HD DVD debut ups ante in high-stakes game

(continued from previous page)

While Toshiba's is the only HD DVD player expected to go on sale this summer, Blu-ray has Sony's BDP-S1, which will retail for about $1,000 when it reaches store shelves in July. That's the same month that Pioneer's high-end model, the BDP-HD1 player, is scheduled to retail for $1,800.

Video: Toshiba HD-1A
A First Look at the player as it goes on sale in the U.S.

Panasonic has said the DMP-BD10 will cost less than $1,500 when it rolls out in September.

In June, Fujitsu plans to ship desktop PCs featuring Blu-ray disc drives, priced at about $5,000 in Japan. The company also said it intends to manufacture HD DVD-ready PCs, joining electronics giants LG Electronics and Hewlett-Packard in deciding to support both formats.

Sony is due to release a Blu-ray equipped desktop, the Vaio RC, and charge about $2,300.

Sometimes this spring, Toshiba is scheduled to release the first HD DVD notebook: the Qosmio G30. Acer has said that the Aspire 9800 notebook also will feature an HD DVD drive. Prices were not available.

Disc prices that sting
Buying discs can also set movie buffs back. The suggested retail price for Warner Bros. films on HD DVD and Blu-ray is $34.99 for newer titles and $28.99 for catalog films. Blu-ray titles are scheduled to launch in June.

Blank discs from Blu-ray that can be used to record will retail for between $17.99 and $59.99.

A civil war in the home-video market is unlikely to spur consumers to go on a shopping spree. Many are expected to stick with DVDs for a while.

In-Stat predicts that DVD players and recorders will combine for 176.6 million units sold worldwide in 2010. That's a 25 percent increase from the 140.8 million units sold in 2005.

Not surprisingly, both Blu-ray and HD DVD proponents claim their technologies are far superior to DVD. While many analysts agree that the quality of high-definition video is superior, it's not as dramatic as the difference between DVDs and VHS. IDC's Martin recalled that the public was awed by DVD players, which let them jump around to any part of a disk they wanted, instead of fast-forwarding or rewinding on VHS.

"There are certain advantages with the new formats, including additional interactive features," said IDC's Martin. "They've got games and higher-quality recordings, but it's not DVD to VHS."

That opinion was echoed by Laura Behrens, an analyst with research firm Gartner. "The picture quality isn't necessarily as breathtaking this time around as last time," she said.

[emehrkay]

This article has a few mistakes

"Toshiba is scheduled to release the first HD DVD notebook: the Vaio G30"

And the whole seven studios thing...

Anyway, I dont understand how consumers are expected to pay two to three times the amount for bluray players when they havent proven that the tech is that much better. And what about manufacturers? I once read that pressing hd dvds were a simple upgrade in tech in the factories - blu ray really doesnt make that much sense (if we had to have "next gen" media).

[Jon Skillings]

Vaio reference fixed

You're right - the reference to the Toshiba product should say Qosmio, not Vaio.

[drfrost]

I agree

As a consumer I'm not going to pay more than $250 for a new player. I think a lot of people would agree with me, to be honest. If blu-ray can drop to $250 around the same time that HD DVD does, it might have a chance. If it's still at $500 when HD DVD players hit $250, they're going to lose the consumer market. And the studios are going to follow the money.

I'll be buying a PS3 at or near launch, but I don't think think PS3 can save blu-ray in terms of the movie market. It may well guarantee it a place in the computer market (data backups, etc.) but I agree with the previous comment that people aren't going to pay 2X the price for the player so they can have more content. Most of the movies I buy, I watch the deleted scenes and that's it. All the other content is superfluous.

If Sony wants to win this war, they're going to have to drop the price of the players to be reasonably close to the HD DVD players reasonably quickly. (The consumer get's to define "reasonably.")

My 2 cents...

My

[skeptik]

Do I even need to comment?

Clearly it's 'screw the consumer' time. Just say no. Force the industry to work out their squabbles internally rather than using your wallet to settle their disputes. Unless of course you've got money to burn and it doesn't matter.

The quotes that say it all:

Consumers could lose big by betting on the wrong technology.

That means buyers of one disc player may be prevented from watching a movie from a studio that doesn't support the format.

While Toshiba's players range from $500 to $800, the least expensive Blu-ray machine is $999.
?films on HD DVD and Blu-ray is $34.99 for newer titles and $28.99 for catalog films.

"There are certain advantages with the new formats, including additional interactive features," said IDC's Martin. "They've got games and higher-quality recordings, but it's not DVD to VHS."

[CaptDave86]

No reason for high prices

Right,
The only reason that I find that the Bue-Ray is more costly is the fact that it can hold 25GB instead of 15GB, but still, why is it 2 to 3 times the price, for only 10GB more. That is not economical and just, well not right. The only other reason i can see paying more for the Bue-ray is the fact that they have 7 studios on their side, meaning, many more movies to come out for the bue-ray. But it is all up to the consumers to decide what they want. Also, wasnt it Sony that lost the last Major formats war with the Betamax?... I think I see a trend here

[umbrae]

BluRay is expensive to manufacture

HD-DVD uses the same technology that is used to make DVD's, so there is not much reason for a price increase.

However, Blu-Ray is an brand new, expensive and painful manufacuring process that many manufacturing partners have publically complained about. The can produce 3x the amount of HD-DVD at the same cost and time. It has been predicted that Blu-Ray prices will never go down because there is little that can be improved in the creation process or components.

[fakespam]

Blah.

For the umpteenth time in a century (say since 1950, anyways),
we will be forced to embrace another format so that Hollywood
can get rich from selling the same movies again.

I still have stacks of tapes, and have not rebought those on DVD.
I have stacks of LaserDiscs, and have not rebought those on
DVD.

Most of my family and friends can't tell from Mac to Windows,
PS2 to GameCube, Standard from HDTV, stereo from mono.

Some still don't have DVD.

Honestly, I hope both formats fail, then combine in a 2.0 format
like recordable DVDs did, then make a player play everything
from audio CDs pressed in 1984 in Japan to VCDs to DVDs with
or without RCE presents to playing all recordable DVD formats to
DVD-RAM (without casing) to BR and HD DVD formats. That's
the what to go. I don't want ten different players to watch
movies, I want maybe one or two.

[speleofool]

PCs anyone?

A PC is versatile enough to accommodate a huge variety of formats, thanks to software. However, usability and actual A/V quality suck compared to dedicated home theater components. It would be great to see a PC with high quality A/V electronics integrated that isn't neutered with DRM limitations (i.e., I should be able to make a full-quality copy of a movie from DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-Ray to my entertainment PC).

Cheers!
Speleo.

[P_S_J]

PS3 will decide this war

The winner is going to end up being the Blu Ray format. Sony is already using it in the upcoming PS3 consoles, which should help drive down the costs of producing the players. At this point, I don't think there is any reason to buy into any new format for movies. Exectly what features are they going to give you that justifies that kind of price increase? Watching the movie at different angles? Big deal. More production footage, bloopers? Big deal. Hopefully, they will squeeze in larger movie previews!!

[mrpeabody3119]

Playstaition....

The PS3 will have an effect but only 5% of the market will be persuaded by that... PS3 is going to be expensive so most of the little kids that back it wont even be able to buy one. But for the other 95% of the movie market most will want the one that is less expensive, the movie makers will bring the movies to which ever HD player win's. They could care less which one wins they just want your money.

[markdoiron]

I'm Not So Sure About That

Game consoles typically provide a horrible user experience for movie watching. With Sony having to fight to keep the price of the PS3 competitive with other gaming consoles, I doubt many dollars were devoted to making the PS3 a good movie viewing experience. Therefore, I think most folks who do opt for a PS3, will also decide they need a separate high def video player (if they decide they need one at all!).

mark d.

[umbrae]

No reason to buy either...

You gain nothing by choosing either format. Both formats are ONLY to change the DRM of DVDs. In fact, movie studio plan on yanking DVD's off the market completely by 2008 at the latest. I say don't buy either so they fail.

They only thing you might gain is special editions on 1 disc rather than 2-3. However, the picture will not look any better and you will not be able to back them up for probably a good while.

Sony is only using this format to sell (or justify the price of) PS3's and their new 1080p TVs, and - of course - stop any fair use of their content.

[mrpeabody3119]

Did you just make that up?

"In fact, movie studio plan on yanking DVD's off the market completely by 2008 at the latest"

First off where did you hear this? besides some idiot on a forum making it up. Don't spread rumors.

"However, the picture will not look any better and you will not be able to back them up for probably a good while."

Actually you can definitely notice the difference in the picture. as for "backing up" AKA downloading them for free, lol. Your right it will be a few months before they can figure that out..

[drfrost]

It does look better...

While you make some good points, the video quality is definitely better. Unfortunately, you need an expensive player and an expensive TV to see it, but I've seen them and there is definitely a discernable quality difference. Is it enough to justify the costs? That depends very much on how picky you are.

The DRM does worry me, though. And Sony has proved many times (the rootkits come to mind) that what they consider "fair use" and what the general consumer considers "fair use" is very different. And the lengths at which they will go to protect their content definitely exceeds what the consumer finds acceptable.

The whole part of the standard that requires a monitor with a special interface just infuriates me. The hackers are going to break the code and pirate the movie. It's going to happen. In fact, according to some hackers it already has. In all honesty, I think this is more about forcing hardware upgrades than stopping piracy.

[grey_eminence]

Spintronics and Atomic Holographic Storage

I think Blu-Ray and HD-DVD just bandaids.

http://www.colossalstorage.net

[baisa]

When pies fly, you have...

...what???

An idea is not a product.

A patent is not a product.

An alleged scientific discovery is not a product.

The tech industry highways are littered from one end to the other with Next Big Thing roadkill.

God, it gets tiresome!!!

[c.Lake]

Boycott Blu-Ray! Hologram Disk are coming!

Thank you, "grey_eminence", thank you. I have been SHOUTING about Hologram Disks on every techie blog site for the last 6 months. People DO NOT want to hear about it. They just want to argue about Blu-Ray, just to win the conversation... but NOT the war. Believe me, this isn't a war that you want to lose!

Think about this situation logically? This is just a half-baked Sony invention, backed by Hollywood who is DESPERATELY trying to hold on to an out-dated business plan, and hold back technology. The worse part of this is, they are trying to use the American public (and our money) as "guinea-pigs" for their little revenge plot against the video and music, pirates and hackers. That's their problem, not ours. We shouldn't have to get sucker into another format war, just because MPAA wants to act like children.

Hologram Disks Technology is going to be the next BIG thing. Blu-Ray in comparison, is just DVD 1.5 or worst yet -- beta-max. (My family had a front row seat for that show) Just remember Sony's track record of proprietary formats has NOT been a good one.

1 Blu-Ray disk is 50 Gigabytes = Which is Cool!
1 Holographic disks is 10 Terabytes = Which is REALLY F__king Cool!

Please, do you want the big "Season 1: Box Set"? Or do you want the "Every Season Set" of the whole damn show, plus 8 episodes of the crappy spin-off show. All 10 Season of the next show that actor starred in after he became famous. The 2 movies he starred in while taking a break from television. The 2 mini-series he starred in on lifetime-tv as the sensitive, husband cheating, baby stealing, serial killer. Along with the soundtracks, the music videos and flashbacks of him as "The Cute Guy" on soap opera X. All this on a disk the size of a credit card, you do the math?

[kamwmail-cnet1]

Sony's making the Same Old Mistake $$$$

It's the PRICE stupid.
Sony didn't get it back in betamax versus VHS.
And they still don't get it now.
Consumers will buy the cheapest out there. Than the studios have to go cater to them or lose sales.

Besides, I wouldn't trust Sony equipment with their rootkits anyway.

[umbrae]

I hope you are right...

Very very much... I see Sony losing again like they did with BetaMax and UMD, but they toss out a ton of advertising and the brand for Blu-Ray is kinda cool. I just hope everyone remembers Sony screwing them and stays away again.

However, I would much rather just stick with DVDs since the new technology offers so little.

[markdoiron]

Maybe A Different Mistake

"It's the PRICE stupid."

Actually, maybe it's not the price at all. Which has the better price, SACD or DVD-Audio? Answer: Who cares! Neither offers a compelling reason to upgrade when compared to CDs!

There is more and more anecdotal evidence that below 42" TV size, high def video shows little discernible improvement over standard definition DVD ***at typical home viewing distances***. A 42" widescreen TV is quite large--suitable as the main TV for the vast majority of homes. Between that, and the high cost for even larger models, either high def video format may have a limited market. Personally, I'm waiting this one out.

mark d.

[grangerfx]

So is it blurry?

The story left out the answer to one of the most important questions about HD DVD players: If you play movies on analog HD DVD monitors, does the video look fuzzy? Now that CNET has a real HD DVD player with released HD DVD movies, this question can finaly be answered by simply hooking up the unit and hitting the play button.

Background: HD DVD and Blue Ray movies have the option of requiring a HDCP compatible DVI or HDMI digital connection to a monitor in order to play at full resolution. This information is supposed to be clearly visible on the movie's packaging (was it?) If such a movie is played on a HD DVD monitor with analog connections, its resolution is supposed to be greatly reduced to little more than standard DVD resolution. To the consumer, the video will appear to be fuzzy. Earlier news reports stated that it had not been decided which movies would require HDCP.

[bobby_brady]

Consumer won't vote w/ their dollar just to look at pimples!

We don't need these "new" hi-def, overpriced, DRM loaded players that also take away our fair use. Why would I want a overpriced hi-def player just so I can see pimples on movie casts?

[drfrost]

Are you willing to stop buying movies altogether?

If they phase out DVD's by the end of 2008, unless the consumer market as a whole stops buying the new media and forces them to release new content in the old media, you'll have to comply or quit buying movies.

And I believe congress has passed a law requiring broadcasts to go HD by Feb, 2009? (Who are they working for anyway?) So, at the very least, you're going to have to get an HD tuner by that time.

Personally I'm disgusted by the whole mess. It's obvious that congress is working for the lobbiest in cases like this. I don't want a bunch of new DRM restrictions (and I've never pirated a movie so that's certainly not my motivation). And I certainly don't want to spend $2000+ to update my TV, DVD player, etc. BUT, unfortunately, I like watching movies.

[Earl Benser]

Both are duds in progress....

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are both dead end technology roads. We
don't need a formal war, but that's what we are getting. Everyone
should just keep their hands in the pockets and stand on the
sidelines while the two formats annihilate each other. When the
smoke clears, someone will have a much simpler solution, like
conventional DVD with MPRG-4 compression.

[umbrae]

Amen and a good article

You are on the money!

So everyone remember history here is a good article...

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/B/htmlB/betamaxcase/betamaxcase.htm

[als]

Just Saw It At Bestbuy

Bestbuy had it on display at the end of an isle, hooked up to a Westinghouse 37" Lcd 1080P flat panel. I hate to say it, but the HD from my Cox cable box looks better. Bestbuy also had the sound coming out of the mini speakers internal to the display. If I was Toshiba, I would have demanded, that if you are going to sell my stuff, you showcase it properly. That would mean displaying this player's HD content on the biggest and best display that you have in the store, Also, it would have been really nice to hear the new lossless sound tracks on something other than two, 2 inch Westinghouse speakers. Good job Bestbuy.

[speleofool]

VHS video quality is better than DVD

VHS is not compressed. I've seen this demonstrated in a lab. It's not that DVD offered vastly superior video quality, but that VHS quality can degrade over time resulting in notably WORSE quality.

In any case, had to nitpick on video quality as the primary reson for DVD's success. It was really all about:
* durability
* better audio, including surround
* random access; don't have to rewind DVD

In addition, there were plenty more compelling new features, including:
* alternate languages & subtitles available
* extra features
* DVD slim case 1/2 the size of VHS
* parental controls

Cheers!
Speleo.

[Earl Benser]

Sorry, but quality is the issue...

.... and VHS doesn't cut it any way. On a very good day, pre-
recorded VHS does 320 x 240 pixel resolution, Pre-recorded
SVHS (try to find one) maybe gets 400 x 300 pixel resolution.
And, each play reduces resolution. Each copy means a major loss
in resolution. Self recorded VHS rarely gets better than 240 x
240 resolution (pixels are no longer square)

DVD gives 720 x 480 resolution out of the box. Copying the
disk, and multiple plays. do not affect the resolution.

The rest of the point seems to make sense.

[lingsun]

That's idiotic. It's like saying 8track is better than CD

The first time I watched a DVD on my computer I couldn't believe how clear it was. I've watched VHS tapes through my computer's TV card. VHS looks like crap.

[J. Blow]

You don't know what you are talking about - you must be joking.

DVD = 480 lines of resolution. VHS = 256 lines of resolution. HDDVD/Blue Ray = 1080

VHS - read from analog = horrible quality even to a blind person.

There is no such thing as "uncompressed VHS". Uncompressed standard definition video is 270mbps and that doesn't fit on any consumer media including HD DVD or Blue Ray.

[fakespam]

drugs?

are you on drugs or what? now your advocating VHS? fine, then
lets all but laserdiscs and VCDs, since I don't have to rewind the
movie and the majority of the media doesn't degrade till after
ten years or so.

[grangerfx]

The thing is HUGE!

My local Best Buy had sold out of the A1 models but they had an XA1 which had been received earlier for demonstration purposes. Unfortunately it had stopped working a few days ago. My guess is that it needs a reset and firmware upgrade but I was not going to attempt to explain this to the Best Buy employees.

Beside the giant 80's flash back remote control the thing I noticed the most was the size of the XA1 itself. It is humongous! It is not only tall and wide, it is deep too. It is as big as your granddad's laser disk player. If anyone knows where I can see some explicit photos of the guts of one of these babys, please post it as a reply to this message.

[fakespam]

kicking and screaming

with this format, drag me kicking and screaming to it.

i like DVDs just fine thank you.

and even then, if the content is rereleases of stuff i already own
or new movies, i doubt i'll buy it. i don't really enjoy new movie
offerings. too many horror, too many white-trash slapstick, or
too many Matrix and/or Tarentino inspired action movies.

pull my hair, hollywood, kick me in the nutz, stab me in the
stomach, and maybe i'll consider.

now, as far a data storage is concerned, sign me up. I need 15
GB discs!

[rob_kellington]

"additional interactive features" = "studio control"

Has anyone noticed that current DVDs force you to watch all of the previews and disclaimers and that fast-forward doesn't work? I can only assume it will be worse with both HD formats.
The DRM is one thing, but the control that the players/studios want over how we view the content is part of the feature set coming. For me, I like clicking Play and actually seeing a movie. Even waiting for the DVD Menu is a frustration. Why must it come up when 99% of the time, everyone just wants to see the movie.

[markdoiron]

Check Out GoVideo Products

The functions of your remote are set by the DVD played, consequently by the studios. However, some players, including those by GoVideo, ignore those initial commands. That means that your remote is fully functional ATT and you can skip the ad's. Some players even have an "autoplay" feature that automatically does the skipping for you.

mark d.

[john55440]

No Standard = No Sale

Wake me when the Format War is over. :-)

[fakespam]

Message has been deleted.

[fakespam]

Hard-Core Mac User rules . . .

Hard-Core Mac Users (they who see no Windows at all) have a
rule about hardware: never buy the 1st and 2nd generations/
versions.

These aren't the people who buy Intel Macs or bought the iMacs
of the last year, these are folks who XPostFacto Tiger onto old-
ass PowerPCs.

That's they're saying. Makes sense this time around. I'll wait.

[fakespam]

Message has been deleted.

[fakespam]

LaserDisc and VCD

Both LaserDisc and VCD had different formats upon their
releases.

LD was know as DiscoVision in the '70s (go figure) and
LaserVision Video Disc. As time wore on, Pioneer and MCA
agreed to combine formats on players and just call LaserDisc,
with the LaserVision format be de facto, but the DiscoVision
format still able to play. They were hoping it would boost sales
of the LD format in USA, but ended up taking off in Japan
instead, with cult following here.

VCD also had a three formats in 1990. The latter two won out.
Philips first used the CD-i format as the VCD format, but those
didn't sell well, so they dropped it and supported regular VCDs
for a year or two in USA, while VCD took off in Asia. VCD 2.x was
created later (Super VCD) and was able to go about the hour
limit by a few more minutes. Soon, LG, Sony, Pioneer, Philips and
others were offering (by 1995) VCD players than could play both
formats.

Toshiba and Sony should take a cue from their past optical
history, not so much Beta vs. VHS.