May 3, 2005 1:58 PM PDT

Apple's Tiger makes some companies growl

Now that Tiger is out of the bag, some Mac software makers say the new cat doesn't play well with others.

Several companies say their networking software isn't compatible with Apple Computer's new operating system, and some blame changes made to the kernel of Mac OS X. A number of the products in question are VPN programs that allow one to connect to a corporate network. Cisco Systems said last week that its VPN software was incompatible with Tiger, the latest version of the Mac OS that went on sale on Friday.

Other networking products are also affected, including two from Thursby Software. Thursby chief technology officer Paul Nelson said that with Tiger, Apple created a new set of kernel programming interfaces that change the way the operating system works with software written directly to its kernel. The move rendered obsolete some longstanding Unix networking program methods, known as Berkeley protocol stacks.

"Now we have to go back and redesign our kernel extensions to work with Tiger, which is a major job for us," Nelson said.

The software maker hopes to have updated versions of its of ADmitMac and DAVE products by August.

Microsoft is also reporting problems with the Virtual Switch networking feature of its Virtual PC software. Also, Microsoft said its zero-configuration printing and ability to launch PC programs via the dock is impacted.

"Microsoft is working closely with Apple to address issues and will put out a patch within two to three months on www.microsoft.com/mac," a Microsoft representative said in an e-mail.

Other vendors have reported problems, as well. Lobotomo Software reported Tiger-related problems with its IPSecuritas VPN software.

Equinux warned on its Web site that its VPN Tracker software also won't work properly with Tiger.

"In extensive tests we confirmed that Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger has a bug that seriously affects the VPN performance," the company said. "Depending on the actual application, the VPN throughput under Tiger is about 50 to 75 percent lower than under Mac OS X 10.3 Panther."

Equinux said it can't solve the problem, calling it a bug in the Tiger kernel. "However, we're closely working with Apple to deliver a fix soon."

Apple declined to comment specifically on what changes were made to Tiger's kernel, but said in a statement late Tuesday that it is "working closely with those few developers that have some work to do to update their applications for Mac OS X Tiger."

27 comments

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Year long beta test...
Tiger was out for testing for over a year for developers - how come
they're only picking up on this now? Sounds like some developers
would rather save a few bucks and wait until the OS is released
than look at the potential problems beforehand.
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
BackLog but no real excuse
Most of the companies claim they did not have the time. Their
resources were focused elsewhere and they probably just
assumed, or ignored. This probably happened due to the
simple fact that mac OS releases seldom break code and is
backwards compatible.

I can understand why this happened. However, if they were on
top of it, then you are right. The problem would have been
taken care of a loooong time ago. It's not like they didn't have a
copy, with all of the docs and SDKs.

But, no biggie. Problem will be solved. And once again, I
understand how this can happen.
Posted by Thomas, David (1947 comments )
Link Flag
Exactly
I'm sure they could have picked up a copy somehow and worked
with Apple during that year. Now they're screwed. How about
joining the Apple Developer Connection. I don't feel sorry for these
companies at all. Even small companies like Panic had their
software Tiger ready.
Posted by bdkennedy1 (58 comments )
Link Flag
Better Title For This Story
If cnet must have the cute titles, they could at least be accurate. How about...

"Some Developers Eaten By Fast Tiger"

"Unprepared Developers Surprised By Tiger"

"Tiger Beats Steer - Some Developers Can't Cope"
Posted by open-mind (1027 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Backlogs and Assumptions
No one tested because no one expected anything different. They
all assumed, aided on by propaganda reports from news
organizations (and you writers know who you are), that this was not
a major release.
Posted by Thomas, David (1947 comments )
Reply Link Flag
No one thought?
What a lame excuse. Assumptions are the mother of all evils
(insert other expletive here). There have been builds available
for over a year now. That is what they re for - testing.
Developers get these builds in order to test all of the
components of their software against it. That is one of the
things about software development. In order to achieve new
functionality and/or speed increases, of course changes may
have to happen within an operating system. I wish I could say I
have never heard of so much hogwash, but I have, each and
every time a new system comes out. Thursby is notorious for
whining and complaining, rather than moving and shaking. They
REACT, not work actively. If they had spent the amount of time
generating news and press releases as they did testing for
compatibility with Tiger, they would have known long ago of
issues and would have been able to interact with Apple to find a
working solution. If Thursby was a huge corporation like Cisco
or MS, where their efforts were not on Mac software
development, but rather Windows or their own development, I
can understand, but this is a company that prides itself on
bridging the gap to Windows users from Mac environments. Lets
see here, what part of Mac developer did anyone miss. If you are
a Mac developer, well, then maybe you should spend time
keeping up with the Platform's updates and changes? Or, is that
too much to ask? To put a little more perspective on things,
Thursby would much rather throw stones than find solutions.
When Apple begun its development to support Active Directory,
They had a few hangups, and some functionality was not
perfect. It would work, but just not as reliably as one would
hope. Because it began to intrude on something that Thursby
was doing, they instantly began to start whining. Instead of
focussing to make their product far better than Apple's, they
made a huge stink about how Apple's development sucked and
nothing worked. That was in fact, a false statement, but
nonetheless, it was shouted from the rooftops. They spent more
time whining and complaining than in honing their own products
to be even better. Whether or not Apple's product did or did not
have problems was far more important than its own
development. Has Apple gone away even though Microsoft is a
million times larger - no. Will Thursby go away if they make a
dynamite product and market effectively - no. the problem is
they are so into being confrontational that they are missing
some incredible opportunities to market themselves without
being the contentious ones.

I am very sorry if this stuff sounds harsh, but enough whining
already and get back to development. You are only wasting your
own and your clienteles time by these tactics. You could have
already started by now.
Posted by jasonemanuelson1 (82 comments )
Link Flag
Prime Example
Follow this link. Its a related story on this site.

<a class="jive-link-external" href="http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&#38;u=/mc/20050412/" target="_newWindow">http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&#38;u=/mc/20050412/</a>
tc_mc/microsofttalkstigercompatibility

You will notice that Microsoft, one of the companies affected,
chose not to test their Virtual PC software until Tiger was
released to the public. Soooo ... ahhmmm. What do you
expect?

If this was the stance taken by the other developers, then the
blame is on them, but publicly it will only affect Apple.
Posted by Thomas, David (1947 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Oh sure... but what really is a problem is...
WebObjects! Where is our WebObjects update that makes
development in Tiger possible again? Forget those networking
companies, maybe besides Dave, I am sure Cisco had the people
to handle this. I mean it was in beta or what?!!?!

Anyhoo... WebObjects... the greatest web application
development environment barr none is not yet compatible with
Tiger?!!! What the fsck?! That is an Apple product so there is no
excuse there.
Posted by jimjimijames (15 comments )
Reply Link Flag
uninformative
The trouble is that it's hard to tell what's
going on. Did the networking firms use non-
standard code, code that was supposed to be
encapsulated? Did Apple rip out standard
interface code and install some bizarre, OO
philosophically "correct" substitute?

Without knowing the details, no judgement can be
made.

BTW, WebObjects guy, how did you get started with
it? Did you start with NeXTStep? OpenStep?
Posted by (13 comments )
Reply Link Flag
for some, apple can never do anything wrong
for some, apple can never do anything wrong.

lucky apple :)
Posted by nonstopdoc1 (29 comments )
Reply Link Flag
How true
SP2 for XP was out for quite a while (in pre-betas, then a non-forced release), but if you look at the people giving their 'forgiveness' to Apple and scolding developers, they are the same flock that came down hard on MS for SP2s incompatibilities and offered their forgiveness' to overworked developers&
Got to love the double standards.
Posted by catchall (245 comments )
Link Flag
Read the story and related stories!
You will find that these companies didn't even bother to test
their software with the new releases. Every Tom, Dick, Harry,
and Jane, who was a member of the ADC had full access to all
the versions of Tiger leading up to this release.

The developers simply did not try it. And if they did, and they
knew about the issues, then they simply did not do anything
about.

There is no excuse for not doing your job. They can blame
Apple all they want, but anyone with more brain cells than a
worm, knows they simply did not do their jobs. Period.

I excused the vendors because I felt they probably believed that
this was not a major release. Just because the visual did not
change that much, certainly did not mean that the underlying OS
did not.

But now, because of you idiots who think the developers were
somehow "wronged", I withdraw my acceptance for their lack of
competence. I am a developer as well, and I bust my butt
constantly monitoring updates and changes with Windows as
well as MacOS. I'm an independent, but I still have time to keep
up.
Posted by Thomas, David (1947 comments )
Link Flag
Apple does plenty wrong.
Apple does plenty of things wrong. For example...

They don't make a headless G5 iMac (a la Mac Mini). They would
sell like crazy.

They only market the iPod, not the rest of their products. So
most of the world only knows about Windows.

XCode does not run on Windows, but it should. It would foster
cross-platform development, creating more Mac software.


But Tiger is not one of Apple's mistakes. Thousands of third
party applications work with Tiger just fine. And three have a
problem because they weren't tested. Who's fault is that?
Posted by open-mind (1027 comments )
Link Flag
Others just like to start flamewars...
If you haven't got anything of value to say, why not just flame, like this guy?
Posted by M C (598 comments )
Link Flag
Report correctly
This is incorrect:
"Several companies say their networking software isn't compatible with Apple Computer's new operating system..."

This is correct:
"Several companies say Apple Computer's new operating system isn't compatible with their networking software..."

See, the networking software was already there, Tiger just showed up. That makes the OS incompatible with the software, not the other way around.
Posted by SteveBarry687 (170 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Uh huh . . . .
So then this would be the correct way to report this future news item?

Several car companies hydrogen powered vehicles are incompatible with gasoline.

After all the gasoline was there first!

Applications run on top of the OS - therefore they have the responsibility to ensure that they can. Not the other way round. Otherwise we'd all be expecting WordStar to run on Longhorn. Hey maybe it does - if you could find a Longhorn PC with a 5.25" floppy disk!
Posted by erinford (1 comment )
Link Flag
No, it was right the first time.
The companies had the better part of a year to test their software with Tiger.

OTOH, maybe you were being sarcastic. ("Tiger just showed up" -- I'm thinking that humorous nugget was intentional.) If so, be warned that many may not get it.
Posted by M C (598 comments )
Link Flag
Cisco's VPN doesn't work well with Mac OS 10.3, or 10.2...
Though Cisco has a Mac client, it disables Ethernet functionality
in OS 10.2 and 10.3. The University I teach at requires the client
to connect to the wireless network on campus. We get at least
five complaints a week from students who cannot connect via
ethernet after installing the software...

I have heard that the latest Beta version works. I guess we'll see.
Posted by (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
Apple warned them
Apple has been telling developers since OS X was first released
that the method they're using to add kernel extensions was only
temporary and that "direct" access to the kernal was going to be
shut down for security/stability reasons somewhere down the
line. Its hard to believe that Thursby got taken by surprise.

For a good description of the change, why it was changed and
when developers knew about it, I'd recommend the ArsTechnica
review of Tiger.
Posted by taznar (45 comments )
Reply Link Flag
Buggy Tiger
Quite a few annoyances have I found in the world's "most
advanced" operating system.

Networking is a mess, particularly on a mixed Windows-Mac
environment, there's simply no way for my PB to connect to a my
schools Windows NT server. Plus, has anyone noticed that the
keyboard and dock work erratically sometimes - try changing a
password on an Entourage account, or handle the dock while
Spotlight is indexing your files.

What ever happened to user experience and expetatitions
concern? Is Apple rushing products to the market just not to fall
behind M$ Longhorn efforts?

I have found some internet articles that give about 2 to 3
months wait for patches (hmmm, that sounds very much like
Windows Service Packs to me).

I have a beautiful cat installed and yet sick already!!. Remember
the Panther Firewire flaw?, well, to me networking and unstable
behavior are even worse!!. Why do we have to "pay" for an
operating system that should "operate" properly right off the
shrinkwrapped box but doesn't.

Please Apple, pace yourself down a bit and get back on a roll as
you have done it since I bit the fruit for the first time back in
1994.
Posted by fjlopezbl45 (1 comment )
Reply Link Flag
No immediate network problems for me
I installed Tiger on a new mini-mac, and played with it for a day
before installing it on my iBook.

I have not experienced any problems connecting to my 2003
servier, or my 2000 server. In fact all of the computers
communicate nicely. I am not using a VPN and these are all
local development computers that I use professionally.

If your are experiencing network problems locally, then you
should research any changes you need to make, to access your
folders and drives. The security is tighter, and I did not read the
documentation to set my connections up. However, I did login
using my windows userid/password.

I don't know if that will help you or not.
Posted by Thomas, David (1947 comments )
Link Flag
i disagree
i have 2x tiger (dual g5,PB), panther(mini), and windows XP and 2003 on a LAN and the networking is fine, it's actually quicker and machine detection is significantly faster in tiger than in panther.

Entourage? blech. i'm not going to touch that one ;-)

as for the spotlight indexing, it's going to act quirky if you are referring to the first time spotlight runs to index your files because of the heavy amount of I/O from the disk, and depending on the machine u have it might be kind of slow, this happened on my wife's PB, however did not happen on my Dual G5 and i had a bunch of programs open while it was indexing about 300GB worth of files
Posted by kaotica (10 comments )
Link Flag
about that...
First, I've been running Tiger for 3 weeks (GM, another 2 weeks on
8A428), and have no complaints whatsoever.
The bugs you state seem to be issues with third-party software.
You can blame MS for not testing entourage and releasing a timely
fix.
Spotlight spends very little time indexing your HD, even if its rather
large; even so, the largest part of indexing is a one-time offense, a
part of setting up your new cat.
Posted by (2 comments )
Link Flag
Boneheaded
If they really did drop the Sockets API, then Apple did themselves and all Tiger adopters, and Mac software vendors a huge disservice. If this is the case, then most vendors are not going to want to write to two different API's, so they will choose one and the one they will choose will likely be the most standard one aka Unix Sockets.

The only major OS that doesn't use it, are windows, and even their sockets API is a close copy of the Sockets API.
Posted by pcLoadLetter (395 comments )
Reply Link Flag
 

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