May 6, 2005 4:00 AM PDT

FAQ: How Real ID will affect you

What's all the fuss with the Real ID Act about?
President Bush is expected to sign an $82 billion military spending bill soon that will, in part, create electronically readable, federally approved ID cards for Americans. The House of Representatives overwhelmingly approved the package--which includes the Real ID Act--on Thursday.

What does that mean for me?
Starting three years from now, if you live or work in the United States, you'll need a federally approved ID card to travel on an airplane, open a bank account, collect Social Security payments, or take advantage of nearly any government service. Practically speaking, your driver's license likely will have to be reissued to meet federal standards.

News.context

What's new:
The House of Representatives has approved an $82 billion military spending bill with an attachment that would mandate electronically readable ID cards for Americans. President Bush is expected to sign the bill.

Bottom line:
The Real ID Act would establish what amounts to a national identity card. State drivers' licenses and other such documents would have to meet federal ID standards established by the Department of Homeland Security.

More stories on this topic

The Real ID Act hands the Department of Homeland Security the power to set these standards and determine whether state drivers' licenses and other ID cards pass muster. Only ID cards approved by Homeland Security can be accepted "for any official purpose" by the feds.

How will I get one of these new ID cards?
You'll still get one through your state motor vehicle agency, and it will likely take the place of your drivers' license. But the identification process will be more rigorous.

For instance, you'll need to bring a "photo identity document," document your birth date and address, and show that your Social Security number is what you had claimed it to be. U.S. citizens will have to prove that status, and foreigners will have to show a valid visa.

State DMVs will have to verify that these identity documents are legitimate, digitize them and store them permanently. In addition, Social Security numbers must be verified with the Social Security Administration.

What's going to be stored on this ID card?
At a minimum: name, birth date, sex, ID number, a digital photograph, address, and a "common machine-readable technology" that Homeland Security will decide on. The card must also sport "physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes."

Homeland Security is permitted to add additional requirements--such as a fingerprint or retinal scan--on top of those. We won't know for a while what these additional requirements will be.

Why did these ID requirements get attached to an "emergency" military spending bill?
Because it's difficult for politicians to vote against money that will go to the troops in Iraq and tsunami relief. The funds cover ammunition, weapons, tracked combat vehicles, aircraft, troop housing, death benefits, and so on.

The House already approved a standalone version of the Real ID

CONTINUED:
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320 comments

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Where are your Papers!
Oh my god, they're finally doing it. Technology and fear strike again.
Posted by gfsdfge (130 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Didn't we make fun of the Russians for that?
I wonder if the Russians are going to start making jokes about not needing papers to go from state to state...
Posted by catchall (245 comments )
Link Flag
No, not unlees u allow them!
hit me at monop22@hm.com
Posted by monop22 (11 comments )
Link Flag
Interesting implications...
No more bank accounts for children...
Many will not be able to qualify for driver's
licenses (expecially youths getting driver's
licenses are not likely to be able to produce 4
qualifying forms of identity)...
No more same-day licenses or renewals...
Huge costs = increased taxes / decreased
benefits....

Hmmm... and what do we gain? As far as I can
tell, forging an identity will be at least as
simple as it was before, and the wide spread
perception that the system is "better" will
probably lead to reduced scrutiny of the
credentials...

It seems to me that this system would lower
security through to reduced scrutiny, but also
substantially increase public risk because it
permits a malefactor to screen himself to detect
if the identity he's using (even his own) is
being "flagged" for surveillance. Someone that
passess through an identity screen without
incident then knows with a high degree of
certainty to what extent they may operate
without hindrance. It sounds like a great system
to be exploited by terrorists to select
operatives and maximize the chances carrying
whatever mayhem they desire.

This a huge expense and terrible inconvenience
that endangers the general public.
Posted by Gleeplewinky (289 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Re: Interesting implications...
Your first two points assume too much: minors require an adult to co-sign for them currently, the system will account for that in the future; obtaining the license would be the least of your problems, as it sounds similar to the process of obtaining a Passport, which all Americans are capable of.

If 9/11 taught me anything about national security, it's this: added discomfort and time in line is acceptable if it means saving my life.
Posted by (3 comments )
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Interesting implications...
I concur 100%.
Posted by openedeyes (3 comments )
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agreed
Agreed!
Posted by pvandy71 (3 comments )
Link Flag
This is BS
I am pretty sure this act has not been revised from its earlier
drafts on a few key points.

#1. The federal goverment will be able to control the
employment status of a U.S. citizen and ANYTHING they do,
through this act. For example, you may think your fine, but
guess what. After this free speech will no longer be "free". Say
something some-one does not like, then you may not even be
able to go to a hockey game, let alone the Superbowl (as if many
of us can afford tickets anyway). All someone will have to do to
intimidate ANY U.S. citizen, is press a button.

Wake up people, we are taking this one up the rectum.
Posted by Thomas, David (1947 comments )
Reply Link Flag
What's the problem?
How can free speach be dependent on if you can show a working ID or not? If you say something that is against the law (US or other), I assume that you may be arrested anyway.
Posted by (15 comments )
Link Flag
DMV
Watch out for the "bureaucracy" whoever and whenever they come to the forefront. When you are forced to go to the DMV and get "tagged" next year because you are untrusted you may feel a pervasive thickness in the air that will raise your blood pressure. How would you like to be a returning vet from Iraq or where ever, and be made to feel like the freedoms your buddy lost their life for is to support Mother...er..Homeland.
Posted by marknev (4 comments )
Link Flag
sorry im late! read me!
i have an idea that will intercept this in less than 3 months. hit me @ monop22@hm.com asap!
Posted by monop22 (11 comments )
Link Flag
Welcome to the United Fascist States of America
More proof that the US is nothing but a nation of cowards. This will solve nothing, but now we give up even more liberty that our once great country was founded upon. We will be no more safe, but far less free.

This is a very sad day for Americans and a huge slap to the millions who have fought and died for these freedoms. Hopefully, the court will reverse this immoral and illegal act.

If there is any justice, Bush and his fascist cronies, along with every congressman and senator that voted for this heinous act, will be jailed for treason.
Posted by pcLoadLetter (395 comments )
Reply Link Flag
We'll get no justice through the system...
...the only way we'll get justice on this one is to take it. The day when that will be necessary is coming fast, are you ready?
Posted by Michael Grogan (308 comments )
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Re to Welcome to the United Fascist States of America
I can only, but sincerely, hope that you are a prophet, and a good one at that.
Posted by lorrianne2276 (5 comments )
Link Flag
Oh whatever...
This policy was voted for in majority, from a pool of people that were voted for by a majority of the US people, who in majority demanded action in retaliation to 9/11.

Oh, but lets just keep things the way they are, cause THAT's working.

Pfft.
Posted by FaLLeN01 (8 comments )
Link Flag
Those who would give freedom for security deserve neither. Even as I'm typing this it says right underneath "The posting of advertisements, profanity, or personal attacks is prohibited. Click here to review our Terms of Use." I understand, it's their site, they say what goes on it, but even this is a form of censorship. If I'm not allowed to use the words I think best represent the ideas I'm trying to evoke, then the idea trying to be communicated is still censored, this is idea-death, murder of the living is tragic, murder of the idea is unforgivable. Also who is to define FOR me what words, methods, phrases I can and cannot use to get my point across? Why should their definition of profane be MY definition? Why must any idea be profane to begin with? Start asking questions, think. Truthfully this post should be removed for a terms of use violation, and so should every other one, because we're all ADVERTISING (in our own way) a point of view. Just because trying to get your support and not your money does not mean I'm not using every hopefully effective method I know to convince you that I am right, and get you to buy it hook line and sinker. It's all about perception, perceptual perception, and who's doing the perceiving. If every man is created equal, then no subjective reality program is objective, and objectivity may not even exist. Too many things are too easily misperceived. If I decide to call a black man a ******, with every intent to harm him through the use of that word, and he perceives it as a term of endearment, then my harm has been converted to help. Why must anything ever be taken as offensive? Why ever get offended at anything? Aren't ideas just ideas? If you don't like a specific idea who is going to make you ingest it? Why do you have to listen to them? Will you readily ingest any idea like it or not? This act has the ability to take away your freedom to ingest only the ideas you agree with, it has the ability to destroy your ability to protest. Oh? You protested the XYZ Act? Hey, your ID doesn't work anymore, look at that? Who are you, where are you from? Here you say? But you can't prove it? Jail, now! Freedom first, security if we can manage it later.
Posted by Numbsill (1 comment )
Link Flag
Cheaper to Secure Borders
It would be cheaper to just secure the borders between Mexico and Canada. Crack down on ID Theft and Fraud and Illegal visitors. Nah too easy. Seig Heil!!!
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
Real ID Act help secure borders
Perhaps you should actually read the REAL ID Act. The act would fast track the construction of barriers on border and increase the use of surveillance on the ground to watch the borders.
Posted by (2 comments )
Link Flag
911 terrorists did not enter US via Canada or Mexico
Have people forgotten that ALL the 911 terrorists entered the US legally, and NONE entered via Mexico or Canada?

So why focus on sealing the borders to two of America's biggest trading partners?
Posted by cupsdell (12 comments )
Link Flag
Not cheaper to secure borders
It wont happen that way. We are in the middle of a process that will create a European Union (EU) type of union that would open wide the borders between Canada, US and Mexico, and give over authority within our borders to a democratic body voted into power by the participating countries.

In the long run we lose
Posted by pvandy71 (3 comments )
Link Flag
Anyone that believes that having a centralized system, whether Smart Chips or RFID, will provide them with extra security, neither comprehends anything put before them and the real threat, nor will they actually see crime or terrorism rates lowered in any manner. All that these do, is provide anyone hacked into the system, to know your location, buying habits, control your use of cash. The entire system is set up as a control, and that is a threat in and of itself, to being independent.

Dissension, debate and civil disobedience will eventually become a thing of the past. Your political stance will be dictated and essentially, those who fail to question our leadership on this matter now, will submit our children to a new form of slavery. Great Job America/World... way to bow it.
Posted by DirtDiver76 (2 comments )
Link Flag
Didn't Nazi Germany Start This way?
July 22, 1938: Effective January 1, 1939, all Jews must carry a special identification card.

Does this sound familiar? Maybe its just me.
Posted by (3 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Yes, but...
The nazis didn't *originally* require papers of
everyone. Various communist countries
implemented a primitive form of this sort of
thing and as such it has always been
conceptually associated as a tool for government
opression.

There are a number of people that claim that
Bush is a closet nazi or some such, though, I'm
willing to accept that he's not a nazi but
rather simply a clueless man that listens to
clueless advisors about superficial solutions to
poorly posed problems. Albeit, I do understand
that Bush was the favored mainstream candidate
amongst domestic neo-nazis, but I'm sure that's
a matter of he being as far right a candidate as
was available.

That's not to say that Bush and his advisors
don't have some level of dogmatic similarity
with the third reich. There are parts of the US
Patriot act that read VERY similarly to soviet
and nazi-era laws with regard to surveillance
and arrest powers (particularly compared to
pre-existing US law). And, of course the Bush
administration's public chastisement of anti-war
protestors with "You are either with us, or with
the terrorists," and the accompanying rallying
of the public to support the war in Iraq was
eerily reminiscent of Hermann Goering's (Nazi
Luftwaffe-Chief) sentiment:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after
all, it's the leaders of the country who
determine the policy, and it's always a simple
matter to drag the people along whether it's a
democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a
parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice
or no voice, the people can always be brought to
the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All
you have to do is tell them they are being
attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism, and exposing the country to greater
danger."
Posted by Gleeplewinky (289 comments )
Link Flag
no not really
No the IDs had nothing to do with it.
Most european countries had machine readable ids for quite a while now.
Faschism is a state of mind and has nothing to do with technology or IDs.
Posted by AlexRiedel (24 comments )
Link Flag
this wont stop terrorism
yes i would agree, this is similar to what the nazis do, we should all pay attention to this, I lost a family member on 9/11 and he lost his right to live, but a national I.d card with not do what it is intended to do and will be an invasion into our privacy. I hope millions of americans will write their senators and representatives now, and put a stop to this. Enough of my personal information is out there and its no ones business, and for identity theft and terrorism, this is not the way to go..
Posted by (1 comment )
Link Flag
Nazi Germany & U.S.
The United States has adopted several "laws" that were established by Hitler.The first one was gun control laws,and yes the ID Act is the second one.But unlike Hitler,our government and the issue of a national ID is now global.The world government is not targeting just one race of people,but all races.Under the false pretense of security you will be required to "show your papers" for any and all transactions.As long as the government can keep yelling "the terrorist are coming" people will line up like sheep to accept this new "protection" plan.
Posted by shaneh10 (2 comments )
Link Flag
Despite their best intentions, this will be rife with abuse
It would be easy to cry Big Brother here and parlay the fears from the past four years into a real version of 1984, but that is only the most obvious concern. Our government has already imposed a national ID system of sorts, starting with the Social Security system generations ago, so this is just the next step really. Im less concerned about being hauled out of bed in the middle of the night never to be heard from again than I am of my identity or personal data being abused or manipulated.

Much of this new system is probably modeled off of the CAC (Common Access Card) used by the government for ID of military, federal, and contractor employees. Ive had one (on my second one, and another version is coming soon) for some time now, and use it to identify myself on the computer network I use at work. It also allows me to access my email from anywhere by using a card reader, my PIN, and my network username and password.

This technology is handy because it is instant identification, a source of personal data that proves who you are, but unfortunately is very vulnerable to alteration and abuse. The CAC card currently in use has three forms of data encoding built into it  a magnetic strip, a barcode field, and a memory chip to store electronic certificates. The memory chip contains the most information, but is easily modified with the correct software and CAC reader. Because of this obvious security risk, CAC card usage is not allowed in secure networked environments.

When you think of all of the technology created to prevent copyright infringement, illegal network access, identity theft, and financial thievery  and how quickly it is subverted, the problem becomes plain. The more we rely on technology to aid in our daily lives, the more vulnerable we become to its abuse. How these politicians can overlook that fact is beyond me, but logic and reason is often ignored in knee-jerk reactions to a perceived problem.
Posted by Titos 2 Cents (18 comments )
Reply Link Flag
I concur.
Namely, we are setting up a system that relies
entirely on a bureaucratic and technological
abstraction. We are replacing "who are you?"
with "who does the system think you are?".
There's a spooky nuance to that difference that
has nothing to do with the obvious encroachment
into the individuals personal space.

If the system fails, you become a powerless
nobody. If the system says you are someone you
are not (highly likely, since to date the
government still relies on SSNs and even *names*
to associated records with individuals), you
might be paired up with baggage that is not
yours. The implication too is that in an effort
to associate an identity with the token, there's
a database with that identity -- information
easily corrupted, stolen, or modified
(intenttionally or not). And what of
third-parties that tap the identity information
to target you for advertisements, confidence
schemes, or even violence (there are a number of
cases where people misidentified as sex
offenders by database companies or authorities
have been physically and financially harmed by
others as a result, for example).

Moreover, a reliance on the fidelity of the
system means reduced scrutiny or focus
elsewhere. The people that sponsored this bill
clearly have not thought through how the system
as a whole would work -- not from a technical
standpoint, but how the user-base will adapt to
it. They should ask themselves, in absence of a
large system dependent on dependent on multiple
complicit parties and connectivity of the
system's components, how can we implement a
system that is focused and involves the fewest
number of individuals and components while
achieving the goal of minimizing personal risk?

Hint: start with the assumption that it's
impossible to establish anyone's identity -- and
start from there. The fact that I am me, even if
you could associate some deeper meaning to that
with absolute fidelity, does not diminish my
capability to alter my outlook or disposition.
We lose sight of the fact that regardless of how
unhinged and radical, a terrorist was once a
blank slate -- only to have their ideologies
affixed with the passage of time.
Posted by Gleeplewinky (289 comments )
Link Flag
This is not a 'best intentions' bill
Back in 2000, before the election Dumbya said: "There ought to be limits on freedom".

More control over the populace has been a dream of the republican party for a long time. 9/11 gave them the excuse to trot out bills that they have had in storage(IE "PATRIOT" act), and as a means to keep the population scared and in control, so they can whittle away freedoms and secure their own power permanantly.
Posted by pcLoadLetter (395 comments )
Link Flag
Chicken or Egg?
Where do you get four valid, legal IDs, including a picture ID, in order to get this ID? This will be replacing the DMV driver's license/ID. Most native born Americans don't have any photo ID except from the DMV. Most people can get copies of their birth certificate. Name three more IDs most Americans have...
Posted by Jimmu411 (51 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Part of energy bill...
... by making it impossible to obtain a driver's
license, there will be fewer drivers and thus
less cars. With less cars on the road, we'll use
less gas...

Yes, yes... Now it's all so clear.
Posted by Gleeplewinky (289 comments )
Link Flag
hmm.. interesting
So in the once-again name of homeland security (The current day term to erode rights of law-abiding citizens) we are going to now all have to register with the government with electronic capable id cards (possible with RFID and Tracking). Isnt that just grand.. when looking at identity theft, it is found that a lot of these big databases are the ones cracked, and guess who provided them in the first place.. oh yeah our governement.. remember those oh so technically advanced people? I seem to remember they just had to drop a million dollar spend program to link all the intellengence agencies together because they just couldnt figure it out..

Aside from all the other previously made statements in the replies to this article.. (and i happen to agree with most of them.. especially the quote from Nazi Germany.. 1938) I have 2 other issues..

Nice to see the support wouldnt be there for this bill if they didnt try to hide it inside a military funding budget item.. (hmm.. sounds like politics as usual here..)

And more interesting for us technology related people.. this is all being done to protect us from terrorists and bad people in the country right? Seems to me Warren Buffett (Looser and anti-american millionaire [http://oh but wait.. didnt he make his billions off the backs of those americans he now insists be laid off for cheaper labor?|http://oh but wait.. didnt he make his billions off the backs of those americans he now insists be laid off for cheaper labor?]) and Bill Gates were just before the US congress trying real hard to get them to remove the limits on foriegn workers so they can come work here. Oh right because of that "lack of available talent in this country" as Bill Gates put it.. at least one senator was smart enough to remind mr gates that technology unemployment in the US is higher than any other unemployement rate here. So maybe he should have phrased that "Lack of available talent willing to work for a bowl of rice and $.50/hr in this country."

Hey guess what.. its not only the terrorists that are hurting this country.. its rich, arrogant, morons like Gates and Buffet who are destroying it.

Just some things to think about.
Posted by (55 comments )
Reply Link Flag
what's in your wallet?
Bank card, credit card, library card, grocery savings card, social security card, gym membership card, NRA card, parking garage access card, and drivers license all wrapped up into one. Oh yeah, and the government will be able to locate your ass whenever they want. God damn this is a conspiracy theorists wet dream coming true.
Posted by yellowjester (26 comments )
Reply Link Flag
funny subject line
On the upside it makes it much harder for those scumbags to steal your identity and do billions of dollars of damage to our economy every year.

Alex
Posted by AlexRiedel (24 comments )
Link Flag
So Continues the Demise of a Free Country
It looks like we're going to have to give back the Statue of Liberty to France. Does anyone seriously think of the United States as the "Land of Liberty" any more? If so, they're living in the past. Welcome to the United Police States of America.
Posted by steven.randolph (24 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Supposedly Smart People....
continue to come up with completely assnine solutions.
1.) Something of this magnitude should be put up for debate and public discourse, not hidden in an appropriations bill. (For a war a lot of people are not happy with either - neither here nor there) But as one previous poster stated in his Herman Goering post, the sheep will go where they are herded. Or as one of my favorite movie lines put it "A person is smart, people are dumb, dangerous panicky animals." The terrorists are coming, the terrorists are coming...

2.) Did they think about the current mess Social Security is in? i.e. ID theft, illegal aliens paying into SS on someone elses number. I read a story recently about a woman, in michigan I think, that had some thirty people paying into SS on her number. It was affecting the benefits she could collect etc. To make matters worse it is not an easy matter for you to find out if there there are multiple people using your number.

The Govt has known about it for a long time but turns a blind eye because it is "free" money to the govt. Not anymore, now they will have to expend time and money straightening it out now.
Oh wait I forgot, we will just grant amnesty to a few million more - hoping they will remember to vote republican in the next election. Re-number everything and start over...

3.)In a bit of pop culture tie-in. I recently read the Star Wars book "Revenge of the Sith" the one coming out in a couple of weeks. The storyline about how the Republic became an Empire almost eerily parallels our current time. Not that Bush would be the emperor, but the eroding of freedoms in the name of security. etc..

Not to alienate anyone but God save us all...
Posted by (4 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Not that Bush would be the emperor...
...are you so sure? Don't die from a heart attack from the surprise when he imposes marshal law due to terrorist threats just in time to suspend the next election...
Posted by Michael Grogan (308 comments )
Link Flag
We Will, We Will Track You
Fast Forward to 2008:

Here Ms. Oad, here is your new ID card. With it we will know when you're in Starbucks. You won't have to even have a debit card, we'll just RFID what you buy and directly debit your account from your ID card.

And when you're at the baseball game, you won't even need a ticket. We'll know exactly what seat you're supposed to be in, and we'll know if you stayed until the bottom of the ninth inning.

Now Ms. Oad, don't worry about a thing. When you're at the hospital, we will know and so will your insurance company and your employer.

Now Ms. Oad, please sing the following, to the tune of the old song by Queen "We Will, We Will Track You."
Posted by (274 comments )
Reply Link Flag
A timeless quote, very apt to this story.
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. -- Benjamin Franklin
Posted by (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Video form the future...?
A few days ago I watched this video, and thought it was unlikely. Today I see this news story, and it seems like this is what will happen....
www.aclu.org/pizza/
Posted by (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
This could be a script from "The Twilight Zone"
Having to prove beyound a doubt who you really are (with a trusted authority vouching for you) is frankly its not a BAD thing because it stops identity theft, mis-identification and the billions of dollars its costing us per year in fraud.

Why do you think your credit card rates are so high? Well yes, greed,of course. But they also have to cover their losses.

But the key part of that first phrase was TRUSTED authority.

This sets us up for 'identity theft' at a single source, a single point of failure, and that's NEVER smart.

Its setting us up for surveillance like nothing we've ever seen before (you DO know that ALL of your records, from birth 'till death, are accessible by 'the authorities' now.)

The card will inevitably be more truted than you will. (Nightmare scenarios start here.)

Everything from 'Minority Report' will come true.
Posted by CharlesRovira (97 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Does this not sound like something from the Bible?
This seems to sound like the starting of the mark of the beast.
Just weird, very weird!
Posted by (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
weird
looks like something I read in the bible also...NOT good
Posted by (1 comment )
Link Flag
Not good, BUT PERFECT...
... as i was reading all these comments I've noticed something very interesting... though we share the same opposing views on this REAL ID issue many seem to view things more from a socio-political angle (which is normal)... (with the exception of a few who got me started on writing this message)... some of you touched up a bit on the relation between world events and Bible teachings... and i'd like to expand and develop somewhat this Biblical angle on things, the religio-political side which will add to your ideas and your beliefs, and it will strenghten your thoughts and concerns about freedom and about what is to happen in the future, the near future... these are pointers which most people tend to ignore due to lack of knowledge, but mostly because they choose to ignore them...
Have you ever read the book of Revelation in the Bible ? I strongly suggest that people read chapters 13 and 17 from Revelation, last book of the Bible. If this will sound kinda far fetched to you, then maybe you have already forgotten the comments you have made about the newly passed Real ID Act.
I won't have time now to go into great detail. It's really late and have to wake up early. First, let me shed some light on what some words mean in the Bible, as the Bible explains itself. (BEAST = NATION, KING, POWER;) (DRAGON/SERPENT = SATAN/DEVIL;) (WATER/SEA = multitudes of people, nations;) (LAND/GROUND = where there are no people, or very few people;) and in Bible prophecy 1 DAY = 1 YEAR, every time. So for now i'll just give you some clues about Revelation chapter 13, some in the form of a question.

1) 7 heads and 10 horns... Rome is sitting on 7 hills, Rome is called THE CITY ON SEVEN HILLS... does Papal Rome ring a bell ?
10 germanic/barbaric tribes split up the Roman empire and formed the countries of Europe...

2) ruled for 42 months = 1260 years (42mx30d=1260 prophetic days = 1260 years...) does 538-1798 AD ring a bell ? Dark Ages, Papal Supremacy ? then in 1798 General Bertier under Napoleon took the Pope hostage... could this be the mortal wound, which was later healed ? could it have been healed recently under the new pact ?

That's just a bit of info on that first beast. Let's look a bit at the second beast that comes out of the ground. And remember these beasts/powers appear in succession, one after the other, no gaps, and they don't exclude each other (2 beasts can rule at the same time). I wonder what nation/power was starting to take shape in the 1600-1700, in a desolate area/land ? And it was lamb-like, and had two horns.... could that be a humble, God fearing nation, with 2 horns signifying civil rights and religious freedom ? Could you see America that way ? Oh, and later it says it spoke like a DRAGON... so it was a lamb at first, but then spake like a Dragon... I really wonder if all this is just coincidence... I mean, could you really see America now, imposing views, ideas, and in a short while moral/religious views on its people and on the nations of this world ?
And this beast "exercises all the authority of the first beast"... hhmmm... not yet, but everything is leading to it... answer this for me, why did GW Bush convert to Catholicism ? Why did Protestant America go to the Vatican kissing the Pope's feet, hands, and kneeling/worshiping the Pope while even just talking to him ? Protestants who ran away from THE CHURCH and persecution are now kissing up to the Pope. Anyone see anything wrong with this picture ?

In the Bible Jesus clearly says there is only ONE GOD. There is only ONE FATHER let along HOLY FATHER. Jesus says there is one GOD, there is ONE Mediator, and there is the Holy Spirit who is the Bridge between Earth and Heaven. The CHURCH seems to be reading another Bible. The CHURCH says the Pope is the bridge between heaven and earth. And that the Pope is another god on earth, and that the Pope occupies the place of another god on earth. And that all the names attributed to Jesus and God the Father are also attributed to him. And that Mary (who is long dead) is the mediator and our helper. But even then, the priest is the highest ranked, and then Mary, and if they still have room and time for Jesus they'll find him a spot in the basement somewhere...

Why is the Pope called THE HOLY FATHER ? Why does Bush who used to be a protestant call the Pope HOLY FATHER ? There IS no HOLY man here on earth... and he's no FATHER... HOLY FATHER is ONLY GOD THE FATHER... Why is the Pope called VICAR OF CHRIST - which means replacement/substitute of Christ ? In more corect terms I should say VICAR OF THE SON OF GOD which in Latin this is "Vicarivs Filii Dei"... and guess what number you get if you add up the roman numerals (V=5, I=1, C=100, D=500, L=50, X=10) in that name ? you guessed it... 666... is that also in Revelation 13 ? what a coincidence... and this "Vicarivs Filii Dei" is written on the Pope's tripple crown...
All these coincidences and probabilities are starting to ring bells, they are ringing all the bells in the world. Or are they ? Sadly they are not... Wake up people ! Start reading your Bibles and start believing what our TRUE GOD up in Heaven is telling us. We are living prophetic times which I do not understand why anyone would so try to ignore. All these world events, and strifes, and economic crisis, and rumors of war, and natural calamities are all pointing to just one thing. God gave us signs to heed and follow, and no, they are not so detailed as to say "National ID Card" but He says people won't be able to buy or sell (is that not specific enough?). And God tells us that the SECOND BEAST will enforce LAWS and persecute and kill the people who do not obey IT and the FIRST BEAST, and who do not worship the beast. And that MARK OF THE BEAST is not a SPOT, a card, a chip, a statue... it is an action - represented by THE HAND, and/or an acceptance of an idea/belief/doctrine - which is represented by THE FOREHEAD... and this mark of the beast, is a FALSE WAY OF WORSHIP, on a FALSE DAY OF WORSHIP, a false day which DENIES Jesus Christ as being the Creator of the Universe and of this World we live in... you don't believe it ? wait... just watch... God does not lie, and of all the Bible prophecies all have been fulfilled but ONE, the second coming of Jesus...

The world today is just like going down the tunnel of a funnel... and at the end of the tunnel i see Jesus on a white cloud, coming in all His Glory, and His Father's Glory, and all the angel's glory... We need to understand that Satan is fighting a lost battle, and soon he will loose the war, forever. God is greater and stronger than anything and anyone. God is only one, the rest are just created beings. Do you honestly think a created being can win against its own creator ? How can anyone try to set God aside, and try to live without God, away from God, who is the source of all life ? We need to put our trust in God, not men. We need to surrender completely to God, and accept His Son Jesus Christ as our personal saviour. Jesus is our mediator, and He can be our lawyer, that's if we accept Him and ask Him so... We can't be scared of men, and of this world, God promised that He will deliver us and help us through the times of trouble, and what God promises He will deliver... I'm trying to shed some light and give people some hope, because God offered us not just hope but an eternal life with Him, a Heaven beyond our wildest immaginations... I'm not scared of what's to come, but I am saddened by the lack of people's interest in their eternal life... they seem to rather want to die twice, than live eternally with God...

In the begining i said "it was PERFECT"... yes it is, God's plan is PERFECT...

(excuse my jumping around from idea to idea... if you have any comments email me at xymox@charter.net )
Posted by atamotua (7 comments )
Link Flag
I agree
I agree with you in your statement about the mark of the beast. What then are we believers of the written Word to do? I will not take the card. I may be jailed or punished for it, but I will not take that card.
Posted by (1 comment )
Link Flag
does this not sound
not weird, true that's where it's all leading. Bible prophecy being unfolded right before our eyes.
Posted by snowflake49 (4 comments )
Link Flag
You're very perceptive, yes it does sound like something from the Bible.
In fact all the 'higher critics' who scoff at the Bible being Gods Word should take note that what was prophisied at Revelation 13:16-18 is being fulfilled in strict detail. Could it be that Satan has blinded them mentally as 1 Corinthians 4:4 implies.
Posted by mastajooga (2 comments )
Link Flag
What Americans Need to Do NOW
I remember reading in my history books about American citizen
uprisings to protect your freedoms from out of control
governments. I think it's time again.

First thing American's should do

1. Write your congressman and senator a two paragraph
origional letter. The first paragraph should be about your
general dislike for national ID and second how this is going to
affect your vote.

2. Call your congressman and senator today now.

3. Become personally involved with any organization who is
against this policy. Encourage them to organize mass protests
and rallies in Washington. Spend of your own time and money to
help them.

4. Tell everyone you know who dislikes this national ID card to
do the same.

I'm not American. You guys need to be worried right now.
Posted by rodnarms (45 comments )
Reply Link Flag
my word
I agree that you should write to your congressman and senator. I think that a national ID would be un-constitutional and shift too much power to one side of the goverment. Also I agree with other posting saying it could lead to the goverment saying what you can and can't do.
Posted by feedbackuser5 (25 comments )
Link Flag
Write and protest ALL federal senators NOW!
Tell them you do not want this bill to pass, tell them you are fed up with our human rights, those 'God-given rights' and those of 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness', in addition to those granted in our condition being taken away from us, and that you will not vote to put them in office AGAIN if they vote to pass this bill next week. Tell them you are tired of the government allowing this to happen since 9-11!

Call, email, fax, and write today. If we get the word out tonight and tomorrow across the US we can kill this bill in the Senate.

If we do not, then we will have to have each of our states kill it.

We need to be working on having each of our states killing the Patriot's Act illegal sections too. We are having all of our rights taking away while the few true terrorists walk right in and out of our borders and terrorize us at their free will.

Our rights are worth more to us, do not let them be taken away, far to many patriotic American souls have paid with blood, sweat, and tears, and PRAYERS for our rights.

God almighty is watching what is being done in this nation, God almighty will not stand for this much longer.
Posted by (1 comment )
Link Flag
It's Too Late
Bu$h is going to sign this into law. I wrote my congress critter last year about this and received a form letter promising me he "would not knowingly vote for a national ID." Yes, that's actually what he said. And the piece of sh*t voted for this legislation.

The fact is writing letters does no good. We have two corrupt and immoral political parties that control this country and they don't give a damn about the civil liberties of people like you and me. And with two parties having a stranglehold on power in this country you can bet that won't change through peaceful means.
Posted by Sol999 (59 comments )
Link Flag
im with u
hit me at monop22@hm
Posted by monop22 (11 comments )
Link Flag
born in the USA and regreting it
what worng with the US do i have to move to russia to be free from the goverment
Posted by (11 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Split cost of ticket?
I dont like what I see happening when im old enough to get (drafted) into the US military.
Posted by wazzledoozle (288 comments )
Link Flag
The media screws up again
Over and above the fact that the government is rapidly consolidating its postion as public enemy number one, we also learn in this article that reporters don't want to do any research for their story.

This article clearly stated the the Supremes have held that police can demand to see ID from law-abiding citizens and then refer to the Hibel v. Nevada case. In Hibel, the Supremes held that a person can be required to identify themselves. However, the Nevada statute did not require that an ID be produced. And the dicta in the opinion seems to indicate that had a particular form of ID been required the ruling may well have been different.

So, while it is true that police may "demand to see ID", they have been entitled to do so for a long time. The requirement to respond would still seem to be only that a verbal statement of name is required.

Don't get me wrong, I think this is really bad precedent for a free nation. Not that I have a problem with the concept of a national ID, just that the government and other entites that would use such an ID are not to be trusted not to abuse it.

Read Heinlein - the way to avoid high-tech surveilance is to go low-tech - in this case, the RFID can generally be defeated by wrapping the chip in aluminum foil or a similar Faraday shield.

So, if I need such an ID to go into a gevernment building, does that mean when the IRS asks me to show up for an audit that I will not be allowed to attend if I don't have such an ID? And that I won't be allowed to enter the courthouse for jury duty, etc.

This isn't all bad ...
I think a little creative civil disobedience is in order.
Posted by JameMadison_1776 (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Behold the mark of the beast
Revelations Chapter 13 verses 16-18
Posted by jachamp (84 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Re: Behold the mark of the beast
In order to make that statement, you have to interpret the Book of Revelation as literal prophecy. Once you start down that path, then it is impossible to take this system and call it the mark of the beast. Several problems: It is not an implant, the rest of the signs have not preceeded it, and it is being proposed by a committee, not an individual. The other alternative is that youi are interpretting Congress as anti-christ, in which case you still must deal with another question: Why was Social Security, our current form of national identification, not followed by fire and damnation?
Posted by (3 comments )
Link Flag
Hiding this bill shows how corrupt it and Washington DC are
The fact that this bill is being hidden inside an emergency
spending bill shows:

1. Just how corrupt this leadership is!

2. Just how corrupt this bill is!

Corruption thrives in darkness. This act and the "Patriot Act"
seem to be the very examples of government gone awry. These
are the very types of behavior that Thomas Jefferson warned
folks about.
Posted by m.meister (278 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Hear! Hear!
Failures in leadership in the political realm abound. Not a complete list, but the list that I was able to come up with.
* Every Presidential inauguration, large corporations buy or rent out fancy, press excluded venues, and explicitly invite administration personnel specific to their industry for 'conversation'. You can just imagine what sort of conversations they are having. This is essentially buying access to the policy makers and policy enforcers for the sole purpose of begging for favors. Can the common person or even groups of common people have the same access or consideration?
* Every national party convention, essentially the same thing goes on. The same questions stand.
* How can you trust an organization that is in control of it's own compensation packages? Is it any wonder that they have the best retirement and medical benefits? Shouldn't they be in the same Social Security system and Medicare and Medicaid as the common man? Why are they so privileged? And what's worse, why do they think themselves so privileged?
* I believe that it was Congress itself that set the rules that no politician can be held to their campaign promises. If this is the case, it calls the politician's entire election platform into question. So what exactly are we basing our voting decisions on? Is there anything that prevents the politician from promising and saying anything that will get them elected and once in office do whatever is in their own best interests?
* It's really funny, but I thought that the people elected these Senators and Congressmen to their office, and they should be doing what is in the people's best interest rather than their own best interest.
* All in all, I think it's a another demonstration of a failure of leadership.

Leadership to me is something that is very significant in that it requires greater accountability and responsibility to the leader. The leader needs to stop thinking of what's best for themselves first and think more in terms of what's the best for the organization. A leader and all their activities need to be above reproach. They need to continually conduct themselves as if they were in a transparent fishbowl, rather than obscuring and hiding what they are doing.

When faced with questions as to which position they are supporting and why, why don't the current crop of leaders use their good communication skills to clearly and concisely describe their decision making process to support their position? Rather than what they are currently doing, which is to wrap their position in emotionally loaded statements designed to emotionally sway the listener? Is there no logic in their decisions?
Posted by InetUser (28 comments )
Link Flag
what's all the fuss you idiots
BIG BROTHER ALREADY KNOWS EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU FROM THE TIME YOU ARE BORN,WHEN U GET YOUR SS# AND DO YOUR TAXES, DRIVE OR GET EZ PASS. SO SNAP OUT OF IT IDIOTS THERE IS NOTHING U CAN DO IN THE MATRIX. UNLESS U R THE "ONE". HA HA HA HA
Posted by (4 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Idiot?
It is people like you that are the problem. Just keep rolling over there partner. Better yet if you aren't going to do anything about it I will gladly buy you a ticket to move anyplace you want outside the United States. You are part of the solution or part of the problem, cupcake!
Posted by (3 comments )
Link Flag
Idiot too
There's a difference between the government knowing who you are, and real time surveillance and tracking, where a person cannot move without swiping.

I watched the Weather Underground last week.

Agree or not with their policy of blowing up empty buildings to 'send a message', the authorities could not track them down for at least a decade, even tho they walked and operated in public.

Slipping underground for ANY reason, including to escape the Nazis, just got more difficult.

Maximum secrecy for them, maximum transparency for you.

(It should be noted, they went truly militant after Fred Hampton, a rousing orator, and his friend Mark Clark were murdered as they slept, as police broke in and started blazing. That's the official record.)
Posted by dilbertgeg (12 comments )
Link Flag
..
Back in your canister bub!
Posted by Sboston (498 comments )
Link Flag
ID CARD
THIS IS A GREAT IDEAL. MY BIRTH DATE, ADDRESS, ARE PUBLIC RECORD ANYWAY. I DON'T FEEL I WOULD BE GIVING UP ANYTHING THAT IS ALREADY AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC. WE NEED SOMETHING TO SECURE OUR PEOPLE. IF THIS WILL DO IT THAN I AM ALL FOR IT.
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
This will not do anything to protect you
Not only will this not stop terrorism, it will centralize everything in a single place, so you are less safe.

Add that to the fact, that this is completely the opposite of the ideals that our country was founded on.
Posted by pcLoadLetter (395 comments )
Link Flag
You are a moron..
...and with all the other morons like you, you will be first against the wall when the revolution comes!
Posted by Michael Grogan (308 comments )
Link Flag
id cards
Here in the uk we were/are due to have compulsory national id cards(sorry they won't be compulsory but you need them to get medical treatment and to get a job) the law introducing them was scrapped to make way for the election, but now bush's lapdog is back in power expect to see it re-introduced. I'm against them, mainly on the fact that i have to pay £80 (aprox $144) on something i have no choice over, and the reason that was given " to stop terrorists" well it didn't stop the madrid bombers the all carried id cards. Anyway i was so against having id cards i have changed my nationality and i'm no longer a uk national
Posted by (3 comments )
Link Flag
Another link in the chains of control
Yes, it sounds like something from the Bible a little, but what it certainly is for is to control people. The government has found over the years little things to control the public. This is another attempt to peer in to peoples lives. When this signs in to law, I will officially become an outlaw.
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
 

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