Comments on: Macintosh: It's a Madison Avenue thing

Apple's perpetual emphasis on presentation style makes CNET News.com's Michael Kanellos feel pushed into getting a makeover.

[Awesomebase]

Understandable article, but...

I know you probably don't have the time to read any of these
comments, but I just want to let you in on something in terms of
your article. Certainly you are correct when it comes to the
apparent design savvy expectations of the Mac community and
there will certainly be a portion of that population that will
continue to insist that Macs are significantly superior to PCs in
every way no matter what Apple puts out.
However, you miss an important part of that "Mac" mentality. I
think I can sum it up by just saying that most PC users just
"don't get it" when it comes to the Mac experience. By this I
mean that if people were to just look at the economics of a Mac
vs. PC purchase including the "whole" computer experience,
there is no doubt that a Mac purchase is significantly less costly.
I have never seen a PC user admit to this because as far as they
are concerned, the initial price is all that counts. If they had to
do this as part of an economics course or a project in personal
finance they would flunk. The reason? Even if you paid yourself
minimum wage for all the extra hours you spend every week
getting things to operate correctly on a Windows machine or
downloading plugins and applications and dealing with viruses,
BSODs, freezes, etc, you would see your Mac pay off in just 3 or
4 months. Never mind that Mac machines can be used for 5
years or more easily. Don't even calculate the fact that they
include software that you end up paying hundreds of dollars for
after you get a PC. You can even ignore the inherent benefit of
knowing that you will most likely go through the life of your
machine never having opened the cover to see "if something's
wrong with the video card, or memory, or hard drive or power
supply" or taking it in to a local store for repair.
Having been an avid PC user since I first got my XT machine 16
years ago, it wasn't until I got my first OS X machine 4 years ago
that I saw the difference immediately.
I can plug my digital camera and camcorder into my machine
and always, without fail, I'll not only have the hardware correctly
recognized, but the proper application automatically starts up
and conveniently asks me to import my material. I never worry
about drivers or crashes or BSOD. All of these benefits are what
make the Mac experience a very good one. If that isn't enough,
the hardware design makes it even more incredible.
For all the lack of any imagination in PC hardware design, credit
should be due to Apple's continuing dedication to making what
is arguably the ugliest part of any house or office something that
is decent to look at and that can be marginally enjoyed if not
appreciated for what it does. Forget the fact that it runs a
different OS, the design itself is a model of innovation and
creativity.
I'm not a huge Mac fan or PC fan, but I give credit to each for the
positive things they bring. More and more though, I see that
Macs are becoming much more practical for everyday people.
As technology becomes more complex, design and presentation
has to be fine-tuned for people to be able to understand and
use it productively. If all of that is not worth $100 or $200 extra
to you, than either you're not very adept at math, or you simply
don't value time for what it is really worth. Even at $5/hour,
you'll save $100 in a month no problem, much more if you
actually use the machine for work.

Way off the mark

I'm not sure you could have over generalized any more and
missed the whole point at the same time. Quite remarkable.

[Thrudheim]

You are so wrong

Who puts a soundtrack to their family photos? Not you, I guess.

My parents love watching slideshows of their grandkids set to
music. During the holidays, the whole family laughed and
laughed over the movie my brother and I put together in less
than an hour using a DV camera and iMovie. When people have
the tools to be creative, they will do it and have fun.

Beauty without function is just beauty, but add powerful
functionality and what you have is sublime. The Mac OS
combines both.

A few months ago, I gave a die-hard PC friend of mine a quick
demo of iMovie. It was a quick slide show of photos using the
Ken Burns effect (and, yes, it was set to music). Of course,
iMovie is directly linked to one's iPhoto library and iTunes for the
music. Adding transitions between pictures were simple with
drag and drop. He had messed around with various programs
on the PC and could not believe how easy it was using software
that is *included* on every new Mac. Now he is interested in the
Mac platform for his next computer.

There are PC people in the world who will never get it. No Mac
will ever be cheap enough. There will always be some flaw to
complain about. That's fine. They can have Windows and
everything that comes with it. Just don't sit from the outside
and carp about how bad we Mac users have it.

What is wrong with a little style...

I will start by offering credit where it is due. Nice job with
complimenting the software.

On the design side, we need more style in this world. It doesn't
have to be snobby style, but when anyone looks at the Apple vs.
the gateway you mentioned, they are not even in the same
league. One is a door stop, the other is a beautiful piece of
technology that is well thought out all the way around. Which
one would you really rather have in your home or office? Our
culture needs to stop thinking of everything in the lowest
possible price and rethink our values. Just imagine if people did
this with food or cars.

I think you should rethink your opinion and offer a follow up
apology letter to everyone for your narrow article.

[jasontho]

WHAT A TOOL

You know what, you just don't get it. I guess Cornell can't teach
good taste! I think it'd be better if you stay in you little cell of an
apartment and play with your Dell. Have fun, Tool.

Mac is about value, not about cheap

>> "It is word processing with a sense of style," Jobs said. "It is
designed so that mere mortals can create fantastic-looking
documents."

What's wrong with this? Word, with its monopoloy has for years
defined style (or lack of it) in word processing. I cant tell you
how many times I come across the same Microsoft supplied
clipart in Word documents. Microsoft's monopoly of productivity
applications have homogenized end users with acceptance of
mediocrity and conformity.

>> All the presentations looked great, but they also seemed
foreign and impersonal. Who puts a soundtrack to their family
photos? "Mom's second-wedding shots--cue up the Skynrd."
Most of us are lucky to have poorly labeled computer files, a
cardboard box with prints and/or a vague idea of who is in the
picture.

You demonstrate the very reason for the existence of iPhoto.
Without iPhoto, all you have are oddly named jpeg image files.
iPhoto is to allow users to produce and present their photo
albums, not to merely display pictures.

You are knocking iPhoto and Pages for being enablers and
extenders of creativity; for allowing endusers to create content.
You should not be fearful of it.

And about the Mac mini.. the Macintosh will always be a
premium system, even at the low end. It will never be a
commodity. That's what Windows and the Gateway you mention
are for. The Mac mini is a cheaper Mac, not a cheap Mac. You
will always find cheaper PC hardware. But you will not find the
level of integration and elegance of hardware and software at
any price in the PC world.

To carry your tagline.. Mac people dont care about cost, they
care about value. But cost is all (your generalization) PC people
care about.

[ftrain]

Style vs. Design

Mike, what you deride as mere "style" is actually exceptional design. And what is wrong with that? If there is something wrong with it, why do the other tech companies routinely ape Apple's designs?

You comment that at most PC presentations, they'll talk about how their technology is helping a kid do his homework, but aside from the one example you gave of the iPhoto/music functionality (which was erroneous anyway), how is it that Apple's presentations don't routinely tell how their products don't just look great but also help people to do things in the simplest way possible? Mike, would you rather have a clunky Dell Jukebox MP3 player, with its awkward scrolling dial, or a sleek, beautiful, EXTREMELY WELL DESIGNED iPod with its ergonomically sound scrolling wheel that isn't going to give you tendinitis in your thumb?

It's not just style, Mike. It's design. In Apple's case, there is a difference.

Try this equation

Style = attention to detail = higher quality

Quality is what most people understand. Mercedes has long
been associated with high quality because of their attention to
details. The balance is providing that quality at an affordable
price like Toyota. In fact, let's use yet another car analogy and
look at the re-birth of the Mini itself. It's all about style and the
associated improvement in quality that has boosted sales
beyond the cult factor. Why do you think the Yugo never caught
on? It wasn't due to cost. But what about quality? Walk up to any
other car next to a Yugo and guess what most people walk away
with? They basically couldn't justify the savings in cost versus
the potential risk of life due to lower quality construction. So, I
guess PC users are willing to risk their data life just to save
some bucks on purchase.

PCs also simply provide a visual cue as to the quality in which
they are produced and hence their likely useable (and short)
lifespan. Just how many PC users do you hear saying that they
bought their new computer knowing they can rely on it for at
least five year? Guess what the avg. lifespan of a Mac is -- easily
five and more likely six years.

Finally, just consider how you perceive a potential business
partner when they hand you their business card, especially in
Asia. Style leaves a lasting impression both good and bad. Mac
users clearly want to leave a different impression then PC ussers.

Let's give it some Life...

I found your article very jumpy and not very clear as to what you were saying. You compared the Mac Mini to Dell and Gateway but didn't really say why not to buy it other than the keyboard and mouse loss. Not to mention you've compared the iPhoto to nothing in your article but state that people don't use it for those purposes.

Maybe you should consider looking at it more personally and less professionally. I've found that 10 years I've spent on the PC have made me less personal with my data and pictures. Where the past 3 years I've spent on my Mac have really caused me to use if for sharing with others and creating things like slideshows and movies to share with friends and family.

Since when have computers only needed to be used by the professionals of the world (which I am one). I think Steve Jobs continues to try and make the leap of connecting with users to find out what they enjoy in life and then creating things that enhance that experience.

Lastly, take my wife for instance. When we had a PC to manage our photos she wanted nothing to do with it. Now that we have a Mac she creates things without my help at all. THAT IS THE KEY!!

Make it PERSONAL Computing not PROFESSIONAL.

[michael kanellos]

The author responds

Hello. I thought I'd submit a comment to the dialog.

1. First, hats off to all those who've posted comments. There are some really good, cogent points. It wasn't long ago that the bulk of reactions to articles criticizing Apple consisted of four letter words.

2. I'll try the soundtrack to slide shows again. It gave me the creeps the times I've tried it, but it sounds like I'm the odd one out here.

3. Will the Mac mini succeed? Some comments collectively bring up an interesting points: it's still hard to say who will buy this. Is it trying to woo switchers? bargain hunters? people who want a media server? Will people who like the small size simply get a notebook instead? The target audience for the first iMac was easier to figure out.

On a side note, the theory that the ipod will spur mac sales seems to be true. In the financial release, Mac sales are up 25 percent in terms of units for the q, 2.5 times faster than the PC market.

4. Apple does have pretty exceptional design talents. With a few exceptions, this is one of the smallest PCs out there. Succeeding on design, however, is tough. The first iMac sold in huge numbers; the cube did not. the flat panel imac faded. The public will see what happens here.

5. Strangely, one of Apple's biggest strengths and liabilities is the emotion the company engenders. Buying a Dell is never a lifestyle choice, and look how many PCs they sell. Again, I'm the odd one out here, but Apple always strikes me as a company that expects me (or any consumer) to conform to some ideal or values.

6. Thanks to Anthony Frausto-robledo for bringing up the Jonathan. I forgot completely about that one.

good to see a reply to posts.

you make some valid points about you feeling you need to conform. I think apple expects no such thing but PC people can sometimes feel that apple people expect them too. I think you will find its no different the other way round.

Your right on another thing. It is a lifestyle choice, but they don't realise it until they fall in love with their mac. This is not a bad thing as you seem to think of it. I love my mac because it is a help to my goals not a hindrence like my pc can be at times. i made a lifestyle choice, that choice was that i am not going to take any c#$p from life and i am going to achieve all i know i can, so i got a mac and with my new frame of mine i have never looked back. Its a healthy lifestyle choice, no not one everyone is ready to make but just as valid as a PC users choice not to buy a mac.

also another thing

my mum loves the slide show feature. she is 47 and made a dvd with slideshows etc etc of my engagement. this is from someone that doesn't use computers much. she is loving every minute of it. you may not have the time to spend doing these sort of things, as i don't either. but there are people that have a slower paced life or that get excitement from being creative that do enjoy these things. they whole point of the mac is that it helps you achieve these creative goals.

Do things right first time. Pages help your kids do that for the school projects. your teaching them a good lesson in life. we don't want everyone to be marketers but every job involves marketing, marketing of one self or marketing of a product. just my being a writer ou market yourself with every article.

[tsevis]

The author simply doesn't get it!

Dear Mike,

thank you for the reply. But the advise remains: Get a Mac! Even
it's a little bit more expensive than this silly pc you suggested.
Live with it for a couple of weeks. Then we talk again.

Charis Tsevis

[Jeff Lebowski 63]

Strange thing to say...

Michael wrote: "Again, I'm the odd one out here, but Apple
always strikes me as a company that expects me (or any
consumer) to conform to some ideal or values."

Why on earth would you feel like that? It's a computer purchase
from a for-profit computer corporation. Apple doesn't expect
anything from it's customers other than their money.

As I outlined in another response, I think you are basing your
perceptions on Apple's marketing and advertising rather than
reality. Most Mac users do not fit the stereotype you have in your
mind.

I wish I could introduce you to the thousands of Mac users I've
known over the years. They're not what you think. Far from
being Apple worshipers, they are Apple's biggest critics. They
buy Macs because they are more productive on that platform
relative to the alternative.

In fifteen years, I've met precisely one Mac user that fit the
artsy-fartsy, fashion-obsessed stereotype. Even that person
doesn't feel the need to change their values because they prefer
a particular brand of computer.

[themacolyte]

It's the details

It's not just a matter of style and marketing, it's attention to
detail that puts Apple above the rest IMHO. They always seem to
take that extra little step where other computer companies
(hardware or software) usually stop and declare success. It really
gives the impression that Apple has a culture of really caring
about the work they do. I rarely get that sense from Wintel
products and it shows. I'm apprehensive working with Windows
computers and don't trust anything they tell me in error dialogs
or claims of ability. At the helm of a Mac I feel more confident
that the developers didn't knowingly ship a crap product.

One section of the article is just silly... In the show and tell
example, the kids talking about their rocks are somehow
"telling" more than the kid showing the video? So speech is the
only acceptable form of communication? So much for this
message board, email, written language fad.

If you feel that what Apple promotes is marketing, constantly
improving the ability to "present" everything then you're finally
catching on to what computers are mostly used for. As with
most things, what was exceptable last year is not acceptable this
year. The bar is constantly raised. Hand me a report that was
typed up on a machanical typewriter and I'm going to look at
you funny. I know from experience that using Apple's products
gives a bit of polish to the work I do that the PC user's around
me don't have. Hmmm, maybe that's why I'm the manager...

And speaking of details... If the dimensions given for Dell's mini
desktop are correct then it is 8 times the size of the Mac mini,
not 2 times as reported in the article :)

One of the most substanceless piece of fiction i have ever read.

The same old arguments from those too scared to accept innovation and become part of the future. A bunch of babble about spectacle and beauty. When did thius become a bad thing? Apple gives everytday the people the power to create these things you reference. These things that we, as normal people, tend to view in awe. We load up a DVD and see a cool interactive menu with videos and images that dazzle and now Apple puts this ability in our hands with a simple drag and drop. How is this bad? Is there a problem with adding more abilities? The Macs have seemless media integration and iLife is one of the greatest things ever created as well as something you didn;t mention in your little price comparison. Not to mention the number one reason why Macs are lightyears ahead of all that is PC... OS X. The best operating system. Again the same old PC argument "it looks pretty". As if thats a bad thing. Who would want their BMW to be ugly, have few features and be hard to control?

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/AppleHaters.gif

Its amazing what people see.....

it really is amazing what people see. two people can watch the same movie and take completely different things from it. it is all dependant on you life experiences and the walls you have built up over time. these walls are what hold us back. they hide parts of us that we perceive to be weak.

Let me just say this. there is nothing wrong with enjoying something like a computer. if you have to be productive on it and use it everyday then i would pay extra to enjoy the experience. Phycologically its a fact that visually appealing things bring greater joy when used. its all part of the user experience and thats what you pay for. using my pc is depressive and i use it to get work done when i have to. i don't spend my spare time on it. but with my mac i find that i can't wait to creat something great, and i just don't want to get off it.

when you use a machine made with great care, you appreciate it, just like a good car. there is nothing wrong with seeing your computer as something more than a tool. especially if it can be seen as a source of inspiration.

A Mac is a Mac, not a PC

I don't agree with PC users being 'A' type users and Mac users 'B' type users. Personally, my reasons for using a Mac at home are mainly becuase it's just nice to use, nice to look at and easy to maintain (I have an iMac G5 20"). If I could use one in my job I would (although I do have a fast PC at home for games and heavy duty audio production).

I don't see a Mac as a competitor to a PC, they are completely different devices. The OS sets them apart completely.

I use the Mac for music, video, dvd, videochat, bluetooth syncing (Phone, Palm, iPod), surfing and email. All these tasks can be handled flawlessly by the new Mac Mini. It's a general purpose PC that does all your day to day stuff with elegance and reliability.

I think rather than comparing the Mini to cheap Dell boxes etc, you should think of it as a way to get an OSX device cheaper than previously. Windows is great for writing Windows apps and business software, but not so good for day to day stuff that people actually use their limited spare time for.

It's quite simply not a PC, and that's the point!

[188623886581987630340698777875]

Gateway Comparison?

I've seen quite a few bad Mac/PC comparisons, but this is
possible one of the worst.

The Gateway computer is a standard-sized desktop and is
nowhere near close to the size of the Mac mini. Whenever you're
making a smaller computer, it's going to cost more because of
its engineering and parts. Your comparison between a mini and
the Gateway 3250 is the equivalent of comparing prices of a
laptop and a desktop; in other words, completely asinine.

Also, the mini includes a better graphics card and up to one year
of support instead of the 90 days you get with the Gateway. And
as someone mentioned, you won't find the software equivalents
to iLife, Quicken 2005, and the two free games. Not to mention
OS X...

Also, from Gateway's website it appears that the 3250 does not
come with a drive that reads DVDs. It's hard to tell on this one,
but at least I can admit that my research isn't complete.

As I already stated, I'm most shocked that you would compare
such a small computer (hence the name mini) with a normal
desktop tower that is five times its size.

This article is TOTALLY pointless!

Mike, you just dont't get it!

Here it is in plain english:

THE MAC MINI IS DESIGNED FOR WINDOWS IPOD OWNERS WHO
USE A WINDOWS PC AND WHO ARE IN THE MARKET FOR AN
ENTRY LEVEL MAC.

THE WHOLE POINT OF THE MAC MINI IS THAT THESE PEOPLE CAN
NOW AFFORD AN APPLE MAC - WHICH THEY CAN CONNECT TO
THEIR EXISTING PC MONITOR KEYBOARD AND MOUSE!

What will this do for them and Apple?

Simply put:

IT WILL GIVE THESE WINDOWS USERS A FOOT IN THE DOOR TO
USING APPLE'S INNOVATIVE OS AND COMPUTERS, AND THE NEXT
LOGICAL STEP FOR THESE USERS IS THAT THEY WILL THEN
COMPARE WINDOWS WITH MAC OS X AND WILL REALISE HOW
SUPERIOR THE MAC OS IS, AND THEN THEY WILL BE HOOKED
AND THEIR DELL WILL BE USED LESS AND LESS UNTIL THEY
EVENTUALLY JUST STOP USING IT.

THAT is what the new mac mini is about abnd that is why you
don't get a monitor/keyboard and mouse - it is aimed users who
already use a windows pc or mac.


I seriously wonder whether you were actually at the keynote,
because the rubbish you come out with sounds like you were at
the EXTREMLEY imbarassing Bill Gates fiasco keynote the
previous week!

I have never laughed sooooo much - great one Bill!!!

[Jeff Lebowski 63]

Ignorant Sterotyping

Your stereotype of the typical Mac user based on Apple's
advertising and marketing image is way off the mark. What? Do
you figure that everyone who buys merchandice from The Gab is
as beautiful and shallow as the individuals that model their
clothing?

Yes, Apple uses style and fashion to market their products. Even
more so now than in the past. But, the typical Mac user does not
fit the stereotype you have conjured up in your mind based on
the company's PR.

In my 16 years as a Mac user I've know well over a thousand
other Mac users. Not a single one fits the stereotype you
describe. Most are like me, i.e. engineers, scientists and
technologists who are quite skilled using PCs (Windows and
DOS), but prefer Apple's operating system. Heck, I know at least
two dozen IT guys who administer Windows networks for a living
yet use only Macs at home.

Are there some Mac users who make their product choices based
on fashion and "making a statement"? Sure. But, that's not the
majority of Mac users. All the Mac users I know could care less
about the design of the cases or some BS fashion trend. They
would use Mac even if they had the same physical appearance as
PCs.

By the way, although you are entitled to your misperception of
Mac users, but implying that corporations (and their executives)
hawking PC-clones are somehow more noble than Apple and
Jobs is just silly.

In the end, I think you revealed a lot more about yourself and
your strange biases than you did about Mac users.

[Jeff Lebowski 63]

"The Gap"

Oops. I meant to say the "Gap" not the "Gab".

[technewsjunkie]

"Who puts a soundtrack to their family photos?" Says it all.

Imagination Mike, imagination. Get some.

Fundamental differences...

I think a major "miss" in this article is that the "fancy"
presentation Jobs shows off IS something that people like. When
it took an age to put it all together, few bothered. When they
did, people reacted as if the end result was "just like a
professional" display of home movies and pictures. People ate it
up. Now, despite the fact that people may become immune to
it, it is very easy for people to present their pictures and movies
in a slick and fancy way.

There have always been people who stuck photos in an album,
or a shoebox, and people who made fancy scrap-books with
captions and all sorts of fancy corners and embellishments.
What Apple has done with their latest iLife apps and their
computers, is to enable the people who make fancy scrap-books
into people who make digital versions of the same. Maybe they
have made it possible for some others who have always wanted
to be "fancy scrapbookers" but didn't have the knack.

I don't think Jobs is off the mark in saying that this sort of thing
is something that "mere mortals" want to do and to see. It has
just always been too damned complicated to do it right. Apple
is changing that.

[technewsjunkie]

Not simply about style. It's ease of use AND quality.

Not only are Apple products easy and FUN to use, they also
allow "mere mortals" to produce outstanding creations.

Macs are based on unix and you can take full advantage of it.

AND they are "just" stylish too.

Form AND function.