April 4, 2007 2:11 PM PDT

Does H-1B surge mean cap should be raised?

This week's record-setting avalanche of applications for H-1B visas is undeniable. Now in dispute: what caused it and what should happen next.

On Tuesday, the U.S. government announced that this year's limit on H-1B visas had already been reached after only one day, the first time in history the annual cap had been reached so quickly. Since 1990, American employers have relied on the visas to hire skilled foreign workers for up to six years, often in computer- or engineering-related jobs.

The reason for the surge matters: Congress is expected to hold hearings on raising the limit later this year, and will surely question why the quota was reached so instantly. Technology companies argue the surge is further proof that the quota must be increased, while opponents say there are enough Americans to do those jobs already.

High-tech companies say the visas are critical to filling voids in their workforces and have been lobbying for Congress to raise the cap, which currently stands at 65,000 (but climbs just above 100,000 when a number of exemptions are taken into account). Critics say the program has depressed U.S. wages and put qualified Americans out of jobs.

For lawyers who counsel clients on how to apply for H-1Bs, the record-high 150,000 applications reportedly received by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services by Monday afternoon--the first day it began accepting them--was a natural response to what they said is an ever-narrowing window in which visas remain available.

"The fact that industry is now capable of putting through a staggering number of H-1B applications in just one day is the best illustration yet of why we need an H-1B quota."
--John Miano, Programmers Guild founder

For the fourth straight year, the cap was reached before the start of the next fiscal year. Two years ago, USCIS determined in early August that it had received enough applications to meet the cap for the next year's batch of the work permits. Last year, the agency had stopped accepting new applications by late May--less than two months after it opened the application window.

"Many people figured out that, if the pattern continued, the 'run out' day would be the first day that anyone could file--namely, April 2," said Crystal Williams, deputy director of programs for the American Immigration Lawyers Association.

Fear of missing out on the visas likely prompted many employers to "frontload" their applications rather than spreading them out over many weeks or months, said Peter Roberts, co-head of the immigration practice at the Stamford, Conn.-based law firm McCarter & English.

"I know that was the advice to my clients: You can't run the risk of waiting and then not being able to employ this individual," said Roberts, whose firm mostly works with companies in the financial services and manufacturing industry.

Programmers Guild founder John Miano had a different take. The run on the visas is nothing short of "an organized campaign to exhaust the quota as quickly as possible," motivated by the hope that Congress will be persuaded that more visas are necessary, he said.

That's precisely the wrong approach, said Miano, whose group supports restrictions on H-1Bs in an effort to combat perceived displacement of American workers and depression of salaries.

"The fact that industry is now capable of putting through a staggering number of H-1B applications in just one day is the best illustration yet of why we need an H-1B quota," he said. "Industry has proved it will not be self-policing when it comes to H-1B numbers."

Unemployment low in tech

High-tech industry advocates of additional H-1B visas said their companies are in a particularly tight spot because U.S. unemployment levels in the computer science and engineering fields are far lower than the nationwide average while the number of job openings is growing, leaving firms little choice but to recruit foreigners.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics figures cited by Oracle vice president Robert Hoffman, the unemployment rate in February 2007 was 2 percent for computer and mathematical occupations and 1.7 percent for architecture and engineering occupations. That's far below the 4.9 percent national rate, although it's about equal to the 1.9 percent rate for all "management, professional and related occupations." Meanwhile, the Department of Labor estimates that the number of new jobs created in math and computer science fields will have grown to about 100,000 by 2014.

"This tells us there is significant demand and a shrinking pool of qualified professionals," Hoffman said.

The employment rates present a serious challenge to American high-tech firms, particularly in combination with recent statistics showing that more than half of advanced degrees in engineering and technology at U.S. universities are awarded to foreigners, Hoffman said.

The timing of this year's shortage is particularly troubling because it occurred long before a new class of international university students received their U.S.-based degrees, said Kara Calvert, director of government relations for the Information Technology Industry Council. ITIC's members include Apple, Dell, Cisco Systems, Intel and Microsoft.

"Our companies cannot submit applications for prospective recruits until they have a degree in hand, which means this new crop of talented individuals may be forced to return home after receiving their U.S. degrees," she said. "Even more troubling is the real possibility that these U.S.-educated workers may begin innovating for our (overseas) competitors."

It's misguided to say there's a connection between the state of the U.S. labor market and the surging demand for H-1B visas, argued Ron Hira, a Rochester Institute of Technology professor and former board member of IEEE-USA, which lobbies for checks on the visa system on behalf of American engineers.

"The argument they make is these U.S. workers just don't exist, but you can't conclude that based on H-1B demand," said Hira, who has also authored a book and reports criticizing the H-1B system. "H-1B demand is completely decoupled from the labor market because they don't have to look for U.S. workers."

Only H-1B dependent companies--that is, when more than 15 percent of their workforces are H-1B holders--are expected certify that they aren't displacing qualified Americans, which means most companies can escape that requirement, Hira said. A new U.S. Senate bill would extend that requirement to all firms that employ foreigners through the visa program and attempts to give the Department of Labor more tools to enforce such rules.

Another reason why foreigners may be attractive to U.S. companies is that they are only required to pay them the "prevailing wage," which is often lower than the market wage, Hira said. The Senate bill would change the way "prevailing wage" is determined in a way designed to raise the minimum payout.

"We really don't know why there is so much demand for these H-1B workers," Hira said, "but there are good reasons why companies would prefer foreign workers over U.S. workers."

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167 comments

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Cannot find U.S. workers?
I always seem to hear this same excuse from the employers who prefer using foreign workers to fill "voids". Is it me or does it seem to me that they would rather hire someone from overseas than right here at home, even a small distance from them.

One reason for their decision to do so is that they are able to find a "secure source" of available people to fill open positions. One question that I always asked myself: Why? I beleive that there are people out there who want the job, but they do not want to give it to them, because of "financial reasons". Because they do not want to pay a domestic individual who is qualified for the same job, they would rather seek foreign individuals who will do it, but at a lower pay rate.

It is no wonder there are Americans having a hard time finding a job in a high tech field. They are qualified for the job, live within a given distance of the place, and can do the job effectively, and can have the required or exceeded experience under their belt. But denied the chance to do so because of the employer's refusal to pay the wages to hire them.
Posted by KZGY1024 (17 comments )
Reply Link Flag
And if You Think It's Bad In Industry ...
... just try to hire qualified tech workers into education where
salaries are already way lower to begin with. It's gotten to the
point where a visa application is almost a normal part of the
process. On top of that, some administrators will hire workers
for awhile and then let them go when "the visa doesn't come
through" - only to start the cycle over by hiring more people in
the same situation. Telling a boss in education that the salary
range they've approved for a position is way too low to get
qualified workers earns you a look like you've done something
wrong. One boss even told me that if I can't hire someone who's
well-qualified at the measley salary she had assigned to the
position, that she would reduce the position to a trainee position
with lower education and experience requirements - even
though the person would be responsible for a host of mission-
critical production enterprise-class systems.
Posted by GatesOfHell (210 comments )
Link Flag
Where are they then??
My tech company has plenty of job openings and about one in ten resumes are from US citizens and even fewer can pass a technical interview. Folks from India and China are better trained and more motivated. If US folks want tech jobs, then start taking college seriously and get qualified before applying. Employers prefer the best candidate. "Foreign" has nothing to do with it.
Posted by woggs123 (22 comments )
Link Flag
Read my post
You literally can't find qualified US citizens. That's a fact. It is surprisingly bleak.
Posted by J. Blow (193 comments )
Link Flag
US Department of Labor puts the unemployment at 1.7 percent for tech worker
US Department of Labor puts the unemployment at 1.7 percent for tech workers
Posted by davemesaaz (37 comments )
Link Flag
Simple Economics
The problem really has nothing to do with companies being ?willing? to pay workers ? it is simple economics. Every job has an inherent value, which is the amount of benefit the employer receives from hiring the individual. American workers, by and large, consider this value to be ?unfair?, and demand wages far higher than what the job is actually worth. Until our workforce begins to look at their worth to employers objectively and realistically, we will continue to drive more and more jobs overseas. Other than the occasional entry-level, new graduate job, these foreign workers are earning enough money to live very well in this country, to invest, and to send money back to relatives in their home country ? it is the unrealistic expectations, and often the outright greed, of the American workers that is to blame for the condition we find ourselves in today.
Posted by MikeeeC (43 comments )
Link Flag
Shut the Lid
I am sure that if the H1-B were another visa type for another
employment category the there would be the same result.
Whether it was for carpenters, mechanics, nurses, or farm
workers. People want to come here for a better life and wages
that are higher than in their own countries. We are destroying
our middle class and the lid needs to the shut, not at 100,000
but for skills in really short supply say around 1000. We should
not just provide the visas because Microsoft and others want
cheap labor.
Posted by georgiarat (254 comments )
Reply Link Flag
yep I agree
Microsoft does want cheap labor, they are cheap, I worked there, I
know. Majority of all the jobs go to Indians and now Chineese
immigrants, upps, is that the right terminology to use, since they
are H1-B Visas ?

BS!
Posted by rmiecznik (224 comments )
Link Flag
You make no sense
If there weren't demand we wouldnt need to raise the limit. Just how many carpentars, welders and mechanics applied? And how many hired? Probably ZERO. Duh. I mean shouldnt zippyrooter be trying to get cheap plumbers on H1B? Of freaking course not, because they can find them here. American companies try and hire here first of course. We only go outside and to such lengths when we're desperately in need of more talent and we can't find it.

The fact that the limit was hit in 1 day shows we have a serious demand for these works and if it isnt met it's only american companies that will be adverserely affected. And that's bad for all tech workers. We're going to fall behind other countries.
Posted by udontknowdik (8 comments )
Link Flag
to georgiarat
You sound very ignorant on the subject so let me educate you a little. Microsoft and other multi-billion dollar companies are pulling for a higher cap because they want the best workers. We are talking about Microsoft here, a company that has dominated to tech industry all over the world, a company that has changed the lives of Americans and revolutionized the technology world. Do you think that Microsoft has made billions and trillions of dollars because the hire the cheapest labor they can find? I highly doubt that. Who are you to argue with one of the most successful and wealthiest companies in the world, that is an aweful bold statement don't you think? Its almost sad... But i'd be happy to answer any other questions you have since you can't seem to think rationally. Everyone just needs to stop gripping and making themselves the victims because I am so tired of hearing we're americans and we can't get jobs blah blah blah... get off your butt and try harder!
Posted by Jsmith006 (11 comments )
Link Flag
Sergey Brin was a H-1B visa reciepent he displaced a job but created 1000
Productivity and not the cost of labor is what rules the day. Microsoft Intel etc. don't want people who will work for less... they want people who can produce more for less money.

In any industry there are two forces that compete with each other immigration drives wages down and innovation drives wages up.

For example when Sergey Brin came to the US on a H1-b visa he drove the price down. But when he founded google and innovated he wages for the best and brightest started to go up.

Sergey took the job of one American and directly created tens of thousands of Jobs. Indirectly he created thousands of more jobs through his labor saving devices which allowed people to work more efficiently.

Should the United States hire the best and brightest? Immigration was lax during 90,000. The after 9-11 there was a severe contraction of h-1b visas from 200,000 to 65,000 did this help the industry? No it just forced the big players to develop Research labs overseas.. The exact opposite of what we want in a society.

When a country sends its workers overseas they gain business skills and work experience they could not learn if they were in their home countries. If they return they have foriegn contacts which fosters trade with their home country.

Even if they never return it still helps the home country. When employers see the quality and the quantity of the labor force that comes to the US they are more likely to invest and establish operation in that country. This was certainly the case in India and China.
Posted by davemesaaz (37 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Sergey Brin is one in a million
Most of the other 999,999 H-1s do nothing for the economy except depress wages. If they were all like Sergey Brin the USA would be the technological giant it used to be and we techies would all be making a fortune.
Posted by yobtvoya (41 comments )
Link Flag
Stopping H1 should get India
If so, many of them will be forced to stay at home
( but , may be the outsourcing will accelerate and India will benefit more ).
Posted by pokiri (98 comments )
Link Flag
Schooled!
Nice one. Ya he created more jobs than there have been given H1B's in the past 5 years if you consider the trickle down economics of his creation! I make a mint from Adwords and so do a ton of other people. And that doesnt even count all his employees, or mine, etc.
Posted by udontknowdik (8 comments )
Link Flag
Brin was here before H-1B visas existed
"Sergey attended grade school in the U.S. at Paint Branch
Montessori School in Adelphi, Maryland, but he received further
education at home; his father Michael Brin, a professor in the
Department of Mathematics at the University of Maryland,
nurtured his interest in mathematics..."
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin" target="_newWindow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin</a>

He's a lot brighter than the average H-1B.

And so is Larry Page: "The son of Michigan State University
computer science professor Dr. Carl Victor Page, Larry's love of
computers began at age six. While following in his father's
footsteps in academics, he became an honors graduate from the
University of Michigan, where he earned a bachelor of science
degree in engineering, with a concentration on computer
engineering. During his time in Ann Arbor, Larry built an inkjet
printer out of Lego? bricks."
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.google.com/corporate/execs.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.google.com/corporate/execs.html</a>

Hmm, Shona Brown, however, hasn't had quite so stellar of a
career, having been a partner in the disreputable McKinsey.
Posted by BatmanG8 (74 comments )
Link Flag
Everybody is missing whole picture
American Engineers and association are arguing that H1b is taking away their job. But that wrong its outsourcing that taking away the job. If they cancel or reduce the cap for h1b, those job will be out sourced.

Politicians are missing the point that h1b is better than out sourcing, because at least h1bs pay tax to US government and contribute for medicare and social security fund.

MOST IMPORTANTLY THE ROOT CAUSE OF CURRENT H1 PROBLEM ARE OUT SOURCING COMPANIES. They take job away from US to offshore, then they fill up h1b cap to send their engineers here to work for cheap. I do not think American companies can fill up 150000 h1b in a day that too in middle of semester. MOST APPLICATIONS ARE FROM OFFSHORE COMPANIES.

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indian_IT_firms_in_rush_for_H1-B_lottery/articleshow/1825429.cms" target="_newWindow">http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indian_IT_firms_in_rush_for_H1-B_lottery/articleshow/1825429.cms</a>

My 2 cents following changes will be most beneficial for US economy and its technological advances.
- Restrict H1b only to applicants who have American University Degree ( This will bring in more foreign student, more research fund and more intellectual minds)
- Increase H1b slowly if required (If most of the US graduates want to stay in US and work they should be allow to it will help boost economy and increase technological advances)
Posted by syapru (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
You are absolutely right
And what's more, they get people they can exploit because they want a Green Card, so they work them way more hours than 40 a week, and they don't leave because they will put up with almost any indignity to be able to stay in the USA. I know. I had an H1 myself. Now I have a Green Card. I don't feel like I am taking an "American" job away due to cheap labor, because I am far from cheap labor. Ironically, I am against the H-1 program because it is being exploited as you described. In my H-1 days, 10 years ago, it was actually a decent program. As it is currently run, the H-1 program AND offshoring both put pressure on prevailing wages, but offshoring is the bigger culprit due to exchange rates and vastly different living standards in the countries that are the current pool for outsourcing. However, the H-1 puts pressure on the US wages because you can make your H-1's work 12, 14, 16 hour days, and over weekends, without complaint (they fear losing their jobs and being kicked out of the USA) and therefore get them "half-price".
Like Alan Kay said, "Most software today is very much like an Egyptian pyramid with millions of bricks piled on top of each other, with no structural integrity, but just done by brute force and thousands of slaves."

We know who the "slaves" are, don't we?
Posted by yobtvoya (41 comments )
Link Flag
Bulls Eye. I agree.
you hit the nail on the head.
Posted by kev mitnick (5 comments )
Link Flag
No Immigration caps all of the World Researchers would come here.
Think about it the smartest individuals want to come to the country where they are rewarded the most. The United States has the worlds largest economy.

We have by far the best Universities. Only 2 out of the top 20 are not American.

Its kind of a crazy idea to think that we can have a society where there are two many smart people.

Maybe if we loosened the labor market the way that we financial and capital markets the Venture Capitalist would invest in local companies. Instead of Chinese companies like Baidu and Lenovo.
Posted by davemesaaz (37 comments )
Link Flag
You are damn right
I've got a company with 50 people and i've many times considering just moving it overseas. It's too hard to get people here. This H1B limit is just another nail in the coffin of american companies.

So be careful what you wish for. You may just get it.
Posted by udontknowdik (8 comments )
Link Flag
body shopping led to H-1B led to off-shoring
And they all feed back to facilitate each other.

Ron Hira of Rochester Institute of Technology examined it and
concluded (as many of us already suspected) that H-1B visas are
used to facilitate off-shoring. The initial H-1B (or L-1) visa-
holder takes back knowledge for use when setting up the off-
shore shop. Subsequent guest-workers are used to facilitate
communications and additional knowledge transfer.

NSF drove for the huge increase in foreign student recruiting
and visas in order to produce more PhDs so that compensation
could be driven down. They explicitly stated that this was their
goal. They were also aware that the tilted economic incentives
would drive more US citizens away from these graduate
programs.

The result across the board has been undermining careers of US
citizens from university to senior level experienced
professionals.

The solution is to decrease the numbers of student visas (f), and
work visas (E, H, J, L...) to numbers low enough for the
government to properly handle the background investigations
and paperwork processing, and to numbers that will restore the
economic benefits for US citizens to get degrees in science and
tech fields, including master's and doctor's degrees. This will
also discourage off-shoring, decrease knowledge transfer, and
hence erosion of the USA's cutting edge lead, and encourage US
firms to recruit and hire US citizens.

Even if we shut the doors completely for the next 10 years, as
Frosty Wooldridge has proposed, or 18 years, we would still not
have brought back into full utilization the huge pool of under-
tapped US citizen science and tech talent.

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Edu" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Edu</a>

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Visas" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Visas</a>

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Employment" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Employment</a>
Posted by BatmanG8 (74 comments )
Link Flag
Stop all H1-B Visas
Because of these H1-B Visas it took me almost 3 years to find a job in the tech field after graduating college. I had high GPA and every interview, "Im sorry but we have to full fill the government diversity of employment". First the caucasian man gets left out and now its all American born citizens that gets the bottom of the barrel jobs.

As my father (one of the few steel workers the U.S. has) says if one country stops shipping steel to the U.S. we will be third world in a matter of months because we don't have a modern steel mill in production.

This goes the same in the tech field, keep importing people the American citizen will be minority.
Posted by nightstar (23 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Then one needs to stop outsourcing too
If H1B is stopped and outsourcing is banned, then
the companies will be forced to find and train ( if the ones do not meet requirement ) sons of the soil. But i believe , that scenario is not going to happen.
Posted by pokiri (98 comments )
Link Flag
I don't believe that!
Technical Interviews do not prove anything. I'm not good at technical interviews at all. That is the issue with today's American companies. Everything they ask for today they want it done 5 months ago and don't want to spend the money for the extra research that I like to do. I strive for perfect not just a product that "works". This is where the true test comes in. I run circles around our H1-B's.
Posted by nightstar (23 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Around most H-1's, anyway...
I'm an ex-H-1 and I run circles around many people, H-1 or otherwise. You're generalizing when you talk about H-1's... a small minority are pretty good. I think it has everything to do with caring about what you do and putting enough effort into it to make a well-crafted product. I don't strive for perfection, because it is unattainable in the environment in which I work, for various reasons. I *do* strive for excellence, though, and usually achieve that goal.
That being said, I agree with you totally that technical interviews don't prove much. They mostly prove that you are good at doing technical interviews, and don't show your work ethic, if you work well in a team, if you care about quality, or how well you learn new things that are "outside the box". I'll bet that even if something is not on your resume, you would be able to RTFM and get up to speed in a short time. Most technical interviewers don't understand this.
Posted by yobtvoya (41 comments )
Link Flag
Better Education, Free economy
As long as schools downplay science, evolution and math coz it aint "sexy" you will need foreigners for IT and as engineers
The best and the brightest come to America, if you are turning them away then you are loosing the competative advantage that has built this great country.
I am in the IT field and can tell you from first hand expirience there is a shortage of US workers. There is also an overal shortage of skilled people. the H1B has kept the economy humming for the last 8 years - anyone who ignores that is playing the fool
Posted by saggicb (5 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Huh?
I am in the IT field too, and I believe the shortage of American IT workers (if it exists) is because many of them have given up on the IT career path (and retired or moved to greener pastures) due to unfair competition from cheap foreign workers, and new college students are understandably steering clear of IT and engineering careers because of the exploitation that is going on.
Who's the fool?
Posted by yobtvoya (41 comments )
Link Flag
Agree, US Education system is inferior to European or Asian systems
Our company does not need average/sub average engineers, We need the best engineers to compete in this global market, otherwise we will have to shut down and erase some jobs for quite a few american citizens. We don't need mediocrity. Our competitors should have plenty of that!!!

The so called "advanced math" that they teach here in high school is teached in the 5th grade in europe.

Let's not talk about work ethic ...
Posted by zolyfarkas (20 comments )
Link Flag
USA schools actually do better than Europe
In international tests, US-born students come in second only to
Singapore in math, science &#38; tech.

However, we have huge numbers of 1st generation illegal aliens
and immigrants who don't do so well. They bring down the
averages.

But I agree that too many US schools and teachers seem to go
out of their ways to make math classes an exercise in torture. By
9th grade I had developed a game of not paying attention during
class so that I'd have the challenge of figuring everything out
during the tests. (And while I'm on the topic, why don't those
lazy mathematicians get around to defining division by zero,
FCOL! Get to work ya bums! B-)
Posted by BatmanG8 (74 comments )
Link Flag
My fellow americans stand up and fight
While protecting Citizens is among the most important roles of government, the U.S. Congress has knowingly violated the liberty and property interests that 500,000 Americans had in their chosen profession by allowing them to be displaced by foreign workers.

The enemy is corporate America who along with our congress is giving away America's jobs in the name of profit, and profit only. Meaning cheap labor

If we Americans do not take a stand, America will turn into a 3rd world cesspool. America's resources are for Americans first, and jobs are one of its many resources.
Posted by mptock (3 comments )
Reply Link Flag
You agree too?
As in one of my posts for this story you seem to agree too. Americans are becoming the minority here, no matter what job target you look at. I give Japan, China, and Europe 10 years. In 10 years comparing their economy with ours will be like comparing ours with Russia in the current day. Economy does not stand a chance.
Posted by nightstar (23 comments )
Link Flag
my doodles
Lack of enforcement by Immigration and Labor has led to current situation. Shops based out of homes are applying for H1s. It has turned to scam, there should be some sort of quota or limit system that would limit the number of visas to a company.

For example there are lot of Software Bodyshops that are entirely staffed by H1-Bs, which form the largest segment of H1-B applications. No company above 50 employees should have a work force above 25% as H1-Bs. This should be strictly enforced. Stricter set of rules on H1-B and L-1 should be imposed on Non-American companies that are more likely to grab H1-B quota with their local work force.

Since all H1-Bs are termed "experts" or "extra-ordinary skilled" there should be some form of salary regulation.
Posted by YankeePoodle (785 comments )
Link Flag
I won't fight for you
You are the cause that is moving America to the doomsday. Talk and competition and free market economy. No begging please!
Posted by debasisg (108 comments )
Link Flag
employee stability
Another point that is commonly overlooked in regards to the H1b issue is that H1B employee's find it difficult to switch jobs.

so if a company can find a young engineer for market or under market wage, they can also expect that employee to stick around which is a huge boon for any company.
Posted by jumble2jumble (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
That is half true
H1Bs can switch jobs. But many of them don't to because most probably the green card process need to be started over. This makes them bonded to the company. Many end up sticking to the same employer
for 6 - 8 years ! That is the delight of employer.
Posted by pokiri (98 comments )
Link Flag
It's called indentured servitude
And it's horribly exploitative. You have to put up with things no decent human being should have to deal with.
Posted by yobtvoya (41 comments )
Link Flag
Let them in - as many as possible.
If you are saying that we should stop the H-1B applicants you don't know what you are talking about. I have personally hired tens of employees during the last few years and you simply can't find enough qualified US citizens with CS/Math/EE backgrounds. Our company would be paralyzed without the H-1B employees. That is a fact. I would love to hire more US citizens - if I could find any.

You may not like to hear this but it is the truth. More importantly it means our company can grow - as a US company in a US economy rather then giving marketshare away to a an overseans company. Finally, it also means that I can hire the very best and brightest - to live and work in the US. This only helps US companies and economies.

Btw, we pay US wages. There is NO drop in wages for an H-1B candidate and in fact we pay the same for a US citizen employee - when we can find them.

Think about this before you respond. Yes I'm sure some of you think your job has been stolen but I don't know of a single case where this is true. In any event it wouldn't make any sense unless we were paying 50% of US wages and that isn't the case.

Again, if you are qualified we will hire you - we just can't seem to find you right now. And if we didn't have the H-1B employees we would be crippled as a company.
Posted by J. Blow (193 comments )
Reply Link Flag
same here
I work with small-mid size associations. IT staff salary is around 60k to 80k. But the resumes we get are complete jokes. People who have online degrees, little experience, yet they think they should get over 100k??? I mean, we don't expect to see 20 year vets wanting to work at a small/mid size non profit, but you would think there must be a decent pool of tech workers with under 5 years experience who would work for 60k to 80k?
Posted by wangbang (155 comments )
Link Flag
You speak the truth
I share your experiences 100%. I could have written exactly the same thing. And I'm sure thousands of other companies share our problems.

We're only bringing in what we can't find here, they're paid what anyone else would be paid, and if we can't hire them we'll have to start looking elsewhere. If enough of that happens then sooner or later all the good jobs we have here now and hare trying to hire these people for will be in some other country where the people that couldn't get in went.
Posted by udontknowdik (8 comments )
Link Flag
Maybe your company SHOULD be paralyzed
So many firms these days are engaged in activities and making
products to be used for unethical purposes, perhaps it would be
better if they were paralyzed.

Then again, maybe you should lift a finger to recruit from the
over 1M unemployed and under-employed US science and tech
workers.

Of course, we know of several cases in which US workers were
displaced by less capable guest-workers. The first I heard of
was at Siemens in Lake Mary Florida, where they required the US
workers to train the L-1 workers as a condition for receiving a
severance package. Even Indian workers, here on H-1B visas,
who later attained citizenship suddenly found that recruiters no
longer wanted to talk with them.

Sona Shah demonstrated this well last year before a
congressional committee. She showed a slide of a job ad, used
her cellular phone to call a recruiter who was all eager... until
they learned she is a citizen, at which point they said, over the
speakers in the hearing room, that they were only interested in
hiring via the H-1B program.
Posted by BatmanG8 (74 comments )
Link Flag
Keep it simple
Why not allow US companies a simple quota of H1-Bs depending upon how many Americans they employ?

For example, my company has 22 employees and one H1-B employee. That could hardly be considered abuse of the system. That employee is paid well (over 100K) just like the other domestic engineers.

My single H1-B employee won the H1-B lottery today (the process used by the immigration office) and is now one of the chosen 65,000 which makes be very happy! However, it bothers me that large companies can corner large blocks of applications.

If I didn't have the ability to obtain this H1-B for my employee, I would have to contract him in his home country. While I am sure some of you dumb redneck isolationists think this is a good idea, I would rather have those tax dollars at work in America.
Posted by AllenDre (3 comments )
Reply Link Flag
In case you didn't know.
In case you didn't know. Whole of windows XP and windows server is completely managed in Microsoft's India office.

I guess if we restrict then enough the other products will follow suite too.
Posted by kev mitnick (5 comments )
Reply Link Flag
is that why windows is so crappy?
Thats good to know. From what I hear Microsoft copied MOST things in windows from apple and yet you say it comes from India. Where is the innovation. And besides, Windows components are still crappy products compared to other products such as mozilla firefox, google, linux etc.
Posted by lavacentral (61 comments )
Link Flag
Low quality of work in India
"In case you didn't know. Whole of windows XP and windows
server is completely managed in Microsoft's India office. I guess
if we restrict then enough the other products will follow suite
too."

Thank you for demonstrating the low quality of work done in
India.
Posted by BatmanG8 (74 comments )
Link Flag
one in million..here are more...
what about Intel..some of the founders of intel chip were immigrants. what about microsoft ? some of the current key architects of windows and office are immigrants. what about sun microsystems ? some immigrants were among its founders. what about the countless new start ups that immigrants open up in US ? Although a lot of them may just be cheap labor but then a lot of them are brilliant brains too.

I say this because my boss is a immigrant and I have not seen anyone more intelligent and hardworking than him. He creates jobs for the 100s of us Americans who work for the company.
Posted by kev mitnick (5 comments )
Reply Link Flag
quality != numbers
That's exactly why visas should be restricted and expensive, why
work visas should be auctioned so that only the most valuable
lights could immigrate (in contrast with the H-1B program's
hundreds of thousands of mediocre). This is why a monthly
auction to the top 83 to 167 bidders would be best.

But applicants should also have to pass and pay the costs for a
background investigation due to efforts of terrorists and spies to
infiltrate. Of course, employers and charities would be welcome
to help cover, on a non-refundable basis, those costs (i.e. they
couldn't take it out of the immigrant's pay).
Posted by BatmanG8 (74 comments )
Link Flag
Same old story...
The industry just wants to pay people less to work... foreign workers work cheap because they are desperate - and local workers get the shaft.

Companies are going to keep plugging away at this H1 visa thing until the people cave and stop fighting.
Posted by kylegas (81 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Immigration = innovation Einstein Warner Brother and Sergey Brin
Immigrants have always innovated Einstein and the German physicists The Warner brothers and their establishement of the movie business.

Sergey brin the story of America is the immigrant.

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/india/article.cfm?articleid=4179" target="_newWindow">http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/india/article.cfm?articleid=4179</a>
52 percent of all start up companies are started foriegn born individuals
Posted by davemesaaz (37 comments )
Link Flag
You are ignorant
You have zero grasp of the real issues here. Can you even provide 1 example of where this has happened? Or are you pulling this from the same place your head is right now?
Posted by udontknowdik (8 comments )
Link Flag
Aint that the truth
Word to the mutha. Seriously anyone who has run a company and tried to hire would know exactly why we need more H1B's.
Posted by udontknowdik (8 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Should US also ban IT programmers?
I see an interesting conversation going on here. So just fot the sake of arguement, let me add this...

IT programmers write programs to automate the tasks that were done manually before. So when a bunch of programmers made Turbo tax, a lot of accountants lost their job; after I installed a word processor on my computer, i no longer needed my typist; when people use more and more email to send messages, the postal department may hire less postal workers.

To prevent unemployment in US, the federal government should ban all IT programmers. Similarly it should ban all the ATM machines, all self checkouts at the grocery stores and supermarkets, all websites selling products online, etc etc etc...

The moral of the story is that it all depends on what perspective you are looking at it from.
Posted by cary1 (924 comments )
Reply Link Flag
ban ATM machines!
I'll eagerly go along with that. They're quite the scam with
charges of nearly a buck for something that costs 15 cents to
do.
Posted by BatmanG8 (74 comments )
Link Flag
straight from the horses mouth...
"This tells us there is significant demand and a shrinking pool of qualified professionals," Hoffman said.

According to their "market forces" they always trumpet, our salaries should be going up. God know the ceo salaries are! I've watched the salaries go down every year for the last 10 years. Now that I'm a senior engineer, I'm getting way less (adjusting for inflation) than the senior engineers back when I started.
Posted by dj.mo (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
some IT pay has gone up
Some IT compensation has gone up more in IT than in other
fields, but that's partly because of the huge down-sizings.

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/images/EarningsPerHour.jpg" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/images/EarningsPerHour.jpg</a>

Starting salaries haven't been so good:

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/images/NACE.jpg" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/images/NACE.jpg</a>

Employment has been stagnant since shortly after the beginning
of the depression in 2000 (notice also the dip in 1998):

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/images/SWProdDev.jpg" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/images/SWProdDev.jpg</a>

Unemployment by occupational group is also interesting:

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/images/" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/images/</a>
USUnEmpRateByOccMonthly.jpg

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Employment" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Employment</a>

But we're producing plenty of US citizen science and tech
workers in the USA:

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/images/NCESTotalBach.jpg" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/images/NCESTotalBach.jpg</a>

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Edu" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/jgoEconData.html#Edu</a>

Even if you don't count the millions unemployed and under-
employed.
Posted by BatmanG8 (74 comments )
Link Flag
70% of the 65,000 h-1b visas are used to outsource U.S. jobs
We don't need to raise the cap, we need to stop the abuse of foreign IT offshoring companies. Foreign IT offshoring companies are using 70% or more of the h-1b Visas, in order to train workers and ship them back home.

The h-1b program is taking more jobs away from the U.S. each year, than it could ever hope to bring in.

This program is in bad need of a complete reform, before it guts this countries IT industry.

Don't believe me, read up, here are the links:

Businessweek: The h-1b program is a "conduit to offshoring"

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/feb2007/db20070208_553356.htm" target="_newWindow">http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/feb2007/db20070208_553356.htm</a>

MSNBC: "Work visas may work against the U.S."

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17048048/" target="_newWindow">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17048048/</a>

Bill gates doesn't give XXXX about the U.S. worker, read up on how he sticks it to his own Microsoft employees:

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2007/03/30/EDGRJN7CFB1.DTL" target="_newWindow">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2007/03/30/EDGRJN7CFB1.DTL</a>

70% (or more) of the 65,000 available h-1b visas are being used by foreign offshore outsourcing companies. These foreign companies are using the Visas to train their workers in the U.S., and then ship them back home to continue the IT offshore outsourcing process.

Companies are using the h-1b program to help them setup foreign offices, development groups of all sizes, and divisions. H-1b workers are paid 20% less than their U.S. citizen counterpart. That's less tax money, then the company sends the worker back to India (usually), where he doesn't pay a dime in U.S. taxes, and proceeds to build a offshore development group that further removes U.S. jobs.

Companies such as Microsoft and Oracle are actually just trying to escape the high infrastructure cost (8 trillion dollars worth) of the United States. Half an engineer's salary is taxes. Taxes that pay Social Security to help our senior citizens, that keep the roads up, that assist our farmers, and taxes that are being used to defend the rest of the world from harm.

The U.S. department of labor has stated that companies can hire an h-1b worker over a U.S. citizen, even if the U.S. worker is just as qualified/capable as the foreign worker.

In open testimony before the U.S. congress, a job applicant called an agency to see if she could apply for a programming job on the east coast. The congress members were shocked to hear that the agency would not consider her for a job, because she could not be sponsored with an h-1b visa. The George Bush Department of Labor took no action against the company, even though most americans would consider this a clear act of bigotry against the U.S. citizen.

And the reason is clear, most h-1b visas are used to offshore U.S. jobs, not to create U.S. jobs.

All over the IT workplace, U.S. citizens are facing open discrimination, simply because their point of origin happens to be the United States. There is an onslought of bigotry being perpetrated by industry against the working U.S. citizen.
So even if you complained about your company prefering to hire a h-1b workers, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court. And Even if you applied for a job and were the best candidate, it could "legally" be taken by a worker from another country, and you "the american citizen" can stay on the unemployment line.
Posted by Jake Leone (143 comments )
Reply Link Flag
H-1B CRISIS SITUATION
HOW TO CONTACT CONGRESS REGARDING CURRENT H-1B CRISIS SITUATION:

See available webform to contact your Congressman or Senator here

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://capwiz.com/aila2/issues/alert/?alertid=9221981&#38;type=CO" target="_newWindow">http://capwiz.com/aila2/issues/alert/?alertid=9221981&#38;type=CO</a>
Posted by diamond110 (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
also use outsourcecongress.org
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.house.gov/writerep/" target="_newWindow">http://www.house.gov/writerep/</a>

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.outsourcecongress.org/" target="_newWindow">http://www.outsourcecongress.org/</a>
Posted by BatmanG8 (74 comments )
Link Flag
No Abuse Here
Is someone going to try and tell me that there were 100,000 tech jobs available in the U.S. but no qualified applicants? BS. Call your congressman and ask/demand that we enforce our laws. In one day??? Don't get me wrong, I've no problem with importing people that want to integrate and follow the American dream, however, if American companies can't put Americans first, then they need to go away. I firmly believe, and Americans have shown, that there is not one thing that Americans cannot accomplish. Let's start offshoring these traitorous CEO's and managers. If we start giving real prison time for these a-holes for those that violate the laws then we wouldn't have to have these discussions. 100,000 in one day my as*.
Posted by suyts (824 comments )
Reply Link Flag
And think of all those loans
I graduated from UCSD, top university with a GPA of 3.5. I had 2.5 years of work experience in my field. I also had Tens of thousands of dollars in federal and Bank Loans. And yet I have to compete with someone who is willing to get lower wages, Zero loans to pay back and I can tell you definitely that there is not a single university in India or Pakistan or China that can match the education in University of California system.



It took me 3 months to get a job after sending close to 150 resumes out. Yet these companies are hungry for 100s of thousands workers from india/china/pakistan etc. Nicely done.
Posted by lavacentral (61 comments )
Link Flag
Make the system work for U.S.A
1. H1B (at least at Microsoft) are not underpayd! We get indeed (as Bill Gates said) around 100.000/year (salary + benefits + bonuses) for start!
2. H1Bs that come in U.S.A. have a prety good financial situations in their own countries! I haven't come in U.S.A. for money! I did it because of the culture and to work at a great company!
3. I had other offer in U.K. (where my wife would have been able to work also) but I choosed U.S.A.
4. H1Bs have a lot of familial issues becasue their spouses can't work in U.S.A. :( I almost leaved U.S.A. ...
5. While other comanies are doing offsoring, Microsoft brings people in U.S.A. and we pay taxes here and we contribute to the health of this country!
6. If you don't wan't H1Bs in U.S.A. then companies will start migrating in other countries! What is better for U.S.A? having here H1B's or having Microsoft creating jobs in other countries?
7. Unemployment is under 2/100 in I.T., do you want to see unemployment under 2/10000 to understand how hard is for companies to find people to hire?
8. It is year 2007, please understand that the times have changed, if you want great software, you need people! Do you want to see Europe working on they OS&#38;software, and having sales of 10 bilion+ going to Europe and not U.S.A.? Are you sure this is the right thing for you?

9. I work@icrosoft and all that I said is my personal opinion, there is no corelation Microsoft' point of view. (so if you plan to sue, sue me, not Microsoft :))

Edi
Posted by EdisonNica (7 comments )
Reply Link Flag
H-1Bs not paid prevailing local market compensation
So, why didn't M$ sign up for the Engineering Job Fair at CSUS?
Why didn't they recruit at any of the California State University
campuses?
Why haven't I seen their job ads in the local Sunday paper?
Why is the Conference Board Help-Wanted advertising index
down around 30 (from a peak of over 100 in the late 1980s)?
Why haven't we seen any public apologies for M$'s perma-temp
scam, and why is their percentage of FTP emplyment still low?

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/" target="_newWindow">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/</a>
archive/2007/03/30/EDGRJN7CFB1.DTL

It's also interesting that M$ has so vigorously objected to the
weak Durbin bill, since they claim to be paying prevailing market
compensation already; all it requires them to do is make a
legally-binding statement that they are doing so.

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html" target="_newWindow">http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/" target="_newWindow">http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/</a>
CaseStudyH1BUnderpayment.txt
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.others.html#studies" target="_newWindow">http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.others.html#studies</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/pub/Immigration/" target="_newWindow">http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/pub/Immigration/</a>
ImmigAndComputerIndustry/Newsday.html
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/IEEESaysH1BsPaidLess.txt" target="_newWindow">http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/IEEESaysH1BsPaidLess.txt</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/PGH1BWageData.txt" target="_newWindow">http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/PGH1BWageData.txt</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/IntelH1BWages.txt" target="_newWindow">http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/IntelH1BWages.txt</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/Fed03.txt" target="_newWindow">http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/Fed03.txt</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/GAO03.txt" target="_newWindow">http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/GAO03.txt</a>
heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/GAOCompliance.txt
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/econ1998.html#19960522" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/econ1998.html#19960522</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.oig.dol.gov/public/reports/oa/pre_1998/06-96" target="_newWindow">http://www.oig.dol.gov/public/reports/oa/pre_1998/06-96</a>
-002-03-321s.htm
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/econ1998.html#19970410" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/econ1998.html#19970410</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.oig.dol.gov/public/media/testimony/19970410.pdf" target="_newWindow">http://www.oig.dol.gov/public/media/testimony/19970410.pdf</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/econ1998.html#19980512" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/econ1998.html#19980512</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.gao.gov/corresp/he98159r.pdf" target="_newWindow">http://www.gao.gov/corresp/he98159r.pdf</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/econ2000.html#20000531" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/econ2000.html#20000531</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.ccis-ucsd.org/PUBLICATIONS/wrkg12.PDF" target="_newWindow">http://www.ccis-ucsd.org/PUBLICATIONS/wrkg12.PDF</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO/HEHS-00-76" target="_newWindow">http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO/HEHS-00-76</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.tgassociates.com/Com-June2000.asp" target="_newWindow">http://www.tgassociates.com/Com-June2000.asp</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.gao.gov/new.items/he00076.pdf" target="_newWindow">http://www.gao.gov/new.items/he00076.pdf</a>

And they're not recruiting very industriously:
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200303.html#20030127" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200303.html#20030127</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.computerworld.co.nz/webhome.nsf/UNID/" target="_newWindow">http://www.computerworld.co.nz/webhome.nsf/UNID/</a>
D843B2E2C2F64947CC256CB8000B351D!opendocument

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200307.html#20030807" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200307.html#20030807</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.techsunite.org/news/techind/030806_gao.cfm" target="_newWindow">http://www.techsunite.org/news/techind/030806_gao.cfm</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200309.html#20030930" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200309.html#20030930</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.gao.gov/atext/d03883.txt" target="_newWindow">http://www.gao.gov/atext/d03883.txt</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03883.pdf" target="_newWindow">http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03883.pdf</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.nspe.org/etweb/10804viewpoint.asp" target="_newWindow">http://www.nspe.org/etweb/10804viewpoint.asp</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200510.html#20051220" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200510.html#20051220</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1305.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1305.html</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,0123-miano.shtm" target="_newWindow">http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,0123-miano.shtm</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/" target="_newWindow">http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/</a>
StartingSalaryErosionMS.txt
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200605.html#20060506" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200605.html#20060506</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back506.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back506.html</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/CIS.pdf" target="_newWindow">http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/CIS.pdf</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,0531-matloff.shtm" target="_newWindow">http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,0531-matloff.shtm</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.gao.gov/htext/d06901t.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.gao.gov/htext/d06901t.html</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO-06-901T" target="_newWindow">http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO-06-901T</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200606.html#20060625" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200606.html#20060625</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.colosseumbuilders.com/Guild/h1b/" target="_newWindow">http://www.colosseumbuilders.com/Guild/h1b/</a>
howtounderpay.htm
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200608.html#20060817" target="_newWindow">http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200608.html#20060817</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.ere.net/inside-recruiting/news/group-claims-" target="_newWindow">http://www.ere.net/inside-recruiting/news/group-claims-</a>
discrimination-targets-employers-recruiting-179486.asp
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.technudge.com/2006/08/illegal-insourcing.html" target="_newWindow">http://www.technudge.com/2006/08/illegal-insourcing.html</a>
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/news/immigration/" target="_newWindow">http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/news/immigration/</a>
index.html

And, of course, from our hosts:
<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://news.cbsi.com/Some+H" target="_newWindow">http://news.cbsi.com/Some+H</a>
-1B+workers+underpaid,+federal+auditors+say/2100
-1022_3-6087367.html
Posted by BatmanG8 (74 comments )
Link Flag
Not coming for money?
Thats just plain false. I had Phd's who worked with me from India that said that they got $200 per month in india and that was considered high pay. Here they were getting 20-40 fold more than that. Not counting the promise of a green card and bringing in more family members along.

Money may not be the only issue but its a great attraction.

If companies want to export jobs overseas, they are free to do so. Not like they aren't already doing it. They will do it regardless of the h1 quotas. Even if they had 1million people quota, they would still go overseas to build factories to pay them pennies on the dollar as wages.
Posted by lavacentral (61 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Not for money, for quality ...
Last 2 companies that I worked for were: a romanian company which was paying 500 EURO/month and a foreign one which was paying 1000 EURO/month. And I wasn't in the top payed city in Romania!

I could get back in Romnania and have around 2000$/month and have a better financial life there.

It is not about money! At least not for East-europeans!

Some companies don't want to go everseas, but you force them to do that if you don't allow them to bring people in U.S.A.!
Posted by EdisonNica (7 comments )
Link Flag
Both Money and Quality are Important
Plain truth is that corporations in the free market economy has to do everything it can to succeed. There is nothing wrong in it and that is the only way US can prosper in future.

Protectionists are short-sighted politicians who has little knowledge in economics or little willingness for a greater tomorrow.
Posted by debasisg (108 comments )
Link Flag
no really!
Salary is not really the big problem for high-tech companies. Finding qualified people is. If salary was really the problem, then we'd just hire people with only B.S degrees. But that doesn't work because it takes years for someone with just a B.S. degree ramp up to a sufficient point to do useful work. That is because nowadays the stuff that most high-tech companies do is much more advanced then what they teach you at an undergrad level. We perefer to hire people with advance degrees, and there are not many Americans with PhD or dual M.S degress.

In fact I was the only American at my school pursuing a PhD degree for during the time I was there. I have been to 50+ conferences, I can say that less than 1% of all the PhD students I met were Americans.

All the foreigners I know and I work with do have PhDs or at leat double M.S. degrees and they get paid a lot. The starting salary for them is 100K+, so don't tell me the companies hire foreigners due to lower wage, that is simply not true.

Before you go and blame foreigners for stealing the jobs you think you'd otherwise have stop and think. Do you have a PdD, do you have 15+ publications in top conferences, do you have at least a couple of patents. If no, you're simply not good enough. If you were to apply to the group I manage, I wouldn't even ask you for an interview
Posted by aeolussulvius (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
yes, really
"Salary is not really the big problem for high-tech companies.
Finding qualified people is. If salary was really the problem, then
we'd just hire people with only B.S degrees"

You're not conscientiously and industriously trying.

If quality was your concern, we've got quite a few US high school
students who can do a great job developing software given
proper guidance. Degrees are beside the point. (I note that the
people at Ask make the same hyper-credentialist mistake. Their
search may produce a lot of false positive junk to wade through,
but it was developed by people with PhDs, and that's supposed
to impress people. Pffft!)

Nikolaus Otto was a school drop-out grocery salesman and
invented the first practical internal combustion engine. The
Wright brothers never attended college. Neither Gates nor Jobs
nor Wozniak have advanced degrees, and all were college drop-
outs when they made their names, i.e. did their most notable
work.

The supply of PhDs is excessive, anyway, by design of the NSF.

If you've got a Nobel prize, at least a dozen significant US
patents, at least 5 decent books or 30 high-quality research
reports, then you're qualified for a telephone interview to see
whether you might qualify to apply for an H-1B visa. But then,
of course, you have to pass the background investigation and
pay for it.

IOW, if you can prove you truly are one of the few, the best and
brightest, we'll welcome you to the USA eagerly.

I've held a lot of PhD candidates' hands, nursed them through
the statistics they needed, helped uncounted profs do the same
and whip their books and journal articles into shape. I've helped
a US president, and a candidate or three for same, a governor, a
campaign manager for a senator, and super-heroes and their
associates and nemeses on the big screen come up with the
right thing to say. It takes a lot more than a PhD to impress me.
Posted by BatmanG8 (74 comments )
Link Flag
Academic vs. Vocational
As a person who has a BS and a MBA, I can say that a college education in technology in the US is next to useless.

There is too much emphasis on academic and not enough emphasis on vocational and business.

The CS program I attended, which was fully accredited, and extremely well regarded, provided a strong foundation in CS, but wasted an immense amount of hours on high end math and science. Add in the redundant core English, History, etc. (What exactly did we not learn in High School?), and you have well over 50% of your college education devoted to things other than your planned career.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting the value of the other subject, I've seen way too many technologists that were poor communicators or couldn't do simple algebra, but more emphasis is needed on the technology side using real world products, not 5 year old technology or just free open source products.

Most of CS graduates will end up working in a business environment, but are not even required to take a single business class. By contrast, they are required to take physics, chemistry or literature or philosophy to make them a more 'rounded' person.

By contrast, other countries, especially India are taking more focused, almost vocational approach that emphasizes an education focused on the needs of business, rather wasting a lot of time and money on subjects not germane to a person's future career.

If I am a hiring manager (and I am), which candidate am I going to look at? The person with a strong education in the tools used by my company or a person with a very general college education who may take up to a year to come fully up to speed? That's a no brainer, I'm gonna spend my dollars on the best candidate for the position, regardless of where they come from.

BTW, the MBA actually provided more value to my career than the BS, but it was stilll loaded with fluff.

The higher education system in the US better wake up and realize that their outmoded concepts of what constitutes a college education in technology will be a serious contributor to the fall of the US as a technology leader in the world.
Posted by adlyb1 (123 comments )
Reply Link Flag
CS != MIS
The purpose of CS is not to be vocational, but to provide the students with the principles that are needed to design, build, and analyze computer systems.

Now if you are saying that CS people don't understand business well enough to function in today's corporate environment, this may well be true. It also may be true that the best and brightest don't go into the MIS programs. But this is NOT what is being preached to Congress by Gates, etc. If there is truly a shortage of competent, capable, business-oriented MIS-trained Americans, this is what those who advocate H1B cap lifting should say. Instead, they are complaining that there aren't enough qualified people to do CS based on a presumed lack of academic talent, when it is clear that such people have been laid off and forced into other fields that recognize their acheivements, or pursue those fields prior to entering the workforce instead of CS.
Posted by CPCcurmudgeon (51 comments )
Link Flag
There are 400,000 few jobs in silicon valley since year 2000.
There are 400,000 few jobs in silicon valley
since year 2000.

I know people who have been withdrawing from
their home equity and 401Ks to live off of since
they are unemployed for around 6 years.

Most lost their jobs to H1Bs and L1s because
they get paid 1/2 as much as an American
engineer. Most had to train the immigrant
engineer
in the job before they were laid off. It
happened to me and most of my friends in
electronics. I would guess there is greater
than
60% unemployment in the over 45 year old
engineers in electronics. Yes, over half of the
over
45 year old engineers are out of work in
electronics. But they are not
counted as unemployed if you are out of work
more than 6 months.

These guys are brilliant engineers with 20 years
of work experience. Their only fault was they
were making more than an H1b would work for.
Posted by J1234f (3 comments )
Reply Link Flag
 

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