Comments on: Alternative browsers pose challenge for cybersleuths

The advent of Firefox and Opera means cybercops have to learn new tricks to conduct successful investigations.

OH NO !!!!!

Really, BFD.

I've defended C/NET in the past. But this IS a non-story. Different software solutions store data in different places. That's a 40+ year old story.

Or is it complaining that the public is obstructing justice, by not laying themselves bare for the authorities? One day, the cops/feds will actually have the same tehcnological acumen of a 12-year old geek - maybe.

[Scott W]

too late

they are already technically inept. windows has done that to them ;)

OH NO !!!!!

Really, BFD.

I've defended C/NET in the past. But this IS a non-story. Different software solutions store data in different places. That's a 40+ year old story.

Or is it complaining that the public is obstructing justice, by not laying themselves bare for the authorities? One day, the cops/feds will actually have the same tehcnological acumen of a 12-year old geek - maybe.

[Scott W]

too late

they are already technically inept. windows has done that to them ;)

[System Tyrant]

Suck it up.

I hope the file structure doesn't confuse them to much. :)

I suppose you could say it's another good reason not to use IE, but they can still find that information in Firefox they just have to learn to do it and maybe work a little harder.

[System Tyrant]

Suck it up.

I hope the file structure doesn't confuse them to much. :)

I suppose you could say it's another good reason not to use IE, but they can still find that information in Firefox they just have to learn to do it and maybe work a little harder.

[jnorichards]

Open source makes it easy

I don't understand why it would be hard to figure out how open source browsers store any of this information. The fullest possible detail is there in the code: use the source, Luke!

[jnorichards]

Open source makes it easy

I don't understand why it would be hard to figure out how open source browsers store any of this information. The fullest possible detail is there in the code: use the source, Luke!

[Breezy1601]

why is this a story?

If a bunch of lazy ***** cannot figure out what files to look at it's their problem. Oh that the world were just one unified place and we all wore white shirts and black pants. I guess then these guys jobs might allow them one more doughnut in the morning.

And these guys pass themselvces off as investigators??? That alone cracks me up.

[Breezy1601]

why is this a story?

If a bunch of lazy ***** cannot figure out what files to look at it's their problem. Oh that the world were just one unified place and we all wore white shirts and black pants. I guess then these guys jobs might allow them one more doughnut in the morning.

And these guys pass themselvces off as investigators??? That alone cracks me up.

[JorisEvers]

This was a story to me because....

When I heard that investigators had trouble dealing with multiple browsers when doing their digging through PCs, I couldn't stop thinking about it and thought it made an interesting angle to the browser story.

... but not really...

It isn't any surprise that "forensic computer
experts" aren't up to speed. Law enforcement
rarely means cutting edge technologists. It is
obvious to anyone that's been using computers
for any length of time that different
applications do things differently -- especially
where they keep stuff.

This shouldn't be a surprise to the cops. Heck
-- what if someone alters the application to
store the information elsewhere (or not log it
at all)? Does it not seem silly that a law
enforcement officer wouldn't expect that a
reasonably intelligent criminal (there must be a
few) would change the rules?

If that's the best they can do, what happens
when the criminal uses a live-cd and, possibly,
uses an encrypted USB key for their nefarious
ditties? No trace on the PC, and good luck
finding something on the key -- if you can find
the key at all (not only small, but often built
into other things like lighters, belt buckles,
and rubber duckies)...

[nuopus]

not a browser story

thing is ... this story has nothing to do with or shows any new angle to the browser wars.

This story is about computer illiterate investegators who do not seem to know that ALL programs are created differently and lack the skills to compensate or REALLY investegate.

It shows that I can get away with things simply by using a file format they don't understand and create my own encryption because they cannot snoop well beyond the capabilities of the pre-canned software they can run.

If anything this story emphasizes the need for law enforcement to "get a clue" when investegating computers. Personally if a loved one was hurt and evidence is on a bad guys PC, I would feel frustrated because some idiot cops really lack the ability to uncover evidence simply because their programs don't know about a new program the bad guy was using.

So, to anyone who has a clue about how computer programs work ... this story serves only to poke fun of non computer literate sucker police investegators.

[JorisEvers]

This was a story to me because....

When I heard that investigators had trouble dealing with multiple browsers when doing their digging through PCs, I couldn't stop thinking about it and thought it made an interesting angle to the browser story.

... but not really...

It isn't any surprise that "forensic computer
experts" aren't up to speed. Law enforcement
rarely means cutting edge technologists. It is
obvious to anyone that's been using computers
for any length of time that different
applications do things differently -- especially
where they keep stuff.

This shouldn't be a surprise to the cops. Heck
-- what if someone alters the application to
store the information elsewhere (or not log it
at all)? Does it not seem silly that a law
enforcement officer wouldn't expect that a
reasonably intelligent criminal (there must be a
few) would change the rules?

If that's the best they can do, what happens
when the criminal uses a live-cd and, possibly,
uses an encrypted USB key for their nefarious
ditties? No trace on the PC, and good luck
finding something on the key -- if you can find
the key at all (not only small, but often built
into other things like lighters, belt buckles,
and rubber duckies)...

[nuopus]

not a browser story

thing is ... this story has nothing to do with or shows any new angle to the browser wars.

This story is about computer illiterate investegators who do not seem to know that ALL programs are created differently and lack the skills to compensate or REALLY investegate.

It shows that I can get away with things simply by using a file format they don't understand and create my own encryption because they cannot snoop well beyond the capabilities of the pre-canned software they can run.

If anything this story emphasizes the need for law enforcement to "get a clue" when investegating computers. Personally if a loved one was hurt and evidence is on a bad guys PC, I would feel frustrated because some idiot cops really lack the ability to uncover evidence simply because their programs don't know about a new program the bad guy was using.

So, to anyone who has a clue about how computer programs work ... this story serves only to poke fun of non computer literate sucker police investegators.

[requiem--2008]

*sigh*

Another implication of this story is that these
"investigators" would be completely flummoxed if
someone changed where IE stores its information.

If someone can't easily figure out where a given
browser stores its data then they shouldn't be
allowed anywhere near an investigation. What we
have here is a classic case of confusion when
someone discovers that they might have to
actually think about what they're doing.

[Too Old For IT]

Hit the nail ...

"If someone can't easily figure out where a given browser stores its data then they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an investigation. What we have here is a classic case of confusion when someone discovers that they might have to actually think about what they're doing. "

This is one of my pet peeves with local police departments trying to fight "cyber-crime." Instead of out trying to solve real crimes (murders, rapes, kidnappings, frauds) local police put a bunch of time, money and energy into cyber-crime, which devolves into chasing after old geezers looking at kiddie-porn.

Ok, kiddie porn is bad, and should be eradicated from the face of the earth (no disrespect intended to the hundred or so legal jurisdictions where it is not illegal). That said, it so much easier for law enforcement to go mano-et-mano with a 70 year old guy looking at pictures of 18 year old anorexic girls in nothing but panties than it is with a 20-something YWM/YBM hopped up on crystal meth carrying a MAC-10 and holding a hostage. I get that.

But we hired them to solve just that kind of violent crime and to bring in just those types of criminals. Leave the cyber-crime to the experts and finding how millions of dollars moved out the LAN pipe, or how a market got manipulated or whatever.

[Scott W]

use firefox and they won't get your porn!

LOL
this could be a great advertisement to lure in paedophiles to the fox.
"got any child porn you don't want the authorities to find? use firefox!"

[requiem--2008]

*sigh*

Another implication of this story is that these
"investigators" would be completely flummoxed if
someone changed where IE stores its information.

If someone can't easily figure out where a given
browser stores its data then they shouldn't be
allowed anywhere near an investigation. What we
have here is a classic case of confusion when
someone discovers that they might have to
actually think about what they're doing.

[Too Old For IT]

Hit the nail ...

"If someone can't easily figure out where a given browser stores its data then they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an investigation. What we have here is a classic case of confusion when someone discovers that they might have to actually think about what they're doing. "

This is one of my pet peeves with local police departments trying to fight "cyber-crime." Instead of out trying to solve real crimes (murders, rapes, kidnappings, frauds) local police put a bunch of time, money and energy into cyber-crime, which devolves into chasing after old geezers looking at kiddie-porn.

Ok, kiddie porn is bad, and should be eradicated from the face of the earth (no disrespect intended to the hundred or so legal jurisdictions where it is not illegal). That said, it so much easier for law enforcement to go mano-et-mano with a 70 year old guy looking at pictures of 18 year old anorexic girls in nothing but panties than it is with a 20-something YWM/YBM hopped up on crystal meth carrying a MAC-10 and holding a hostage. I get that.

But we hired them to solve just that kind of violent crime and to bring in just those types of criminals. Leave the cyber-crime to the experts and finding how millions of dollars moved out the LAN pipe, or how a market got manipulated or whatever.

[Scott W]

use firefox and they won't get your porn!

LOL
this could be a great advertisement to lure in paedophiles to the fox.
"got any child porn you don't want the authorities to find? use firefox!"

[Sentinel]

Where exactly is the challenge?

"Firefox and Opera store information on typed URLs in a different file than IE does, and the files are somewhat tough to decipher, Lewis said. He showed his students--mostly law enforcement agents and private investigators--how to do it."

It's fascinating that authorities would have an easier time decoding a propietary software's inticacies than an open source one. I mean the code is freely available. If they don't know how to interpret it, they could hire someone who can. Really, where is the challenge? Now, Opera is also propietary software, and I can see why it would be difficult in their case, but FireFox is open source. No excuses there.

Files stored in different paths? Fine, look for the different paths, it shouldn't be that hard. Traditional tools don't work? Write new ones! Honestly, there should be no challenge in this respect for the authorities, who have access to more technology than the average user.

[Kelson]

White-hat script kiddies

From this article, it sounds like a lot of the people doing this kind of investgation aren't actually computer experts, but using pre-packaged software or following a list of directions someone has tailored for IE.

Effectively, they're professional script kiddies working for the common good instead of against it.

The lesson? Training. You wouldn't put a detective in the morgue and hand him a scalpel, and you wouldn't drop him in front of a science lab. You'd hire a coroner, you'd hire someone trained in forensic science. If you're going to search someone's computer for evidence, hire an expert or train someone to *become* an expert.

[Sentinel]

Where exactly is the challenge?

"Firefox and Opera store information on typed URLs in a different file than IE does, and the files are somewhat tough to decipher, Lewis said. He showed his students--mostly law enforcement agents and private investigators--how to do it."

It's fascinating that authorities would have an easier time decoding a propietary software's inticacies than an open source one. I mean the code is freely available. If they don't know how to interpret it, they could hire someone who can. Really, where is the challenge? Now, Opera is also propietary software, and I can see why it would be difficult in their case, but FireFox is open source. No excuses there.

Files stored in different paths? Fine, look for the different paths, it shouldn't be that hard. Traditional tools don't work? Write new ones! Honestly, there should be no challenge in this respect for the authorities, who have access to more technology than the average user.

[Kelson]

White-hat script kiddies

From this article, it sounds like a lot of the people doing this kind of investgation aren't actually computer experts, but using pre-packaged software or following a list of directions someone has tailored for IE.

Effectively, they're professional script kiddies working for the common good instead of against it.

The lesson? Training. You wouldn't put a detective in the morgue and hand him a scalpel, and you wouldn't drop him in front of a science lab. You'd hire a coroner, you'd hire someone trained in forensic science. If you're going to search someone's computer for evidence, hire an expert or train someone to *become* an expert.

hehe

I guess the alt. browsers use will jump at least another 2% after that article. LOL

hehe

I guess the alt. browsers use will jump at least another 2% after that article. LOL

[aabcdefghij987654321]

Cybercops are monkeys ?

Because it's not like they are supposed to be skilled IT professionals...

And when they have to dissect a computer with linux on it, they peel a banana to the ancient gods of knowledge to help them understand ***
'Welcome to gentoo. EvilD00d login:' means ?

[teknight]

'Cybercops'

In fact, most whom you refer to as 'Cybercops' are skilled IT professionals with formal backgrounds in Computer Science and Cyber Security. Is that surprising?

[unconfused1]

Criminals only use Windows

Apparently criminals only use Windows too.

*sigh*

[unconfused1]

Criminals only use Windows

Apparently criminals only use Windows too.

*sigh*

standardization

Yeah, I really agree with CNET on this one. Speaking of standardization, you know what sucks for mechanics? That there is more than one type of car in the world. Nissans, Mazdas, Toyotas, Hondas have different engines, body designs, and electronic systems than their ford counterparts. This makes it extremely difficult for mechanics to do their job, because not everything is in the exact same place as a taurus. Why do mechanics have to go through ALL of that trouble of looking through pictures in a manual or even, READING ONE, once in a while? Why cant there just be ONE type of car in the universe? It may get horrible gas mileage and break down alot, but damnit, its popular. It would make mechanics' lives so much easier, dont you think?

Jesus. Is this story some kind of way late april fools joke?