ie8 fix

By Ina Fried
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
April 26, 2006 4:00 AM PST

MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif.--After an hour-long discussion at a status meeting last month, the Hotmail redesign really boiled down to one key decision: one big ad, or two?

After months of reworking the venerable Web mail program, Microsoft's team had made all the easy fixes: They'd added more colors and even offered a way to make the new Windows Live Mail look just like the old Hotmail.

But sitting around a table in the nondescript Pyre conference room in Microsoft's Silicon Valley offices, the half-dozen developers and managers couldn't avoid the thorny issue that remained. A significant number of people believed that the new design had too much space devoted to ads, making it hard to use some of the mail program's new features.

Hotmail evolves

December 1997
Microsoft acquires Hotmail and its 8 million users.

December 1998
Hotmail tops 30 million users.

December 1999
Hotmail hits 52 million users.

April 2004
Google announces Gmail.

July 2005
Microsoft demos improved Hotmail (code-named Kahuna) at a financial analysts conference. Starts public testing.

September 2005
Yahoo launches a limited U.S. beta of its improved Yahoo Mail service with features like drag-and-drop organization and a built-in RSS reader.

November 2005
Microsoft announces Windows Live, including plans to rename Hotmail as Windows Live Mail.

The ad placement decision may seem minor. But it's a key one for Microsoft, which is trying to turn Hotmail's hundreds of millions of casual e-mail users into customers for a wide variety of Windows Live personal services.

Offer too many ads and the company risks alienating users and sending them flocking to rival online services. But if it forsakes the second ad, it risks choking the revenue the business needs to compete with the likes of Yahoo and Google.

"Removing one of those ad products is a very costly thing," product planner Richard Sim told his colleagues during a meeting about the ad issue, among others. But in the end, everyone knew what had to be done. Painful as it was, they had to side with their users and hope the dollars would be there.

It's a big bet for Microsoft, which has spent the past two years overhauling Hotmail into what is now dubbed Windows Live Mail. After years of leaving the e-mail service largely on autopilot, Microsoft was jolted into action on April Fools' Day 2004, when Google launched Gmail, a Web-based e-mail service with a gigabyte of free storage. Since then, Microsoft has been racing to catch up.

Sara Radicati, who heads the analyst firm Radicati Group, said an overhaul is definitely needed.

"The Hotmail service has kind of lagged behind some of the others," Radicati said. By being early to the market with a free service, Hotmail for years found it easy to sign up more and more users. "Probably, they became a little bit complacent."

Even those inside the company generally agree that the launch of Gmail was a giant wake-up call.

"When Gmail came, it basically raised the bar on expectations and also capabilities of what is a modern Web browser application," said Richard Craddock, the development manager for Windows Live Mail, which is set for launch later this year.

Microsoft had been kicking around ideas on how to revamp Hotmail since at least 2002, but the ideas stayed on the drawing board until Gmail came around.

"It became very clear...this is what we should be doing,'" Craddock said. "Somewhere along the way, we realized there was probably a lot more money in this free e-mail service than we recognized before."

Off the back burner
Microsoft was early to spot the potential of free e-mail. Back in late 1997, it opted to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to buy Hotmail. But after that, the service remained essentially the same for a decade. Microsoft invested in more servers and additional data centers as the service grew, but Hotmail itself only saw modest, incremental changes.

Web mail chart

Although the unit's product changed little, the company did manage to retain some key talent over the years.

Among these people was Reeves Little, who enjoyed the MacGyver-like charge that came from seeing what could be added to the nearly decade-old code. But prior designs required the software equivalent of bubble gum to stick on new features, Little said.

But when it came time for the redesign, code-named Kahuna, Microsoft knew it needed some new in-house blood to augment the Hotmail veterans. (Fewer than a dozen people remain from the original Hotmail team.)

One of the recruits was Mike Schackwitz, who had been working at Microsoft's Redmond, Wash., campus on Internet projects destined to become part of Windows Live. The group program manager said the job, based in Silicon Valley, had twin allures.

One was that Hotmail was the company's single-biggest Web asset. The other was the weather. "Frankly, it rains a lot in Seattle," he said.

A week after he accepted the job, Google launched Gmail. "There was a moment of, 'Oh, yes, this does really matter," Schackwitz said.

While Schackwitz may have been motivated by the California sun, others noticed his move and decided something interesting might be going on at Hotmail. Omar Shahine moved there from the Mac business unit and brought a half-dozen good people with him. Suddenly, stodgy old Hotmail was, well, hot.

By last July, the company had a revamped version ready for the outside world to get its first look. Gone were the check boxes beside each message. In their place, Windows Live Mail offered a layout not unlike that of Outlook, Microsoft's desktop e-mail that lets people preview messages before they are opened and move items by dragging and dropping them into folders.

Next page: Some like it Hotmail

Microsoft's MacGyver

For years, Reeves Little has been finding ways to shoehorn new features into Hotmail.

"Before this change in thought, it was much more of a MacGyver kind of thing," said Little, who is glad the decade-old code is getting the makeover it deserves.

Little, a fan of Sudoku and other math and word puzzles, has viewed improving Hotmail as just another mindbender. In 2003, the Hotmail team was trying to add the ability to "sort mail by icon," a feature that had become popular in Outlook, Microsoft's desktop e-mail tool. There were different icons for messages that were unopened, had been read, had attachments or represented calendar items.

While Outlook used a whole bunch of rules to process an in-box full of mail, Web-based Hotmail couldn't afford to do that on its servers, given that it had to process hundreds of millions of accounts with billions of messages.

"Initially, people said (we) just shouldn't do it," recalled Little, the lead program manager for Hotmail. But to him, it was just a fun challenge, another puzzle.

He came up with the idea of having the file name of the icon be the code for its sort order. Then sorting by icon was really just stacking messages in a numerical order, something Hotmail's servers could do. And, oh yeah, the file names would be too long on their own, so they should be converted to hexadecimal code.

Little had never even planned on going into computers. His college degree was in psychology, but somehow he ended up at Microsoft after school. "I'll do this until I grow up," he said.

--Ina Fried


Images

Hotmail repairman
Microsoft's Mike Schackwitz works under the hood on the veteran Web mail service.

Changing face of Web mail
Take a look back at the evolution of the user interface.

Preview: MSN Kahuna Beta
CNET reviewers take a look at Hotmail's drastic makeover.

Preview: Yahoo Mail Beta
CNET reviewers take a look at Yahoo Mail's new AJAX-driven service.

Related stories
News around the Web
Credits
Author: Ina Fried
Editors: Karen Said, Kari Dean McCarthy
Copy editor: Leslie Katz
Designer: Michelle White
Producer: Kendra Dodds

75 comments

Join the conversation!
Add your comment
HOtmail (beta) is great
I am using the hotmail beta, it is really good,in terms of design, it is better then gmail and yahoo.

One feature which I liked the most is my spam mails have been reduced by a good percentage, now I very rarely get Spam mails.
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
And you think...
maybe they invented spam-control-counter-measures, doncha?
Posted by scoobbs (13 comments )
Link Flag
Classic interface forced on non IE users
"A significant number of testers liked the old version better."
What they didn't say is that to use the new drag and drop features you have to be using IE or your forced to use the classic interface. I don't see any technical reason behind this Yahoo's new beta works in most all major browsers.
Posted by bdeonline (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
Its coming
It says in the article that cross browser functionality will be in the final release.
Posted by KsprayDad (375 comments )
Link Flag
FireFox supports the updated UI available to IE
I have seen Windows Live Mail's UI work just great in FireFox. Yahoo's beta works, but is dead slow.
Posted by vikram.s (10 comments )
Link Flag
Doesn't Work On Pocket PC 2003
Yahoo's new web mail client does not work on Pocket PC 2003 (IE 4.0). I must use the classic version. And even that does not fully work. For all the talk about mobile computing, the vendors seem to have abandoned this latform. There isn't even a Yahoo Internet Messenger for Pocket PC.
Posted by maxwis (141 comments )
Link Flag
Switching?
I was a longtime HoTMaiL (see I know what it means ;) ) user saddled with a pretty useless email address...(absoulutely not hotmail's fault...just a victim of its popularity I know)

When GMAIL came out it gave me the opportunity to get the exact email address I wanted (and 1 for each of my kids for future use).

From this article it sounds like I should be able to get a new .live one at some point but since I've grown up on web based email the Outlook 'look' does nothing for me.

Therefore...do I leave .gmail for .live for what the article says is basically MS just catching up. Probably not.

It also sounds from the article that MS is going to embed ads (for 3rd parties) into OUTGOING emails...that is something I really would not want to see and I would probably leave .gmail if they started to do that too.

So, in summary, it looks like Hotmail is doing a good job to 'catch up' and that should help MS stay relevant moving forward. I do think, however, that those it lost are probably gone for good.

My 2cents.
Posted by KsprayDad (375 comments )
Reply Link Flag
About time to change
10 years is a good time to change. The original Hotmail was on
BSD, then they changed the outside to windows servers to look like
it was windows running the service. I hear they are using LAMP
architecture for Windows Live.
Posted by groyal (45 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Still no Firefox support!!!
Instead of worrying about ads, how about making hotmail render properly in Firefox?

Typical crappy effort by MSN
Posted by Lite Rocker (42 comments )
Reply Link Flag
But...
A: I'm a Firefox user
B: I'm a Gmail user

If this, in your opinion, is a 'typically crappy effort by MSN (??)' why are you using hotmail?

This is a BETA and I would expect MS to 'perfect' their product to work within THEIR products before making it work within a 3rd party product that has 10-15% of market share.

Again...I'm not using it but I think we have to a: cut them some slack so they get it right on their browser first and b: continue to encourage innovation by all players (Yahoo/Google/Aol/MS) in the web services area. It makes it better for us that want to pick and choose.
Posted by KsprayDad (375 comments )
Link Flag
Windows Live Mail rocks in FireFox
Give it a shot.
Posted by vikram.s (10 comments )
Link Flag
Works for me...?
I am currently using Firefox ver. 1.0.7 & hotmail renders fine for me. Also as I dual boot Ubuntu-Linux & Windows, I also use Firefox (not sure which version) in Windows & again I have no problem with Hotmail rendering - although I used to before I upgraded to the latest Firefox version. Maybe you just need to update? God Bless You - Beagleburt.
Posted by Beagleburt (1 comment )
Link Flag
Not needed
A well written website doesn't need to explicitly support any browser.

Oh wait, this is MS we are talking about.
Posted by Bill Dautrive (1179 comments )
Link Flag
Competition
Here's another element of proof that MS does not make any improvements (don't call this "innovation" yet) in areas where there is no competition.

Competition where MS plays is a good thing - especially from the likes of Google.
Posted by booboo1243 (328 comments )
Reply Link Flag
why no free auto-forwarding or filter forwarding?
Why do none of these stories ever talk about how neither Hotmail/Livemail or Yahoo ever offer auto-forwarding or filters that can forward mail (like Gmail)? I want to hear a straight answer from MS and Yahoo about why they don't do that. Gmail does.
Posted by czerwonka (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
You need a 1600x1200 screen
With a huge ad on the top and another on the right, even with my 1280x800 screen, the usuable area is down to a small 800x500 area, making the outlook style useless and impossible to use. My PDA device is almost better than the new hotmail. You need a 1600x1200 screen for it to look good and work well. Can't they just to stick to one smaller banner ad at the top?
Posted by cocobongo04 (9 comments )
Reply Link Flag
You need a 1600x1200 screen
With a huge ad on the top and another on the right, even with my 1280x800 screen, the usuable area is down to a small 800x500 area, making the outlook style useless and impossible to use. My PDA device is almost better than the new hotmail. You need a 1600x1200 screen for it to look good and work well. Can't they just to stick to one smaller banner ad at the top?
Posted by cocobongo04 (9 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Right side ad removal is a must
Glad to see the vertical ad is being removed. I realize they have to have them, but the placement of that one makes using the viewing pane a non-starter. That will be a huge improvement.
Posted by bjglavin (7 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Windoze Dead Mail more like it
I just about choked when I read the line that implied that the
name change is 'gifted' as if this is some kind of advantage.
They gotta be kidding!

Let me get this straight. They change from a snappy, easy to say
name that is far enough removed from Microsoft that many
people don't realize the connection there, to a name that is
harder to say and guarantees an association in peoples minds
with viruses and security flaws.

And it is tied to a browser that is the worst on the planet, then
they think people will swallow ads on their private messages. No
wonder these guys can't figure out why other companies are
doing so well.

Go Google! Microsoft just gave me a reason to get myself a g-
mail account.
Posted by artistjoh (997 comments )
Reply Link Flag
The Great Microsoft Blunder
Co-incidentally there is another news item with the above title in
PC Mag by John Dvorak about IE (which is so intimately tied to
the new Hotmail) here that is interesting reading in light of the
Hotmail / IE connection.

Article is here:
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1952997,00.asp" target="_newWindow">http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1952997,00.asp</a>

I get the feeling that the new Hotmail may be cobbled together
by the same means described by Dvorak.
Posted by artistjoh (997 comments )
Link Flag
GUI? So what. More SPAM filters!
Honestly...who cares about the Hotmail interface? I use MS Outlook Express or VZW with MSN on my cell phone to view my Hotmail emails. What I REALLY want is a serious SPAM blocker and the ability to block more than a limited number (what is it, 35? 50?) of domain names and/or email addresses. Yahoo! Mail does a MUCH better job of this. As a paying Hotmail Plus customer, I am tempted to move to Yahoo! permanently if MS doesn't get its SPAM act together soon.
Posted by schneile (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
Right On!
I am so sick of having 95% of my Yaaoo email be spam. I have the spam blocker turned on and wrote my own filters, but I still get pelted by these time wasters. All Yahoo needs to do is allow me to block email from country level domains such as China and Korea. Why is this so hard!!! The first email service that let me do this would have me as a new, paying customer.
Posted by maxwis (141 comments )
Link Flag
Too little too late.
Its FireFox for me all over again. I've been using G-Mail for so long now the only thing my hotmail account does is catch spam when I sign up for something on the net. At this point I simply don't care.
Posted by Jonathan (832 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Cluttered and lacks features
Actually the original hotmail setup not only has more features, but is less cluttered and has a clean, easy to use interface.

When I say features I mean simple things like being able to empty a trash can without tagging every message with a mouse click and then hitting the delete.

This is especially annoying if you receive large amounts of junk mail.

The layout looks like it was "designed" by someone who was given web page layout software for the first time and felt it necessary to put everything on screen at once. It reminds me of when DTP software first started to become popular, and companies would start attempting to design their own literature instead of leaving it to the professionals - which is exactly what Microsoft should do here.

Let someone who knows what they're doing design their websites and mail portals, because they clearly don't have a clue.

Windows Live is probably one of the worst websites I've ever seen in my life.
Posted by ajbright (447 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Two Years Later, Gmail STILL In Beta
What is it with Gmail? Two years later and it is still in beta. You can't sign up for it unles you are "invited" by an existing member. This is just silly. Google, either sh*t or get off the pot with Gmail.
Posted by maxwis (141 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Do you know why?
Gmail might still be in beta but do you realize why it's in beta? Google's trying to make it the best of the best web mails out their and they don't want to release it until it is the best of the best and it appeals to everyone.

Not just You, me, but everyone. That's whats keeping it in Beta right now.

It's not the best of the best yet. It's still got a long ways to go and still got alot more features to add in to appeal to every user to make every user happy.

(By the way you do know you can still sign up with a cellphone right?)

Another big reason why they won't allow people to sign up without an invite or a cellphone is to keep people who just want to have multiple gmail accounts to use to spam people with. You get what I mean?
Posted by Fritz the cat (14 comments )
Link Flag
It hasn't been invite only for....
It hasn't been invite only for nearly a year now.
Posted by anarchyreigns (299 comments )
Link Flag
The point being?
I moved onto gmail at the beginning of the year and haven't once looked back. The 2GB mailbox allows me to use it as a repository for Vonage voicemails hence giving me random access to my voicemail (Vonage's front end is PATHETICALLY slow). That on top of regular email effectively makes gmail the ultimate message repository.
Posted by frankz00 (194 comments )
Link Flag
Beta or not it is still betta
Beta or not it is still betta.
Posted by t8 (3716 comments )
Link Flag
BETA So what?
So it says BETA next to it, who cares? It works fine.
I think the invite only system is a good method to avoid propagation of spam accounts.
It's not hard to find someone to invite you.
Posted by eworden (4 comments )
Link Flag
IE-only features = Failure
I can use Gmail or Yahoo Mail in Firefox or Opera or Safari with full features.

Windows Live Mail, on the other hand, requires IE and IE only, or else you get "classic" Hotmail.

No contest: as has been happening more and more often, Microsoft is left behind due to its stubborn insistence on rejecting Web standards.
Posted by M C (598 comments )
Reply Link Flag
No Spell Check!
The live beta has no spell-check! Worthless!
Posted by smvans7 (5 comments )
Reply Link Flag
huh what???
Spell check is probably the best feature. It checks for spelling as you type and puts a curly underline (just like in word) if the spelling is wrong and right clicking on the misspelled word would give you suggestions with the right spelling!!!
Posted by FutureGuy (742 comments )
Link Flag
There is a spell check
There is a spell check it's automaticly checked
Posted by dansmyth (1 comment )
Link Flag
It's no Gmail
I like the old Hotmail as it was faster, cleaner, and easier to use I could report spam without having to open the email.
Posted by whirabomber (6 comments )
Reply Link Flag
EARLY HOTMAIL PERSPECTIVE
I have been using Hotmail since before MS took over. Keeping the "classic" option was a good idea both for long time users like myself but also it keeps things simple to just pop on for a moment.
On the plus side the MS changes over the years have been useful when there is time to bother with them.
On the down side some of the animated ads can slow down the browser on a brand new system and for an even slightly older one can make hotmail unusable while the ad is running.
For spam a lot gets through in part because a handful are coming from the ones who pay for those annoying ads on hotmail while many of the others are from MS lifting the original user name restrictions. So now when joeshmoe10000000 signs up for something and joeshmoe1 gets their junk instead because 10000000 missed a few numbers on registering for whatever. (note the pre-MShotmail would not allow the numbers so that there could be only one joeshmoe)
Posted by menchari (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
I tried the Windows Live Beta.....
I tried it for a couple of weeks, and switched back to the old Hotmail style. The useable screen area was absurdly small. Way too cluttered with ads and other useless stuff. Yes I left feedback saying this when I opted out!

Perhaps I should try it again, if MS has removed the long ad down the right side of the screen.
Posted by naddy69 (8 comments )
Reply Link Flag
I only use Hotmail...
For newsletters. And given they killed POP connectivity for newer accounts I am not moving unless they can promise I keep that connection. I'll get a second gmail account for newsletters before I drop to a site that dosen't offer connectivity to Outlook or Thunder bird.

I don't even logon to the hotmail server anymore, just use my OE to read my newsletters because the online servers make it such a pain.
Posted by jsmith12 (24 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Hear the Roar
MS used to be the T-Rex of the computing world. Over the past
several years, they've become the T-Rex stuck in the tar pit.
Posted by Gromit801 (393 comments )
Reply Link Flag
people still use hotmail?
for those of you that missed it...
TRY GMAIL.
you'll wonder how you could have ever been so foolish.

you get over 2gb of space AND with gspace (firefox extension),
you can use your gmail account as a file server.

oh... and google is actually trying to protect your privacy
whereas most every other company handed over anything dubya
asked for.

how could you be so foolish?
Posted by saturnine01 (7 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Well...
Some people would find it too much of a hassle moving over all the newsletters they subscribe to.

Besides which, I have a gmail account which I use for other things.

Besides which, with the setup I have I hardly get any spam, And given I use that account for newsletters, no matter WHICH company email I used, I'd get some spam. So I can't compair them equally.
Posted by jsmith12 (24 comments )
Link Flag
Hotmail w/o ads - use Outlook Express/ Thunderbird
I have been using OE with hotmail for the last 6 years. Great stuff- no ads etc... Add a spam filter on top of it. No spams either.

I must say the mail.live interface looks good - very similar to outlook
Posted by shikarishambu (89 comments )
Reply Link Flag
The catch being...
You have to be an old school user to be ELIGABLE to use the pop mail.

MS cut that likely for the very add free reason that you like. Unless they changed that, resently.
Posted by jsmith12 (24 comments )
Link Flag
MSN and others still miss the boat
I believe that most people now use Outlook, Thunderbird, or Outlook Express. None of the webmail offerers offer a GOOD tool that synchronizes the webmail with the client. Yahoo tried but their Intellisynch does not work reliably and they offer no support. MSN offers an upgrade version that supposedly does synchronize, but it does not work and their technical support is horrible; they always bump you to another person to whom to write and try to sell you another service. I truly do not believe that ads are the source of the problem, but rather a well thought out complete, reliable solution that offers sound technical support for both laypeople and IT people.
Posted by alkolkin (11 comments )
Reply Link Flag
 

Join the conversation

Add your comment

The posting of advertisements, profanity, or personal attacks is prohibited. Click here to review our Terms of Use.

CONTINUED:
Page 1 | 2