April 5, 2005 6:22 AM PDT

Hybrid-car tinkerers scoff at no-plug-in rule

Hybrid cars that can be plugged in to wall outlets are supported by a diverse group of interests, from neoconservatives to utilities.
The New York Times

The story "Hybrid-car tinkerers scoff at no-plug-in rule" published April 5, 2005 at 6:22 AM is no longer available on CNET News.

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Electricity is FREE
All the city dwellers would LOVE to move the
pollution out to the country.
Since no oil is used in the production of
electric power, we get out from under the Arabs.
All power lines have no resistance to the generation of the power miles away is the
same as generation under your hood.
California is so full of BS.
They won't allow a new power plant
to be built there,
but they want more cars to use electric power.
Look at the cost per KWh and how much it costs
per mile. 100 mpg is nice, but what does it
do to your electric bill?
How much oil does it burn back at the plant?

More Nukes - less kooks.

What about the AZ teacher that has a vehicle that
burns H2?
Posted by swwg69 (48 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Are you serious?
Between your typing style and your utter lack of an organized thought, I have no clue what it is you're trying to say.

Something about nukes, Arabs, and city-dwellers?
Posted by Christopher Hall (1207 comments )
Link Flag
Most incoherent post EVAR
Wow that was ummm bipolar. First off people are opposed to a new power plant because ummm there is that whole radioactive waste thing and meltdowns and death and such surrounding nuclear power plants that makes them unfavorable. You tell me what we are suppose to put some of the nastiest crap on the planet for the next 10,000 years where it will be safely tucked away from nature/people/water table/etc.
Secondly Power Lines DO have resistance. Learn some basic physics why dont you?
As for How much oil does it burn back at the plant Do you even know the primary source of power in California?
The fact of the matter is its easier to deal with one centralized cause of pollution rather then 1,000,000 individual cars/trucks polluting the environment. Its also easier to eventually fix the that one root problem (coal/nuclear) with alternative forms of electricity (Gas/Wind/Hydro/Geothermal) then to outfit those 1,000,000 vehicles with the latest and greatest fuel saving tech.
Posted by Jonathan (804 comments )
Link Flag
PRIUS+ and gas-optional hybrid info
To be sure we're talking all starting from the same information, I urge you to read our 3-page Fact Sheet, found in PDF form at <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.priusplus.org" target="_newWindow">http://www.priusplus.org</a> and in text form at <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news" target="_newWindow">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news</a>

We answer the Q, How Much Cleaner than a Gasoline Car is a PHEV Charged from the Dirty (Coal) Grid? at <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.calcars.org/vehicles.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.calcars.org/vehicles.html</a>

And to keep things lively, weve linked to this and other discussions at <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.calcars.org/kudos.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.calcars.org/kudos.html</a>
Posted by felixkramer (4 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Hybrids still not there
Major car companies Still dont get it.
Hybrid cars on the market today are no more than standard vehicles with an electrical motor shoe-horned in. The engineering sucks. Student groups (on student budgets) have build project electric cars that have greater range, greater power and better economy than these beasts.

Start from scratch with a true four wheel electric (no transmission, no transaxle), then add a power plant for long distance cruising. With an efficiency band gas, diesel, or turbine charger you double your fuel efficiency, and it could be turned off altogether on those gridlock days where you creep along at 2 mph. Anyone who has burned a half tank of gas sitting all day in traffic while choking on exhaust knows what I mean.

New technologies (fuel cells, amorphous photovoltaic, off-peak charging) could easily be added to these cars as they become available. Supplying these technologies would be a boon to the economy and would help America take back some of the market from Asia.

As for increasing demand on the electric grid, wind turbine and solar could finally make a difference as storing power has always been more expensive than creating it - thus off-peak charging could be made available.
Posted by Marcus Westrup (481 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Be realistic
What you are proposing is the so called "series-hybrid". Basically it's an electric vehicle with an on board power generator (it could be an engine connected to a generator to charge a set of battery buffers, or a fuel call stack). In any case it all but proven that the series hybrid is more efficient (as you claim) as the more conventional parallel configuration. I have been doing extensive simulations for a university project on hybrids, and I haven't seen any breakthrough in the series technology. The fact is the prius is by itself a great car. It's neither a series or a parallel and it uses the advantages of both and minimize the disadvantage of both. You can run EV (electric only, that is) in the stop and go trafic with no idle.
Again you don't provide any concrete data showing that there what you are proposing is "better" than the prius, taking into account the price for what is sold.

Also common great misconception. Wind power is a possible alternative, but the enviromental impact is too great (England just stopped a pilot tests because those huge mills were so noisy and not greatly efficient). Solar power still has a very low power and energy density (too little energy generated per mass). As far as storing is more expensive than creating energy is another very questionable topic: What do you mean by creating? nothing is free, and it has in fact quite a high cost.

So let's be realistic: the prius is a good thing in the short period. Hybrids will evolve, as new other possible technologies. But please do not pretend that what we are getting at the dealer is junk. I agree it could be better, but until I see huge unefficient SUVs around, I consider the prius a piece of jewelery.
Posted by feranick (211 comments )
Link Flag
Umm, wow.
So if hydrogen is such a great fuel source, why aren't powerplants using hydrogen as fuel?

Ta.
Posted by Remo_Williams (464 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Short answer.
Because you *need* power to create hydrogen--in the form of electricity or heat, but you need to extract it from water somehow.

That's why it's not good for power plants, but fine for cars. The power plants could be used to produce it, but that still leaves the problem of having clean power plants.
Posted by (282 comments )
Link Flag
Hydrogen is not an energy source
Hydrogen is not an energy source. It is only a fuel. H2 is not
readily available for capturing and using as a fuel. It has to be
manufactured, either from oil, coal, or by using a lot of energy
to split water.

The Bush administration's shift to hydrogen research, and away
from wind, solar, wave, and other fairly benign sources is
misguided. Hydrogen does not have the energy density of
petroleum based fuels, it will never work as an airline fuel, and
is questionable for cars.

A plug-in hybrid can make economic sense because much of the
electricity that is generated at night is wasted. But that does not
make the Prius bad. It is a lot better than what most of us drive.

Nuclear will not be acceptable until either 1) the waste problem
is resolved in a way that is acceptable to a large majority of the
public, or 2) we run out of oil and coal.

Conservation is a useful tool for making our current reserves last
longer. But Americans seem unwilling to make a personal
sacrifice for the good of the nation (or world). Can you imagine
the shrieks from the angry Talk Radio Big-mouths if a 55 mph
speed limit was suggested now, as it was by that radical Nixon
in 1973?

We reap what we sow. Or more accurately our children will.
Posted by ReasonableGuy (96 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Everyone has an agenda
"The electric utilities really want to sell electricity and they want to sell it to the transportation sector because that expands their market. They have an agenda."
Isn't this the reason the oil companies don't want you to plug your car in, they want to keep their strangle-hold on the transportation industry. I find it a little suspicious that toyota is so opposed to this, makes you wonder who they're "in bed" with.
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
 

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