August 17, 2007 6:08 AM PDT

CIA, FBI computers used for Wikipedia edits

CIA, FBI computers used for Wikipedia edits
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WikiScanner, developed partly "to create minor public-relations disasters," shows that agencies edited Iraq, Guantanamo entries.

The story "CIA, FBI computers used for Wikipedia edits" published August 17, 2007 at 6:08 AM is no longer available on CNET News.

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Not surprising.
Ever since Bush proclaimed that the Pentagon is the new propaganda mouth piece to make killings around the world feel as warm and fuzzy as a tickle on a babies tummy.
Posted by inachu (966 comments )
Reply Link Flag
well...
Does that somehow make you feel worse that Clinton who was too busy getting BJs in the Oval Office to even pay attention to the killings going on around the world?

just askin
Posted by skeptik (590 comments )
Link Flag
Wiki wiki woo
With no control over the content, anyone can post whatever they wish, true or not. If you see the same misinformation enough times, it may seem more true than the truth and then you've got a bad entry.

It's an interesting idea, but no excuse for doing actual research into a subject. You might find more accurate information on a bathroom wall than on a wiki site.
Posted by Vegaman_Dan (6699 comments )
Reply Link Flag
It is odd. Isn't it?
I've always found the Wikipedia concept a bit odd. I think the creators thought that some sort of Darwinian process will ultimately lead to accuracy. But, that isn't necessarily so. Lay people often misstate that evolution always produces "better" offspring. (BTW, I'm a layman.) But, in fact, Darwin never said that. His idea was more in line with those with the most evolutionary advantages have a higher probability to pass their traits on to future generations. If being Don Knotts, (bless his soul), had an evolutionary advantage over being Arnold Schwarzenegger, then most of the population would be more like good ol' Don! Likewise, truth can easily be pushed aside for popular myth or urban legend. This applies to *any* Wikipedia article, not just the controversial ones.

The point is, before accepting some Wikipedia article as gospel, consider the source(s).
Posted by albertsoler (403 comments )
Link Flag
You miss the point
You only explain why wiki, in theory, shouldn't work.

However, it does work. Wiki is an incredibly popular site, that contains an incredible breadth of accurate information.

I can tell you as an expert in my field, database administration, that to an incredible level of detail they provide information accurately.

Does that mean the government cannot edit it, and temporarily displace a graphic or put out some propoganda? The article both shows that it can happen, and that it is also self correcting.
Posted by rdupuy11 (917 comments )
Link Flag
Liberal outrage
Oh the liberals are so angry that the people are using wikipedia who are not liberal... its not fair!
Posted by gerhard_schroeder (311 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Conservative Outrage
Oh the conservatives are so angry that the people are using wikipedia who are not conservative... it's not fair!

(So 20th Century.)
Posted by albertsoler (403 comments )
Link Flag
I'm not sure you quite understand...
Agents inside of the bureaocracy should not be partisan on the job.
Period. That's how bureaocracies work, and it's why we claim to
uphold "equal protection under the law". When we have
governmental agencies acting in political strategies, such as
influencing the information flow of private parties, we have a
problem. I'd say the same thing if CIA/FBI computers were used to
change articles on conservapedia or anything else.
Posted by aaronlancet (37 comments )
Link Flag
Actually conservatives don't use Wikipedia
they use Conservapedia:

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://www.conservapedia.com/" target="_newWindow">http://www.conservapedia.com/</a>

Most conservatives get banned from Wikipedia's Ultra-Liberal administrators, so they formed Conservapedia. Wikipedia is slanted way too far to the left, more left than Joseph Stalin.
Posted by Troll Hard (182 comments )
Link Flag
Government Proganda vs. Facts
Hey Rush, I looked up the word "facts" in the dictionary, and it has nothing to do with "liberal." But I see that facts don't matter to you. You would rather live in soviet russia where all information is controlled by the government.

What a tool you are.
Posted by R. U. Sirius (745 comments )
Link Flag
The people who know...
My take on this article is that the people who know the most about the subject (ie. those actually involved) are not supposed to post about it? That doesn't make any sense to me. I can see restrictions on advertising or inflammatory language, but facts are facts. And if they're not facts, why are they in an encyclopedia?
Posted by samkass (310 comments )
Reply Link Flag
WikiPedia is not an encyclopedia
The fact that they are bold enough to try to make that claim is repugnant. It has no oversight, and the average Joe who knows nothing about something can make changes. Its worthless as a professional or academic reference...so its pretty much worthless in general.
Posted by ittesi259 (696 comments )
Link Flag
Why is everything a conspiracy these days?
Who cares? Don't visit the site...
Posted by Kings X Rocks! (90 comments )
Reply Link Flag
conspiracy sells...
oh and by the way, look at what cnet is selling! Notice those ads? This article generates web traffic which generated profit.
No conspiracy, just motive.
Posted by skeptik (590 comments )
Link Flag
Bad, very, Very, VERY BAD.
Adding content to Wikipedia is one thing.
The fact that it was found that the government had REMOVED data from the wiki entries means they are engaged in active censorship of public news in direct contravention of the freedom of speech portions of the Constitution of the United States. As such, the persons responsible for said action have committed FELONY crimes. Depending on how accurate the WikiScanner program is, it may be possible to identify the computers and individuals in the CIA who actually performed the censorship; which means we can actually have targets for prosecution.
Posted by Dr_Zinj (625 comments )
Reply Link Flag
You're insane bro
This is wikipedia, not a reputable scholarly news source. If wikipedia is your primary news source then may god have mercy on your soul.

The government didn?t shut down wikipedia, they allegedly just edited the entries and perhaps changed the POV. This isn?t a case of censorship. If the government shut wikipedia down because it didn?t like a gitmo article that?s censorship. Authors are free to reedit any alleged government changes.

What felony statutes have been broken? I?m racking my gray matter and can?t come up with any. So you?re alleging civil rights violations and felony crimes have been committed, and you want prosecutions? Keep swigging the grape drink you alarmist you.
Posted by R.Jefferson (136 comments )
Link Flag
Ok, but you forget
That Wikipedia is first, not a news site. And 2nd...just because a person at the CIA might have done it does not make something a crime when I just as easily could do the same thing just cause I wanted to screw with something.
Posted by ittesi259 (696 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Fine so long as they are adding information or correcting it
The examples given in this article don't point to the CIA or FBI abusing Wikipedia, just correcting and adding information which is fine and encouraged. It is Fox "News" that is doing nothing but intentionally trashing and adding a conservative nutjob bias to certain articles, then turning around and calling it an unreliable source of information. I think that makes them hypocrites twice over.

It would be prudent for Wiki to red flag articles that have been touched with IPs of certain organizations that might be introducing a bias so they can be watched carefully for abuse. This should include all government agencies, passonate organizations (incuding liberal and conservative), as well as those with a history of abuse.
Posted by Professor Cornbread (51 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Snicker
Just who did Dan Rather work for? How about the Fauxtography scandals? How many of them did Fox fall for? Who did fall for them?

Massacre at Jenna? How about that? Flushed Koran?

Want more?

BTW, Fox is well /left/ of where the center was back in 1950. Even JFK was to the right of where Fox is today.

Everyone is Pixilated but you, eh?
Posted by Phillep_H (501 comments )
Link Flag
If you are an expert you can't edit Wikipedia
Wikipedia used to be the Encyclopedia that anyone could edit. Now it is a Communist Dictatorship that excludes experts from the CIA and FBI from adding their first hand experiences to Wikipedia, but allows some 19 year-old teenager who dropped out of college to pretend to be an Expert on Theology and Science with PHDs in those areas that do not exist in the real world and only on his online Wikipedia profile.

In other words, real experts are not wanted and edited out, and fake experts with fraudulent credentials are wanted to make edits and receive awards and get promoted to admin status as they made edits from the basement of their mother's house using an old 486 Packard Bell system running AOL 4.0 and Windows 95 on a 32K BPS dial-up modem and move around from one fast food job to the next, but on Wikipedia they are experts with at least three PHDs or so their online profile says.
Posted by Troll Hard (182 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Political hacks are not experts
I know that is hard for your limited intellect to comprehend.
Posted by expatincebu (158 comments )
Link Flag
There?s a Cabal over at Wikipedia
Just like any community driven site there is going to be a cabal of regulars who have more clout than others and banhammer some dissent, but I don?t know of any instance where conservatives have been actively sandbagged by the wiki regulars. If anything the wiki regulars just happen to have a liberal slant due to the SES of the community. Everyone?s an expert in their own mind over at wikipedia.
Posted by R.Jefferson (136 comments )
Link Flag
not so fast!
I turned 20 last month and I bought those degrees on the internet fair and square!
I demand a retraction and I'm alerting the news organizations that you're spreading propaganda via forums which are supposed to be the paragons of inalienable fact!
Posted by skeptik (590 comments )
Link Flag
World History is a Conspiracy
The only change is that folks are finally able to let each other know
what crimes are being committed from afar using the internet. This
is why the Internet 2.0 is the most difficult project to get onto.
They aren't ignorant to this problem. The Internet 2.0 will replace
the Internet 1.0, and thus all information that is harmful to "them"
will be censored once again. This why we must defeat them before
the Internet 2.0 gets its chance.
Posted by drtyrell (25 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Censorship
We had freedom of the press when many people had small presses and the news papers were independent. The newspapers consolidated and freedom of the press vanished.

We had freedom of speech over the radio waves back before NPR, PBS, and "Fairness Doctrine". The thousands of low power, independent radio stations, some in highschools, some in communities, one in nearly every college in the US, all closed down and made illegal. No more uncontrolled speech. (We are regaining this with the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine and the birth of Talk Radio, but the colleges have not regained their radio stations, nor have many communities.)

Political activists have nearly destroyed the utility of usenet as a discussion forum. They are working to shut down blogs they disagree with, subjecting them to DDoS attacks and attempting to sue them into silence.

Hillary wanted to find a way to control speech she did not like over the internet. McCain and Feingold gave her some of what she wanted. They want more.

Tyranny always finds a way to attack. We have to be on guard against anyone who wishes to silence others, even those we disagree with.
Posted by Phillep_H (501 comments )
Link Flag
Lame!
Silly government, Wikipedia is for citizens!
Posted by EggBeast (2 comments )
Reply Link Flag
reputable
Wikipedia is reputable. That is why we are discussing it, it is also why it got the governments attention. It is why they bothered to edit it.

Don't be silly in claiming otherwise, it just weakens your point.

Also censorship is defined by WordNet as "deleting parts of publications". The fact that it can be re-edited is good, the fact that they did it, means they intended not for it to be immediately re-edit, but to have some purpose.

In less you are proposing they just waste their time doing random things?

If you are proposing that, then you are hardly defending the government anyway.

You didn't do a good job of defending your viewpoint. The original comment still stands.

The constitution didn't envision the government to act as a censor to private publications. If that publication is not respected, even the less reason to spend time censoring it.

What happened is serious, it shows the government as not respecting civil society.
Posted by rdupuy11 (917 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Depends on Viewing
Wikipedia is like any other medium: ie: news sites, other encyclopedias and books. They are edited and reviewed by human beings. They are by no way, perfect. We would like our agendas or subjects to be in our favour. It won't be objective. Even if its written by the third person point of view, it will still be by their point of view about a certain subject. Wikipedia has external links for you to click on to verify the entry that you read and if you do want to check out the info that you read are legit, check and check them out. Or for some of you, Google it out. My suggestion, head to your local library for books and papers.
Posted by ilovewoofs2 (7 comments )
Reply Link Flag
loRl; did the CIA and FBI cite their additions
How are the CIA and FBI citing their sources on the additions to Wikipedia? Are they entering classified information or verbal spin for propaganda?
Posted by neochonetes (6 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Cites
I'm very concerned about them messing with the Wiki, but the choice is not only between "Truth, and therefore, Secret" and "Propaganda". Sometimes they can actually tell the truth.
Posted by Phillep_H (501 comments )
Link Flag
Judge Edits on their Own Merits
DESPITE that these edits came from FBI and other government depts. with three letter acronyms, most such edits could easily have had little to do with organization policy, and more with an individual interest. The edit on the Iraq deaths number seems to merely have added a disclaimer, and people editing pages describing their own accomplishments seems righteous enough, whether they're a professor or a professional bounty hunter. Seriously, the person who put up the aerial photos probably worked for the same organization as he who took them down.

HOWEVER, the edit that removed aerial photos, whether it came from someone bored enough to make Wikipedia edits at work from the FBI computer network or occurred as some sort of "cleaning," seems foolish and suspiciously unwarranted. God knows such editing occurs, on some level, in our news, is something the CIA probably already does to our major newspapers a bit, but these edits are NOT on the scale of some sort of policy matter.

BOTTOM LINE, these edits violate Wikipedia rules. Should we readers, however, allow them to become public relations disasters for the organizations for which the people who made the edits work?
Posted by ScarySquirrel (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
Those in the "know" CAN'T contribute?
It is apparent this guy considers the CIA and FBI to be organizations he is interested in embarrassing. That's OK. If they do something bad (not in this case it would seem to me) then it's good people know about it.

What I don't understand is Wiki's policy of denying editing access to people/organization that are "close to an issue" when it would seem likely they would be the most informed on the issue. Naturally, they might also be most likely to wish to distort or conceal elements of the issue, but to assume such seems unfair and unjust.

It would be enough, I think, to note that certain sources made certain changes or contributions. Of course, maintaining and allowing viewing access to such a source audit would be a major addition to Wiki. But, it would be a better solution to the "problem" than simply restricting editing access to those furthest from an issue.
Posted by samplesize (8 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Hmm
This is what the guy said "Griffith said he developed WikiScanner "to create minor public-relations disasters for companies and organizations I dislike (and) to see what 'interesting organizations' (which I am neutral toward) are up to."
Where did he said CIA &#38; FBI?

"What I don't understand is Wiki's policy of denying editing access to people/organization that are "close to an issue" when it would seem likely they would be the most informed on the issue. Naturally, they might also be most likely to wish to distort or conceal elements of the issue, but to assume such seems unfair and unjust. It would be enough, I think, to note that certain sources made certain changes or contributions."
In the Tom Delay's case, he argued that the judge who contributed to the so-called liberal organizations would be biased against him. Do you think that is unfair and unjust against the judge?

Not that I have much saying against CIA, FBI edits. I would need to know what changes they made before deciding whether it is appropriate or not.
Posted by vhac (68 comments )
Link Flag
Here is the way it works
If you are an expert on the subject, like you do work for or with or in the subject the article is posted about, they don't let you contribute to it. So what they do, is use people who aren't experts on the subject write the articles instead and revert the edits of the people who are experts on the subject.

Unlike a real Encyclopedia that hires experts to write articles on subjects that they have knowledge and education on.

Let us say for example that I am a computer expert with a bachelors degree. I write an article on Visual BASIC, which I use and program in it. I cite on my profile that I hold a degree and that I am an expert on the language having developed in it for over a decade. Some non-expert comes in, and reverts my edits, and links to some anonymous blog that says "Visual BASIC is horrible" and has untruths in it and opinions disguised as facts that say the exact opposite of what I wrote and properly cited to back up the facts I used in a neutral point of view. The point of view of the non-expert is heavily biased against Visual BASIC and Microsoft and Windows, and goes into rants. Then the non-expert wins an award and gets promoted to admin, and sees that I wrote a NPOV version of the article before him, and he decides to ban my user account so I cannot change his edits.

That is the way that experts are excluded from Wikipedia.
Posted by Troll Hard (182 comments )
Link Flag
Well...
So, WERE the figures estimates and unclassed? Did William Colby to those things? Perhaps there is a reason for not wanting arial shots of a prison online...

Really, before we even debate the idea that this is happening, can we ask if this stuff was actually fake propaganda or just differeing opinions?

Wikipedia - to me - has always been a suspect source of information. It's a great quick check on popular ideas, but hardly the most trustworthy of sources... I mean ANYONE can edit the thing! Anyone using it as a factual source of controversial information is just begging to be made a fool of.
Posted by skeptik (590 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Yes
WIKI is a good quick check, if all you want is an idea what something is about. Keeping in mind that they regard college professors as "middle".
Posted by Phillep_H (501 comments )
Link Flag
 

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