January 30, 2007 4:00 AM PST

FBI turns to broad new wiretap method

(continued from previous page)

One reason why the full-pipe technique raises novel legal questions is that under federal law, the FBI must perform what's called "minimization."

Federal law says that agents must "minimize the interception of communications not otherwise subject to interception" and keep the supervising judge informed of what's happening. Minimization is designed to provide at least a modicum of privacy by limiting police eavesdropping on innocuous conversations.

"The question that's interesting...is whether this is illegal, whether it's constitutional. Is Congress even aware they're doing this?"
--Paul Ohm, law professor
University of Colorado at Boulder

Prosecutors routinely hold presurveillance "minimization meetings" with investigators to discuss ground rules. Common investigatory rules permit agents to listen in on a phone call for two minutes at a time, with at least one minute elapsing between the spot-monitoring sessions.

That section of federal law mentions only real-time interception--and does not explicitly authorize the creation of a database with information on thousands of innocent targets.

But a nearby sentence adds: "In the event the intercepted communication is in a code or foreign language, and an expert in that foreign language or code is not reasonably available during the interception period, minimization may be accomplished as soon as practicable after such interception."

Downing, the assistant deputy chief at the Justice Department's computer crime section, pointed to that language on Friday. Because digital communications amount to a foreign language or code, he said, federal agents are legally permitted to record everything and sort through it later. (Downing stressed that he was not speaking on behalf of the Justice Department.)

"Take a look at the legislative history from the mid '90s," Downing said. "It's pretty clear from that that Congress very much intended it to apply to electronic types of wiretapping."

EFF's Bankston disagrees. He said that the FBI is "collecting and apparently storing indefinitely the communications of thousands--if not hundreds of thousands--of innocent Americans in violation of the Wiretap Act and the 4th Amendment to the Constitution."

Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington, D.C., said a reasonable approach would be to require that federal agents only receive information that's explicitly permitted by the court order. "The obligation should be on both the (Internet provider) and the government to make sure that only the information responsive to the warrant is disclosed to the government," he said.

Courts have been wrestling with minimization requirements for over a generation. In a 1978 Supreme Court decision, Scott v. United States, the justices upheld police wiretaps of people suspected of selling illegal drugs.

But in his majority opinion, Justice William Rehnquist said that broad monitoring to nab one suspect might go too far. "If the agents are permitted to tap a public telephone because one individual is thought to be placing bets over the phone, substantial doubts as to minimization may arise if the agents listen to every call which goes out over that phone regardless of who places the call," he wrote.

Another unanswered question is whether a database of recorded Internet communications can legally be mined for information about unrelated criminal offenses such as drug use, copyright infringement or tax crimes. One 1978 case, U.S. v. Pine, said that investigators could continue to listen in on a telephone line when other illegal activities--not specified in the original wiretap order--were being discussed. Those discussions could then be used against a defendant in a criminal prosecution.

Ohm, the former Justice Department attorney who presented a paper on the Fourth Amendment, said he has doubts about the constitutionality of full-pipe recording. "The question that's interesting, although I don't know whether it's so clear, is whether this is illegal, whether it's constitutional," he said. "Is Congress even aware they're doing this? I don't know the answers."

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139 comments

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Control the masses..
mmmm... Control the internet... so that you can control the population...

Not surpised that this is happening, and it is a wonderful means to have control over all aspects of life...
Posted by extrassential (3 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Control the masses..
mmmm... Control the internet... so that you can control the population...

Not surpised that this is happening, and it is a wonderful means to have control over all aspects of life...
Posted by extrassential (3 comments )
Reply Link Flag
For all of you that are surprised or rattled.
You should have known that if it's connected to the internet you should assume that anything on it or communicated to/from it will scanned and recorded.

Only a few steps before the government subjects the population to an UFIA.

~Mr. Network
Posted by Mr. Network (92 comments )
Reply Link Flag
For all of you that are surprised or rattled.
You should have known that if it's connected to the internet you should assume that anything on it or communicated to/from it will scanned and recorded.

Only a few steps before the government subjects the population to an UFIA.

~Mr. Network
Posted by Mr. Network (92 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Spy here and there.
How can they monitor all this stuff you ask?
It?s the fed?s they get lots of free money so they can afford to build large and
Fast search systems.

Just start off by doing a keywords search that's easy.
Now after you found keywords you then can perform a contextual search.

Where by reading the entire content of a message where the keyword came from you can see if the message is evil or good.

You can even buy this type of software yourself; this is just one of the many companies that sell this type of software.
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.zyn.com/flcfw/fwtproj/perilog-ames.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.zyn.com/flcfw/fwtproj/perilog-ames.html</a>
Than way automatically you can with a computer tell the difference between.

Let?s say your message software is scanning in the gigs of messages and it sees.
The keyword, ?bomb? it tags that message stuff it in different database for more research.

Now completely under computer controls it looks at the messages in this detail search database.

The contextual search then reads this database and sees.

Message 1) from: juicee.moo@quake.com
Jan 10, 2007 10.00 am
From Ip 532.234.356
Traceroute information:
Body of message;

This party was a bomb.

End of message

Message 2) from: al-ki-da@aol.com
Jan 11, 2007 1:00 pm
From ip. 764.434.643
Trace route information:
Body of message;

After the party starts we detonate the bomb.

End of message:

Which message is more evil? The software can tell.
Posted by kobe wild (12 comments )
Reply Link Flag
And of course, all terrorists are stupid, and
they leave messages such as "we will detonate the bomb at 11:00 hours". Right. Don't you think that they are smart enough to speak in code, so that even if their messages are intercepted, no-one will be able to report on them and/or foil their plots?

And if the above is true, then why the h_ll does the FBI need such intrusive methods to spy on all our e-mail traffic (mostly from innocent citizens), since a more likely terrorist message would be, "tell Mom that I will pick her up at 11:00 pm?" which, of course, would likely not alert anyone?
Posted by itango (80 comments )
Link Flag
Spy here and there.
How can they monitor all this stuff you ask?
It?s the fed?s they get lots of free money so they can afford to build large and
Fast search systems.

Just start off by doing a keywords search that's easy.
Now after you found keywords you then can perform a contextual search.

Where by reading the entire content of a message where the keyword came from you can see if the message is evil or good.

You can even buy this type of software yourself; this is just one of the many companies that sell this type of software.
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.zyn.com/flcfw/fwtproj/perilog-ames.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.zyn.com/flcfw/fwtproj/perilog-ames.html</a>
Than way automatically you can with a computer tell the difference between.

Let?s say your message software is scanning in the gigs of messages and it sees.
The keyword, ?bomb? it tags that message stuff it in different database for more research.

Now completely under computer controls it looks at the messages in this detail search database.

The contextual search then reads this database and sees.

Message 1) from: juicee.moo@quake.com
Jan 10, 2007 10.00 am
From Ip 532.234.356
Traceroute information:
Body of message;

This party was a bomb.

End of message

Message 2) from: al-ki-da@aol.com
Jan 11, 2007 1:00 pm
From ip. 764.434.643
Trace route information:
Body of message;

After the party starts we detonate the bomb.

End of message:

Which message is more evil? The software can tell.
Posted by kobe wild (12 comments )
Reply Link Flag
And of course, all terrorists are stupid, and
they leave messages such as "we will detonate the bomb at 11:00 hours". Right. Don't you think that they are smart enough to speak in code, so that even if their messages are intercepted, no-one will be able to report on them and/or foil their plots?

And if the above is true, then why the h_ll does the FBI need such intrusive methods to spy on all our e-mail traffic (mostly from innocent citizens), since a more likely terrorist message would be, "tell Mom that I will pick her up at 11:00 pm?" which, of course, would likely not alert anyone?
Posted by itango (80 comments )
Link Flag
FAILED DATA-BASE...!!!
Last article I read on the subject, was that they invested millions on a database like this that the fbi and cia could use, but it failed and they lost a lot of money...
Posted by SiXiam (69 comments )
Reply Link Flag
FAILED DATA-BASE...!!!
Last article I read on the subject, was that they invested millions on a database like this that the fbi and cia could use, but it failed and they lost a lot of money...
Posted by SiXiam (69 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Monitoring every online action...
I know that since the Patriot act the right to privacy has been fairly eroded, and the mentality of "if you did nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about" has prevailed. Yet I still am stunned to see actions like this taken. Yesterday, there was a story about cyber threats from the FBI and I rallied behind that cause. However, I don't think that we should be throwing rights out the window for potential improved security measure. Just think about every personal email you ever send being stored on a database somewhere. Whether you are witting home to tell the wive and kids I love you, or sending accountant your financial details. I expanded my thoughts on my blog <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.iwantmyess.com/" target="_newWindow">http://www.iwantmyess.com/</a> if you want to read more.
Michael
Posted by MD525 (22 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Monitoring every online action...
I know that since the Patriot act the right to privacy has been fairly eroded, and the mentality of "if you did nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about" has prevailed. Yet I still am stunned to see actions like this taken. Yesterday, there was a story about cyber threats from the FBI and I rallied behind that cause. However, I don't think that we should be throwing rights out the window for potential improved security measure. Just think about every personal email you ever send being stored on a database somewhere. Whether you are witting home to tell the wive and kids I love you, or sending accountant your financial details. I expanded my thoughts on my blog <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.iwantmyess.com/" target="_newWindow">http://www.iwantmyess.com/</a> if you want to read more.
Michael
Posted by MD525 (22 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Internet Or Fed Toilet Bowl ?
How many Americans already feel it or know that the Internet has been and will continue to be Abused Misused and just Out an Out Sodomized by the very Agencies &#38; Government Who outwardly portray themselves As the Worlds "Human Rights" Watch Dogs When the Reality is oh so much more Dangerous. Can you recall what President said When a Government fears it's people you have a Democracy but when the People Fear there Government you have a True Dicatorship. Stand up and look inside, what Do you feel? Do you really think the Patriot Act was tossed together almost overnight because Of some "Crazed Suicide Bombers" NO-WAY! So today out of the blue WE THE PEOPLE are being given notice that " Our Law Enforcement Ossifers" have a "NEW WAY" Of gathering Evidence ? Listen Folks For those of you who fail to grasp the REALITYS of what these Bastards are up to Try this on For size. YOUR TAX DOLLARS Are Being used to Research New Technologys for the Military and Law enforcement So they Can Actually sit above your home and Listen to your everyword phone call Key stroke you name it And they don't have to leave the Office Or rather the Basement which is no doubt where there Covert Crap is taking place. But think folks Your Dollars Being used to Create Super Huge Vast Amounts of wealth for the Pro- Military hardware Pals and there close friends the PetroBoys who incase you haven't noticed have already Made yr in and yr out HISTORY MAKING MEGA BILLINS IN PROFITS ! Now how many of you nice people think the Top CEOs down at Citgo Or Texaco Really Need to purchase that Other Inland Paradise ? Or do they really Need that 7th Gulfstream G5 ? Could you imagine being so Filthy Freckin Rich that you Sent your Daughter to Argentina So she could purchase her very Own 98 Thousand Acre Ranch right Next door from Old Tricky ***** who's driveway which is directly across the Runway from Ole G.W.Bush and his Private Jetway And now they have a room full of TechNo Geeks Designing Software that can toss your computer upside down without turning it on AND THEY DO IT EACH AND EVERY DAY while your asleep or up watching the WE WILL TELL YOU WHAT TO SEE nightly Corporate News . Oh Yes People you are without even trying being flipped and Dicked.
Posted by Ragingdemo (9 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Internet Or Fed Toilet Bowl ?
How many Americans already feel it or know that the Internet has been and will continue to be Abused Misused and just Out an Out Sodomized by the very Agencies &#38; Government Who outwardly portray themselves As the Worlds "Human Rights" Watch Dogs When the Reality is oh so much more Dangerous. Can you recall what President said When a Government fears it's people you have a Democracy but when the People Fear there Government you have a True Dicatorship. Stand up and look inside, what Do you feel? Do you really think the Patriot Act was tossed together almost overnight because Of some "Crazed Suicide Bombers" NO-WAY! So today out of the blue WE THE PEOPLE are being given notice that " Our Law Enforcement Ossifers" have a "NEW WAY" Of gathering Evidence ? Listen Folks For those of you who fail to grasp the REALITYS of what these Bastards are up to Try this on For size. YOUR TAX DOLLARS Are Being used to Research New Technologys for the Military and Law enforcement So they Can Actually sit above your home and Listen to your everyword phone call Key stroke you name it And they don't have to leave the Office Or rather the Basement which is no doubt where there Covert Crap is taking place. But think folks Your Dollars Being used to Create Super Huge Vast Amounts of wealth for the Pro- Military hardware Pals and there close friends the PetroBoys who incase you haven't noticed have already Made yr in and yr out HISTORY MAKING MEGA BILLINS IN PROFITS ! Now how many of you nice people think the Top CEOs down at Citgo Or Texaco Really Need to purchase that Other Inland Paradise ? Or do they really Need that 7th Gulfstream G5 ? Could you imagine being so Filthy Freckin Rich that you Sent your Daughter to Argentina So she could purchase her very Own 98 Thousand Acre Ranch right Next door from Old Tricky ***** who's driveway which is directly across the Runway from Ole G.W.Bush and his Private Jetway And now they have a room full of TechNo Geeks Designing Software that can toss your computer upside down without turning it on AND THEY DO IT EACH AND EVERY DAY while your asleep or up watching the WE WILL TELL YOU WHAT TO SEE nightly Corporate News . Oh Yes People you are without even trying being flipped and Dicked.
Posted by Ragingdemo (9 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Perhaps we'll need a secure email service now
I guess we're gonna be needing something more secure for email that runs on SSL? e.g. <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.rlemail.com" target="_newWindow">http://www.rlemail.com</a>
Posted by stevefoley (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
If you want secure email . . .
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.gnupg.org" target="_newWindow">http://www.gnupg.org</a>
Posted by rcrusoe (1305 comments )
Link Flag
Perhaps we'll need a secure email service now
I guess we're gonna be needing something more secure for email that runs on SSL? e.g. <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.rlemail.com" target="_newWindow">http://www.rlemail.com</a>
Posted by stevefoley (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
If you want secure email . . .
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.gnupg.org" target="_newWindow">http://www.gnupg.org</a>
Posted by rcrusoe (1305 comments )
Link Flag
FBI just doing thier job, I think.
I think that it's OK for such a broad-brush
approach for safeguarding opportunities to
perform their jobs. My ONLY possible gripe
might be if a function of the programming
causes the waste of my time or the use of
my computer's functions in any way. In a
case like that, then whichever controlling
party, (not at all just our security agencies),
but, perhaps we ought to be concerned about the
ways that big business can cause us to loose the
use of computer functions or residual printer
cartridge ink (if, for example, we are not buying
enough ink cartridges to offset the losses in the
sale of the printer if that were the case).
I feel that the folks in our security agencies
are really as ethical as can be. They do not at
all have anything to gain by not being as ethical
as can be. The frustrations which I sometimes
have, instead, are always with large firms which
change the way that my computer or printer works.
These changes are NOT seamless, and are very very
disruptive in my offices.
Thank you for considering my email.
Dan.
Posted by djp123zzz (4 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Doing their job?
Since when is it the job of the FBI or any government agency to disregard the constitution and bill of rights and spy on everyone?

Just another step down the path to dictatorship.
Posted by qwerty75 (1164 comments )
Link Flag
Of course they are
The FBI is doing what the FBI does. The article clearly states that they need a warrant, so this is clearly NOT spying, and obviously NOT blanket survelance. If the data-retention laws currently up for debate are passed, then as the article implies, the FBI would have no reason for this approach, because they'll be able to collect data on JUST the person they have a court order to watch.

What I find REALLY odd, is that all of the people out here whining and complaining have essentially signed an agreement to let their ISP store and monitor any of their traffic. But when the FBI, working in our intereste, gets a court order(check/balance for our interests) to obtain data for an investigation, people suddenly become paranoid and accuse the government of being abusive.

The anti-government comments here really make zero sense. Basically, people are saying... "I trust all my data to my ISP and whomever they choose to hire." While at the same time they seem to be saying "I don't trust my data to the FBI, who is working to protect me, even after a court reviews their request and agrees that it doesn't violate my rights or present unnecessary harm."

Some people really have this situation layed out completely backwards. It is your ISP you should be frightened of. They'll hire ANYBODY. Consider how many hackers would find it adventageous to work for an ISP. ISPs don't need court orders to research your activities. You've thrown all your information into the hands of the unknown, while you sit around and complain that national defense and crime fighting efforts using the same information are abusive. When will people grow up?
Posted by David Arbogast (1709 comments )
Link Flag
Don't know what you are talking about
I can't believe your comments. You think the folks in security agencies are being ethical? If they were doing that what the hell do they need such broad brush approach to checking emails for anyway? I am really glad I am not an American citizan right now. You are losing your freedoms by and far, much quicker than most of you realize. Your government is prying into email, and taking a lot of what people write out of context. For instanse. I might say, "I wish someone would kill G.W." I really don't mean this, I'm just pissed at what he and some of his cohorts are doing in government. But I also might say, "Someone should plant a damn bomb in the Whitehouse" This comment will get the governments attention, yet I'm just being an ******* by saying this. I understand the need for security, but come on now. This is really infringing on rights of free speech.
Now after saying this, I am sure the Canadian government has a very similar approach, but we just don't hear about it. One thing I can say about you Americans, is that eventually you do get the news,something I can't say we Canadians get. Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion.
Posted by hanglow1956 (2 comments )
Link Flag
FBI just doing thier job, I think.
I think that it's OK for such a broad-brush
approach for safeguarding opportunities to
perform their jobs. My ONLY possible gripe
might be if a function of the programming
causes the waste of my time or the use of
my computer's functions in any way. In a
case like that, then whichever controlling
party, (not at all just our security agencies),
but, perhaps we ought to be concerned about the
ways that big business can cause us to loose the
use of computer functions or residual printer
cartridge ink (if, for example, we are not buying
enough ink cartridges to offset the losses in the
sale of the printer if that were the case).
I feel that the folks in our security agencies
are really as ethical as can be. They do not at
all have anything to gain by not being as ethical
as can be. The frustrations which I sometimes
have, instead, are always with large firms which
change the way that my computer or printer works.
These changes are NOT seamless, and are very very
disruptive in my offices.
Thank you for considering my email.
Dan.
Posted by djp123zzz (4 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Doing their job?
Since when is it the job of the FBI or any government agency to disregard the constitution and bill of rights and spy on everyone?

Just another step down the path to dictatorship.
Posted by qwerty75 (1164 comments )
Link Flag
Of course they are
The FBI is doing what the FBI does. The article clearly states that they need a warrant, so this is clearly NOT spying, and obviously NOT blanket survelance. If the data-retention laws currently up for debate are passed, then as the article implies, the FBI would have no reason for this approach, because they'll be able to collect data on JUST the person they have a court order to watch.

What I find REALLY odd, is that all of the people out here whining and complaining have essentially signed an agreement to let their ISP store and monitor any of their traffic. But when the FBI, working in our intereste, gets a court order(check/balance for our interests) to obtain data for an investigation, people suddenly become paranoid and accuse the government of being abusive.

The anti-government comments here really make zero sense. Basically, people are saying... "I trust all my data to my ISP and whomever they choose to hire." While at the same time they seem to be saying "I don't trust my data to the FBI, who is working to protect me, even after a court reviews their request and agrees that it doesn't violate my rights or present unnecessary harm."

Some people really have this situation layed out completely backwards. It is your ISP you should be frightened of. They'll hire ANYBODY. Consider how many hackers would find it adventageous to work for an ISP. ISPs don't need court orders to research your activities. You've thrown all your information into the hands of the unknown, while you sit around and complain that national defense and crime fighting efforts using the same information are abusive. When will people grow up?
Posted by David Arbogast (1709 comments )
Link Flag
Don't know what you are talking about
I can't believe your comments. You think the folks in security agencies are being ethical? If they were doing that what the hell do they need such broad brush approach to checking emails for anyway? I am really glad I am not an American citizan right now. You are losing your freedoms by and far, much quicker than most of you realize. Your government is prying into email, and taking a lot of what people write out of context. For instanse. I might say, "I wish someone would kill G.W." I really don't mean this, I'm just pissed at what he and some of his cohorts are doing in government. But I also might say, "Someone should plant a damn bomb in the Whitehouse" This comment will get the governments attention, yet I'm just being an ******* by saying this. I understand the need for security, but come on now. This is really infringing on rights of free speech.
Now after saying this, I am sure the Canadian government has a very similar approach, but we just don't hear about it. One thing I can say about you Americans, is that eventually you do get the news,something I can't say we Canadians get. Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion.
Posted by hanglow1956 (2 comments )
Link Flag
Failure Becomes Institutionlized
The FBI is the culture of failure.
Posted by flashfast (38 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Failure Becomes Institutionlized
The FBI is the culture of failure.
Posted by flashfast (38 comments )
Reply Link Flag
FBI MONITORING
Whether this is all for the good, or bad, only time will tell. I can say that, for any that have been paying attention, the Administration has spent the last six years moving towards a totalitarian regime. The Iraq War, many believe, was for the sole purpose of increasing the President's powers as a War-Time President. They say it didn't matter who we went to war with but a war was the only way for him to utilize powers reserved for war-time. Since then the Administration has done everything possible to move towards a dictatorial form of government. They have knowledge of every gun in America, every National Guard is now in their control (instead of the State's), they have put their people in place in the DHS, Supreme Court, and Attorney General's Office (to name a few). It will take a long time to figure out if this is a good or bad thing. One thing is undeniable, though, and that is that this Administration, one way or another, will not step out of office in 2008. They are only just beginning. It is more than a little scary because it brings to mind governments which have monitored, through fear, the communications of their citizens; Communist Russia, China, Iraq, and Cuba (to name a few). There is a saying that states that Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely. It is a difficult task for a person to assume complete power over a nation (where 2/3 of the people don't like him) and make it work. It would take a horrendous act to give him the total control and to that end I am horrified at the possibilities they might employ to not only stay in office, but to eliminate those who might stop them.
With this new revelation we all need to remember that America is a land OF THE PEOPLE, and if we allow fear to control us we will, in fact, be putting our Democracy away forever.
We must stand up for our rights or we will no longer have any.
Robin Szczepaniak
Posted by RobinSzcz (5 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Well, apparently
he isn't doing a very good job of making himself dictator of the
United States considering the Democrats now have control of both
the house and senate.

But then again, fools will be fools. Let me give you a tip. Go spend
a month in a country that really is a totalitarian regime. If you
survive, you may gain some wisdom.
Posted by b_baggins (772 comments )
Link Flag
FBI MONITORING
Whether this is all for the good, or bad, only time will tell. I can say that, for any that have been paying attention, the Administration has spent the last six years moving towards a totalitarian regime. The Iraq War, many believe, was for the sole purpose of increasing the President's powers as a War-Time President. They say it didn't matter who we went to war with but a war was the only way for him to utilize powers reserved for war-time. Since then the Administration has done everything possible to move towards a dictatorial form of government. They have knowledge of every gun in America, every National Guard is now in their control (instead of the State's), they have put their people in place in the DHS, Supreme Court, and Attorney General's Office (to name a few). It will take a long time to figure out if this is a good or bad thing. One thing is undeniable, though, and that is that this Administration, one way or another, will not step out of office in 2008. They are only just beginning. It is more than a little scary because it brings to mind governments which have monitored, through fear, the communications of their citizens; Communist Russia, China, Iraq, and Cuba (to name a few). There is a saying that states that Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely. It is a difficult task for a person to assume complete power over a nation (where 2/3 of the people don't like him) and make it work. It would take a horrendous act to give him the total control and to that end I am horrified at the possibilities they might employ to not only stay in office, but to eliminate those who might stop them.
With this new revelation we all need to remember that America is a land OF THE PEOPLE, and if we allow fear to control us we will, in fact, be putting our Democracy away forever.
We must stand up for our rights or we will no longer have any.
Robin Szczepaniak
Posted by RobinSzcz (5 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Well, apparently
he isn't doing a very good job of making himself dictator of the
United States considering the Democrats now have control of both
the house and senate.

But then again, fools will be fools. Let me give you a tip. Go spend
a month in a country that really is a totalitarian regime. If you
survive, you may gain some wisdom.
Posted by b_baggins (772 comments )
Link Flag
If you've got nothing to hide....
If you've got nothing to hide, stop whining. Are they posting all the super private, important, secret information on the internet for all to see? No. So who cares.
Stop being philosophical about how our "rights" are bing violated and think about how many people have been stopped from hurting the US through the FBI's wiretapping.
If you've got nothing to hide, you shouldn't be worried.
Posted by MrMike8824 (4 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Wrong
Yours has to be the most disgraceful post I have read in a long
while. Essentially you are equating the desire for privacy with
unlawful acts. You are a fool.
Posted by lesfilip (496 comments )
Link Flag
Re: If you've got nothing to hide....
This is a common argument, which is base on at least one seriously flawed assumption: That the FBI i.e. the government are the "good guys". Don't forget this particular agency repeatedly blocked the efforts of a few agents to stop 9-11. Since then they have done all in their power to cover it up and have failed to bring any of the true perps to justice. The question is not if you've got something to hide, but what are they trying to hide?

Ruby Ridge, Waco, OKC, TWA 800, WTC.... how many lies does it take?
Posted by artychoke (2 comments )
Link Flag
Why don't you move to China?
If you don't mind the government snooping in your personal business. Personally, I prefer the US Constitution and the model of the government being created by me to serve me, not be my nanny.
Posted by mitiori (8 comments )
Link Flag
MrMike is correct
In 2007, if you believe you have an expectation of privacy anywhere (n general) and on the net, your a fool. If you don?t do gangster ****, don?t praise allah, and pay your taxes, the government doesn?t care about you.

I?m down with the Constitution, and would die for it, however the executive and its agencies will do whatever they want, in the name of protecting America. Its only when things like this are exposed is when public debate decides it a good or bad thing.
Posted by R.Jefferson (136 comments )
Link Flag
Its that sort of attitude that scares me the most
We maybe in the future I might have something to hide - the sort of thing that brought about the constitution and so-called freedom from tyranny and corruption.

But beside the obvious, that is allowing this to happen allows abuse and illegal behaviour in the name of protection.

There is a reason why the government is not allowed to search and seize without court oversight

It is so that corrupt police or politicians can't spy on those that would help bring them to justice.. for instance a reporter who that reveals the FBI is spying on everyone via internet service providers.

But it seems to me that people here would rather live in a communist state than have freedom of movement or to be free of search and seizures without court oversight.

When I have to report to the government when I travel by air.. when I have to allow the government listen in on my calls to family overseas.. when I have to allow the government to spy on my internet activity.. when I see people randomly gathered up in foreign countries, stuck in a prison in Cuba, tortured into confessing whatever their inquisitors demand, have their right to demand the reasons for their imprisonment taken away, to have their rights under the geneva conventions taken away (as well as the right to reveal such violations in court made illegal).. when the very soul of what created this nation is tarnished by greedy, scum buckets that use a terrorist attack to enrich themselves and their friends.. creating a communist state in order to protect themselves and hide their illegal behaviour.. I find it disturbing that people say things like

"if you've got nothing to hide then you shouldn't care if we blatently violate the constitution"
Posted by ajbright (447 comments )
Link Flag
So, just because the government is doing it makes it right?
This is along the same lines as those spyware programs that come with certain music players that monitor where you like to surf and what songs you like to play. Except on a much grander scale.

But, because the government is doing it, it makes it ok? But if Sony music monitors you, "It's violating my rights" you say.

"But we did it to help better serve our customers" Sony music will say. "But it's violating my right to privacy!" you will reply.

But hey, if you've got nothing to hide, then stop whining.
Posted by MasterWang (9 comments )
Link Flag
Always one in the bunch
The village IDIOT has spoken.
Posted by Thomas, David (1947 comments )
Link Flag
If you've got nothin to hide...
This is really offensive! I,ve heard it from way too many people whodon't seem to realize that they are leaving to to someone else to determine what's to hide. Are you an antiwar Quaker for example? Some think that is an offense to our country and President's messianic ideas. There. I suppose that's an opinion to hide, right?For anyone who thinks this way orneeds an argument against such an opinion I suggest you "google" Pastor Niemoller's poem posted at Auschwitz, read it's history and variations. "I was not a (Fill in the blank) so I didn't stand up",etc.) It will raise thr hairs on your neck.
Posted by BoulderSue (7 comments )
Link Flag
If you want privacy, you have to go low-tech
Regardless of the Bill of Rights or any privacy legislation, in practical terms you have no privacy on the Internet. ISP employees can and do snoop on your activities. So to telco employees. You can bet that, legal or not, law enforcement does as well. Hey, with street-corner cameras and face-recognition software, we're all going to have to start wearing Muslim veils if we want privacy anywhere.
Posted by vm019302 (85 comments )
Link Flag
Tell that to Maher Arar
A Canadian citizen stopped by the U.S when returning to Canada. Deported to Syria on "suspicion" of terrorism, tortured, beaten in a Syrian jail and now back in Canada. Cleared of any suspicion by a Federal commission. Yet remains on a US watch-list based on "information they can't reveal". Yes - we all should be worried.
See <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/" target="_newWindow">http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/</a>
Posted by irreverent1 (2 comments )
Link Flag
See more comment replies
If you've got nothing to hide....
If you've got nothing to hide, stop whining. Are they posting all the super private, important, secret information on the internet for all to see? No. So who cares.
Stop being philosophical about how our "rights" are bing violated and think about how many people have been stopped from hurting the US through the FBI's wiretapping.
If you've got nothing to hide, you shouldn't be worried.
Posted by MrMike8824 (4 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Wrong
Yours has to be the most disgraceful post I have read in a long
while. Essentially you are equating the desire for privacy with
unlawful acts. You are a fool.
Posted by lesfilip (496 comments )
Link Flag
Re: If you've got nothing to hide....
This is a common argument, which is base on at least one seriously flawed assumption: That the FBI i.e. the government are the "good guys". Don't forget this particular agency repeatedly blocked the efforts of a few agents to stop 9-11. Since then they have done all in their power to cover it up and have failed to bring any of the true perps to justice. The question is not if you've got something to hide, but what are they trying to hide?

Ruby Ridge, Waco, OKC, TWA 800, WTC.... how many lies does it take?
Posted by artychoke (2 comments )
Link Flag
Why don't you move to China?
If you don't mind the government snooping in your personal business. Personally, I prefer the US Constitution and the model of the government being created by me to serve me, not be my nanny.
Posted by mitiori (8 comments )
Link Flag
MrMike is correct
In 2007, if you believe you have an expectation of privacy anywhere (n general) and on the net, your a fool. If you don?t do gangster ****, don?t praise allah, and pay your taxes, the government doesn?t care about you.

I?m down with the Constitution, and would die for it, however the executive and its agencies will do whatever they want, in the name of protecting America. Its only when things like this are exposed is when public debate decides it a good or bad thing.
Posted by R.Jefferson (136 comments )
Link Flag
Its that sort of attitude that scares me the most
We maybe in the future I might have something to hide - the sort of thing that brought about the constitution and so-called freedom from tyranny and corruption.

But beside the obvious, that is allowing this to happen allows abuse and illegal behaviour in the name of protection.

There is a reason why the government is not allowed to search and seize without court oversight

It is so that corrupt police or politicians can't spy on those that would help bring them to justice.. for instance a reporter who that reveals the FBI is spying on everyone via internet service providers.

But it seems to me that people here would rather live in a communist state than have freedom of movement or to be free of search and seizures without court oversight.

When I have to report to the government when I travel by air.. when I have to allow the government listen in on my calls to family overseas.. when I have to allow the government to spy on my internet activity.. when I see people randomly gathered up in foreign countries, stuck in a prison in Cuba, tortured into confessing whatever their inquisitors demand, have their right to demand the reasons for their imprisonment taken away, to have their rights under the geneva conventions taken away (as well as the right to reveal such violations in court made illegal).. when the very soul of what created this nation is tarnished by greedy, scum buckets that use a terrorist attack to enrich themselves and their friends.. creating a communist state in order to protect themselves and hide their illegal behaviour.. I find it disturbing that people say things like

"if you've got nothing to hide then you shouldn't care if we blatently violate the constitution"
Posted by ajbright (447 comments )
Link Flag
So, just because the government is doing it makes it right?
This is along the same lines as those spyware programs that come with certain music players that monitor where you like to surf and what songs you like to play. Except on a much grander scale.

But, because the government is doing it, it makes it ok? But if Sony music monitors you, "It's violating my rights" you say.

"But we did it to help better serve our customers" Sony music will say. "But it's violating my right to privacy!" you will reply.

But hey, if you've got nothing to hide, then stop whining.
Posted by MasterWang (9 comments )
Link Flag
Always one in the bunch
The village IDIOT has spoken.
Posted by Thomas, David (1947 comments )
Link Flag
If you've got nothin to hide...
This is really offensive! I,ve heard it from way too many people whodon't seem to realize that they are leaving to to someone else to determine what's to hide. Are you an antiwar Quaker for example? Some think that is an offense to our country and President's messianic ideas. There. I suppose that's an opinion to hide, right?For anyone who thinks this way orneeds an argument against such an opinion I suggest you "google" Pastor Niemoller's poem posted at Auschwitz, read it's history and variations. "I was not a (Fill in the blank) so I didn't stand up",etc.) It will raise thr hairs on your neck.
Posted by BoulderSue (7 comments )
Link Flag
If you want privacy, you have to go low-tech
Regardless of the Bill of Rights or any privacy legislation, in practical terms you have no privacy on the Internet. ISP employees can and do snoop on your activities. So to telco employees. You can bet that, legal or not, law enforcement does as well. Hey, with street-corner cameras and face-recognition software, we're all going to have to start wearing Muslim veils if we want privacy anywhere.
Posted by vm019302 (85 comments )
Link Flag
Tell that to Maher Arar
A Canadian citizen stopped by the U.S when returning to Canada. Deported to Syria on "suspicion" of terrorism, tortured, beaten in a Syrian jail and now back in Canada. Cleared of any suspicion by a Federal commission. Yet remains on a US watch-list based on "information they can't reveal". Yes - we all should be worried.
See <a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/" target="_newWindow">http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/</a>
Posted by irreverent1 (2 comments )
Link Flag
See more comment replies
Eventually, even the FBI will be hacked.
I shudder at the thought of this know-all database because, if they do have a database that records all internet traffic then eventually it WILL be hacked. I can guarantee it. If not by a group of hackers in their basement, but a foreign agency wanting the FBI's info.

In this day and age never say never. No system is 100% hack proof. Because the fact that they intercept ALL communications on the internet, they could have people's confidential financial information and once they're hacked, all that info will be compromised.

Even though they haven't been hacked yet, you cannot say it never will happen.
Posted by MasterWang (9 comments )
Reply Link Flag
So will your ISP
And the hacker will have access to all of your Internet use logs and whatever other information your ISP has retained.
Posted by vm019302 (85 comments )
Link Flag
Eventually, even the FBI will be hacked.
I shudder at the thought of this know-all database because, if they do have a database that records all internet traffic then eventually it WILL be hacked. I can guarantee it. If not by a group of hackers in their basement, but a foreign agency wanting the FBI's info.

In this day and age never say never. No system is 100% hack proof. Because the fact that they intercept ALL communications on the internet, they could have people's confidential financial information and once they're hacked, all that info will be compromised.

Even though they haven't been hacked yet, you cannot say it never will happen.
Posted by MasterWang (9 comments )
Reply Link Flag
So will your ISP
And the hacker will have access to all of your Internet use logs and whatever other information your ISP has retained.
Posted by vm019302 (85 comments )
Link Flag
The Internet isn't private and never has been
I always think that Internet 'privacy' advocates are hilarious. The nature of digital networks is that everything can be monitored and recorded. If you think you're ever going to have privacy online you're kidding yourself.
Posted by vm019302 (85 comments )
Reply Link Flag
vm01302 your logic is flawed.
Even though digital networks CAN be monitored does NOT make it right to do so. The same thing can be said about your telephone line. People CAN monitor your phone calls, but that does NOT give them the right to do so.
Posted by MasterWang (9 comments )
Link Flag
 

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