Comments on: Scorpion sportscar would burn gasoline and hydrogen

A Texas company aims to sell a $150,000 hydrogen-gasoline hybrid roadster by this fall.

[kkohnen]

1st law of Thermodynamics - conservation of energy. The engine will have to generate at least as much energy to create the hydrogen from water as it will get from burning the hydrogen back into water.

I can't imagine this helpin efficiency any.

[simmchip]

You are getting it all wrong, you aren't creating H2 you are releasing it, it is stored in the water you just seperate it out, I did it and only pulled 2 amps of DC power, why don't you try doing it before you knock the idea.

[krankey]

You're implying that you are creating the energy. Hydrogen is bound to Oxygen forming water. The process is simple; you can derive fuel from hydrogen and oxygen, generated by the electrolysis of the water. This process is not creating the energy. The process is simply a means of releasing the energy that is already there. The same process of releasing energy within atomic structure is why an Atomic Bomb works.

This has nothing to do with the laws of Thermodynamics, or perpetual motion etc.

[ImissATARI]

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Hydroxy/

people have been doing it for years, i finally applaud a company for adding it to a car. This isn't about thermodynamics, your car is already very in-efficient (think of all the wasted heat the engine puts off) Your alternator is constantly making more electric then your car needs, so using that EXTRA power........hmmmm..... well geez that just MAKES SENSE!

[oldmacdev]

The alternator does not make more energy than your car needs. Measure the current flow from the alternator, once the battery is charged, the alternator drag vanishes. BMW has introduced a system that decreases the drag on the alternator during acceleration and increases it during deceleration. It decreases fuel consumption 1-2%

[galeso]

Actually the alternator, unlike a generator, varies it's output to meet demand. The At first glance I thought the law did not apply, but the 1st law of Thermodynamics does apply in this case because the water is turned into hydrogen & oxygen, then back to water completing the cycle. I can not wait to see ImissATARI's perpetual motion machine. :-)

[oldmacdev]

Gas-Hydrogen hybrids are an interesting twist on the hybrid formula. Without storage and regenerative braking, how does it get better economy than a gas-electric hybrid? A high efficiency alternator converts 70% of the incoming energy into electricity. Low current electrolysis of water uses 4KWh to generate a cubic meter of hydrogen. Burning the hydrogen produces 3.55KWh of heat for 89% efficiency. An ICE burning hydrogen is at best 40% efficient. The whole cycle can store and recover less than 25% of the energy available in gasoline in the system.

Also the quote that burning hydrogen "consumes carbon" is wrong. If you read the article on the BMW hydrogen car, burning hydrogen reduced the carbon monoxide and non-methane organic compounds. It burns them, turning them into CO2 and water.

[galeso]

oldmacdev it consumes carbon, that is good and bad. The good is fewer unburnt hydrocarbons, the bad more CO2.

[ImissATARI]

P.S.: What you know about "laws" is about to go out the window within a year or two, stay tuned.

[Brad Hansen]

In addition to the apparent violation of the 1st law of thermodynamics, I find several other suspicious issues:
* The article mentions turbochargers, the sole purpose of which is to get more oxygen into the combustion chamber. But the Hydrorunner system simply vents its generated oxygen (2 H20 -> 2 H2 + 1 O2). It's only supplying hydrogen to the engine. Why?
* It seems to me that adding hydrogen would result in lowering the effective octane of the gasoline. This would increase the probability of engine knock and spark timing retardation by the engine computer. Note that this automatic ignition delay reduces gasoline mileage, the exact opposite of their claims.
* The Hydrorunner site is full of grammatical errors and typos. Can't they afford an editor, or at least a spellchecker? This issue just screams incompetence, and causes me to doubt their engineering competence as well.
* Nothing on their site actually explains the physical processes that result in their claims of increased mileage, other than their repeatedly stating "it's the hydrogen."

[kkohnen]

I strongly suspect that the laws of thermodynamics aren't going to go out the window within a year.

[ralfthedog]

RE: Laws of thermodynamics.

My guess is that the calories of the hydrogen are not the issue. The hydrogen is just causing the gas to burn more efficiently (Hydrogen does detonate faster.). This may well be a scam, but I can see this working without violating the laws of conservation or thermodynamics.

[k2dave]

My understanding of adding H2 to a gas (or diesel) engine is that the H2 carries the combustion much faster then the hydrocarbon fuels, so in the case of gas, the spark ignites the H2, where the ignited H2 quickly spreads everywhere in the cylinder, which evenly ignites the gas all at once, instead of the gas ignition spreading from the spark out to the far ends. I'm not sure how well it works, but that is the theory I've heard.

Also the alternator may be capable of producing more power then it usually does, but if that power is not being used it is not produced and the load on the alternator is reduced. The drag on the engine from the alternator increases as load increases, so using electric to produce H2 will require more power from the engine. This can been seem very easially if you have a lose alternator belt that may be fine at idle but if you turn on the rear defroster or other heavy load electric that the belt slips, the alternator is getting harder to turn.

[galeso]

The car is a hybrid, the hydrogen acts similar to the battery in a Prius.

[senojjones]

There are some fundamental problems with this:
1) Hydrogen releases much less energy per mole than gasoline does.
2) It occupies space that could be occupied by gasoline or oxygen.

All of the add on "run your car on water" devices are scams....

But what the heck, the answer here is simple...

Lets do a Double Blind test...

Give the car to Jay Leno, he's honest and knows his stuff...

measure gas milage on a dynometer as it comes from the factory and then again without the hydrogen with the engine retuned for maximum performance.

very simple...

meanwhile the smart money is on not buying one or investing until an independent study is done...

and yes, the laws of thermodynamics are not about to be broken, not in this universe.

[buffalojpb]

I thought they were saying that the fuel is more completly combusted with hydrogen injection than the combustion of normal fuel air mixture. That has nothing to do with any laws of thermodynamics, or energy of hydrogen, etc. I thought everyone knew the typical combustion leaves uncombusted fuel or an ineffecient burn rate, etc. Don't you people even know how spark plugs effect horse power or how different air mixtures and swirl patterns effect horse power ? Aint you heard of hemis ? Aint you ever messed with timing, shaved heads, etc ? The goal for maximum horsepower is total combustion at the peak of the stroke and a combustion chamber designed to enhance this process. minimizing uncombusted fuel will of course reduce pollution.


I'm not saying I believe there claims on mileage increase, but I do know improved combustion can increase horse power without violatating any kind of physics.

So the proof in the pudding will be when they deliver actual products that can then be tested quite easily to see if their claims are accurate.

Right now, I'm betting against their claims but we should have proof soon enough.

I wouldn't invest a dollar till there is independent proof of their claims.

[carlhage]

The hydrorunner system reads like a perpetual motion engine. No need to mention thermodymanics-- some calculations show how the system works. A typical alternator is rated 60A or 756W, so assume 300W is used to create H2. Because such an alternator is 50-60% efficient, then the engine power required is 500W or .68HP. Electrolysis is 60% efficient, so 180W creates H2 at .00453 kg/h or 1.91 ft3/h at atmospheric pressure. The internal combusion engine is about 20-30% efficient, so burning the H2 yields 54W or .073HP. In other words, .68HP was drained from the engine to add .073HP, or 11% efficiency. Running a 300W system for 1 hour creates H2 equivalent to .00536 gal gas. There is no magic, the hydrogen burns the same as a gas or hydrocarbons in gasoline, so we can calculate the equivalence between the H in water or gasoline. The H2 in the hydrorunner 1 liter water tank turns out to be equivalent to .13 gal gasoline. So even if it was 100% efficient, you'd only get .13 gal gas savings. The hydrorunner FAQ says the 1l water is added every 3000 miles, and assuming 30mph, we can work backwards and calculate that 75W of alternator power is needed. So how do you use 40% less gasoline from hydrogen equivalent to .13 gal gas burned over 3000 miles? How do you reduce greenhouse gas by 90% (claimed on hydrorunner.com)? Adding a small amount of H2 doesn't make the carbon in gasoline dissappear.

The Prius turns off a downsized engine when not needed and recycles braking energy, stored in 90% efficient batteries and reused in 90% efficient electric motors. Energy gets recycled at 70% efficiency instead of 10%.

There is work on thermoelectric converters that recycle waste heat in the exaust in order to replace the alternator and save several HP of "wasted" engine load required to create electricity. This doesn't violate laws of thermodynamics, since electric energy can be captured instead of warming the air behind the car.

[GryphonAuto]

More pictures here:
http://www.gryphonauto.com/vehicles/Ronn_Scorpion/index.htm

[ChemEngr]

The "hybrid" auto proposed is nothing more than an elaborate and inefficient means of producing hydrogen onboard. Electrolysis of water can only approach being a practical means of producing motor fuel (hydrogen) when the electrolytic cell is powered off of a nuclear grid, or hydroelectric grid, and utilizes a large economy of scale. An internal combustion engine driving an alternator-rectifier-electrolytic cell to produce hydrogen which is then fed as a portion of the fuel stream back into the engine is nothing more than an interesting, and inefficient lab experiment. Come on people, does it make sense to produce hydrogen on a small scale using $5 per gallon gasoline?

[ChemEngr]

I would also add that if in fact hydrogen injection significantly improves gasoline combustion efficiency, then the designer of the hybrid system would be better off providing a hydrogen storage unit onboard (e.g, a pressurized cylinder) that is filled from a commercial supply source, and injecting only that optimal mass amount into the combustion chamber needed for the combustion enhancement. And this assumes there is still a net advantage to the overall fuel costs compared to gasoline alone, or hydrogen alone, etc. Long term, all electric cars recharged off a nuclear power grid will be needed. And fuel for the nuclear power plants will need to come from breeder reactors. This scenario was well defined during the Carter administration. And ignored.

[superbrain04]

If they can create a hydrogen creation factory on the car, why can't they give out hydrogen creation modules for the home when you buy a hydrogen fuel cell car? It would eliminate the hydrogen refueling station problem we have now. If we had a hydrogen creation module say in our garage and we filled up when we needed to, wouldn't that solve some current problems? I don't know the science behind all of this, so forgive me if I am missing some critical key points why this would not be practical.

[tpaguy]

The reason "Hydrogen Creation" in your home doesn't make sense like it does in your car is because you don't have copious amounts of unused electricity like you do in a typical car with an alternator. You would have to BUY that electricity as a stand-alone transaction -not get it as a wasted byproduct. That simple reclaimation is probably a good part of the reported 'effeciencies' in the system. And the amount of Hydrogen here is not a lot. These are relative small amounts, used as they are created -not stored. You DON'T want a lot of Hydrogen in your vehicle -small incidents like the Hindenburg illustrate that point for me. Regardless of the science, I'm gonna BET that Ronn auto didn't choose this system soley off the mathematics -NOR due to marketing or spelling on the part of Hydrorunner. I BET they actually Tried it on the engine they chose and found that it works -at least well enough to offer advantages over foregoing the system. Today's hairbrained ideas are going to be the BASIS of our transportation technology of tomorrow. It's already happening -thank GOD!

[ChemEngr]

superbrain04 is correct that a small electrochemical cell could be designed for the home, however the problems are safety, storage of hydrogen, maintenance, technical training, and loss of scale economy. Hydrogen must be compressed and liquified for storage of significant mass quantities. The hybrid auto being discussed uses the hydrogen as it is produced, eliminating the mass storage requirement. For hydrogen to be practical, it must be produced at lowest cost, stored and dispensed as a liquid. Electrolysis of water is going to be an expensive process, unless the cost of electricity is very low.

[migswell]

I am no scientist, but from all these comments I am gathering that is it possible to do this. If you can pump even a little bit of Hydrogen from a cell powered by the alternator, the combustions in the engine should happen easier especially at the peak of the stroke where the gases are very compressed. right?? I don't think you need to produce hydrogen on a large scale, your cars alternator should provide enough to do the job with a simple hydrogen cell - a kick ass version of the ones we all made back in our science class days.... Anyway, one of you build it... Ill buy it.. I can't afford 150k on a frickin' scorpion. :)

[Peter Glaskowsky]

This is a scam. That's all there is to it. Whatever power is generated by burning the hydrogen, it'll take MORE power to produce the hydrogen in the first place. Modern gasoline engines are already fantastically efficient at burning the gasoline; where they lose efficiency is in friction and waste heat. So there's no way this design makes up for inefficient hydrogen generation with more-efficient gasoline combustion.

[petty026]

This car looks amazing, but the real challenge is by making it fast and green at the same time. This car is an interesting machine, especially we people demand for progress, then this is it! A car that is partly powered by gasoline and other part hydrogen that we can <a href="http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/lp/0809/save-gas.html">save gas</a>.