Inflicting pain on 'griefers'

As online-game companies court new and wider audiences, many are running into an old problem: "griefers," a small but seemingly irradicable set of players who want nothing more than to murder, loot and otherwise frustrate the heck out of everyone else.

Social miscreants can do more than ruin the game for better-behaved competitors. They can hurt game companies' bottom line by driving away customers and burning up support lines. Problems related to grief players often account for 25 percent or more of customer service calls, according to game publishers.

Now an increasing number of companies are fighting back, using a combination of technology, sociology and psychology to limit griefer damage. Success could be important to the industry's growth, as companies seek to expand beyond the audience of hard-core players to more casual customers, many of whom are unlikely to tolerate bad experiences for long.

News.context

What's new:
An increasing number of game companies are fighting griefer damage using a combination of technology, sociology and psychology.

Bottom line:
As game companies seek to expand beyond hard-core players to more casual customers, stopping troublemakers could have a marked impact on their bottom line.

More stories on online gamers

"A couple of people causing problems can really wreck the game for everybody else," said David Cole, president of research company DFC Intelligence. "I think it's one of the biggest business concerns you have running an online game."

The stakes are big. According to research firm Yankee Group, multiplayer online games had 2.4 million U.S. subscribers and generated $209 million in revenue last year. That's expected to grow to 5.2 million subscribers and $556 million in revenue by 2008.

Standing in the way of such growth are players such as "Evangeline," a "Sims Online" player who became an emblem of the griefer mentality when she described her techniques and motivation in an interview published late last year by online forum The Second Life Herald, formerly known as Alphaville Herald.

Evangeline said she liked to torture new players ("newbies") by luring them into a house specifically designed to trap and torture them. "Newbies are so disgusting...they're the bane of my Sim life," she said. "I'll cage (you) like an animal and have people laugh at (you)."

Ganging up on newbies is typical griefer behavior in games with large multiplayer universes, such as "Sims Online" or "EverQuest."

In games such as "EverQuest" that include player-vs.-player combat, griefers typically lure new players into hidden areas, then kill them and loot their corpses for valuable in-game goods. One of the most common griefer tactics is to camp out at "spawn spots"--locations where characters enter the game world after dying or logging off--and attack arriving players the second they materialize.

Dissecting griefer dysfunction
Such behavior may not be strictly against the rules of the game, but it violates the social contract between players and can quickly send new players packing for the real world.

"You never get a second chance to make a first impression," said Cameron Ferroni, general manager for Microsoft's Xbox Live online-game service, recalling old Head & Shoulders commercials.

John Suler, a psychologist at Rider University in Lawrenceville, N.J., has studied deviant behavior in online game communities and found that griefers fall into two basic camps.

"Some of them are kind of antisocial types, where their cause is to fight the authority figure," Suler said. "They take more pleasure in the grief they cause for the company that runs the game. That may stem back to difficult relations with parents and authority figures."

For the other basic type of griefer, it's personal.

"Sometimes it's just a matter of wanting to hurt other people, cause grief for them," Suler said. "It might be a form of displacement for people who have been victimized in other areas of their life. They cope by turning the passive into the active: 'Now I'm the person who victimizes other people.'"

Dealing with both types may start with mom's advice about bullies: Ignore them, and they'll go away. "They want attention," Suler said, "so if you ignore them, they may give up."

Mitigating damage
Sony Online Entertainment, publisher of "EverQuest" and the newer "Star Wars Galaxies," relies heavily on social structures to mitigate griefer damage, said George Scotto, vice president of customer service.

With tens of thousands of players involved in each game daily, Sony can't police everything, Scotto said. Thus, he added, much of the work of keeping games

[David Arbogast]

Cry Me a River

Bunch of nannies.
Hey, if you publish a game that lets players kill each other, then players should be allowed to kill each other. Period. If your game playing rules are not backed up by technological limitations, then you'll lose subscribers by forcing them to adhere to social conduct rules. Hey, if we wanted social rules, we'd be at a social event, not in our dark rooms logged into our consoles. Build better games, not more rules.

"We have certain criteria people have to play by," he said. "If we catch you doing something cheesy, we ban you."
---Game players banned for doing something cheesy? Count me out of that game. Its nothing but subjective and childish interpretation of player's actions. EA's Ultima Online has a nice solution... and a very hands-off approach by most GMs. Check it out.

In the end, these companies will do whatever they want, as they own their networks. However, the companies that try to enforce arbitrary or subjective rulings will find fewer and fewer content subscribers.

[Below Meigh]

Realworld is amplified in VirtualWorld

Blaming the companies for "griefers"? That is an irresponsible response if I've ever read one. I wouldn't be surprised if you are one of these "griefers" with your response.

Yes, the game companies do need to be more responsible (Microsoft Games need to police its Gamertags...there are a few that are offensive to parents and children). Do we segregate ages? Peewee leagues? Minor leagues? Majors? We do it in sports.

Psych evaluations? Ender's Game comes to mind.

But the true individual that signs up to ruin the game for several is ruining it for all. Crying foul is one thing. Cutting them off is another.

Good luck doing it. It is appreciated. Especially with responses like "nannies" ... That is why we have umpires, referees, and law enforcement in real life. You think you can escape it in "paid for" gaming? Think again.

Can't wait to read headlines in the news "Gamer allegedly plots and kills victims that taunted him/her online!" Microcosms...

[Far Star]

An obvious griefer

Sad and pitiful...

Some people want to just have a good gaming experiance; others (like David) just want to beat up on other players in the game.

I'm glad the game I play distinguishes between the two by their interactions with others and evens things out for all, especially the casual players. SOE and others don't have the faintest idea how to keep all camps happy. I took some guys in Iceland to get it right.

Oh, and why is it that EQ and SWG get to be a shining example of MMOGs? Neither are very innovative or that interesting. These guys need to check out a real game: EVE Online. Truly persistent, massively complex yet easy to play, and best of all ONE SERVER FOR ALL TO PLAY ON! That?s right; we are all on one (1) server. Want to play a game with 9-12,000 others on at the same time, in the same ?world'? EVE Online. It puts the ?M? in massive.

They just rolled out the latest expansion (FREE btw) and the game kicks serious ***. :)

Peace.

[Fray9]

Ok

Ok David just close CNet news and open back up CounterStrike.

Were talking about real online games here, where its not just a frag-fest where it doesnt matter what happens but rather a game where you have real time invested and have worked hard for what you have. A game in which a griefer will do anything to take away from you everything they can. If you had saved up for 6 months to buy a car and someone stole it from you, would you say "Oh well"? Would you want the police to do something about it? If they took it seriously would you call them "nannies"?

Sure in some cases the game design allows PvP but it is included for one reason only: to allow pvp combat in order to make the game more fun for those interested in participating. Very few people find it much fun to have such combat forced upon them when they dont want to participate. If you want to box you can go to a ring and fight in a fair fight. But if someone ran up to you on the street and started punching you for no reason, would you enjoy it?

They Really Ought To...

Someone ought to make a game called Griefers Online just for people who think it's cool to mess with other people for the sole goal of ruining another person's day. I'm sure that should you enter a game with a community that consists entirely of people like yourself, where the objective is to do what you are so eager to defend (most likely because it's why you play MMOs), that you'd be next in line for the Wahmbulance.

Personally, I find griefers to be the lowest common denominator. People who regularly and intentionally practice poor gamesmanship and who seek to deprive their fellow gamers of a fun, competetive and enjoyable gaming experience to build themselves up are despicable. You can wave your uber leet flag and chant your "it's only a game" mantra till you fall out of your chair and it still doesn't change the fact that you're engaging in seriously antisocial behavior and that what you're defending is wrong.

What you're championing is not powergaming or twinking or competition, all of which are respectable and healthy gaming activities. It's cheating (in many cases), exploiting and taking advantage of people. If you want the pride and satisfaction of emerging victorious over another player, you can get that by PvPing honestly and fairly with your equals. Ganking some poor noob or exploiting to kill another player isn't a victory and it's nothing to be proud of. It's just a cheap shot against someone who stands no chance due to inexperience or game mechanics. If that turns you on and makes you feel like you've accomplished something big, you have serious issues.

Glitches

The article spoke about taking advantage of glitches to grief other players. It is the responsability of the Game developer to ensure that those glitches don't exist. If a game allows me to set players up a certain way to make it impossible for another player to advance, and this isn't part of the game design, then the game itself is lacking. I'm surprised that the article didn't reflect this.

[Far Star]

Not just glitches

You only concentrated on the last half of the article.

I agree with you, in the case of buggy programming (rare in console games, much less so in PC games) it falls to the producer / developer to ensure that a game is bug free. Of course a 100% bug / exploit free game is virtually impossible (note I'm a game beta tester, I know more than I can say) and some games even have hidden (cheat) codes to improve player experience.

The focus of the article is about players using what is in the game to cause grief for other players that want to just play the game. Though griefers use exploits, codes, and hacks to achieve their goals, the worst ones use the actual game mechanics to inflict loss and pain on other players. It?s easy to catch the ones that are too unskilled to win without cheating, just look at Valve?s Anti Cheat system and Punkbuster (considered the gold standard of anti-cheating tools).

But those that use the game mechanics, the ?social? engineering to lure others into traps (or just spawn camp) are far worse than the script kiddie using the latest hack. In the MMOG world(s) this is considered by many as unacceptable when done to new players or those that are simply in the game as a casual player. The MMOG community is built on social interaction and when that interaction is suspect then that game?s infrastructure begins to fail. When you have to trust the person on the other side of that character avatar but trust is impossible, it?s no fun playing the game and you move on to find another.

That is the main point of the entire article. The developers that make these MMOG worlds are trying to make the ?griefing hard so the people in the game that are not interested in getting PvPed and capped / podded every time they come online will stay in their game / world. You can say it?s because they want to make money but so what, that?s why they are in the business, to make money and provide others with entertainment ... just not at the expense of some players "fun" over others.

Indignant griefers ... lol

Most important thing to know about griefers is that their business isn't worth the trouble. That's why bars have bouncers.

Let griefers write games for griefers ... and see how little that accomplishes. Sounds like Iraq.

[mcugaedu]

Usenet has had this since the 80s

"Griefers" are just like the people who try to disrupt Usenet newsgroups by posting harassing and forged messages. I dealt with one of these just yesterday, but they've been a problem since the advent of newsgroups. I think they are lacking some higher brain functions.

About time someone exposed these ppl. Yahoo Towers has had this for years

There should be a followup on the griefer in Yahoo Towers who has had absolutely nothing better to do in the past six years except to DOMINATE the first 10 tables with his bots. The average change of Host for the tables has been fewer than a dozen players a month, whereas the average would expectedly to be in the thousands.

At one point, this griefer committed a Denial of Service by creating 255 Tables and making them all private. Players could get into the anteroom, but could not make tables or do anything beyond chatting or moving to another anteroom.
I feel that Yahoo has not taken steps to remove this player.
As a result, this game has seriously dwarfed in popularity.

Additional Information

He/she/it Resides in the Empire State Building Anteroom and his/her/it's ID is typically something along the likes of Kobe_1999_99 or Agoer_(Year) where year is whatever year he's using and is "Standing" at the table, that is on the right side of the tableset, reserved for people who are at a table but not seated for play.

a tad inaccurate...do your research.

**QUOTE** "In games such as "EverQuest" that include player-vs.-player combat, griefers typically lure new players into hidden areas, then kill them and loot their corpses for valuable in-game goods."

Everquest does NOT have PvP combat, you CANNOT loot other player's corpses...and honestly...what "valuable" in-game goods would a "newbie" have?

The articles issued to newbies are non-tradable, non-sellable, and are usually subpar quality, until they can get something better through hunting, etc..

Honestly, if you join an on-line gaming community, and there is a PvP option, then you know what you are getting yourself into. VERY few people actually join a PvP server, a la DAOC or WoW without exactly knowing WHAT they are getting into.

As far as griefing newbies, or causing trouble for them...perhaps it's because they have been following whoever is in the vicinity incessantly for three hours begging and whining for (pick one) a) money b) armor c) weapons d)power levelling.

Correction

Let me just add that EQ DID have PvP combat...on only the Zek servers...which I believe there were 2-3.

The majority of EQ was NOT PvP.

[Bob_Barker]

You can't stop griefing...

As a 7 year MMO veteran. (Playing many MMO's since the first days of Ultima Online) There's nothing you can do to stop griefing. Just make it more difficult.

Exploiting a game's glitches isn't "griefing". It's cheating. It's the company's responsibility to fix this. Player's who use bots to exploit these glitches should of course be banned. It's common sense.

But, if you're a new player, games(I'm referring to a PvP oriented game or games featuring PvP related activities) will typically have "safe zones" to start out in where you are safe from attack. Ok, no problem.

Now if you're this new player and a more experienced player turns on the "social engineering" to lure you to a place where you can be killed and have things in your inventory stolen then you're not being "griefed"... you're being naive. Virtual communities have all types of people in them. Just like the real-world. So what do you do? Live and learn.

The true "griefer", in my opinion, is a person who is a constant harrassment. Either they camp "spawing points", shout obscenities(most games have an ignore player function), running around your virtual house with sword swinging wildly for hours on end to the point that it prevents you from doing anything for a rediculous amount of time; maybe then a "griefing policy" could be put into effect.

For example, a virtual cop could chase (stronger than they could possibly defeat) the griefer down for an hour or send them to a temoprary suspension area... depending on the severity of their griefing. Call it divine intervention for the sake of fair play. It depends on the game world's rules. That's just an idea however.

My point is, most griefing can be controlled by the player having wits about them. And if you don't like the possiblity of being killed or harrased, quit the game or go play a more "care-bearish" game like the Sims.

As far as the social aspects of griefers in game. I'm sure they may have real-life problems and take it out on their fellow virtual citizens. But isn't that the point of games? To escape our real problems for a few hours and live out some sort of fantasy? Whether we're a cold-blooded killer or a knight in shining armor.

Of course I'm sure gaming companies don't really care to create a truly "free" game world so people don't have a hard time getting their "Stick of squirrel slaying +1". Instead of making players eachother's obstacle they make the game's challenge that of time. How many hours are you willing to "level up" rather than compete? I'm getting side-tracked now so I'll bring this to a close.

What it all comes down to is appealing to the majority and rasing revenue. Smart business I suppose but that usually stifles freedom for the player and game play innovation. I digress.

/rant off

Of course you can't stop griefers

Just like you can't completely stop people like that in real life, griefers are always going to be a problem. However, this doesn't mean that it is a complete waste of time. Simply cutting down on the problem is a huge help.

[fe_plus]

Dude, griefing RULES!

First off, playing a text-based online game like telnet://medievia.com:4000/ is much more flexible and fun. Second, like said previously, you simply can't completely cut out griefing completely. You can make some restrictions, but if you take out all that makes griefing possible, then you cut out a large part of what makes the game's fun possible too.

For example, you used to be able to poison food with a magic spell and slip it into people's inventories. Haha that was awesome! Next thing you know, the newbie is choking on the fish they just took a bite out of and you can then reveal yourself and laugh at them and slam high-5's with your friends! Eventually they banned players from being able to put stuff in other players' inventories. Bogus!

Okay so that wasn't the best example but you get the point. If you make too many restrictions you cut away every gamer's dimension of freedom too. Not cool!

Griefing is not fun for everyone

Your right to enjoy the game ends when you try to use it to infringe of the same right others have.

Maybe companies could set up a separate server where it's "anything goes" but most players do not want to deal with that stuff. Games are played to have fun and most people do not see that as fun.

[Myztikal]

Griefing the Griefer

Ultima Online didn't get a mention in the article [As per usual] but having recently experienced some rather intense player "justice" on the shard/Server I have just started playing on.. I felt the need to share a few tidbits...

Siege Perilous is a server where your reputation preceeds you.. everyone on the shard is known.. [be it by guild or in person] and you will be treated with whatever respect [or lack of it] you deserve..

There is the usual player vs player fighting and stealing that is part of gameplay of course.. but the entire server was recently united against a common enemy [A griefer/Scammer] by the name of Lilly [in game]...
I wont go into exactly the full story behind it.. but suffice to say their life within the game.. is now a living hell.. they are blacklisted by EVERYONE on the server... and have been issued with a "Kill on Sight" label..

Heres a link to a thread showing a bit of the story....

http://boards.stratics.com/php-bin/uo/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=uosiegeperil&Number=5578839&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&what2=postlist&fpart=

Sorry its a bit long.. but if you've ever been "scammed" or "griefed" in game.. its well worth a look!..

Player justice.. at its finest!

Quite wrong

As being a player in some Online-games i have to say that the things said in this topic are totally wrong. I agree in the part where a girl was caging new players in sims-online and just killing them with no reason but in games like Everquest and EVE-online PvP is a very important part of the game. Killing somebody else has a purpose, either this be the loot or the money but it has a purpose and it IS a carreer in the game which makes it more realistic in a way. Having PvP in a game and having people playing in a "dirty" way is not bad and it sure doesn't show that this player is a psycopath. It's just the way some people have fun and it gives something to the game. A variety.

Now i really don't like this article and know that at least most of the EVE-online community doesn't like it as seen on the below topic:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=137106


Yours Sincerely, Alex Kyriazakos.

I have a DOCTORITE in MMORPG's.

I noticed a few other replie's with the same response I am about to give. Forgive me if my grammar is not up to par. Us gamer's use alot of acronym's and gaming lingo's.

Note that anyone who would like to go out and research some of this yourself, feel free, and respond here if you like, and you can do that by checking out any major forums on any major gaming board, to read up on what literally hundred's of thousand's of people say back and forth on both side's of the fence.

This article was poorly designed, and I am as a reader am saying the FACT's are anything but correct. I did not go to school as a doctor, or a psychologist and no I will not recite some idea out of a book to describe a group of people as "Social miscreants can do more than ruin the game for better-behaved competitors. " but I will however, point out the fact that it is pretty much literally the complete opposite.
( I only have 4 year's of college is all )

My background (which I think may be of good use to the reader's) is as follow's.

For close to 16 year's I have played computer games. In the beginning games such as Wizardry, and The Bard's Tale. Up to the more current MMORPG's that are in big display in this time.

From the original and best game ever, UO ULTIMA ONLINE up to the point where they shot themselves in the foot, by creating the real reason behind GRIEFING by creating the CareBear society, referred to as Trammel, as well as other big games such as AC Asheron's Call, EQ Everquest, SB ShadowBane, DAOC Dark Age of Camelot, and now WOW World of Warcraft. Anywhere from a couple hours a day up to 12+ hours in any given day usually being weekends and such for at least 7-8 years straight. From the creation to the current, I have lived in the trenches of MMORPG's. (For those who are cynical yes I do eat 3 square meals a day, find time to work out, have a healthy relationship, a few pets, and a wonderful day job.)

GREIFer's are in fact not "Social miscreants who can do nothing more than ruin the game for better-behaved competitors. "

Let me break this down for a minute. Better Behaved " COMPETITOR's " Competition right?
In hockey the last team wins the CUP. In MMORPG's there are many forms of the fame and fortune.

Few terms for the viewers to help things out.

PvP = PEOPLE Vs PEOPLE (IE: competition)

Meaning unlike Mario Bros with cheat codes, where you never die, no risk, no reward, things are a little boring after a few rounds
In PvP much like playing chess, you put your wits, skills, strategies and abilities up against other players, because that group of people are much more challenged and love the rewards of playing against other people, rather then playing against AI Artificial intelligence at best which you can figure out within minutes, and is really no huge achievement.

Carebear's (IE: people who do not like to lose)

Carebear was a name given to people who do not like any sort of competition at all. I am not being unfair in any fashion, just being honest, Non PvPer's Carebear's tend to stay in groups, maybe take the occasional ingame quest for fun, and overall prefer to just sociolize with online buddies more so then not, and tend to just enjoy the game more so for the artwork, scenery, and creativity more so then the backbone of which a MMORPG was created on.

GRIEFER's (IE: people who complain, grief)

Oxymoron in the sense, but if someone is a griefer, who grief's alot, isn't it fair to think they are complaining about something? Sure it is tried to be pointed out that an individual such as the "Social miscreants that can do nothing more than ruin the game for better-behaved competitors. " but it is not.

Most MMORPG's have the option when you subscibe, and log on, to CHOOSE, thus having a CHOICE, to decide if you want to be part of the PvP environment or not. PvP server's where people can log onto, are rules where one individual, can interact with another person, and it is a well known thing, written and posted everywhere, that it is about competition, and people will have access to attack you ingame, via ingame competition and your CHOICE to play on this server is given consent that you are aware of the rules, and are encouraged by this type of gameplay.

There are Non PvP servers, which you have the option to play if you would like, and these servers are usually the "Carebear" servers.
Which has no PvP, and for the most part, no action much at all, just routine that take place, such as questing, or grouping and killing monsters with little to no risk, and or sitting in town with a bunch of friends, sitting around a camp fire, telling stories, using lingo containing alot of THOU's, Hail and Bow Ye Low's.

The way MMORPG's are now it resolves the issues of the GRIEFER's the best, but still isn't complete, for there will always be people who want things their way, do not like things the way they are, and will go around GRIEFING about it.

To properly explain the facts here, I need to go into the history just a little, for those who havn't played much into the MMORPG, or none at all. Before most of these newer games came out, and the multi servers, the first major well known game was UO. Ultima Online had 1 type of server, and everyone was thrown into the mix. We all started at the same starting point, with all the same rules, and that was plain and simple.

By nature, this being first and foremost a GAME, that who ever play's, want's to have fun. Short story most of who first got into MMORPG's of this design, (non including quake, halflife, doom, etc) were pretty much the folk's who, BUT not limited to, those who 15 year's ago sat in their parent's basement, playing D&D Dungeons & Dragons.
Course many year's later the random kid buying a random game also brought some customer's to the table. For the most part, the way the politic's of the game went, the economic's, the socity in which life grew was simple, and the rules were easy. The way the game was designed, to follow the traditions of D&D. Adventure, Exploration, Excitment, Danger, Fear's, etc.

In UO all that was present and everyone was aware you were to set out in search of great monster's, great treasure's, and great battle's against other force's out in the world. (Where the competition come's into play) As you made your character, set out into the wood's in hope to slay your first Grizzly Bear you run across, to only find yourself laying on the ground dead, to this monsterous beast, if pretty much the first thing everyone realize's in the game. You just died. It is a game. You go back to town, buy more gear, and head back out to the wood's to fair yourself against something smaller this time, more then likely a bird or a rabbit.
Feeling proud that you now hang your dead rabbit's hide's in your backpack, your off to town to sell your new wares. Skipping along a couple month's, you find yourself pretty powerful now, not only taking on that Grizzly bear who ate you for lunch when you first started, but your also taking on great elemental's and other huge monster's, including dragon's. Knowing this is how the game work's, you enjoy the style in which it is played. Now the competition which is heard about, is from the start to present, there are many other player's in the online world, some of which are higher level's then you, some are lower. The competiton which is PvP is when your out and you run across another person, and you engage in battle, and the victorious one being the one who get's your loot, and item's now as their reward for their victory, much like the Grizzly Bear did to you month's ago. Some times you die, sometime's you win, and you get the reward. It is part of the game and you learn this. NATURE of the beast if you will..

Now where GRIEFer's come into play. GREEDINESS.
Go to the casino, you win or lose. If you lose, do you go to the manager asking for your money back?? No.. HAHAHA

In game, when you are attacked by someone, and you die, and you lose your item's, then go back to town, and try to request an In Game Manager to take time out of their busy work schedule's to hear your complaint's, and the complaint is that you just died to another player out of town, well umm that just does not make sense.

Greedy people who want to play a game, but never want to lose anything, well then they whine, complain, and go around GRIEFING everything to everyone, how the game company stinks, the game stinks, and how it is a bad creation. Do not play poker, if your not willing to risk losing some money. Hence the creation of GRIEFER's.

So for a smart company, they encorporate everyone, because the bottom dollar is what decide's how a game is played or not. So they made carebear server's for those people who want to go fight monster's, and not lose any item's to the monster's, and prevent's PvP. Thus no more dieing, no more risk or reward, no more people vs people competition, leaving their little tale's of old around the campfire.

That is how the MMORPG world evolved, and how it work's. Just in my own opinion of course.
Many hundred's of thousand's out there just like me all knowing the same thing.

[Fray9]

Problem is

The problem with your explaination is that like most real griefers your trying to confuse just what a griefer is.

What you described is a whiner and they are common and mostly harmless.

Real greifing is taking that high level character that can slay dragons and killing the new player trying to fight rabbits over and over just to torture them.

A true griefer is someone who wants to PvP but cant stand to lose so will do anything he can to prevent the fight from being fair, whether that be using exploits, hacks, abusing game mechanics (like attacking a player while their computer is loading the game and they cant fight back) or just plain mass killing new players that dont stand a chance.

The carebear term actually first came from groups that would defend the lower level players from griefers and has since evolved to encompass all persons who do not want to participate in non-consentual pvp and is commonly used by griefers as an insult.

Which may explain to you why griefers and old school self-proclamed carebears are still mortal enemies.

For someone who claims to be old school you sure dont seem to understand the terms and ways, what they've become now and why griefers are, without exception, universally hated by the rest of civilized online society.

Doctorite?

Okay, I might be a little more impressed with your doctorate in Online Games if you could actually spell doctorate. As an educated, mature, longtime player of MMOs I find your post to be biassed, nonfactual and sadly misrepresentative of the online gaming community's general nature.

I and my SO of over a decade have been gaming together for almost as long as we could afford more than one gaming machine. He is among the extremely competetive variety of gamer, excelling at PvP, PvM and the mechanics of twinking/PLing. I am a more casual, social type of player but still hold my own in all of these things. One could say I am typical and he is uber.

Niether of us like griefers and both of us are in complete agreement that there is a growing number of these irritating little kill-joys moving into the gaming community. Your stated views portray you to be just such a person. Lack of conscience, sociopathic behaviors and a serious lack of respect for the enjoyment of liesure activity time of other players disguised as "competetiveness" is the hallmark of the griefer.

And by the way, "griefer" in gamespeak means a person who is looking to ruin the fun of others for their own gratification, not someone who complains a lot. If you're going to defend people who like nothing more in their games than to steal the enjoyment of others with a bogus Doctorate and big boasts of being some leet gamer, at least get your terminology right.

Sure, the article in question isn't completely accurate. I find that the media has difficulty finding the facts when it comes to things its writers don't really understand from an insider's PoV. However, they do brush against some very true points and their hypothesis on what makes griefers act like a bunch of nasty little tools isn't very far off the mark in a lot of cases.

My current game's community had an encouraging victory over our community's griefers just yesterday. The game company finally took the issue seriously and made an example by disbanding a guild that was notorious for griefing other experienced players. Personally, I'm glad to see it. Griefing, IMO, is a kind of theft. It is an intentional and deliberate attempt to take the value someone else is paying real money for away from them. It's about time the game companies stepped up to the plate to address the issue.

When psycho bable becomes the new religion.

After reading this article, I first laughed so hard, that i almost burst into tears, then i reflected a bit, and tried to find the real meaning behind this "socalled" article.

I have been working as a Therapist for almost 8 years, been around the block, working with disfunctional youngsters, repeating young criminals, misguided second generation immigrants, and are right now employed at a brainrehab clinique.

The "Social heritage" and its resurfing problems in society, have been discussed amongst proffessionals, for almost a century now. I am not here to go deeper into that wide field of of different aspects and conjoured solutions to problems caused by "social heritage", but in this year gone by, i have read the one article after another, often by renowned persons withi the field of social studies, therapists claiming to have found the one solution to the problem and so on.

It has even boiled down learning theses, on social institutions, teaching the up and comming therapist in my country, that "social heritage", is the root to all problems, and solutions to understand and prevent damage from, individuals harmed in this way, is adamant to focus on.

Nothing could be more wrong. I admit that "social heritage", do play a role in understanding an individuals actions, but to say people who grief in Online games, are social disfunctional, or otherwise non adaptable to society in large, its like claiming that, the UN is run by stranded aliens on this planet.

Griefers in games, comes in a wide variety of shades.

People who kill other players online in PvP games, have several reasons to do this

1: for fun.
2: the thrill of jousting with another human online.
3:Boredom.

and so on and so on.

I admit there are individuals, who have problems when playing an online game, but these persons have a wide variety of disorders, if you go in a disect the problem. These problems could have something to do with "social heritage", but could also be related to real disorders, where the game only acts as a vent to filter it out in the open.

David Becker, the author of the article "Inflicting pain on griefers" 13th december, here on this site. Clearly lacks the skills to illustrate this.

As a gamer myself, an experienced one, i have been following the onlinegame universe for the last 12 years, and i have meet my fair share of "idiots" on the other side of chatchannels or ingame, but there problem often sprang from immaturity, and the lack of social skills, you develop as you grow older.

Common sense, have always been the best way to look at problems, with a social dimension.

I could argue that, since online violence, "griefing", spurs from persons with social disorders, that you should forbid Pro Football, Icehokey or NBA basketball, since you see real life violence, in these sports.

Are these participants, of said sports, all people who are social disfunctional, because they express their compettioness on the field, and that it sometimes erupts into real fights for all to see ?

I think not.

Dear Mr.Becker if you want contribute, to a discussion that has been ongoing, in the worklife of therapist, the last century, please get your facts straight, and get deeper into layers, that surrounds this theme".

Sorry for my english, I am a Native Dane.

[Fray9]

And again

And again the definition of griefer is twisted.

As Ive mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the commonly accepted definition for a greifer is someone who exploits the game mechanics or evens goes so far as to alter the way the game works in order to facilitate the torture of another player by trapping them in a situation they cant escape and are powerless to defend themself from.

PvP is just one way in which it is manifested since it is typically the most damaging and easily exploited facet of an online game.

Consentual PvP in which two or more people match wits and skills to see who is the best is not griefing.

PKing (attacking another player against their wishes) is also not griefing.

Taking a high level character and using it to repeatedly kill a brand new character that has no chance of fighting back simply to get a cheap thrill from it and to ruin the other players day (hence giving you some small sense of power over them) is griefing.

And while I agree that not all griefing is a manifestation of a RL disorder or anti-social tendencies, to broadly proclaim that all griefers are normal and that it couldnt possibly be a symptom of perhaps a more serious problem is irresponsible as best.

It would be hard for anyone, Id say, to think that someone who delights in torturing people weaker than them are exhibiting healthy social behaviour.

griefies get what they deserve

sory, no sympathy here.

Player vs Player orientated games are just that player vs player.

this means the killing of each others avatars

when a person willingly plays a game where he can be killed by any means, then, well, qq more noob go back to your bluebie gaming.

nuff said.

/emote rolls eyes

The social contract theory has no place in online games. There are far more substantive and easily enforced codes of conduct in both the EULA and in game mechanics. Simply put, if the dev's don't want players to do something either make it impossible or illegal to do.

The Social Contract theory asks gamers to voluntarily eschew PVP systems designed specifically to allow players to fight each other. That's like playing Halo and asking people not to throw grenades.

Ascribing real world psychology for in game actions is similarly senseless. If there was any correlation, then the sales of Grand Theft Auto would indicate the existence of millions of deviant, murderous gang-bangers in our midst.

Gamers who dislike Pvp should avoid games that allow it, instead of signing up, knowing full well the game provides for Pvp, and crying about it after the fact.

Other features

You seriously expect companies to tell players, "Just stay away if you don't like this one little part of our game." Even aside from the money side that is incredibly stupid.
Take Everquest for example. It had PvP as an option. The game is supposed to work so that if a player does not want PvP they do not have to participate. EQ set up separate servers for those who want PvP, but the people who didn't want it and avoided those servers for a reason still got it pushed onto them.

One small, often optional, aspect of a game should not be a reason for players to avoid the whole thing.

[Fray9]

This isnt about pvp

This isnt about pvp.

Griefing is exploiting the game mechanics in such a way as to torture another player with absolutely no risk to yourself.

If you can grief in Sims online and you think its about PvP then you seriously need a clue.

Knowing what we talk about

Reading some other replys i got the impression that some people read the same thing but understand something else. "Griefing" has nothing to do with competition, nor show "griefers" any form of respect to the terms and rules of the games the y are using.

PvP combat is an esential part of quite some MMOGs and taking it away would take away from the games. However the idea behind that is a somewhat fair competition. I and myopponent race through a dungeon and after some exciting minutes, i am dead. 10 more minutes later i can laugh with the person that beat me about the stupid mistake that cost me a fair part of my stuff. But fact is, we both had fun and it could have ended either way. A characteristic of "griefers" is that they avoid competition. They try all the can to avoidplayers of compareable power or figures of authority. They only and exclusively pick on players that don't even have a 1 in a million chance to defend themselves against them.
I think a "griefers" intention is not to beat you in a game but to drive you from the game. There are many ways to do that and they probably differ from game to game.
Old and veteran players know how to deal with such things. We have either means of escape ourselves, or strong enough to defeat them without much effort or know enough people who would help us if in trouble. What often troubles me about this issue is, that "griefers" are in it with their heart. They devise really cunning plans and invest lots of time to make life miserable for others. And gamewise, there is little they gain by doing what they do.

Myexperience comes not onlyfrom playing but also from taking part in running such games. A great concern has always been how new players can be introduced and made familiar with the game. In PvP games there often are areas where one is safe, as was saidin other comments. Additionaly new players are often protected from being attacked by other players till they have reached a certain point in their virtual life. However "griefers" will try to find a way around these limitations in the code. If they are forbidden to kill by direct means, they will try indirect means. Most common here are probably preventing flight, causing starvation or drowning, strengthening mobiles and bringing strong mobiles in areas explicitely designed for new palyers. This is also true for games that completely forbig PvP action.
And to contradict a quote from the oroginaö post, Making the game non-PvP won't help. "Greeifers" are clever, they will find a way around it.

Limiting playerinteraction to mere chat takes too much from the game. Playing only with known friends isn't really compatible with the idea of MMOGs.

The only way i see is to ban them from playing. Its a tedious task and requires much work that could be better used to improve them game itself, but i fear its necessary. With commercial gameswhere one has to identify himself to paly and pay, this seems to be manageable. But for games that are free of charge and usualy don't require an identification to play, this is very problematic.

Ben

[Fray9]

Thank you

Thank you for explaining quite well what Ive been trying to say.

Finally a voice of reason that understands the issue, rather than jumping to conclusions or thinking that "PvPer" and "griefer" are interchangable terms.

SOE talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk

I'm surprised by George Scotto's comments in this article.

I play Everquest Online Adventures on a PAL server (European & Australian server). Back in September a loophole was discovered that gave players access to features of Frontiers, the EQOA expansion that is played on US NTSC servers but is not available in PAL territories. After reporting this loophole in accordance with the Rules & Conditions of the game, we were told that it was not intended, it would be fixed, players who had already exploited it would be reset; and in the meantime please do not use the loophole.

While we were waiting for SOE to take the promised action, our guild and many of the other larger respected guilds made sure that our members did not exploit the loophole - as we have always felt it our responsibility to help maintain the community, as described by George Scotto above. This was frustrating, as many other players from the less respected guilds went ahead and abused the loophole contrary to SOEs instructions, giving them considerable advantage over the honest players and creating an imbalance in the community. We took solace in our belief that SOE would eventually implement the promised fixes and these 'glitchers' would be reset.

We have now been told that although SOE has now prevented any more players from exploiting the loophole, those players who have already exploited it - contrary to their own Rules & Conditions - will not be reset. They will be allowed to keep the benefits that they have obtained. In short, they will be rewarded for their disregard of the rules and given advantages that are not available to the honest players who strived to maintain the community.

Their actions make a mockery of every word George Scotto said in the article above.

The Griefers Advocate

This is in response to the earlier post ?I have a DOCTORITE in MMORPG?s? (yes he spells it DOCTORITE) in which the author tries to convey his grief over the virtual death of PvP within the particular game he plays. While he seemed to have had a hard time expressing his opinions, I think I understand the point the he is trying to make and I would to try to elaborate on it further.
I played Ultima Online for a year while it was still a purely PvP. At that time the only place you were safe from player killers were within the invisible borders of the games towns. Players could kill with impunity anywhere else within the game. Unfortunately, the areas where you could be killed were the same and the only areas where you could find resources, animals, and monsters. If you wanted to make a living, you had to except that you would be killed on a somewhat regular basis. This system was both entertaining and infuriating at the same time. I remember being in a dungeon and being warned of the approach of a large group of Pkers. I used my particular skill to hide in a corner and watched as they arrived and searched the area. In real life I was literally holding my breath and sweating, however when it was all over and the Pkers finally left (without even knowing I was there), I felt like I just had one of the coolest gaming experiences ever. On the extreme other hand, one day I was just walking out of the town limits and ?BOP!?, I was dead from a surprise Pk attack by players many times more powerful than myself. Needless to say things got thrown, and accounts almost got canceled.
The problem is it is totally ridiculous for a player to be getting killed almost every time he goes out to try and chop some wood. It is equally ridiculous for any player to be under no risk of getting killed whatsoever. Ultima Online decided to solve this dilemma by splitting it straight down the middle, literally! Two worlds were created and PvPers were banished to the ugly half, where the scenery consisted of dead trees and graves, and the ?nice? people were separated and thrown in the ?nice half? where tree?s and flowers bloom and no one ever gets killed by anyone else. At first I was overjoyed! I instinctively chose the nice half. For a week it was great! I got to increase my skills, get cool weapons, armor, role-play with other people, and without the constant harassment from PvPers I was finally able to develop my character enough that I could be competitive. It was time to take my skills and put them to use in the ?bad? world against the ?bad? players! I got my most powerful sword and took the inter-dimensional doorway into the ?bad? world?. Then just as quickly turned around. ?Why are you doing this?? I asked myself. Why would I go to this other, meaner world when it would most likely mean that I would eventually be killed and lose everything I worked so hard to get. I know I could kill another player and get his belongings, but I can get better stuff more quickly in the ?easy world?. Do I have any real reason to kill anyone here anyway? They can?t get at the ?nice? people anymore so their technically not even evil players! So I returned to ?nice? world, but after nearly maxing out my characters skills I started to lose the joy of playing. There were ?nice? little quests and joining a guild presented a ?nice? little opportunity to socialize, but something was missing, I can?t explain it. I was never a fan of griefing or Pking, yet the fact remains that I played for a year under PvP rules, but permanently cancelled my account within two weeks after the so called ?solution?.
I think the message Mr. ?I have a DOCTORITE? was trying to convey was that the solution Ultima used to solve its griefing issue was like cutting off a patients legs to cure planters warts. I?m pretty sure that if I was an enthusiastic and ?competitive? player like him, I would feel like I just had a rug pulled out from underneath me, and would I want my money back for a game that was sold to me under the implied pretence that I could play ?against? other players. Conversely, if I was a dedicated role-player I would expect a game that is supposed to allow such character development to allow me to continue do so. I would expect that if I kept my character out of trouble I should stay alive, all the time.
To sum it all up, I believe that the methods MMORPG?s are using to control Griefing are keeping the games from being as fun as they could be for everyone. Someone who doesn?t want to play a PvP role should not be subject to indiscriminate killing, or have his/her game play experience limited. On the other hand I find it hard to believe that such players would abhor the idea of their character being killed if it was only a very, very small possibility. I don?t think that it was ?player killing? itself that spawned the mass complaints resulting in PvP restrictions, rather it was the fact that the killings were constant, unfair and unrealistic. A dynamic system to allow PvP and PvE to truly co-exist is not available in any current MMORPG?s, although some games make an honest effort. Is a single united PvP and PvE MMORPG world possible? Only time will tell.

[BicuriuosGeorge]

Just to clarify: I am a griefer (not on pc games though. i dont play those because i have something called a *****. only on halo 3) I just wanna say that I lol'd a few times while reading this. the whole griefing 'psychology' thing was just hilarious. none of those things apply to me. I grief because I find it funny how ppl react to it. its that simple. I donno if this applies to ppl who grief on mmorpg because as far as im concerned all people who play mmorpg's are ******* losers.