Comments on: National ID card a disaster in the making

Security experts Richard Forno and Bruce Schneier say Homeland Security is committing a blunder of historic proportion.

[JonNearSeattle]

DHS is accepting comments on Real ID until May 8

DHS' open commenting period on the draft Real ID regulations is a great way to take part in the debate. The deadline is May 8. See http://www.privacycoalition.org/stoprealid/ for more on how to submit comments.

Also, we're blogging about Real ID on http://stoprealidnow.blogspot.com

[scdecade]

Tricky except not really

To participate is to accept the legitimacy of the process. Anybody who cannot see what a national ID is a precursor to is utterly lobotomized.

[WDS2]

Nuclear power plant visits

"Are there really so many members of the American public just "dropping by" to visit a nuclear facility that it's become a primary reason for creating a national identification system? Are such visitors actually admitted?"

Actually, yeah. At the 25 (?) year anniversary of the opening of a local nuclear power plant and while they were refueling it the public could come in for tours. We had to provide driver's license number so they could check us out beforehand. It was really quite cool.

[bobbydi]

National ID? Only For Law Breakers

The illegals will only buy fake IDs- if anything.
FEMA does not enforce the immigration laws now and does not have enforcement powers- what will a FEMA agent do when an illegal simply walks away? Many federal employee ignores FEMA now. Hurricane Katrina was a good example- the other
federal agencies and the state agencies and others did their own programs for helping the victims- who needs FEMA?

[attilad]

What article did YOU read?

What the hell does FEMA have to do with DHS and National IDs?

[HerbHoover]

National ID Card is great for the Bad Guys

What's funny is that the bad guys _really_ want this!
If this is enacted, all a bad guy has to do is get a fake card and their golden.
"You're a cool dude, you've got the new DHS card! Come on in!"

In other words for the bad guys this is the best thing that can happen.

And besides that, how fast do you think somebody will compromise the "It's Really not a National ID Card(tm)" database and make off with all of that juicy data?
Do you think the Russian spammers are drooling over that one?

You can thank Oracle for this fiasco.
Who do you think is selling the govt the database infrastructure? This has been Ellison's wet dream since 9/11.

[Burnsie001]

Yes, brilliant idea!

The more you trust the card, the more valuable it will be to crims. The more value to crims, the more its worth to other crims, so the more effort gets put into faking it.

Its a way of giving the smarter criminals a free pass. The Nazi Germans suffered the same problems in WWII. They relied very heavilly on their documentation. They trusted it and a good forger could move around the country at will. The high quality of the Nazi's identification documents became their undoing.

There is a really great holocaust survival stories told by a Jewish man who used the forging of documents to escape from Nazi authorites. He used to eat in german military kitchens because once he showed the right documents, no further checking was done.

This is going to be a fantastic boon to the illegal imigrants, terrorists, criminals and anyone else who needs to escape notice from the autorities.

So where do I buy one? Come on, I need to earn a living wage.

[garrena]

National ID - don't we already have one

called a "passport?" Issued by the US Dept. of State.

[BelchSpeak]

Schneier Is a Tool

If Balding Brucie is against it, it must be a pretty good policy. It seems that there is no concrete objection on security grounds to DHS's simple plan of being able to access all State ID Databases at once. Other than social stigma, blathering about gaming the system as if its never happened before, or playing the big government fear card.

Balding Brucie doesn't think that killing 3000 Americans is justification for government making common sense decisions to root out terrorists. He whines and laments about "emotional" decisions that were made after watching fellow Americans jump to their screaming deaths after planes hit the towers.

Schneier is wrong on data mining.
He is wrong on linking law enforcement databases.
His girly second-guessing is wrong and puts lives in danger.

[enovikoff]

Shrub-sucker's comments

Ad hominem (personal) attacks against someone always indicate that the attacker doesn't have a good argument but has to resort to putting down the person who made it in order to make their point. In this case, would you rather give your power away to a President Shrub and his corrupt cadre that have killed over 200,000 Iraqi citizens (mostly noncombatants, "innocents" in the Shrub Talk.) So, who's really the terrorist? It depends on which country you're standing in. If it's not the USA, then the consensus among the world's citizens is that Prez Shrub is the terrorist. Now, would you give your personal information to a *terrorist*? That should keep you awake at night.

[smarty_pantz]

Good argument: "balding" & "girly"...

Good argument: "balding" & "girly"...

I think you forgot "poo-poo-head" in your closing arguments.

[protagonistic]

RE: Schneier Is a Tool

Funny how people who have no real argument resort to personal
attacks to try and prove their point. Attitudes like yours just
prove that the terrorists have already won. Their aim was to get
us to change our way of life and they have accomplished that.
Bruce is right on the mark with much of his analysis. Doing the
wrong thing is just as bad as doing nothing.

The price of freedom has always been high, which is why we
have so many people in this country unwilling to pay that price.
If you want cradle to the grave protection then perhaps this is
not the country for you. Such is not possible in a truly free
society.

[donniebnyc]

What a fool you are

You are another victim of this administration's theatre of fear. The decisions to start an illegal war, end habeas corpus, torture prisoners, and spy on Americans were not made in the "emotional" aftermath of 9/11. They were cold and calculated decisions to cynically exploit a people's fear and patriotism after a national tragedy.

It seems to me that the "girly emotional" response to 9/11 is to give up one's rationality and to allow an administration manned by criminals free reign to do whatever they want without criticism or question.

I watched the towers fall from my roof, not on TV. My response is to think even more about what my government does. It is not to blindly accept every reduction in my freedoms because I'm afraid. If we live every day in fear, especially because our government is constantly selling it to us, than the terrorists truly have won.

[Dr_Zinj]

Disasterous Police State in the Making

A national ID = a national database. And the ability to track people means the ability to control them. Only the ignorant think otherwise.

Look at your social security number as an example. Half the problem with identity fraud is the massive misuse of SSNs for identification purposes, and that's just by other government agencies. If you trust Uncle Sam to always use your data properly, you're not living in the real world.

Right now I have the freedom to walk across this country with nothing but the money in my pockets and the cloths on my back. Every damn novel you can find about the future where there is a 'national ID card' shows an oppressive society. Not one of them is a utopia, and not one of them would you trade for our current society.

And let's look at a viable alternative, biometrics. If they already have your genetic code, retinal pattern, fingerprint, nose print, facial topography, etc. on file, they don't need an ID card. They scan you, they check you against the database, they give you access. It's that plain and simple. There is NO NEED for you to carry a chip, electronic passport, or plastic card version of the "paper's please" response.

Couple of very apropo quotes from Abraham Lincoln:
"Our defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as a heritage of all men, in all lands, everywhere. Destroy this spirit and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors."
and
"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
The Patriot Act was the beginning of the End of the Great American Empire.

[Travis Ernst]

More ID changes

Shocked me last night. Last time I had seen a MIL (Military) ID it
was your classic laminated paper with picture, typewriter for
Name and ID info. NOW, the new ones are Hard plastic, slot so
you can Clip it on your collar/pocket. CHIP inside (visable on the
face) containing who knows what (medical and other). I thought
they would be LAST to change.

This last paragraph puts pressure on the states to "conform or
else". Those that don't meet the standards will be a flashing red
light. You'll have to provide a secondary ID for some purposes
(passport!) government related who may demand the Real ID
card and or other Federal issued Picture ID.

[normdaley]

Replace Homeland with Fatherland

Try making this change and read the article. It sounds eerily familiar.

[Stating]

We Know How Well Border Security Is Working

The issue of the Real ID card is just a diversion to make people stop talking about REAL border security. With a million people coming over the borders illegally per year and illegals flaunting their illegality in public, a card is just a joke.

You have cities like San Fran Sicko publicly supporting illegal immigration and stating they will refuse to cooperate with Federal officials. So what good is a piece of paper? Do you think Gavin Newsom is going to make you show your Real ID card? Hell no, he will isssue his own card. Same thing for LA's mayor. He marches in solidarity with illegals.

If the Feds crack down and throw Newsom and Villaraigosa in jail for treason, then maybe we can talk about Real ID. Until then, it is just a smoke screen.

[GreyClaw]

Isn't it Interesting that...

Whenever this issue is raised that the people who come out against it, don't come with any substantive alternatives? Their only seems to be hyperbole and rhetoric.

"Oh no! That can't work! blah, blah, blah, George Orwell..., blah, blah, blah, 'Big Brother'..., blah, blah, blah, slippery slope..., blah, blah, blah,"

How about suggesting an alternative, hmmm?

I'm not fully sold on the idea yet either, but not because some belief that the future is going to be some dark work of goose-stepping Warsaw Pact Soviet-Like existence.

My concerns stem from three areas:
1. Security requires three things lacking in more and more people these days, applied common sense, diligence and honesty.

Those three things alone could've prevented 9/11, and would severely curb any major security threat.

2. The Government spends a ridiculous amount of money to do (still) things on the cheap. Being in Massachusetts, I can mention "Big Dig" (to people from other countries, even) as an example of Gov't waste most people would understand what I mean.

Lastly 3. I believe the reasons for doing this probably follow this ratio 65% making the planners/implamenters of the system wealthy, and 35% for making the country safer.

That said, I still think that if done properly, A national ID Card For American Citizens, and one for legal Residents, (and no one else) that is valid everywhere, and that is backed up by biometrics is a viable solution

That one card should tie into all your records but all of those records chould Not be available at every point of inquiry. So law enforcement could access only the criminal history portion, while applying for a weapon license or a high security job would only access the criminal and basic medical areas. Also, the requests for this info would be logged as well.

My example is very simplified, but it is still a step that can be refined, and is still better than the BS statis Quo that we have.

The arguments re: gov't abuse are valid but to those I say this, Don't you think that the Govt has always done, and will continue to do those things that you fear already? Every govt does.

The thing is, if we were all more conscious of security we would be able catch our govt abusing it the same way we would catch any other criminal.

[NoVista]

Catch-22?

"if we were all more conscious of security we would be able catch our govt abusing it the same way we would catch any other criminal."

I admire your optimism about catching the government abusing ReadID or anything else.

Can you say:

Bush, Cheney,Rove, Rumsfeld,Ashcroft, Gonzales, "Scooter", Tenet, Feith, Wolfowitz et al [a cast bigger than C.B deMille!] and then consider how long it's taken just to begin to rake the dirt of lies and disinformation, all in the name of ~national security~ [~~ sneer quotes deliberate]?

"common sense, diligence and honesty" -- I've been waiting for years, wake me when they turn up, eh?

[NoVista]

Catch-22?

"if we were all more conscious of security we would be able catch our govt abusing it the same way we would catch any other criminal."

I admire your optimism about catching the government abusing ReadID or anything else.

Can you say:

Bush, Cheney,Rove, Rumsfeld,Ashcroft, Gonzales, "Scooter", Tenet, Feith, Wolfowitz et al [a cast bigger than C.B deMille!] and then consider how long it's taken just to begin to rake the dirt of lies and disinformation, all in the name of ~national security~ [~~ sneer quotes deliberate]?

"common sense, diligence and honesty" -- I've been waiting for years, wake me when they turn up, eh?

[NoVista]

Catch-22?

"if we were all more conscious of security we would be able catch our govt abusing it the same way we would catch any other criminal."

I admire your optimism about catching the government abusing ReadID or anything else.

Can you say:

Bush, Cheney,Rove, Rumsfeld,Ashcroft, Gonzales, "Scooter", Tenet, Feith, Wolfowitz et al [a cast bigger than C.B deMille!] and then consider how long it's taken just to begin to rake the dirt of lies and disinformation, all in the name of ~national security~ [~~ sneer quotes deliberate]?

"common sense, diligence and honesty" -- I've been waiting for years, wake me when they turn up, eh?

[asmodee]

Why bother?

All this talk about illegal immigration has me a little confused. The way things or going, it'll be Americans sneaking across the boarder in the middle of the night to escape to a better life in a couple of decades. Why not let immigrants in? Hell, it'll be nice to have a few Mexican friends once China starts citing America for human rights violations and we're all going to Mexico hand in hand anyway (well, I'm sure it will be kind of hard to hold hands while running for the boarder, avoiding the mines, jumping the fence and getting shot at, but you get the point).

In all seriousness, I just love the claims that this is not a national ID card. Yeah, and the Social Security number will be used only for the collection and distribution of Social Security...and to open bank accounts...and to get a business permit...and to get a loan...and to get gas hooked up at your house...and for the police to identify you if you don't have your ID with you. No government can resist the temptation to take what we have grown to accept and push it a little further. We should actually THANK identity thieves for stopping the Social Security number from becoming that national identifier. It isn't stopped completely (there are those still trying here and there), but it's pretty much a dead horse now with security concerns. So now, we accept that "driving is a privilege, not a right". We accept (for some reason) that our driver's license is required at times when we are not driving. How long before we accept that walking on a public street automatically means being able to present nationally approved ID on demand? How long before we accept that being born in America automatically means consent to collect a DNA sample and match it with a name and Social Security number or some future form of identification? Should we just start assigning driver's license numbers at birth now? That would certainly make it easier to track a person their entire lives. "Sorry, ma'am, but your baby doesn't have ID. I'm afraid he can't board the plane."

The Democrats and the Republicans are working together to kill freedom in this country. The Democrats take the guns so the citizens can't do anything about it when the Republicans take your freedom. The only real difference between the two is what kind of power they want and what freedoms they would like to kill. We're long past the time when we should have elected the first black president or the first woman president. The only thing that could possibly help this country now is if we elected the first poor president.

[c.v.parker]

Police State

The United States is Following in the footsteps of Nazi Germany in the thirties. They used the same reasoning and logic to impose the same controls the the DHS would like. I fought in a war WWII to eliminate such actions. Now we have our own home grown NAZIES doing the same thing for the same reason. We are now one of the most restrictive and least FREE peoples in the world.

[TurboFool]

Is there really ANY benefit?

I see this as similar to DRM and copyright protection. Those who are honest and law-abiding will be the most inconvenienced, while those we should really be worried about can easily get around it.

Plenty of average joes will be stuck in the category of being branded as outsiders. For the reasons noted, whether it's their states refusing to participate, or them being unable to acquire a national ID due to some silly complication (I know plenty of people who have utility bills addressed to PO boxes or family member's homes or businesses for any number of reasons who have trouble with simpler tasks), there will be tons of honest people who get branded as suspicious because they don't have this national ID card.

But now suppose you're a terrorist, or someone who has reason to be dishonest, and you need fake identification to help you get somewhere where you can carry out your evil plan. Are you going to be foolish enough to get one of the suspicion-raising non-national IDs, or are you going to use the likely major resources your organization has at their disposal to easily fake the documents you need to get the national ID that nobody will blink at? It's a no-brainer, right? So now all of the dangerous people have the better ID, and all of the safe people are the ones getting looked at twice at security checkpoints.

I'm not the doom-and-gloom privacy type who's scared of the national ID. Personally I think the idea of a single, standardized ID card that could eventually allow me to easily tie many different payment accounts and accesses together into one neat package is pretty darn cool. My main objection here is simply the fact that this massive expenditure made in the name of safety will, in the end, not provide any additional safety. I have no interest in my tax dollars being thrown away like that.

[elallred]

Is any ID scheme fullproof?

It seems to me that before we discuss national identity cards, we should let the gurus of identity propose a scheme that will result in a nearly infallible identification which is unique to the individual.
National Id cards are probably not the answer and neither are passports, unless they contain features not yet present in these documents.
Identity is created at birth. Identity means name, date of birth, place of birth, parental names. It seems to me that a truly secure and useful ID system must contain this information and that the birth certificate must somehow be tied in.
No sense in setting up an identity fraud protection system until we have the fundamentals of identity secure in hand

[paulej]

Real ID Just Might Be Dangerous

Do you know what's worse than proving your identity? Proving that you are not the person who used a fake ID card.

I've been struggling with this issue with the state of Indiana now for 5 years. Those idiots at the BMV in Indiana have long-since learned that I am who I say I am and that the three (count them, three!) ID cards they issued to three different people are bogus. Even so, they don't have a way to deal with it, so I get shafted.

It's not very safe for me to drive. I have a valid driver's license in my state and a suspended license in a state where I don't live or even visit. End result: a police officer can take me to jail simply for driving on a suspended license, because he does not know who is telling the truth. Is it me, or is it the state of Indiana?

It scares me to death to think that our mindless, robotic government employees will look in their computers and say, "It was you. Your ID was presented."

I think the idea of a "secure" national ID card system is broken. It gives a false sense of security, it will likely make it more difficult for people who are victims of ID theft, and hackers will have a field day with this system.

Paul

[Inetsec]

Grizzly Adams....

Has anyone else other than me noticed that Bruce would look a heck of a lot like Grizzly Adams if he grew his hair out a bit?

Seriously folks, the whole damn National ID card thing is flawed on many many fronts. I'll name just a few but the list is nearly endless:

1. There are no readers installed anywhere nor will there be by the time the cards are issued
2. Security of the cards are still in question
3. security of the "proposed" system has not been vetted yet - - 'cause it hasn't been built yet
4. Access to said data base has been designed
blah blah blah......

This was a "feel good" tactic that some bonehead dreamed up. Without some serious funding and hopefully testing - - it will never fly.

I've been against the idea from the start.

[peter_j_knight]

ID? Lots of it!!

In this Latin American country there are about four ID numbers for every person: (1) National Identity Document(issued by government - federal) - (2) ("Cedula") - issued by Federal Police (3)'Unique Tax Identification Codea - (4) take your pick: Military Enrollemnt Book (if you were under 18 at any time before Military Service was abolished) - or the female equivalent "Voting Book --- Passpurt (which could, but not necessarily, correlate with the Cedula Fedreal --- a Provincial (State) issued ID - if you have been alive at when Provinces still issued them)
A Total Disaster? Not really - and there is not much 'safety in numbers' as the tracking system works quite well... but if there would be an all-encompassing-super-all-your-data document (it was proposed) then yes, it would be.

[Expat type]

Not in my lifetime....

Americans never needed this before, and not now either...
It won't make a difference to the bad guys...
It is simply a control on honest citizens which we do not need..
I will go to jail before I get one...
So now I have to decide which drivers license to use, Mexican,
Dubai or Thai...

[Burnsie001]

3000 is nothing

Over 90,000 US citizens died last year because of mistakes by medical practitioners. You should be hunting down your doctors not your terrorists.

[gdgroves]

My, My, My. Someone has something to hide

I am completely for a full proof national identity card. I am not worried about my privacy. I will sacrifice that if necessary if it makes us all safer. The only problem is, it has to be a full proof, non-counterfeitable card.

[MSSlayer]

Full(sic) proof?

Safety is an illusion.

If you are so cowardly that you would give up the essence of what defines a persons life, just to feel safe, then you should consider moving to China.

You don't deserve freedom.

The "If you have nothing to hide " argument is tired and wrongheaded. It is also what allowed repressive regimes to come into power. But you seem to want to live in a soviet style system.

[MSSlayer]

oh

And nothing is full(sic) proof, but you are a fool and a coward.