Comments on: Police Blotter: Defendant wins breathalyzer source code

Man charged with drunk driving says his attorney needs access to the source code to fight the charges; state supreme court agrees.

[njt07]

Accepting reponsibility

Someday, somewhere, someone will step up and say, "Yes i was a ******* and drove drunk, i will accept the consequences of my actions and recieve the just punishment." The federal court should make drunk driving attempted murder. How many people have died and been permanantly injured due to the people who think they can handle it.

[devbost]

What on earth...

...does this have to do with this story?

Nobody's disputing that drunk driving is a serious offense, but those accused of it have just as much right to defend themselves in court as everyone else.

[irondog1970]

Corporates must show responsibility as well

As pesky as the Bill of Rights can be to swift justice and severe vengeance, I do remember something about the the accused having a right to face their accuser. If the Intoxilyzer uses buggy firmware that results in inaccurate readings, then the accused has every right to question it. The company that makes the Intoxilyzer must be held responsible for its actions as well. Someday, somewhere, some company will step up and say, "Yes, we knew our product was faulty. But we have shareholders who will sell our stock in a heartbeat if we miss our mark in any quarter."

Holding both the accuser and the accused responsible for their actions is what helps create a society based on the rule of law. Otherwise, we'd be a police state. I for one prefer the former.

[nedmorlef]

i agree somewhat

the problem is you can blow .08 blood alcohol by gargling with listerine mouthwash or a cold beer.

i think they should raise the blood alcohol level to maybe .10 or .11 and then not plea bargain. better yet do it by weight to alcohol.

the system isn't set up to save lives. it's set up to the state's advantage. like confiscating cars and officers do get a commission on traffic citations you know.

in my drinking days i witnessed people's lives destroyed by the ideology that a 250lb plus man is impaired at .08. i can't in good concience ruin people over hysteria.

personally i think bars should be outlawed. buy your embalming fluid and puke on your own floor.

[pcailey1]

Well thought out eh?

This is a well thought out statement. While were at it, lets make taking your kids to McDonalds attempted murder too. I mean how many people have died and been permanently injured due to heart disease created by cholesterol clogging the arteries. I'd care to bet quite a bit more, eh?

[zevgoldman]

Courts

No federal court in the United States is empowered to make law. That power resides only with the Congress of the United States. Remember, we have three branches of government. Each has its own exclusive functions.
I don't know of any state court that makes law, either.

[steve4pro]

well this guy in particular yes he deserves it. however the amount of punishment for just having a few beers and then getting picked up is ridiculous. I am sorry but .08 is not so drunk that you are running over children drunk.

[falsedrunk]

Your opinion smells of rotten swine.

[squidburns]

and the people win another one

I am glad to hear that source code for detecting criminal behavior is starting to be released in a court of law. I have no respect what-so-ever for drunk driving or drunk drivers. On the other hand if there are no checks and balances for devices that can determine guilt or innocence then some innocent persons can become victims of their own tax-paid justice system.

The fact that the 'breath-o-matic' is based on a z80 microprocessor is a laff at best. They might as well use my commodore 64 playing jumpman...

_s

[ralfthedog]

Does not require speed.

My guess is that this device is just some sensor feeding a DAC. 32 samples per second would do great for this.

The question I ask myself is, "Why would they need custom software?". 99 out of 100 times off the shelf solutions work best.

I would like to see the software myself I would bet that it is under commented and has lots of stuff like "if (0==1) {....}

[Renegade Knight]

Neither Here nor There

Your comments though valid, don't really fit the topic.

The issue is the source code of the machine that tests if the guy was drunk or not. By the law, he was or wasn't. The machine needs to be accurate.

[bridge solution]

source of ethics

chemical analysis of blaood alcohol content has been being done since before 1800.
the only differences from the "antiuqe" s&w 900 that have been implemented, at increasingly high tax-payer expense are technolgies to remove operator interference.
the computations are high school chemistry.
at some point technology is about communication, not complication.

[Cpl_Punishment]

Before 1800?

That's a rather absurd claim. You need to cite your sources on that one. Before 1800 science hadn't even identified carbon as an element, nor was there anything like quantitative analysis.

[Renegade Knight]

That Z80

Is a great chip for a lot of devices that don't need a lot of processing power.

I agree, it's a good thing the source code is out. As an Engineer everthing I do right down to my calculations can be called into question in a court. Software and the professionals who right it are no different. Even if they think they are.

[jasper89408]

Renegade Knight

As an Engineer (you didn't specify what kind) I beleive people "write" programs... not "right" them..
you missed a few commas, as well.....
Sounds like too many "edumacated professionals" I have to deal with on a daily basis in the construction industry; (that I have to correct in the field.)
GO BOOK SMARTS!!!!
(No field experience!!!)

[cpopken]

Write not right

You are an Engineer and you can't even spell WRITE correctly. That is scary!

[bkblair]

Opens Up Whole New Can Of Worm!

What's next?

Radar Gun software the next time someone gets a ticket?

Traffic Lights software the next time someone claims it short-cycled on them and that's why they ran it?

C'mon this is a story about a drunk driver that actually got caught and is fighting for his sorry life with a defense attorney trying to make a name for himself.

Determining if someone is legally drunk at the scene is not that hard to determine these days.

US law should MANDATE a blood test on the spot to go along with this breathalyzer test to put an end to this issue.

[rpmyers1]

Except it's needed

They've already shown that the ticketing area for some of the lights is *BEHIND* the stop line, so you could have stopped and still gotten ticketed.

Code used for enforcing laws *must* be made available. Otherwise you lost the right of facing your accuser.

[nedmorlef]

how bout we constitutionalize our laws again

i haven't drank in 10 years and i can't pass the physical part of a field sobriety test.
stop forcing blood,hair and urine from the body which, is unconstitutional no matter what a politically correct supreme court says. then, just outlaw any aroma of alcohol on the breath or in the automobile. seal all containers and make it a violation to transport a broken seal.
outlaw bars and by the drink alcohol.
essentially what they have done is set up a complex money making system for the state and insurance companies and are doing nothing to save lives or help people. which is basically what the war on drugs is all about.

[Clouseau2]

This country is nuts

We the right to examine the source code on breathalizers, but the source code on voting machines, the very foundation of our democratic principles, is "proprietary" and may not be examined. Don't worry, the extreme right wing owners of the voting machine companies don't have any interest in the outcome of the elections!

[Clouseau2]

This country is nuts

We the right to examine the source code on breathalizers, but the source code on voting machines, the very foundation of our democratic principles, is "proprietary" and may not be examined. Don't worry, the extreme right wing owners of the voting machine companies don't have any interest in the outcome of the elections!

[sholmes01]

Re: Opens Up Whole New Can Of Worms

I disagree. I think that I have a right to examine how the breathalyser calculates how intoxicated I am.

Roadside blood tests? Yeah, I could see that going south real fast. People could argue with the chain of custody on the blood sample as it goes to the lab, or that it was contaminated, or that they got an infection from having their blood drawn on the side of a road.

[Renegade Knight]

Mandate Blood Test

Most States do require that you submit to a blood test if it's requested. The state may not request one. If they did, the defendant would have the right to the source code to the software running the equipment that measures the blood alcohol level.

[Clouseau2]

This country is nuts

We the right to examine the source code on breathalizers, but the source code on voting machines, the very foundation of our democratic principles, is "proprietary" and may not be examined. Don't worry, the extreme right wing owners of the voting machine companies don't have any interest in the outcome of the elections!

[Renegade Knight]

Precedent:

The precedent set by this case may very well open up firmware for other things like voting machines.

[casanavelaw]

But is it?

Most states DUI/DWI laws refer to "Blood Alcohol" not "Breath Alcohol". Each person has a blood alcohol to breath alcohol ratio. The average (mean) is 1:2100. The Intoxylizer assumes that this mean ratio is everyone's ratio. In reality this is nothing more than an average. In fact the Nebraska Supreme Court recognized this back when a Commodore 64 was "cutting edge" technology.

Nobody is bleeding into the intoxylizer.

[casanavelaw]

All breath testing is based on a lie!

Most states DUI/DWI laws refer to "Blood Alcohol" not "Breath Alcohol". Each person has a blood alcohol to breath alcohol ratio. The average (mean) is 1:2100. The Intoxylizer assumes that this mean ratio is everyone's ratio. In reality this is nothing more than an average. In fact the Nebraska Supreme Court recognized this back when a Commodore 64 was "cutting edge" technology.

Nobody is bleeding into the intoxylizer.

[jasper89408]

oops

misspelled believe.

[Had_to_be_said]

"Drunk Driving" IS NOT the issue.

NO ONE is advocating "drunk driving". Nor, is ANYONE truly excusing, or minimizing the dangers of "drunk drivers".

So, that is, simply, NOT the real-issue. Anyone that keeps harping on that point, in this case, is clearly trying to confuse the REAL issue with a blatant RED-HERRING, ...or has some serious, personal, comprehension-problems.

The simple fact is that "citizens" DO have a "right" to question automated-techniques used by "law-enforcement" to obtain "criminal-convictions". THAT, is what was decided by this court... NOT innocence, nor guilt, nor moral-responsibility, nor societys right to protect itself from dangerous-criminals.

And, I totally agree with this ruling. The, very real, nightmare of "police-officers" being allowed to effectively point a -magic box- at you and obtain a virtually unquestioned "conviction"... is an absolute abomination to America, Freedom, Justice, or any legitimate form of "due process".

It DOES NOT mean that the "guilty" will walk-free... It merely insures that the innocent are treated fairly.

[lewissalem]

Breathalyzer inaccuracy.

I've played around with one of the breathalysers the police use, and it was off a lot of the time. The amount of alcohol on your breath does not equal your intoxication level.

I would take a big sip of wine, blow into it, and it would register a .60, which is death. I feel that we must release the source code so we know the methods in which we are being arrested. If we allow ourselves to be filmed, then there should be some transparency on the law enforcement end as well.

[md1700]

Breathalyzer inaccuracy

I'm not sure which instrument you were playing around with, but I'd have to disagree. The Intox5000 *is* accurate. If you take a "big sip" of wine and blow into the instrument, you would be violating the testing procedures. The officer must verify the subject has not taken anything by mouth for at least 15 minutes. Otherwise, there would be a slope error. I've used the Intox5000, the Intox8000, the old PEI, and the Auto-I. These things are accurate, but the officer has to be trained to give the test. They just don't shove a tube in your face and tell you to blow into it.

[kens519]

Need to understand how to preform testing

The first thing I noticed was you did not follow the instructions which came with your breathalyzer or did not receive them. You are not suppose to take a sample immediately after taking a drink because it will read to high as your result showed. You need to wait 20 minutes after drinking to get the best sample/ result. Read the Manual

[jimbothedriver]

These things are inaccurate

I drive for a car service company, and many of our clients have DUI's on their record. Most people tell me nightmare horror stories about their experience when getting pulled over and having to blow in a breathalyzer. Often people are asked to blow into them several times until the police officers get the "number" that they want before they actually arrest them. Some of my clients have blown into those things anywhere from 4 to 7 times, and THEN they got the handcuffs and were arrested. These things are totally inaccurate. The only true way to determine someone's BLOOD alcohol level, is to test, well duh! their BLOOD!!!

[bkblair]

This DD is In Jail Today Based Only On Common Sense

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/197292.html

Let's hope there's more and more of this occuring.

[Zarr257]

Death

You everything changes when that drunk driver runs over one of your family members and kills them...Then its why didn't the police do something to get this drunk off the road. I want y'all to remember that at one point in time you tied our hands and took away our ability to do so. Remember this when you are at the grave site of one of your love ones that has been murdered by a drunk driver...

[dah1113]

What?

This has to do with source code how?

[paulej]

And too many innocent people go to jail...

I would agree that we should punish drunk drivers. But, what if there are proven flaws in the software?

Making the source code available will either help to prove it's very accurate or prove that it is not.

Seems reasonable to me.

[muskratboy]

just because YOU'RE an idiot with no convictions

... doesn't mean i am.

my opposition to the death penalty doesn't change just because someone i know is murdered.

either something wrong or right... just because something happens to ME doesn't change that.

oh, and you're an idiot. whoops, i said that already. but really... idiot.

[magoo_jones]

Awesome

This is a great win for defense attorneys and defendants across the nation. Finally CMI is forced to cough up the source code and let everyone know how they have been arriving at their bogus conclusions. They won in Florida and now they've lost in MN. Jeffrey Sheridan is a terrific lawyer with the balls to take on this corrupt system. Kudos to him and all who continue to fight for justice. Now what is done with the source code remains to be seen. Maybe it will be completely clean and full of trustworthy algorithms, but I believe not. This company has been scamming the nation for a long time and deserves exactly what it's getting, full disclosure. There is no reason to keep anything secret in a court of law. We're after the truth in the final analysis right? We're not in the business of filling up MADD's overly fat and arrogant pocket-books are we? I thought not...

[magoo_jones]

Not as many as you think...

http://www.duiblog.com/2007/07/30/most-dangerous-drunk-drowsy-or-distracted/

[muskratboy]

yes, yes, we all know you don't support drinking and driving everybody

seriously, i think we can do without every freaking person throwing in the "of course i don't condone drinking and driving."

yes, and i don't condone burning kittens. or axe murder. or axe murdering kittens.

let's just all ASSUME that most people aren't condoning DUI. i'm sure we can agree that we can debate this issue without thinking DUI is a peachy keen idea.

[toomchstout]

Speeding tickets

This opens the door completely to challenge any speeding ticket you may have gotten ever.

[bluemist9999]

Even with the source code

How do you determine it is accurate? And to what level does it need to be accurate for the conviction to be upheld?

Proving a program does what it is supposed to do is the hardest branch of computer science.

It's likely a small piece of embedded software, written in Z-80 assembly language, with some lookup tables to match sensor inputs to BAC outputs.

If so, then the defense could challenge the calibration tables.

So, where does this end?