether offer will end dispute over daily fine for Redmond.

The story "Microsoft source code offer surprises EU" published January 26, 2006 at 4:31 AM is no longer available on CNET News.

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"Ultimate Documentation"
by sanenazok January 26, 2006 6:58 AM PST
Apparently Ms. EU has never looked at source code. If someone had the choice between actual (and correct) documentation of interfaces and the actual code behind them, of course they would pick the documentation. Can't wait for them to "decide" if this is sufficient disclosure. I'm sure the EU sub-commissioner for commissioners on the commissioner group will look at this for 10 minutes and say that it's good enough.
Reply to this comment
Learn to read
by Mutex January 26, 2006 7:48 AM PST
"Normally speaking, the source code is ***NOT*** the ultimate documentation of anything, which is precisely the reason why programmers are required to provide comprehensive documentation to go along with their source code,"
View all 2 replies
"Ultimate Documentation"
by sanenazok January 26, 2006 6:58 AM PST
Apparently Ms. EU has never looked at source code. If someone had the choice between actual (and correct) documentation of interfaces and the actual code behind them, of course they would pick the documentation. Can't wait for them to "decide" if this is sufficient disclosure. I'm sure the EU sub-commissioner for commissioners on the commissioner group will look at this for 10 minutes and say that it's good enough.
Reply to this comment
Learn to read
by Mutex January 26, 2006 7:48 AM PST
"Normally speaking, the source code is ***NOT*** the ultimate documentation of anything, which is precisely the reason why programmers are required to provide comprehensive documentation to go along with their source code,"
View all 2 replies
Is This EU Process...
by Captain_Spock January 26, 2006 7:19 AM PST
... attempting to make a mockery of "Software Patents for Methods of Doing Business?A Second Class Citizen No More"...

... re: "For many years, anyone seeking to patent the use of a computer for functions that were previously performed manually had double trouble if the invention related to a ?way of doing business.? First, the Patent and Trademark Office decided that mathematical algorithms were not a statutory category of subject matter that could be protected by patent. Second, ?business methods? were held to be unpatentable. These two objections have been eroded over the years.

Recently, software inventions involving algorithms have been eligible for United States patents as long as tangible results are produced. Also, in the mid-1980s, Merrill Lynch won a court ruling that it was entitled to have a patent on its Cash Management System, which involved various types of processing of financial data by computer.

In 1998, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit in the State Street case destroyed the last remnant of the ?method of doing business? objection to obtaining a patent. It ruled that no legal basis exists for such an exception to patentability and that if an invention otherwise meets the standards for patentability, there is no legitimate basis for denying the issuance of a patent. This ruling was made for a software invention that used computerized processing to establish a system for pooling of assets of mutual funds"; see link for the rest of the article:

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/matters/matters-0012.html
Reply to this comment
Is This EU Process...
by Captain_Spock January 26, 2006 7:19 AM PST
... attempting to make a mockery of "Software Patents for Methods of Doing Business?A Second Class Citizen No More"...

... re: "For many years, anyone seeking to patent the use of a computer for functions that were previously performed manually had double trouble if the invention related to a ?way of doing business.? First, the Patent and Trademark Office decided that mathematical algorithms were not a statutory category of subject matter that could be protected by patent. Second, ?business methods? were held to be unpatentable. These two objections have been eroded over the years.

Recently, software inventions involving algorithms have been eligible for United States patents as long as tangible results are produced. Also, in the mid-1980s, Merrill Lynch won a court ruling that it was entitled to have a patent on its Cash Management System, which involved various types of processing of financial data by computer.

In 1998, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit in the State Street case destroyed the last remnant of the ?method of doing business? objection to obtaining a patent. It ruled that no legal basis exists for such an exception to patentability and that if an invention otherwise meets the standards for patentability, there is no legitimate basis for denying the issuance of a patent. This ruling was made for a software invention that used computerized processing to establish a system for pooling of assets of mutual funds"; see link for the rest of the article:

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/matters/matters-0012.html
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On The Question National and International Security!
by Captain_Spock January 26, 2006 8:08 AM PST
Although I do not profess to be a friend of those at the Redmond Campus, the whole question is -- who would want their personal data; or, in the case of the "national security" of a country (US)... those that are responsible for the well-being (including economic) of its citizens to be at "risk" because of open access to available sensitive software-codes to persons other than those with good intentions. If so be the case why doesn't the European not simply ask (or demand) the Russians to freely share their "nuclear methodologies" with the rest of the world!
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no security in obscurity
by AbuLafya January 26, 2006 11:08 AM PST
Properly implemented protocols do not rely on the obscurity of the code for their security. SSL, the most well known security protocol is published on the web for all to see.

If MS has or has not properly implemented its code, it would be better for everyone if their code if it can go under scrutiny
On The Question National and International Security!
by Captain_Spock January 26, 2006 8:08 AM PST
Although I do not profess to be a friend of those at the Redmond Campus, the whole question is -- who would want their personal data; or, in the case of the "national security" of a country (US)... those that are responsible for the well-being (including economic) of its citizens to be at "risk" because of open access to available sensitive software-codes to persons other than those with good intentions. If so be the case why doesn't the European not simply ask (or demand) the Russians to freely share their "nuclear methodologies" with the rest of the world!
Reply to this comment
no security in obscurity
by AbuLafya January 26, 2006 11:08 AM PST
Properly implemented protocols do not rely on the obscurity of the code for their security. SSL, the most well known security protocol is published on the web for all to see.

If MS has or has not properly implemented its code, it would be better for everyone if their code if it can go under scrutiny
Ironic - competitors don't want documentation
by David Arbogast January 26, 2006 9:47 AM PST
How Ironic that the EU would try to level the playing field between MS and OSS by questioning the release of souce-code instead of documentation or specifications...

Especially when the OSS heavyweights like Linus Torvalds openly state that documentation is worthless.

"A spec is close to useless. I have never seen a spec that was both big enough to be useful and accurate. And I have seen lots of total crap work that was based on specs. It's the single worst way to write software, because it by definition means that the software was written to match theory, not reality."
-Linus Torvalds
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Ironic - competitors don't want documentation
by David Arbogast January 26, 2006 9:47 AM PST
How Ironic that the EU would try to level the playing field between MS and OSS by questioning the release of souce-code instead of documentation or specifications...

Especially when the OSS heavyweights like Linus Torvalds openly state that documentation is worthless.

"A spec is close to useless. I have never seen a spec that was both big enough to be useful and accurate. And I have seen lots of total crap work that was based on specs. It's the single worst way to write software, because it by definition means that the software was written to match theory, not reality."
-Linus Torvalds
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hard to take seriously....
by freq January 26, 2006 10:28 AM PST
after all the court drama about media players around the world..... I have to through this in the reccyle bin

if Microsoft needs someone to write about protocols they can get in touch with me.. I can make up to $12,000 a year and not have to report it.
Reply to this comment
hard to take seriously....
by freq January 26, 2006 10:28 AM PST
after all the court drama about media players around the world..... I have to through this in the reccyle bin

if Microsoft needs someone to write about protocols they can get in touch with me.. I can make up to $12,000 a year and not have to report it.
Reply to this comment
MS wants to license their code to shun Open Source
by AbuLafya January 26, 2006 11:12 AM PST
EU AND CNet should write about this important point
Reply to this comment
MS wants to license their code to shun Open Source
by AbuLafya January 26, 2006 11:12 AM PST
EU AND CNet should write about this important point
Reply to this comment
Documentation is safer than source code
by rcrusoe January 26, 2006 11:18 AM PST
Look at the documentation and you know what is going on. Look
at the source code and MS could claim any code you develop is a
derivative of their work. (a trick they may have picked up from
their buddies at SCO)
Reply to this comment
Documentation is safer than source code
by rcrusoe January 26, 2006 11:18 AM PST
Look at the documentation and you know what is going on. Look
at the source code and MS could claim any code you develop is a
derivative of their work. (a trick they may have picked up from
their buddies at SCO)
Reply to this comment
Now What!
by Captain_Spock January 26, 2006 12:37 PM PST
Does this mean that "European" AirBus will not get the Microsoft's $$ that might have been anticipated from the US's economy to help speed its new entrant into service. Perhaps, with newly discovered wealth the world may shortly see -- instead of a Microsoft developed AirCar, a Microsoft/Google version of a "composite" assembled Concorde! ;-)
Reply to this comment
Now What!
by Captain_Spock January 26, 2006 12:37 PM PST
Does this mean that "European" AirBus will not get the Microsoft's $$ that might have been anticipated from the US's economy to help speed its new entrant into service. Perhaps, with newly discovered wealth the world may shortly see -- instead of a Microsoft developed AirCar, a Microsoft/Google version of a "composite" assembled Concorde! ;-)
Reply to this comment
MS is developer friendly
by Pascoli January 28, 2006 9:24 PM PST
Microsoft is one the most developer friendly companies out there. They do a lot help coders since they depend on a large ecosystem of software relying on windows. Look at all the documentation they provide on msdn. Another point, since competitors want to interoperate with windows, why should ms do the hard work of documenting their source code for them? Since they've been complaining, I think ms is right to throw the s.code at them and they hire the labor and do the documentation themselves. If they find that to be too honerous, well maybe it's not worth their while developing for windows server anyway.
Reply to this comment
MS is developer friendly
by Pascoli January 28, 2006 9:24 PM PST
Microsoft is one the most developer friendly companies out there. They do a lot help coders since they depend on a large ecosystem of software relying on windows. Look at all the documentation they provide on msdn. Another point, since competitors want to interoperate with windows, why should ms do the hard work of documenting their source code for them? Since they've been complaining, I think ms is right to throw the s.code at them and they hire the labor and do the documentation themselves. If they find that to be too honerous, well maybe it's not worth their while developing for windows server anyway.
Reply to this comment
"well maybe it's....
by Captain_Spock January 29, 2006 11:42 AM PST
... not worth their while developing for windows server anyway"; well, if such is the case, then why not "port" as well as "develop" applications for the "IBM's OS/2 WARP SERVER FOR E-BUSINESS"... this should present some compelling and competitive business opportunities now that it appears that the Windows Source-Code is soon to be available for free!
Reply to this comment
"well maybe it's....
by Captain_Spock January 29, 2006 11:42 AM PST
... not worth their while developing for windows server anyway"; well, if such is the case, then why not "port" as well as "develop" applications for the "IBM's OS/2 WARP SERVER FOR E-BUSINESS"... this should present some compelling and competitive business opportunities now that it appears that the Windows Source-Code is soon to be available for free!
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