Grassroots computing languages hit the big time

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answer to a wide set of business challenges, particularly for people on the Java side--that answer was Java," O'Grady said. "But now they're seeing the grassroots growth of these technologies."

Threat to Java?
The growing popularity of scripting has prompted some Java developers to ask whether Java risks being replaced by simpler alternatives.

Proponents argue that tools built around languages such as Python or Ruby are gaining in popularity because Java development is too complex for many jobs.

"What I think we're seeing in the rise of the scripting language is that Java is overkill for a lot of projects," Tom McQueeney, a software architect at a large consulting company, said in a blog posting.

Detractors claim that programs written with scripting languages could be more difficult to maintain than Java applications.

Meanwhile, some efforts are intentionally blurring the line between Java and scripting languages.

A language called Groovy is being designed specifically to run in the Java virtual machine on PCs and servers. An initial version was released in April.

That close tie to Java makes Groovy a complement to, rather than a replacement for, Java, according to the technical committee in charge of Groovy, which includes representatives from Sun, IBM and the Apache Software Foundation.

"Groovy can be a low-threshold language for developers new to the Java platform as well as a productivity-enhancing tool for experienced Java developers," according to the Groovy expert group in the Java Community Process.

Though developers will continue the debate over the merits of different languages, O'Grady said traditional languages will increasingly co-exist with scripting languages as the latter become more sophisticated--and accepted.

"It comes down to different tools for different jobs," said O'Grady. "These languages, like PHP, have been doing good jobs in business situations for a while and not just because they're fast. They've proved what they need to prove."

Scripting: what about REXX?

Scripting languages seem to be a new idea - however they do exist for several decades. One of the widely used languages is REXX, invented by the IBM fellow Mike Cowlishaw more than 25 years ago. REXX (and the open source variants like REGINA) were orginally used on the mainframe but do exist now on every platform you can think of. REXX is used as as scripting language AND also as a programming language. Currently there are "traditional" (i.e. 3GL) and OO versions available. You can find more about REXX on the REXXLA homepage :www.rexxla.org

[Thomas, David]

Can't Help Myself

... dude, what are you selling?! I'd put odds that you retired from
IBM, or have some strong previous affiliation.

Rexx vs. PHP ?

You want to know more about rexx?

Here is a short comparison:
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/05/26/rexx.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/05/26/rexx.html</a>

[mentalbarcode]

Open Source Talent

I still prefer PHP.

www.ostalent.com

Hobbyists?

"Traditionally, such languages have been used by hobbyists to glue
together pages for simple Web sites." What a bizarre statement --
PHP has been used to create incredibly complex web applications
for a number of years.

[Thomas, David]

2 True

While PHP is a scripting language, name one low-level, mid-level
programming (compiled) language used for doing development
on a large scale.

Apparently that would be a trick question for the author of this
story. I don't want to waste any more of my dev time, except to
say that this is nothing more than another ad-hoc job by a CNet
author who apparently isn't worth the salt they are paid.

[Thomas, David]

Correction: 2 True

WEB development language, that is mid-level ( like C, C++) used
on a large scale.

[mlamonica]

Point taken

We've changed the wording to try to characterize the state of usage better, which BTW people will have widely divergent views on.

[pcLoadLetter]

re

Scripting languages are considered a 'hobbyist' thing, even though professional and other well done web site use them, because web development is not exactly a difficult thing to learn. It requires no deep knowlege of computer systems, nor the underlining low level network protocols and interfaces, and very few basic programming concepts. Which is why they are used more in web development then full-featured languages like C, Java(although this is used quite often), and C++. If there were no scripting languages, low level languages would have to be used and the cost to design an entire site would skyrocket due to having to hire real programmers.

It may seem like an elitist attitude, but there is a huge gap between web developers and programmers. A C or C++ programmer worth his salt could write all the tools he needs, including the compiler and libraries, if he really had/wanted to. Web developers, with very few exceptions, can not.

Stop whining when articles don't mention your favorite obscure scripting language. There are too many to mention. Programmers tend to do this also, even though there are literally hundreds of languages and mentioning them all in an article is pointless and nearly impossible.

and Coldfusion?

Though it still doesn't get a whole lot of respect in the industry... CF should be considered as well.

Since the release of BlueDragon (from New Atlanta software) the expensive server license is no longer needed. It gets the job done.

[aabcdefghij987654321]

A lot of scripting languages didn't get covered

Cold Fusion is just one of them, but like the REXX fan you definitely have the right to ask ;)

[steveth22]

Yahoo is a home-grown site, did you know that?

The write of this story hasn't seen the football since the game started. Jeeeezus.

"Hobbyists"? You mean like Yahoo, who use PHP as a primary development platform? How about the thousands of large companies (like mine, which is a Fortune 50 company) using PHP as a primary develpment platform for critical enterprise development?

There are about a dozen PHP programmers on our team here and they all have 6+ years of enterprise development experience, and some have 15+. Are they the "non-programmers" you were talking about?

Oh wait, I understand the logic now. Since Oracle is getting into the PHP arena its because nobody is using it for serious development. Oracle just *loves* the low-end.

"Java is overkill"? No, Java is just 3-5x SLOWER than PHP for most web application tasks. Can anybody name a major Internet website using Java as their platform? Didn't think so. PHP on the other hand has shown it can scale to the largest web sites in the world.

I'm really losing faith in News.com here. Not only did they not research this story correctly, but it is simply self-contradictory. If all of the things they said about PHP were true, IBM and Oracle wouldn't be taking them seriously. The fact is that its a viable alternative to Java for *any* project, and Java is a political hot potato because Sun still owns it.

[pcLoadLetter]

Clueless

It doesn't matter who uses PHP, it doesn't make it more of a language. Any fool can learn PHP. That doesn't make one a programmer.

A real programmer can use PHP, just like he can use any programming language to full use. Just because professional engineers use PHP, doesn't make it a programming language. It is a hobbyist language, because anyone that is reasonably intelligent can teach themselves PHP. The same can NOT be said about learning to be a legitimate programmer. Learning syntax is maybe 5% of what it takes to be a real programmer. Learn PHP, and you will still not get the background needed to be a solid, professional programmer. PHP is a powerful scripting language, but it is extremely limited. Not as much as most scipting languages, but doesn't come close to being a real programming language.