Lights out for conventional bulbs in California?

Lawmaker wants state to be the first to ban incandescent lightbulbs as part of its initiatives to reduce energy use.

The story "Lights out for conventional bulbs in California?" published January 31, 2007 at 8:20 AM is no longer available on CNET News.

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[jamie.p.walsh]

Until they produce the same spectrum of light as incandescents...

nobody should be forced to use CFLs.

[ProfJonathan]

Two problems: mercury and dimmers

I have used compact fluorescents for awhile, and while they definitely save energy and produce less heat, there are a few issues with them. First, and more serious, most of them contain mercury, a highly dangerous neurotoxin. Even if the bulbs don't burst, they can be dropped and break, releasing mercury into the atmosphere. Of lesser concern is their incompatibility with dimmer switches and home automation systems. For those reasons, I think to make them mandatory, at least until these issues are resolved, is shortsighted. {Prof. Jonathan}

[nrauch1942]

More than 2 problems ..

First, I am an advocate for the use of these bulbs. However, there are additional concerns not mentioned by anyone and that is these bulbs, by design, put more pressure on other environmental issues. The component parts are dramatically greater; more plastic, more copper windings, more steel and more glass. They are relatively more complicated than a standard bulb. If we as a "national community" really want to make an energy/environmental impact on making a major worthwhile transition to these bulbs, couple it with a "return/recycling" program. Much like our aluminum can fiasco. But it works.

[Iphtashu Fitz]

So much for theater/concerts if this happens

The vast majority of entertainment (theater) lighting is done via incandescent lights, and they're also used to a good extent in concerts. If a bill like this were to pass, without exempting the entertainment industry, then you'd probably see an end to live entertainment in California until a viable alternative can be found. True, LED fixtures are starting to be used in theater, but LED's currently don't have what it takes to replace mainstream theater fixtures. You'd need a pure white LED that can generate 10,000+ lumens, and such a beast simply doesn't exist.

[R. U. Sirius]

not only entertainment

But also arts, photography, plant lights for dark areas, heating for reptile pets, and the list goes on. This is one of those proposals where the heart is in the right place, but it is completely unrealistic.

[jstack6]

LED is even better

LED lighting uses even less energy and produces less heat. They also last longer and don't have mercury. I have a few LED bulbs and they are great. The light frequency is different but improving.

[Below Meigh]

LED is still behind

Do we have AC LED bulbs or DC?
What about colour temperature? Can we simulate Sunshine?
CFLs don't without pricey ballasts. Are hamrful to recycle (merc) and bulky.

I'm for bright, dimmable, colour-temperature accurate and efficient lighting. But too many hands in the pot. LEDs should be the norm...

BTW...Just look at the "CFCs are opening the ozone! We need new AC, fridges..." scam. Are we any better? Or has someone made a profit recycling freon...
Will we see the same for lighting?

[Scopeman58]

"Waste" Electricy is not accurate

Maybe in California the conversion of electricity into heat in an incandescent bulb is "waste", but consider that in other climates this is not the case. In any winter climate the excess wattage of heat produced by the bulb is effectively heating hte room. Switching to CFL or LED in those environments WILL reduce electric consumption, but will be at least perrtially offset by increased demand for heat, which in the US and Canada is typically FUEL OIL.

So moving to a mercury-based buld that has the downside of raising heating oil consupmtion in the winter is not a slam-dunk-good idea.

It probably is a NET positive, but not the pie-in-the-sky 95% reduction in emmission so often quoted.

[Get_Bent]

Look at the whole picture

"In any winter climate the excess wattage of heat produced by the bulb is effectively heating hte room. Switching to CFL or LED in those environments WILL reduce electric consumption, but will be at least perrtially offset by increased demand for heat,"

The purpose of a light bulb is to brighten the house, _not_ to heat it. An electric, gas, or oil heater is more energy efficient than an incandescent light bulb.

And don't forget about summer. The heat from incandescent bulbs cause the air conditioner to run more and consume more electricity.

[amigabill]

dimmable CF bulbs exist, supposedly

I've seen psople on other sites say that dimmable compact fluorescent bulbs exist. Unfortunately they're so hard to find that I'm not quite convinced yet. If one does go bad, starts to buzz, or something, I don't want to have to hunt a replacement down on the internet and wait for shipping, I'd want to go to the store nearby and buy a new one on my way home from work. From what I can tell, that's not yet possible.

[DaveLow]

Why not incentiveize CFL instead of banning Inc lamps.

I have worked in lighting for 35 years and always had to promote energy efficiency. I believed in and widely used CFL lamps before they were popular and cheap. Yes the CFL is far more efficient than incandescent lamps BUT there are applications that CFL won't support.
It is wrong for the promoter of the bill to say "they work with dimmers". Very few CFL lamps work with dimmers at all, in fact, MOST are labelled "Do not use with dimmers" Unfortunately people will try to use nondim bulbs in dimmed sockets causing a safety and fire hazard. The few that do work with dimmers are marginal, short life and very expensive lamps. I suggest that the Power Companies and the government continue to provide incentives for CFL lamps and encourage their use in non dim applications. Across the board ban is a drastic and dangerous approach.

[Joe Real]

Things they forgot about incandescent

Why ban these completely? Some uses of the old incandescent bulbs are for heating and light is just a side benefit. I have germination boxes that are more safely and efficiently heated by incandescent bulbs.

You could not use CF on lights inside your oven and freezer.

for those pure applications whose main purpose is to have light, I would use CF or LED without hesitation. All the bulbs for lighting purposes inside our home are now CF, and are brighter with reduced electricity. But I have to use my oven, fridge, and freezer, there are no CF bulbs for these that are very cheap or safe to use, so I use incandescent for these applicances. My germination box is lighted with incandescent bulb, connected to a dimmer controlled by thermostat, the CF or LED would be a bad choice for these application.

[Professor Cornbread]

Exceptions would have to exist

I would be surprised if they would enact such a law without considering that there would be exceptions. The entertainment and theatre industy would be a big one, but so would art and film as florescent lights just don't cut it for display purposes.

Will california require florescent or led christmas lights by 2012?!

[herby67]

Also

I've been trying to replace all the lights in my house with fluorescent, but found two problems: in some places there's not enough room to fit a CFL (despite the claims, the base on the CFL makes them signifficantly longer) and for some uses the one or two second delay to light a CFLs makes them unfit. Instead of banning, they should put a tax on incandescent and use that money to subsidize CFLs (in my view it whould be part of the tax system, if something produces a prejudice to the environment or other people (noise, heat, exhaustion of a shared resource, pollution, etc.)it should be taxed accordingly and systematically, so people pay for their impact on others).

[Professor Cornbread]

Agreed

I agree, personally I can't stand detail working or reading under florescent lights...the color just isn't right. Fortunatly, the small CFLs and other non-tube florescents don't bother me as much with the flickering.

[ddesy]

Fluorescents and LEDs have issues

Once again, lawmakers don't do the research before they shoot their mouths off.

I'm all for using florescent lights in most cases, but they aren't always practical. Even the modern fluorescent lights can cause noise and interference that incandescent lights don't.

If I am in a quiet room and switch on a fluorescent light, regular or compact, I can hear noise from the light. I usually don't notice the same from incandescent bulbs.

As far as interference goes, it can affect some guitar pickups and radios. Most people wouldn't care much about either, but some would. With radios, the interference is more likely to be heard when using amplitude modulation(AM). For those who don't know, AM is widely used for shortwave radio stations, amateur radio bands, and other various purposes.

With LEDs, let's just say that most of them produce a less than pleasing spectrum of light for most uses other than as indicators.

[Microsoft_Facts]

Cold weather also problem for outdoor bulbs, but look at it this way...

I used one for my porch light last year here in CT, but when winter hit I found they don't work well or at all once the temp drops below 40. But setting a deadline will push the innovations required to get over these obstacles. As long as there is a clause that can extend the deadline should issue A, B, and C not be worked out, I think this is a good thing.

[mkrech]

Fluorescent lights hurt my eyes!

I have light sensitive eyes, and cannot tolerate for long periods of time to have fluorescent lights, including LCD screens (I lower the backlight a lot or remove it!).
It's very ignorant to think that because fluorescent lights are economic and high-tech they are also safe and healthy. In Germany it's well known that fluorescent lights are good for the pocket not for the health!

[jamie.p.walsh]

Along these lines

who was the genius who thought that putting brighter headlights on the road was a good idea. I'd like to smash those headlights out with a baseball bat every time I see someone with them. Where in God's green earth are you driving that you need to have lights that bright?

I'd like to see some research done on how many late night accidents were caused by drivers blinded by other drivers using those stupid wastes of technology.

[DougDbug]

Sounds like an opportunity...

I could make some big bucks by smuggling-in lightbulbs from Nevada! :)

[markdoiron]

Better Opportunity ...

A better opportunity might be to smuggle in incandescent bulbs and "high flow" toilets from Mexico. :-)

--mark d.

[Heebee Jeebies]

Recycling

Well, if they do it they need to make recycling a lot easier. Because our toxics disposal site is in another city a good distance away and they have poor hours. We need curbside toxics pickup if they want to do cr@p like this.

Robert

[rslc]

Yes. Banning is the way to go.

Market-forces will always move towards whats
cheap and cool, and possibly non-green products.

Only such laws enforcement will be effective in curbing energy.

More products should be banned:
a) desktop PC Cpu (use mobile chipsets like imac mini)
b) 3.5" inch Harddisks (use 2.5inch like imac mini)
c) non-energy compliant PSUs

Increase tax on:
a) gas-gazzling cars.
b) Xboxes and gaming PCs components <<<<<< :)

[freedomlinux]

Quite Extreme

I cannot say that I agree with your opinions on banning high-performance computer parts. While mobile chips require less energy per time unit, they are not appropriate in every use.
--Uses in which a mobile chip would be unnacceptable:
-corporate servers
-animation render farms
-live video production (such at NewTek VT[5]
-gaming
-high-definition professional music recording
In all of these applications, loads of data must be handled, NOW. Using a mobile chip would not only inconvenience users, but the increased time could negate the power savings of the mobile chip.
(ie, a chip using 30% less power would be ineffective if you had to run the computer (including monitor) for 40% more time.
Or maybe just ban all servers, gaming, and video production in California. (See how that turns out)

The use of 2.5" hard drives is also not recommended. Online computer retailer, Newegg.com sells only one 2.5" HDD, which is quite fast, but is small, expensive, and incompatible with common conmputers. The 74gb drive is Serial Attached SCSI, runs at 10,000rpm (which also uses a lot of power), and is almost $700.
So inefficient that I cannot imagine any user saving money on power by purchasing the HDD.

So, yes, penalize users of inefficient vehicle, but no, do not ban general computing components.

[muskrat_james]

No way.

I agree that it's in everybody's best interests to save power - if nothing else, it reduces your energy bill at the end of the month. Simple things like the energy-saver bulbs (which I have been in the process of introducing at my house over the last 9 months as the incandescents burn out), turning the lights and computers out when not using them, using less hot water, and driving more granny-like are all effective and common sense. We all agree on that.

What I don't agree with is the idea that it needs to be legislated. I have always maintained that government is no substitute for common sense. If you don't choose to exercise common sense, then you deserve what you get - in this case, paying higher electricity bills - and in the process, hopefully learning a lesson in a way that sticks. After all, I didn't learn to stay away from a hot iron because people told me to, I learned because I got burned by it.

Not only that, but energy-savers are not right for everything. They are decent task lights, although they take a while to heat up to full light output. However, they are awful mood lights as it's a very stark, cold light with little "comfort" factor. Besides that, there are instances where these bulbs physically do not work, and I have some lamps that I'll stock up on traditional bulbs for for exactly these reasons (could there be a coming grey market in traditional bulbs??).

It's also something that can beckfire. This mode of legislation on the part of CARB, for instance, has led me to drive classic cars which don't need to be smogged rather than dealing with the hassle of California smog laws; in other words, such things can have the opposite effect as people circumvent the regulations through means that are "worse" than what the regulations were intended to prevent or eliminate.

[ajbright]

I don't know about the ban

but

"About a fifth of the average U.S. home's electricity costs pays for lighting, which means even if CFLs initially cost more than conventional lightbulbs, consumers will save, Jones said."

is maybe true - but it'll take years of use to see any real savings.

When I changed every light in my home that could be changed, I saved about $7 a month.

At that rate it'll take me 18 months before I've made my money back.

Why? Because we aren't home that much during the day, and in the summer we don't turn the lights on at all. The shorter winter days in AK make up for that a bit, but most of my electricity use goes to computers and TVs.

[newmexhik917]

LED light bulbs @ Reasonable prices

I whole heartedly agree that CFLs are the best bet right now to replace conventional light bulbs. If you want to try the next emerging thing in lighting technology LED bulbs are just over the horizon and getting better every year. Right now they are pretty much just good as night lights or in a small reading lamp. The best prices I've seen can be found at DonsGreenStore.com they even have something called a sampler pack that gives you 5 LED light bulbs for about $50 with free shipping included!!!

[kxmmxk]

problems

There are currenlty problems with fluorescent bubls. I live in New England. I perhaps foolishly put flourescents in my garage and in my cellar. As soon as the temp got down around 60F they started getting dimmer and dimmer. The ones in my garage don't really provide any light at all now unless I leave them on for quite a period of time. Luckily they didn't fit the socket on the garage opener and I have a normal light there or I would see anything. I'll probably have to change them back.

I don't use them in the house because all my lights are on dimmers, and it's next to impossible to find dimmible fluorescents. They make very few of them.

So all around, pretty useless for me.

[denekisses]

Lights hurt my eyes too??

Oh my Gosh, It seemed that the only time this happened was in big warehouses like Costco, Walmart, and such, but now it seems to be anywhere now. I get horrifying pressure, blurred vision, dizziness and near black outs. But the pain I feel is the scariest. Am I pushing my luck tolerating this. Do I need to stop shopping? Wear sun glasses inside, what do I do? The pain and pressure is unbearable. What is this doing to me? Is it bad, will I malfunction and end up with more problems, tumors what? please someone tell me. Thanks. [e-mail] - shannon