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Senate bill gives Americans preference for tech jobs
April 3, 2007 -
H-1B limit reached for next year
June 2, 2006 -
H-1B visas hit roadblock in Congress
March 31, 2006 -
Waging battle on foreign labor
October 6, 2005 -
H-1B visa limit for 2005 already reached
October 1, 2004
On Tuesday, the U.S. government announced that this year's limit on H-1B visas had already been reached after only one day, the first time in history the annual cap had been reached so quickly. Since 1990, American employers have relied on the visas to hire skilled foreign workers for up to six years, often in computer- or engineering-related jobs.
The reason for the surge matters: Congress is expected to hold hearings on raising the limit later this year, and will surely question why the quota was reached so instantly. Technology companies argue the surge is further proof that the quota must be increased, while opponents say there are enough Americans to do those jobs already.
High-tech companies say the visas are critical to filling voids in their workforces and have been lobbying for Congress to raise the cap, which currently stands at 65,000 (but climbs just above 100,000 when a number of exemptions are taken into account). Critics say the program has depressed U.S. wages and put qualified Americans out of jobs.
For lawyers who counsel clients on how to apply for H-1Bs, the record-high 150,000 applications reportedly received by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services by Monday afternoon--the first day it began accepting them--was a natural response to what they said is an ever-narrowing window in which visas remain available.
For the fourth straight year, the cap was reached before the start of the next fiscal year. Two years ago, USCIS determined in early August that it had received enough applications to meet the cap for the next year's batch of the work permits. Last year, the agency had stopped accepting new applications by late May--less than two months after it opened the application window.
"Many people figured out that, if the pattern continued, the 'run out' day would be the first day that anyone could file--namely, April 2," said Crystal Williams, deputy director of programs for the American Immigration Lawyers Association.
Fear of missing out on the visas likely prompted many employers to "frontload" their applications rather than spreading them out over many weeks or months, said Peter Roberts, co-head of the immigration practice at the Stamford, Conn.-based law firm McCarter & English.
"I know that was the advice to my clients: You can't run the risk of waiting and then not being able to employ this individual," said Roberts, whose firm mostly works with companies in the financial services and manufacturing industry.
Programmers Guild founder John Miano had a different take. The run on the visas is nothing short of "an organized campaign to exhaust the quota as quickly as possible," motivated by the hope that Congress will be persuaded that more visas are necessary, he said.
That's precisely the wrong approach, said Miano, whose group supports restrictions on H-1Bs in an effort to combat perceived displacement of American workers and depression of salaries.
"The fact that industry is now capable of putting through a staggering number of H-1B applications in just one day is the best illustration yet of why we need an H-1B quota," he said. "Industry has proved it will not be self-policing when it comes to H-1B numbers."
Unemployment low in techHigh-tech industry advocates of additional H-1B visas said their companies are in a particularly tight spot because U.S. unemployment levels in the computer science and engineering fields are far lower than the nationwide average while the number of job openings is growing, leaving firms little choice but to recruit foreigners.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics figures cited by Oracle vice president Robert Hoffman, the unemployment rate in February 2007 was 2 percent for computer and mathematical occupations and 1.7 percent for architecture and engineering occupations. That's far below the 4.9 percent national rate, although it's about equal to the 1.9 percent rate for all "management, professional and related occupations." Meanwhile, the Department of Labor estimates that the number of new jobs created in math and computer science fields will have grown to about 100,000 by 2014.
"This tells us there is significant demand and a shrinking pool of qualified professionals," Hoffman said.
The employment rates present a serious challenge to American high-tech firms, particularly in combination with recent statistics showing that more than half of advanced degrees in engineering and technology at U.S. universities are awarded to foreigners, Hoffman said.
The timing of this year's shortage is particularly troubling because it occurred long before a new class of international university students received their U.S.-based degrees, said Kara Calvert, director of government relations for the Information Technology Industry Council. ITIC's members include Apple, Dell, Cisco Systems, Intel and Microsoft.
"Our companies cannot submit applications for prospective recruits until they have a degree in hand, which means this new crop of talented individuals may be forced to return home after receiving their U.S. degrees," she said. "Even more troubling is the real possibility that these U.S.-educated workers may begin innovating for our (overseas) competitors."
It's misguided to say there's a connection between the state of the U.S. labor market and the surging demand for H-1B visas, argued Ron Hira, a Rochester Institute of Technology professor and former board member of IEEE-USA, which lobbies for checks on the visa system on behalf of American engineers.
"The argument they make is these U.S. workers just don't exist, but you can't conclude that based on H-1B demand," said Hira, who has also authored a book and reports criticizing the H-1B system. "H-1B demand is completely decoupled from the labor market because they don't have to look for U.S. workers."
Only H-1B dependent companies--that is, when more than 15 percent of their workforces are H-1B holders--are expected certify that they aren't displacing qualified Americans, which means most companies can escape that requirement, Hira said. A new U.S. Senate bill would extend that requirement to all firms that employ foreigners through the visa program and attempts to give the Department of Labor more tools to enforce such rules.
Another reason why foreigners may be attractive to U.S. companies is that they are only required to pay them the "prevailing wage," which is often lower than the market wage, Hira said. The Senate bill would change the way "prevailing wage" is determined in a way designed to raise the minimum payout.
"We really don't know why there is so much demand for these H-1B workers," Hira said, "but there are good reasons why companies would prefer foreign workers over U.S. workers."
See more CNET content tagged:
H-1B, quota, cap, founder, worker
One reason for their decision to do so is that they are able to find a "secure source" of available people to fill open positions. One question that I always asked myself: Why? I beleive that there are people out there who want the job, but they do not want to give it to them, because of "financial reasons". Because they do not want to pay a domestic individual who is qualified for the same job, they would rather seek foreign individuals who will do it, but at a lower pay rate.
It is no wonder there are Americans having a hard time finding a job in a high tech field. They are qualified for the job, live within a given distance of the place, and can do the job effectively, and can have the required or exceeded experience under their belt. But denied the chance to do so because of the employer's refusal to pay the wages to hire them.
salaries are already way lower to begin with. It's gotten to the
point where a visa application is almost a normal part of the
process. On top of that, some administrators will hire workers
for awhile and then let them go when "the visa doesn't come
through" - only to start the cycle over by hiring more people in
the same situation. Telling a boss in education that the salary
range they've approved for a position is way too low to get
qualified workers earns you a look like you've done something
wrong. One boss even told me that if I can't hire someone who's
well-qualified at the measley salary she had assigned to the
position, that she would reduce the position to a trainee position
with lower education and experience requirements - even
though the person would be responsible for a host of mission-
critical production enterprise-class systems.
employment category the there would be the same result.
Whether it was for carpenters, mechanics, nurses, or farm
workers. People want to come here for a better life and wages
that are higher than in their own countries. We are destroying
our middle class and the lid needs to the shut, not at 100,000
but for skills in really short supply say around 1000. We should
not just provide the visas because Microsoft and others want
cheap labor.
know. Majority of all the jobs go to Indians and now Chineese
immigrants, upps, is that the right terminology to use, since they
are H1-B Visas ?
BS!
The fact that the limit was hit in 1 day shows we have a serious demand for these works and if it isnt met it's only american companies that will be adverserely affected. And that's bad for all tech workers. We're going to fall behind other countries.
In any industry there are two forces that compete with each other immigration drives wages down and innovation drives wages up.
For example when Sergey Brin came to the US on a H1-b visa he drove the price down. But when he founded google and innovated he wages for the best and brightest started to go up.
Sergey took the job of one American and directly created tens of thousands of Jobs. Indirectly he created thousands of more jobs through his labor saving devices which allowed people to work more efficiently.
Should the United States hire the best and brightest? Immigration was lax during 90,000. The after 9-11 there was a severe contraction of h-1b visas from 200,000 to 65,000 did this help the industry? No it just forced the big players to develop Research labs overseas.. The exact opposite of what we want in a society.
When a country sends its workers overseas they gain business skills and work experience they could not learn if they were in their home countries. If they return they have foriegn contacts which fosters trade with their home country.
Even if they never return it still helps the home country. When employers see the quality and the quantity of the labor force that comes to the US they are more likely to invest and establish operation in that country. This was certainly the case in India and China.
( but , may be the outsourcing will accelerate and India will benefit more ).
Montessori School in Adelphi, Maryland, but he received further
education at home; his father Michael Brin, a professor in the
Department of Mathematics at the University of Maryland,
nurtured his interest in mathematics..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin
He's a lot brighter than the average H-1B.
And so is Larry Page: "The son of Michigan State University
computer science professor Dr. Carl Victor Page, Larry's love of
computers began at age six. While following in his father's
footsteps in academics, he became an honors graduate from the
University of Michigan, where he earned a bachelor of science
degree in engineering, with a concentration on computer
engineering. During his time in Ann Arbor, Larry built an inkjet
printer out of Lego? bricks."
http://www.google.com/corporate/execs.html
Hmm, Shona Brown, however, hasn't had quite so stellar of a
career, having been a partner in the disreputable McKinsey.
Politicians are missing the point that h1b is better than out sourcing, because at least h1bs pay tax to US government and contribute for medicare and social security fund.
MOST IMPORTANTLY THE ROOT CAUSE OF CURRENT H1 PROBLEM ARE OUT SOURCING COMPANIES. They take job away from US to offshore, then they fill up h1b cap to send their engineers here to work for cheap. I do not think American companies can fill up 150000 h1b in a day that too in middle of semester. MOST APPLICATIONS ARE FROM OFFSHORE COMPANIES.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indian_IT_firms_in_rush_for_H1-B_lottery/articleshow/1825429.cms
My 2 cents following changes will be most beneficial for US economy and its technological advances.
- Restrict H1b only to applicants who have American University Degree ( This will bring in more foreign student, more research fund and more intellectual minds)
- Increase H1b slowly if required (If most of the US graduates want to stay in US and work they should be allow to it will help boost economy and increase technological advances)
Like Alan Kay said, "Most software today is very much like an Egyptian pyramid with millions of bricks piled on top of each other, with no structural integrity, but just done by brute force and thousands of slaves."
We know who the "slaves" are, don't we?
We have by far the best Universities. Only 2 out of the top 20 are not American.
Its kind of a crazy idea to think that we can have a society where there are two many smart people.
Maybe if we loosened the labor market the way that we financial and capital markets the Venture Capitalist would invest in local companies. Instead of Chinese companies like Baidu and Lenovo.
So be careful what you wish for. You may just get it.
Ron Hira of Rochester Institute of Technology examined it and
concluded (as many of us already suspected) that H-1B visas are
used to facilitate off-shoring. The initial H-1B (or L-1) visa-
holder takes back knowledge for use when setting up the off-
shore shop. Subsequent guest-workers are used to facilitate
communications and additional knowledge transfer.
NSF drove for the huge increase in foreign student recruiting
and visas in order to produce more PhDs so that compensation
could be driven down. They explicitly stated that this was their
goal. They were also aware that the tilted economic incentives
would drive more US citizens away from these graduate
programs.
The result across the board has been undermining careers of US
citizens from university to senior level experienced
professionals.
The solution is to decrease the numbers of student visas (f), and
work visas (E, H, J, L...) to numbers low enough for the
government to properly handle the background investigations
and paperwork processing, and to numbers that will restore the
economic benefits for US citizens to get degrees in science and
tech fields, including master's and doctor's degrees. This will
also discourage off-shoring, decrease knowledge transfer, and
hence erosion of the USA's cutting edge lead, and encourage US
firms to recruit and hire US citizens.
Even if we shut the doors completely for the next 10 years, as
Frosty Wooldridge has proposed, or 18 years, we would still not
have brought back into full utilization the huge pool of under-
tapped US citizen science and tech talent.
http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Edu
http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Visas
http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Employment
As my father (one of the few steel workers the U.S. has) says if one country stops shipping steel to the U.S. we will be third world in a matter of months because we don't have a modern steel mill in production.
This goes the same in the tech field, keep importing people the American citizen will be minority.
the companies will be forced to find and train ( if the ones do not meet requirement ) sons of the soil. But i believe , that scenario is not going to happen.
That being said, I agree with you totally that technical interviews don't prove much. They mostly prove that you are good at doing technical interviews, and don't show your work ethic, if you work well in a team, if you care about quality, or how well you learn new things that are "outside the box". I'll bet that even if something is not on your resume, you would be able to RTFM and get up to speed in a short time. Most technical interviewers don't understand this.
The best and the brightest come to America, if you are turning them away then you are loosing the competative advantage that has built this great country.
I am in the IT field and can tell you from first hand expirience there is a shortage of US workers. There is also an overal shortage of skilled people. the H1B has kept the economy humming for the last 8 years - anyone who ignores that is playing the fool
Who's the fool?
The so called "advanced math" that they teach here in high school is teached in the 5th grade in europe.
Let's not talk about work ethic ...
Singapore in math, science & tech.
However, we have huge numbers of 1st generation illegal aliens
and immigrants who don't do so well. They bring down the
averages.
But I agree that too many US schools and teachers seem to go
out of their ways to make math classes an exercise in torture. By
9th grade I had developed a game of not paying attention during
class so that I'd have the challenge of figuring everything out
during the tests. (And while I'm on the topic, why don't those
lazy mathematicians get around to defining division by zero,
FCOL! Get to work ya bums! B-)
The enemy is corporate America who along with our congress is giving away America's jobs in the name of profit, and profit only. Meaning cheap labor
If we Americans do not take a stand, America will turn into a 3rd world cesspool. America's resources are for Americans first, and jobs are one of its many resources.
For example there are lot of Software Bodyshops that are entirely staffed by H1-Bs, which form the largest segment of H1-B applications. No company above 50 employees should have a work force above 25% as H1-Bs. This should be strictly enforced. Stricter set of rules on H1-B and L-1 should be imposed on Non-American companies that are more likely to grab H1-B quota with their local work force.
Since all H1-Bs are termed "experts" or "extra-ordinary skilled" there should be some form of salary regulation.
so if a company can find a young engineer for market or under market wage, they can also expect that employee to stick around which is a huge boon for any company.
for 6 - 8 years ! That is the delight of employer.
You may not like to hear this but it is the truth. More importantly it means our company can grow - as a US company in a US economy rather then giving marketshare away to a an overseans company. Finally, it also means that I can hire the very best and brightest - to live and work in the US. This only helps US companies and economies.
Btw, we pay US wages. There is NO drop in wages for an H-1B candidate and in fact we pay the same for a US citizen employee - when we can find them.
Think about this before you respond. Yes I'm sure some of you think your job has been stolen but I don't know of a single case where this is true. In any event it wouldn't make any sense unless we were paying 50% of US wages and that isn't the case.
Again, if you are qualified we will hire you - we just can't seem to find you right now. And if we didn't have the H-1B employees we would be crippled as a company.
We're only bringing in what we can't find here, they're paid what anyone else would be paid, and if we can't hire them we'll have to start looking elsewhere. If enough of that happens then sooner or later all the good jobs we have here now and hare trying to hire these people for will be in some other country where the people that couldn't get in went.
products to be used for unethical purposes, perhaps it would be
better if they were paralyzed.
Then again, maybe you should lift a finger to recruit from the
over 1M unemployed and under-employed US science and tech
workers.
Of course, we know of several cases in which US workers were
displaced by less capable guest-workers. The first I heard of
was at Siemens in Lake Mary Florida, where they required the US
workers to train the L-1 workers as a condition for receiving a
severance package. Even Indian workers, here on H-1B visas,
who later attained citizenship suddenly found that recruiters no
longer wanted to talk with them.
Sona Shah demonstrated this well last year before a
congressional committee. She showed a slide of a job ad, used
her cellular phone to call a recruiter who was all eager... until
they learned she is a citizen, at which point they said, over the
speakers in the hearing room, that they were only interested in
hiring via the H-1B program.
For example, my company has 22 employees and one H1-B employee. That could hardly be considered abuse of the system. That employee is paid well (over 100K) just like the other domestic engineers.
My single H1-B employee won the H1-B lottery today (the process used by the immigration office) and is now one of the chosen 65,000 which makes be very happy! However, it bothers me that large companies can corner large blocks of applications.
If I didn't have the ability to obtain this H1-B for my employee, I would have to contract him in his home country. While I am sure some of you dumb redneck isolationists think this is a good idea, I would rather have those tax dollars at work in America.
I guess if we restrict then enough the other products will follow suite too.
server is completely managed in Microsoft's India office. I guess
if we restrict then enough the other products will follow suite
too."
Thank you for demonstrating the low quality of work done in
India.
I say this because my boss is a immigrant and I have not seen anyone more intelligent and hardworking than him. He creates jobs for the 100s of us Americans who work for the company.
work visas should be auctioned so that only the most valuable
lights could immigrate (in contrast with the H-1B program's
hundreds of thousands of mediocre). This is why a monthly
auction to the top 83 to 167 bidders would be best.
But applicants should also have to pass and pay the costs for a
background investigation due to efforts of terrorists and spies to
infiltrate. Of course, employers and charities would be welcome
to help cover, on a non-refundable basis, those costs (i.e. they
couldn't take it out of the immigrant's pay).
Companies are going to keep plugging away at this H1 visa thing until the people cave and stop fighting.
Sergey brin the story of America is the immigrant.
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/india/article.cfm?articleid=4179
52 percent of all start up companies are started foriegn born individuals
IT programmers write programs to automate the tasks that were done manually before. So when a bunch of programmers made Turbo tax, a lot of accountants lost their job; after I installed a word processor on my computer, i no longer needed my typist; when people use more and more email to send messages, the postal department may hire less postal workers.
To prevent unemployment in US, the federal government should ban all IT programmers. Similarly it should ban all the ATM machines, all self checkouts at the grocery stores and supermarkets, all websites selling products online, etc etc etc...
The moral of the story is that it all depends on what perspective you are looking at it from.
charges of nearly a buck for something that costs 15 cents to
do.
According to their "market forces" they always trumpet, our salaries should be going up. God know the ceo salaries are! I've watched the salaries go down every year for the last 10 years. Now that I'm a senior engineer, I'm getting way less (adjusting for inflation) than the senior engineers back when I started.
fields, but that's partly because of the huge down-sizings.
http://www.kermitrose.com/images/EarningsPerHour.jpg
Starting salaries haven't been so good:
http://www.kermitrose.com/images/NACE.jpg
Employment has been stagnant since shortly after the beginning
of the depression in 2000 (notice also the dip in 1998):
http://www.kermitrose.com/images/SWProdDev.jpg
Unemployment by occupational group is also interesting:
http://www.kermitrose.com/images/
USUnEmpRateByOccMonthly.jpg
http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Employment
But we're producing plenty of US citizen science and tech
workers in the USA:
http://www.kermitrose.com/images/NCESTotalBach.jpg
http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Edu
Even if you don't count the millions unemployed and under-
employed.
The h-1b program is taking more jobs away from the U.S. each year, than it could ever hope to bring in.
This program is in bad need of a complete reform, before it guts this countries IT industry.
Don't believe me, read up, here are the links:
Businessweek: The h-1b program is a "conduit to offshoring"
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/feb2007/db20070208_553356.htm
MSNBC: "Work visas may work against the U.S."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17048048/
Bill gates doesn't give XXXX about the U.S. worker, read up on how he sticks it to his own Microsoft employees:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2007/03/30/EDGRJN7CFB1.DTL
70% (or more) of the 65,000 available h-1b visas are being used by foreign offshore outsourcing companies. These foreign companies are using the Visas to train their workers in the U.S., and then ship them back home to continue the IT offshore outsourcing process.
Companies are using the h-1b program to help them setup foreign offices, development groups of all sizes, and divisions. H-1b workers are paid 20% less than their U.S. citizen counterpart. That's less tax money, then the company sends the worker back to India (usually), where he doesn't pay a dime in U.S. taxes, and proceeds to build a offshore development group that further removes U.S. jobs.
Companies such as Microsoft and Oracle are actually just trying to escape the high infrastructure cost (8 trillion dollars worth) of the United States. Half an engineer's salary is taxes. Taxes that pay Social Security to help our senior citizens, that keep the roads up, that assist our farmers, and taxes that are being used to defend the rest of the world from harm.
The U.S. department of labor has stated that companies can hire an h-1b worker over a U.S. citizen, even if the U.S. worker is just as qualified/capable as the foreign worker.
In open testimony before the U.S. congress, a job applicant called an agency to see if she could apply for a programming job on the east coast. The congress members were shocked to hear that the agency would not consider her for a job, because she could not be sponsored with an h-1b visa. The George Bush Department of Labor took no action against the company, even though most americans would consider this a clear act of bigotry against the U.S. citizen.
And the reason is clear, most h-1b visas are used to offshore U.S. jobs, not to create U.S. jobs.
All over the IT workplace, U.S. citizens are facing open discrimination, simply because their point of origin happens to be the United States. There is an onslought of bigotry being perpetrated by industry against the working U.S. citizen.
So even if you complained about your company prefering to hire a h-1b workers, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court. And Even if you applied for a job and were the best candidate, it could "legally" be taken by a worker from another country, and you "the american citizen" can stay on the unemployment line.
See available webform to contact your Congressman or Senator here
http://capwiz.com/aila2/issues/alert/?alertid=9221981&type=CO
http://www.outsourcecongress.org/
- No Abuse Here
- by suyts April 5, 2007 3:51 PM PDT
- Is someone going to try and tell me that there were 100,000 tech jobs available in the U.S. but no qualified applicants? BS. Call your congressman and ask/demand that we enforce our laws. In one day??? Don't get me wrong, I've no problem with importing people that want to integrate and follow the American dream, however, if American companies can't put Americans first, then they need to go away. I firmly believe, and Americans have shown, that there is not one thing that Americans cannot accomplish. Let's start offshoring these traitorous CEO's and managers. If we start giving real prison time for these a-holes for those that violate the laws then we wouldn't have to have these discussions. 100,000 in one day my as*.
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- And think of all those loans
- by lavacentral April 5, 2007 4:51 PM PDT
- I graduated from UCSD, top university with a GPA of 3.5. I had 2.5 years of work experience in my field. I also had Tens of thousands of dollars in federal and Bank Loans. And yet I have to compete with someone who is willing to get lower wages, Zero loans to pay back and I can tell you definitely that there is not a single university in India or Pakistan or China that can match the education in University of California system.
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Showing 1 of 2 pages (167 Comments)It took me 3 months to get a job after sending close to 150 resumes out. Yet these companies are hungry for 100s of thousands workers from india/china/pakistan etc. Nicely done.