George Jetson, meet GM's sequel

General Motors' latest hydrogen car prototype is a car unlike any other and a glimpse of a possible, very different, automotive future.
Photos: Fill 'er up with hydrogen
Photos: Car tech revs up at CES
The New York Times

The story "George Jetson, meet GM's sequel" published January 10, 2005 at 7:58 AM is no longer available on CNET News.

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[C.Schroeder]

Racing drives andvancements & interest

<quote>And it would be no small feat to persuade American car buyers to be guinea pigs in the industry's science project.</quote>

Automobile racing has historically been one of the greatest drivers in the advancement and consumer acceptance of automobile technology. NASCAR needs to switch to advanced hybrid technology and the Indy racers should switch to hydrogen, and they need to do it soon. You will get the attention and capture the imagination of more people this way.

[C.Schroeder]

Racing drives andvancements & interest

<quote>And it would be no small feat to persuade American car buyers to be guinea pigs in the industry's science project.</quote>

Automobile racing has historically been one of the greatest drivers in the advancement and consumer acceptance of automobile technology. NASCAR needs to switch to advanced hybrid technology and the Indy racers should switch to hydrogen, and they need to do it soon. You will get the attention and capture the imagination of more people this way.

Hydrogen Falicies

It must be a slow news day. Hydrogen will never make it as a effective energy transport mechanism for several reasons. 1 - Hydrogen does not like being stuck in a bottle. It doesn't just leak, it diffuses through any storage container and damages the containment at the molecular level. The result is hydrogen embrittlement and limited component lifetime. 2 - Easily contaminated. A fuel cell relies on a catalytic reaction to function. Any contaminate in the process becomes trapped in the cell and the efficiency is degraded. 3 - Low power density. The combined apparatus and storage mass significantly out-weigh competing solutions. 4 - Safety. Even empty, hydrogen systems are extremely hazardous. If damaged in accident, any hydrogen component on contact to air will heat to near incandescent temperatures, yet look safe. Any contact will produce severe burns.

The result makes the economic use of hydrogen for a transportation power plant extremely remote. If hydrogen is that good, prove it in a stationary application first. And you don't need my tax dollars to do that.

[Fray9]

Also

Also dont forget that hydrogen fuel cells do not create energy, they are simply a quickly rechargable battery.

The hydrogen for the fuel cells and to refill your car with is created through large scale electrolysis of water, which simply transfers the gasoline usage of individual cars onto our power generation grid, increasing the fuel they use and in turn, pollution generation.

Hydrogen fuel cells dont reduce pollution, they just hide it from public view because it will start to come out of a power plants exhaust stack rather than the exhaust on your car.

Also in the process, fuel efficiency will drop drastically.

Im sure youve all heard of the laws of thermodynamics. Basically it says that energy cannot be created only converted from one form to another and each conversion process produces wasted energy, reducing the overall energy.

So rather than refining oil to gasoline then to explosive force in an internal combustion engine, we are now refining oil to whatever form the power plant needs which turns it into electricity then sending it over power lines (causing loss) to the hydrogen production plant, where the electricity is converted into hydrogen, more electricity is used to compress the hydrogen and it is injected into the fuel cell where it reacts with the components to turn it back into.. guess what.. electricity again.

The internal combustion engine losses 50% of the energy in its fuel as waste heat. Power plants are no more efficient, but after all the processing that that energy has to go through to end up in a fuel cell, Id say hydrogen has a loss of more like 80-90%.

The problem is that no matter what form it finally takes, the energy starts out as crude oil, which must be refined and burned somewhere along the way.

[C.Schroeder]

Biggest challenge - efficient hydrogen production

Agreed, the hydrogen production must be via renewable means, otherwise, you are just shifting the polution source and reducing the end-to-end energy efficiency.

Hydrogen Falicies

It must be a slow news day. Hydrogen will never make it as a effective energy transport mechanism for several reasons. 1 - Hydrogen does not like being stuck in a bottle. It doesn't just leak, it diffuses through any storage container and damages the containment at the molecular level. The result is hydrogen embrittlement and limited component lifetime. 2 - Easily contaminated. A fuel cell relies on a catalytic reaction to function. Any contaminate in the process becomes trapped in the cell and the efficiency is degraded. 3 - Low power density. The combined apparatus and storage mass significantly out-weigh competing solutions. 4 - Safety. Even empty, hydrogen systems are extremely hazardous. If damaged in accident, any hydrogen component on contact to air will heat to near incandescent temperatures, yet look safe. Any contact will produce severe burns.

The result makes the economic use of hydrogen for a transportation power plant extremely remote. If hydrogen is that good, prove it in a stationary application first. And you don't need my tax dollars to do that.

[Fray9]

Also

Also dont forget that hydrogen fuel cells do not create energy, they are simply a quickly rechargable battery.

The hydrogen for the fuel cells and to refill your car with is created through large scale electrolysis of water, which simply transfers the gasoline usage of individual cars onto our power generation grid, increasing the fuel they use and in turn, pollution generation.

Hydrogen fuel cells dont reduce pollution, they just hide it from public view because it will start to come out of a power plants exhaust stack rather than the exhaust on your car.

Also in the process, fuel efficiency will drop drastically.

Im sure youve all heard of the laws of thermodynamics. Basically it says that energy cannot be created only converted from one form to another and each conversion process produces wasted energy, reducing the overall energy.

So rather than refining oil to gasoline then to explosive force in an internal combustion engine, we are now refining oil to whatever form the power plant needs which turns it into electricity then sending it over power lines (causing loss) to the hydrogen production plant, where the electricity is converted into hydrogen, more electricity is used to compress the hydrogen and it is injected into the fuel cell where it reacts with the components to turn it back into.. guess what.. electricity again.

The internal combustion engine losses 50% of the energy in its fuel as waste heat. Power plants are no more efficient, but after all the processing that that energy has to go through to end up in a fuel cell, Id say hydrogen has a loss of more like 80-90%.

The problem is that no matter what form it finally takes, the energy starts out as crude oil, which must be refined and burned somewhere along the way.

[C.Schroeder]

Biggest challenge - efficient hydrogen production

Agreed, the hydrogen production must be via renewable means, otherwise, you are just shifting the polution source and reducing the end-to-end energy efficiency.

Can we accept that GM is Serious?

The sequel is an interesting concept car, but the main
take on this car is its hydrogen fuel. Hydrogen is an
intriquing and iffy prospect from an environmental
standpoint. There may be eco-friendly ways to get it, but
if GM is serious about this concept I'd expect some detail
on how they will get there.
The car design itself is a good innovation and really
sould be the focus of the research. GM talks about hub
motors, but only puts them on the rear wheels (the front
wheels share a motor, strange). The concept is
adaptable to any power train system (gas, diesel, etc.)
Cutting out the transmission, axle, drive shaft etc cuts
weight (enviromentally good). The engine can be
smaller to offset the battery weight as the battery
supplies the acceleration and the engine is mostly
running at a constant (efficeint) speed. The hub motors
generate power in braking reducing the size of the
brakes (and lowering dust emissions). All those
electronics can reduce skidding, roll overs etc. and with
a broadband link can allow cars to 'train' down the
highway reducing congestion by minimizing follwoing
distance to inches and smoothing out traffic flow. In
theory Detoiters can now drive to Florida in trains and let
the train do the driving for hours at a time. UPS can
load package cars in small groups and have a single
driver get them to the delivery area. Buses can do local
pickups and then be grouped for the rush hour
downtown saving drivers and giving more people a one
seat ride. Tracktor-trailers probably won't work due to the
lack of control for all wheels, but the model of freight
delivery could change with smaller package car like units
froming a train.
GM has a great idea, but the focus is in the wrong place,
so are they serious? I'm not optomistic.

Can we accept that GM is Serious?

The sequel is an interesting concept car, but the main
take on this car is its hydrogen fuel. Hydrogen is an
intriquing and iffy prospect from an environmental
standpoint. There may be eco-friendly ways to get it, but
if GM is serious about this concept I'd expect some detail
on how they will get there.
The car design itself is a good innovation and really
sould be the focus of the research. GM talks about hub
motors, but only puts them on the rear wheels (the front
wheels share a motor, strange). The concept is
adaptable to any power train system (gas, diesel, etc.)
Cutting out the transmission, axle, drive shaft etc cuts
weight (enviromentally good). The engine can be
smaller to offset the battery weight as the battery
supplies the acceleration and the engine is mostly
running at a constant (efficeint) speed. The hub motors
generate power in braking reducing the size of the
brakes (and lowering dust emissions). All those
electronics can reduce skidding, roll overs etc. and with
a broadband link can allow cars to 'train' down the
highway reducing congestion by minimizing follwoing
distance to inches and smoothing out traffic flow. In
theory Detoiters can now drive to Florida in trains and let
the train do the driving for hours at a time. UPS can
load package cars in small groups and have a single
driver get them to the delivery area. Buses can do local
pickups and then be grouped for the rush hour
downtown saving drivers and giving more people a one
seat ride. Tracktor-trailers probably won't work due to the
lack of control for all wheels, but the model of freight
delivery could change with smaller package car like units
froming a train.
GM has a great idea, but the focus is in the wrong place,
so are they serious? I'm not optomistic.