Andreessen: PHP succeeding where Java isn't

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something I get no end of crap about," he said of the technical decision. "We have a core to our system that is built in Java. It is more like an operating system, like a system programming project. Then we have the entire application level--practically everything you see is in PHP."

PHP, like open-source projects including Linux and Apache, now has received the blessing of major powers in the computing industry. IBM and Oracle are working on software that let PHP-powered applications pull information from their databases, and that endorsement has been important, said Zend CEO Doron Gerstel.

"The fact that IBM and Oracle are behind it--this is for a lot of IT (customers) a quality stamp. The big guys endorse it, so it must be good," Gerstel said in a meeting with reporters.

The new version 5.1 of PHP, scheduled to arrive in early November, will include a faster engine to process PHP scripts, said Zeev Suraski, a Zend co-founder and PHP creator. It also will include a low-level "data abstraction layer" that makes it easier for PHP to communicate with different databases and a higher-level layer to interface with XML information produced and consumed by Web services.

"They got mad. Then I told them we wanted to name it JavaScript, and that made them even madder."

--Marc Andreessen,
founder, Netscape

Version 6, which is expected to arrive in 2006, will support Unicode character encoding, which supports a wide range of alphabets, simplifying creation of software that works in multiple international regions.

Andreessen said he believes the Web is where most new applications will reside--in part because Web applications are available as soon as they're launched, sidestepping the distribution challenge of desktop software.

"Microsoft talks a lot about Avalon (display technology in the upcoming Vista version of Windows) and fat clients. But they still have a problem. You have to get the program out onto everybody's desktop. With the Web model, you don't," Andreessen said. "I think there's no question the Web model is going to dominate over the next 10, 20, 30 years."

Some interesting work is being done on the PCs, however, but he pointed only to applications that run in a Web browser and that rely on data and services supplied over the Internet. Here, again, Java is losing to an unrelated scripting technology called JavaScript and a JavaScript offshoot called AJAX that permits a fancier user interface.

"JavaScript was, and now with AJAX is, the standard way to do client-side development in a browser, as opposed to Java," Andreessen said. "Java applets in the browser never took to the extent some of us thought they would."

Not everyone sees things the same way. Google uses some cutting-edge browser-based software such as AJAX, but CEO Eric Schmidt took the stage earlier this week with Sun CEO Scott McNealy to announce that the Google Toolbar will be piggybacking on distributions of the desktop version of Java.

"I was amazed to find out how much the Java Runtime Environment is inside companies, either because a CIO standardized on it or there are enough applications that the CIO wants the JRE to be a standard" part of the company's computing infrastructure, Schmidt said at the Sun-Google event. As part of that partnership, Google will help develop Java.

Netscape pushed JavaScript as a way to build fancier Web pages than the fundamental HTML (Hypertext Markup Language) standard permitted, but without the more difficult programming Java required, Andreessen said. "We did JavaScript to try to be an intermediate bridge between HTML and Java. I got in huge fights with Sun over this," Andreessen said. "They got mad. Then I told them we wanted to name it JavaScript, and that made them even madder."

Java isn't the only client software that didn't live up to its promise, Andreessen said. Macromedia's Flash format, which enables animation, sound, motion and other splashy features within browsers, also is on the list.

"I think Flash is one of the most exciting technologies out there that's almost on the verge of great success and never quite achieving it," Andreessen said.

[bfioca]

PHP 5 feels like Java

Check out the WASP framework for PHP 5.
http://wasp.sourceforge.net

It was designed to help smooth the transition from Java to PHP for
people who are used to heavy Java-centric web programming.

[bbatsell]

WASP != PHP5

I'm not sure how a framework that runs on PHP makes PHP5 feel
like Java. Actually, it doesn't at all.

B.S. Mark should know better.

PHP may be simpler than Java to develop very small less-than-
modular web apps, you could say the same about a number of
competing scripting technologies. But this line is pure B.S.:

"It's (Java) become arguably even harder to learn than C++"

Ever heard of garbage collection? How about open-source APIs?

Mark should be ashamed of himself for making such
irresponsible statements.

[fireball74]

No, it's true unfortunatly....

I'm in the middle of learning Java 5. I have a background in programming web apps in object PHP, and dabbling in some C/C++, VB 6, and Pascal/Delphi. I thought it might be nice to try and learn a language that incorporates OOP, and can be used as a local app with a relatively standard base. It has been a struggle.

There is a real simplicity to PHP. Through a single book, and the online php.net reference, I was able to write my first PHP app in hours. The progam I made crawled a directory of a server for certain files, parsed information out, and presented it in a report made with HTML 1.0 standard output. Yep! Just a couple of hours of work and it worked great.

On the otherhand, after weeks of reading and researching, I can do a "Hello World!" console app in Java, but that's really about it. It is, indeed, a challenge. There is a lot to the language, after all there are thousands of libraries that come with Java 5, not to mention all the libraries you can install on your own. Having so much builtin leads to bloated apps, nevermind it's still and interpreted language, just like PHP.

[sjoh]

java and php has its places.

I agree, statement like java becoming harder than C++ is totally b.s. but i agree with Marc where he says, java has it's place, Server-Side. In enterprise environment, PHP has limitations. Imagine, in typical enterprise setting, single transaction could involve multiple department, system, and multiple partners, all running different system. Java makes easier to tackle these problems with support of networking and distributed computing features. IMHO, PHP is good where transaction is limited to single php page (one php page at a time). Again, as Marc mentioned, his company writes business logic (server-side) with java and front-end (pull data) with php, it works. as long as it works for them is good. my 2cents. :))

[nickbyfleet]

Completely Agree

I am a fifteen year old taking AP Computer Science which is Java and I use PHP to do my High School webpage. I am the only person in the entire school that can code webpages and I have to say that I prefer Java to PHP because of its inherant Object oriented approach and simplicity, plus it is very scalable. I don't see PHP being a great workhorse. But then again I am only fifteen and I probably don't know as much as you guys, Please don't be angry with me if I have said something erronous.

Marc who?

If they ever assemble a list of one-hit software wonders this guy will probably top the list. So which failed startup in the making is he working on now?

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Remember...

The guy who invented the web browser.

[bbatsell]

You've got to be kidding me...

Marc Andreessen worked with Tim Berners-Lee (the inventor of the
Internet), wrote the NCSA Mosaic web browser (the very first web
browser, without which you likely wouldn't be here), and then
founded Netscape Communications. Why don't you give us all a
ring when your "failed start-up" has done as much for the web as
he has.

[JCCox]

LoudCloud?

The guy who started LoudCloud and then sold it to EDS for a bucket of money. Thats who.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

You remember...

The guy who invented the web browser.

[Sentinel]

No surprise here!

Nope, no surprise at all. Anyone who has two eyes on their face can tell you what this article says. PHP is much simpler than Java. I have tried to learn a little JSP (Java Server Pages) on two different occasions, with little success. Every time I look for tutorials on the internet, they begin talking about java servlets. A servlet that writes "Hello World" in an HTML page can easily have up to 15 lines of code, where is PHP it is done with a simple echo command.
Most java servlets begin like this (or something like this):

import javax.servlet.HTTPServlet;

And a few other lines like that. What's up with that? The second time I tried to learn JSP, I spent hours setting up a "reccomended" development environment using Apache, an environment which was not reccomended for "deployment".

So, trying to give Java another chance, I tried to make stand-alone applications. After all, Java is the only "interpreted" language that includes built-in support for GUI design. So I started to design an interface using a GUI program (netbeans) (I don't think many people actually CODE their interface design in Java). I spent about an hour setting up two buttons, two labels and one button just the way I wanted. It's because of the layout I was using. These "layouts" are the most ridiculious idea I've ever heard. But never fear, the Absolute Layout lets me put my controls where I want. Only problem is, it's part of the netbeans IDE, and without netbeans installed, it doesn't work.

All in all, the difficulty of setting up a Java environment, the clutter of the language (look up how to read data from the console for an example) and all the object-oriented mumbo jumbo will eventually lead Java to its downfall.

[Bill Dautrive]

Hello?

You need to learn the java language first.

JSP is an APPILCATION of java. How can you apply java if you do not know it?

Import statements are simple.

import javax.servlet.HTTPServlet

That imports the class file named HTTPServlet in the existing class so it can use it. It tell the compiler it is found in the package(basically a folder) named javax, and servlet is a package inside javax.

What is complex about that?

I agree the layouts could be handled better, but are similar to GUI libraries for many languages. Your main problem is you do not know the langauge. Learn the language(very, very easy) and swing and servlets will be a cakewalk too.

Try learning the C++ standard template library without knowing C++. Doesn't work. You need to learn php before you can use that too.

[Bob_Barker]

Java is teh s uck

Suprised it didn't die years ago.

Java's problem is operating system on top operating system

My frustration with Java: When I go to a website and my PC freezes solidly for two mins and behave like drunk, that website is using Java. When I go to a website that is instantly alive and flashy, that website is either powered with AJAX, JavaScript, Flash, PHP, etc.
Java is not for the consummer application, it's for dummy geeks. Marc is right.

Client versus Server Side

Problem with Java you describe is client-side (i.e. Applets). The discussion is about the use of PHP versus Java on the server side where it would have no such effect on your browser.

[taliesan]

Nothing To Do With Java

That is nothing to do with Java and EVERYTHING to do with the way the application is built. If you're referring to including a Java applet in a web page that's something different.

It's just as easy to screw up a PHP application as it is to screw up a Java application.

Here's Hoping PHP Does Not Go the Java Path

Programming languages, when they become popular enough, have a knack for getting more and more features to make up for functionality it sometimes isn't meant to solve, and that eventually results in it becoming more complex, clunky and bloated.

As noted in the article, here's hoping PHP doesn't fall into this trap like Java and just about everything else.

[alenas]

How they can compare PHP with Java at all?

It is sad to see that most people who are praising PHP are either bad programmers or they are not programmers at all. For example PHP does not have built in caching - and both Java and .Net have that thing working pretty well. So how can you get 2000 users working on some PHP web page without caching?
And look at the way most PHP code is being written - plain crap. If you say that PHP is easy language - I can say that it is easy for creating crap code. If you want to make something usefull and reusable then Java or .Net is much better choice.
And I can not believe my ears when I hear people complaining about object oriented programming.
I think it's time to realize that programming is one of the hardest tasks for human brain - so not everyone can be a programmer even if they try hard. So I am not blaming those people who choose PHP - they are just the ones that can not/do not understand how real programming works.

RE: How they can compare PHP with Java at all?

I could not agree more.

PHP Caching

As any 'real' programmer would know, there's quite a few caching systems available for PHP.

[nickbyfleet]

I agree

I would like to say that I completely agree with everything you said.

[just_some_guy]

Who's complaining?

Who is complaining about object oriented programming? PHP 5 is "object oriented". Java does not magically force people to write good code - crappy coders can ruin a project no matter what language they are using. I'm pretty sure Marc Andreesen is looking at both languages from the perspective of a good coder, not a crappy one.

Comparing Apples to Pears

I agree that they are off the mark touting one
displacing the other, but I disagree with the
denigration of PHP. Caching -- it's supported
in PHP more or less as it is in .Net and Java,
you might not be aware of it, but it doesn't
mean it isn't there for those who are.

Further, like anything else in programming, the
language is simply a tool. Different languages
are inherently better at approaching different
problems and performing certain function based
on their design. Anyone that has spent much time
programming a variety of languages is keenly
aware of this. Sometimes there are external
factors that influence language choice for
development too, but as a programmer you
generally want to select the right tool for the
job.

What's the right tool for the job? It depends.
PHP is great for simple logic, interfacing with
the OS, and manipulating XML or dealing with
SOAP. Java has great OOP, introspection, rich
support libraries, etc. It should be plainly
obvious to anyone familiar with both languages
as to when is a superior solution to a specific
task. I find that I write in both languages
quite a bit (and, in my field, most everything I
write is new and there are no overriding
constraints on what I choose).

[Mister L]

Pardon me but...

...are you implying that Marc Andreessen can't code? (Well, yes, you both are...silly persons, you)

[Mister L]

oops

Wrong spot, see similarly titled comment for proper location

[aabcdefghij987654321]

Marc grabbing a headline again

Best way to get press when you're not very relevant anymore? Make a controversial statement...

Andreessen is using Java on his own site...why is that? Excuses, excuses... PHP is fine (IMO of course) if you want to do simple things and aren't terribly concerned about throughput. In terms of processing business logic, I'd guess Java is around 10x faster on the same hardware. The impressive thing with Java is the performance achieved with a bytcode interpreted language.

Try Java with a good framework like Wicket, and I'm pretty sure PHP will start to look a lot less appealing.

By the way, one thing to watch out for with PHP is getting locked into MYSQL, since the default database stuff is MYSQL specific. At least Java is nicely database agnostic.

HIH.

[rsawoseyin]

PHP most database-friendly

Quote
.. one thing to watch out for with PHP is getting locked into MYSQL, since the default database stuff is MYSQL specific ..
Unquote

Real-life applications are about data. Database work is one of those areas I think PHP excels. It has built-in functions to access MySQL, InterBase, MS SQL,Informix,mSQL, Oracle, PostgreSQL, Sybase etc. PHP does not make any database the default - you must consciously select your database through the relevant function. The reason PHP seems to be nearly always linked to MySQL is that MySQL is the most widely-used open-source database on earth, and just about every web host supports it. But within the same PHP application you can effortlessly access several databases.

I gave up on Java because of the difficulty accessing databases of my choice. Also, I love to be able to write my application and be sure it will run without worrying if the user has the right run-time engine installed on his/her machine.

Tutorial: ?Comparing PHP, Java, ASP for web application development"

Downloadable here:
http://www.100days.de/download.php?id=i/677.pdf

On the above-mentioned ?Zend PHP Conference & Expo? in San Francisco Gaylord Aulke, CEO and founder of 100 DAYS, gave a substantial tutorial on ?Comparing PHP, Java/J2EE and ASP for web application management?. Aulke is also deeply involved in the PHP-framework-development-initiative. 100 DAYS develops in Java/J2EE as well as in PHP. Another Track given by Gaylord Aulke on the PHP Conf & Expo is a Case together with Boehringer Ingelheim, Top20 Pharma-Producer worldwide and Customer of 100 DAYS concerning PHP2SAP-Integration ( more info: http://zend.kbconferences.com/speakerbios.php#session203 )

Might be helpful for getting some more detailed and objective insight in the topic.

regards from germany,
hb

He's right on the money, of course

PHP is a very pragmatic language, suitable for applications both small and large, simple and complex. It's very approachable, and very easy to get started in. It's designed with the idea of getting an application up and working. Java on the other hand is ideological, and is hampered by that fact. It's not a language designed to be an effective programming solution, but rather a language designed to be ideologically 'pure'.

Java is a liberal arts professor stuck in an ivory tower, crippled into inaction by his own perfection. He is oh-so-much more enlightened about the theory of programming than the 'little people', but he'll never really be anything other than what he is now.

PHP is an aggresive problem solver who drops out of college to start his own company and ends up one of the richest and most influencial men in the world.

talk about ideology

Are you a programmer or an ideologue? I think the answer is
obvious.

I guess some 3-4 million programmers building the majority of
enterprise applications in the largest companies on the planet
are also oh-so-much more enlightened about the theory of
programming than the 'little people'.

PHP is a good scripting language well-suited for small web apps.

Java it is not, and won't be for at least 5-7 years, if ever.

Take your ideology elsewhere buddy, there is no place for it in a
programmer's world. We use the best tools for the job at hand.
For large scale server-side apps that means Java.

A very smart man once said to me "I don't love software, I love
women". Think about that before you start calling others
ideologues.

[sonofbc]

Average Joe is reason for lack of Java support.

Most people I know do not like Java, JavaScript or Flash. The reason is simple. It is in your face when you just want to quietly surf the web. I have both Java and Flash on a software 'switch' but in most cases I leave them off. If there were built-in on/off buttons on the browsers they might gain a larger following. But if used to ?push? advertising I think they will be shunned.

[markdoiron]

It's About Content

i agree with you, Joe, that java, javascript and flash are misused on the web. and a lot of that is for advertising. but a lot of it is for eye candy--the, "wow, how'd they do that?" factor. it doesn't contribute to the site at all once that initial "cool factor" ends (about 1.5 nanoseconds later). but it often makes the site incompatible with different browsers/proxies, and more complex to navigate. regardless, each of these technologies can be valuable when used intelligently in smart website design--a rarity on today's web where cool has higher standing than ease of use.

mark d.

PHP is nearly enterprise ready

PHP is not quite Enterprise-ready. For this to become reality, there are a few more baby steps to take

1. Since PHP is a simpler language, one must assume the barriers that prevent less experienced developers to write software will be lowered. PHP must be able to safely execute within a sandbox.

2. Provide default automatic filtering of dangerous arguments in the REQUEST variables, such as those that typify SQL injection attacks, and cross-site scripting attacks.

3. Provide unified access to enterprise identity management. No, we don't want developers to roll their own, and neither do we want third party COTS developers to have to develop to a gaggle of APIs.

I've detailed more over my blog "PHP and the Enterprise": http://www.redmountainsw.com/wordpress/archives/php-and-the-enterprise

nearly? it's farther away than "nearly"...

It took Java years to get some of the things you mention
straightened out... what makes you think PHP will have these
features anytime soon? And to be enterprise-ready it will require
more than what you mention here... It's got a long way to go to be
a suitable environment for large-scale apps.

Giant steps, more like. A good security model is only one of many
significant hurdles that need to be cleared.

[stmon99]

doesn't matter

All web apps SUCK.

[nickbyfleet]

I Think..

People should use whatever they are comfortable with, for me that is Java. Both languages have their strengths and weaknesses but there are workarounds for most shortcomings.

nonsense!

How can he compare a cheap script with a language and platform? I did not know why Netscape was self terminated until now.

[JCCox]

JSP is rubbish

Its time to face up to facts, Java is dying and PHP is growing daily.

I work fro a Fortune 100 and we've decided to abandon JSP and migrate our applications to PHP.

Why? Because PHP is cheaper, and easier to use, while being just as powerful as JSP.

All you Java geeks out there who take pride in the fact that your language is hard to use, take pride in the fact that soon you'll be the only ones using it!

Java is an overcomplicate, bloated and uncessarily complex language that fails to deliver on its promises.

PHP on the other hand is easy to use, very very powerful and with Oracle now supporting it, the way ahead.

[finleyd]

PHP not only Java alternative

PHP is not the only alternative to Java, and is probably not the "best" alternative. For example, one should check out the work being done with Ruby (http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/) and "Ruby on Rails" (http://www.rubyonrails.org/).

[ProfessorDino]

But what IS Ruby/ROR and WHY is it better?

Ruby, Rails, Ruby On Rails...look, this is going to suffer the same fate as Microsoft's .NET platform. A few zealots are jumping on the bandwagon, but nobody can really quite explain in simple terms what Ruby is (other than "a framework") and why it's better than PHP. I am not knocking Ruby whatsoever. I'm sure it's just fine, wonderful, the Second Coming, etc...but the Ruby folks really need to start educating the masses more effectively before any of us give up years of investment in PHP development. And, just like Java, it looks far too complicated for your garden-variety web app. So, to all you Ruby fans: don't just get me excited. SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!

PHP costs less

I'm surprised nobody has brought up the cost aspect when comparing PHP and Java. I have worked for several small companies deliveriving Web application services type applications and PHP has been the clear winner for these companies in keeping their costs low. Sure, you can start with Java for very little cost but when you start to grow the service and end up getting into databases, applications servers, and the like some pretty hefty licensing fees come into play. Setting up a LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP) server on the other hand is wonderfully free! All you need is the hardware and even there there are tons of hosting and dedicated server companies that can provide you the platform for small change compared to the cost of an Oracle license! As for .NET, with Microsoft nickle and diming you at every turn, I don't even want to go there!

As a programmer, I love programming in Java. But PHP fits the budget of the companies I work for far better. My only real problem with PHP is that I do find, as mentioned before, with PHP so easy to learn there is a lot of crap code. However, a disciplined programmer can make beautiful code in PHP too, if you know what you're doing, especially using OO in PHP5. It makes for a real headache when I hire subcontractors, weeding out the qualified programmers from the taught-my-self PHP web hacker.

The only time I yearn for Java these days is when I am forced to write explicit unit tests (PHP has PHPUnit, just like JUnit!) to test error conditions because there is no compiler to pick-up on my typo errors! Argh. Other than that, I love the way PHP can be used to implement application services over the web for so darn cheap! Practically solutions after all win out over design elegance in my world.

Charlotte

[Bill Dautrive]

re

Ever heard of Linux/Apache Tomcat/MySQL/Java

Guess what?

It is free and JSP beats the pants out of plain old CGI for basic web server programs.