Comments on: NSA cooperation: OK for e-mail, IM companies?

White House wanted immunity for phone companies over possible cooperation with NSA, but new bill also would shield e-mail, IM providers.

[chris_d]

It started in early 2001, BEFORE SEPT 11

This program can't have anything to do with Sept 11, because it was set up beforehand.

Equipment for this secret government program was put in place in March 2001, accroding to a number of AT&T employees who have given sworn testimony as part of the class action suits against AT&T and Verizon.

In addition, recent court documents filed by the lawyer for former Qwest CEO Joe Nacchio assert that the NSA attempt to strong arm Nacchio into participating in a secret government program that both Nacchio and Qwest's general counsel believed to be illegal under the 1934 Telecommunications Act. When he refused, NSA and other agenencies retaliated by taking away contracts promised to Qwest. That kind of retailiation for refusing to play ball is par for the course for the crooked neocons.

I'm sure immunity will get rammed through as good for America, and things like customer privacy and freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures will be deemed "unAmerican" and "helping the tareists". 'Cause remember, if you don't give up your freedom, the tareists win!!!

When's the next bogus terror threat coming along? Oh yeah -- just as soon as Congress is ready to vote on this sham bill.

[mattumanu]

First it was habeas corpus , now it's this...

The checks and balances that made this country great are nearly gone. The Judicial system now has too much power, common people no longer have the right to petition a court with Habeas Corpus in a case of unlawful detention, unreasonable search and seisure is in question, and wiretapping is legal by loophole. Pretty soon, everyday people will have recourse before the government at all.

During the cold war, when the world was supposedly in danger every day from "commies" and nuclear war, we had all these rights. Now, we have nearly lost them all.

[Al57]

Habeas Corpus

Habeas Corpus doesn't apply to foreign terrorists. As far as I can tell, it never did. You are trying to treat these people like criminals. Also, read the Geneva Convention and you'll see that terrorists don't meet the requirements - it's an easy read. Just like we executed several German Saboteurs who came ashore in Florida in 1942, we are in full rights to hold these people in places like Guantanamo.

Your emotional responses that somehow all of our rights are gone is silly. If you would just read a bit, you'll see why. I suspect you have many more delusions involving Bush, Cheney, Rumsefeld, Haliburton, etc. that could be dealt with by using some Socratic thinking.

[samkass]

Constitutional?

How can this law possibly be constitutional? Didn't the companies involved violate constitutional rights by conspiring with the government? At least the first and fourth amendments have certainly been violated, and this would be a great time to drag out the oft-ignored 10th amendment.

Congress can't simply pass a law shielding people from civil rights abuse lawsuits... they'd have to change the constitution, wouldn't they?

[dondarko]

it's the war on terror stupid...

keep your mouth shut(ahem, be patriotic), don't question anything b/c it's all for your own good, etc. etc.

P.S. our founding fathers are turning over in their graves.

"give me liberty or give me death"
"those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither"
"live free or die!" - NH motto

[zanzzz]

Unconstitutional

There are so many problems with this legislation it is hard to understand why it is even being considered. How can crimes committed be made retroactively legal? How can unwarranted access to all forms of communication be Constitutional when no probable cause is even remotely demonstrated? Aside from the legal concerns there is the matter of practicality. If the NSA is free to data mine all communications how effective can search for a needle in a mountain of needles be? To date anyone that has had experience with covert data collection is usually of the opinion that it is vastly over rated as practical tool. Concentrating on known suspects and their contacts is one thing but what is very different is this proposed vast fishing expedition with no limits. What little conceivable gain that could be expected is far out weighed by the loss of privacy and the violence done to the Constitution. Without even knowing what methods are being used Congress seems willing to approve "a pig in a poke" to quote Republican Arlen Specter.
Anyone voting for this travesty of legislation will have violated their oath to uphold the Constitution and should be subject to recall or impeachment. There are limits to what the government is allowed to do in our representative democracy. This fundamental understanding is what the whole system is built on. Craven politicians are too quick to throw the baby out with the bath water with this disgraceful legislation.
"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom."
- Dwight Eisenhower

[dondarko]

"it's only a piece of paper'

to quote our current president.

[Al57]

It's legal because...

...one of the President's job is to protect the Constitution. In times of war, the Executive Branch has been given much leeway in performing surveillance - especially of foreign communications. It's not much more complicated than that - and it shouldn't be.

After 9/11, the Democrats complained that Bush didn't "connect the dots". These are the things that the Executive Branch has to to in order to connect the dots and stop attacks. It should be obvious. If something happens and we find out that the government didn't do their job, then people are going to be pissed.

I understand that there should be limits, but it sounds like the liberals want to draw the line such that 1) we'll be unable to stop some attacks and 2) our enemies will have a clear path to know where to exploit the system. In regards to anti-terrorist operations, we are no where near the point where people are worried about being surveilled. I would be much more worried about the attacks on Free Speech in universities than this stuff.

[aka_tripleB]

There needs to be someone to stop Bush and his administration

First off, someone rigged two elections for him to win. That's right I said both of them were rigged. We all know about the 2000 election, which I'm sure we all saw as a horrific conflict of interest with Bush's brother being the governor of the state that was having all sorts of problems counting the ballets. With the 2004 election, in Ohio there were people still casting ballets long after the polls were suppose to close. Like until 2 or 3 AM eastern time. I remember because I didn't sleep much in college and remember watching a news program and telling the night secrity guard that this isn't suppose to happen.

And know he's taking away everyone's rights in an "attempt" to "protect" us, when there has been how many other terrist plots against the nation where other presidents solved without taking away one of our rights. If he can't do it, then he should resign and we can get someone in office who can and will serve the nation. There is something bigger than this "War on Terror," and we need to stop it before it's too late.

[dondarko]

people wake up when it's too late

sadly

[apptec]

Read the story, you might learn something

Here is a quote from the main story:
"The broad language appears in new legislation that a Senate committee approved by a 13-to-2 vote on Thursday during a meeting closed to the press and public. It enjoys the support of the panel's Democrats and Republicans."

Your email should read tripleBS

[RAS1142]

SOMEONE TO STOP BUSH

STOPPING BUSH IS NOT THE PROBLEM, HE IS JUST ONE MAN THE PEOPLE TO STOP ARE THE CFR, TC GLOBAL ELITE,THESE ARE THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION,AN ALSO CLINTON'S. WHY DO YOU THINK HILLARY IS THE TOP CANDIDATE IN THE NATIONAL POLLS, THIS IS ALL MASS MEDIA DECEPTION, CONTROLLED BY THE CFR, TC GLOBALISTS THAT OWN THE MEDIA. AND BY CONTROL OF THE MEDIA THEY HAVE BE ABLE TO TAKE OVER OR GOVERNMENT, BY MISINFORMATION
AND THE BIGGEST COVERT OP. IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD. ALL I CAN SAY IS THESE GLOBAL ELITE HAVE PUT THEM SELFS ABOVE HUMANITY IN THEIR QUEST TO HAVE A ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, THEY WILL BE JUDGED BY THEIR CREATOR GOD ALMIGHTY. AND ALL THAT MONEY THEY HAVE AMASSED WILL BURN WITH THEM IN HELL.

[solrosenberg]

We're all neocons now

Remember, this is a bill supported by both Democrats and Republicans. Anyone who thought they were voting for change by handing Congress to the Democrats in 2006 is a sucker.

[fredmenace]

Completely agreed

I've been telling people this for the last few years: first, the Democrats have been weak in not being able to stem the tide of Republican power. Not only have they lacked a compelling enough message or candidates to win as much as they should, but they give in to political games when in office and don't stand their ground on important issues. Second, even when the Democrats do get their way, it turns out not to be much different from the Republicans anyway - policy still dictated by corporate lobbyists and campaign donations, government power and secrecy elevated above citizens' civil rights, international meddling by intelligence and military organizations, fear tactics and misinformation used to manipulate the population, etc.

Votes for the Greens and other alternatives are NOT why Democrats failed to win the White House, but more importantly, voters FAILING to support these alternative parties is a real contributor to us being in our current mess. People need to vote their conscience, not play games with voting for the slightly-less-bad "choice" among the two most-popular candidates.

You're right: we can't blame it all on the neocon Republicans inhabiting the White House. We have our own lazy, stupid, ignorant, selfish ***** to blame as well.

[dondarko]

welcome to the police state

and corporate governance(ahem... "Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." Benito Mussolini)

think
don't be spoonfed
don't be braindead
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

[dondarko]

To quote thomas jefferson

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance of the laws of our country."

[RAS1142]

220 YEARS AND SILL RELENT

THOMAS JEFFERSON NEW THE DANGER CORPORATISM,AND THE GLOBAL ELITE WITH THEIR MASS MEDIA DECEPTION,HAVE DONE WHAT WE WERE WARNED ABOUT. AND NOW THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE WAKING UP FROM THIS DECEPTION.I THINK ITS GOING TO TAKE A GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT ACROSS AMERICA SATE BY STATE, AND START WITH LOCAL GOVERNMENT TO STOP THESE CFR, TC GLOBALISTS, FROM FULFILLING THEIR AGENDA, FOR THE NORTH AMERICAN UNION, AND TO DELETE OUR CONSTITUTION. WE THE PEOPLE ARE STILL RELENT.

[Al57]

We're not a police state....

You guys ought to go to some other countries and look at the lack of freedoms for everyday people.

And they're not right-wing countries, it's the left wingers that are oppressive. Castro, Chavez, the old Soviets, etc.

People flock to the US and try to get away from leftist, liberal countries.

[Fremia]

try doing things out of the ordinary

that is all it takes to attract the attention of our government and possibly put you on a terrorist list.

In fact do these things:

1. check out a book on bombs
2. say random destructive words into your cell/ land-line phone
3. make a name for yourself on the internet as a radical/conspiracy theorist

These things are sure to get you on that list.

[fredmenace]

Somewhat true, but...

Just because we are still better than some other countries, is that a reason to be moving backward? Is this what we should be proud of, that "we're not as bad as North Korea or Cuba or the old Soviet Union...yet"?

The problem is that most people perceive that we have appearant freedom, but behind the scenes, that is being eroded.

The quality of information that most people receive is now very bad, so we don't have an informed populace. (Most people aren't smart or industrious enough to do their own research or analysis, instead relying on what they are told by major media outlets and official government proclamations.) It's not just Fox news, it's all the cable channels, all the network news, all the nightly news, the main new websites, nearly all major newspapers: we're routinely being misinformed and important stories are being downplayed, if they're reported on at all. Replacing that is a blend of misinformation and sensationalism meant to distract, outrage (usually over trivial things, like "wardrobe malfunctions", so we don't get outraged over truly important things) and manipulate.

Second, many rights we've taken for granted have been chipped away at, either through public perception campaigns intended to make people think we never had these rights in the first place (the RIAA/MPAA campaigns for their massive distortion of copyright is one example, as is the perception that terroristic threats justify various surveillance or security measures, the perception that corporations should have rights equal or superior to those of people, that investment income should be taxed less heavily than earned income, etc.), or else through covert programs where laws intended to stop precisely this kind of abuse can be flaunted, without anyone knowing about it.

The problem is not so much that we are an active police state right now, but rather that we are putting in place the legal and cultural prerequsites and building the infrastructure for a police state to come. So much so, that the transition to a true police state could possibly come with startling suddenness, when it is too late to easily do anything about it. The biggest problem is that everyone will be left scratching their heads, thinking "but I thought we were a free, democratic, peace-loving country, how and when did it all change?" The answer is that it has all ALREADY changed, but the "new and improved" America hasn't been formally unveiled - it's still in beta testing.