Comments on: Don't miss lessons Radiohead, Trent Reznor offer

Their attempts to promote and distribute albums online without the backing of a major record company proved the labels do have value.

[foofightre]

one sided argument...

Greg Sandoval hasn't really done his research. with the
introduction of social networking sites like myspace and
facebook, self promotion has never been easier. point in case: I
Am Ghost. after joining up together for three months, they were
one of the most popular bands on myspace (no record label
promotion) and soon after that were signed. another example of
record labels' irrelevancy is Clap Your Hands Say Yeah! they
recorded their album for around $3,000-$5,000 and sold
100,000 copies without being signed to a record label. Sandoval
seems a little biased in his reasoning, and even the whole way
reznor and williams went about selling their albums is flawed.
you don't offer a free crappy version of the album and then one
for a set price. most people will go for the free version.
Radiohead had an open price policy and for them it worked
beautifully.
from the standpoint of people pirating music, i'm much less
likely to take something for free if i can pay $2 for it. and how
does that $2 affect a band? its two more than they had before,
and two more than they would have had if the consumer had
stolen the album. simple economics here.
record labels are losing their foothold and although they
probably wont be gone completely, their power over the music
industry will shift dramatically...

[PFreak]

Could have done better

Maybe if they'd been on a major they would have sold 1mill. Do you
know how many "bands" are on myspace? There is no way to
discover music on these sites and name me 3 bands from myspace
that have made it big. Just 3.

[bipple]

nothing free when first starting

radiohead never offered free, which is why more people bought it, cause there was no pressure of choice. free means maybe later people would buy it, doubtful, pay your own means, more people would consider buying it. pay your own is perfect for unknown artists, who have to tour, and essentially, all artists Are going to have to do exactly what the labels did, only fair playing field is the internet. A savvy web master authoring new methods of promotion, but the labels that are owned by congloms that own media outlets aren't going to provide a manual for this kind of thing, just convoluted articles about the obvious.

[mattmoo]

Business Models

This story doesnt really provide any 'lessons' so its a bit of a bad job considering the headlines chosen.

Now, the business behind a new act:

So, 18% of 150,000 bought at $5 making $135,000.

Someone in a bedroom can make an album for less than $10,000 and it can still sound professional.

Build a brand, an image, website, some web2.0 reference points for potential downloaders...$5,000

Internet marketing / PR costs to reach a wide audience of rap lovers...maybe $20,000.

Distribution costs..maybe $1 per download? $2,700

Even if my numbers are low, lets say max budget is $50,000, you should still make at least $85,000.

Rinse, repeat for 100 artists a year, thats a $8.5 million business. That probably requires 4 fulltime staff to manage the process and about 4 outsourced operations. Go knock yourself out.

Now, for existing acts, the 'long tail' comes into play. How many people have since gone into itunes and bought from the Radiohead back catalogue? 1000s no doubt. Many more will probably go and see them in concert for the first time.

Free or $1 is the future with revenues off the backend e.g. tours, dvds, merchandise.

Similar thing is happening in the movie business, the films showing at cinemas are essentially one big 80 minute advert for a DVD sale. Wait till you see cinemas showing films for nothing in return for a percentage of the DVD sales, with advertising and vending machines covering the cinema's minimal operating costs.

The music and movie business is overloaded with players who are too fat, too greedy and buy their artists too many 'flowers and fruit'. The times, they are a changin...

[PFreak]

WHere do you get your numbers?

Building a brand/image/website is considerably more than
$5,000. A professional sounding record can not be made for
anything like $10,000. One day with a good engineer, producer
and facility will cost you that. Garageband does not make
professional quaility recordings. To buy the equipment needed
would cost about $10,000 but then of course you need to know
how to work the software and you still need a good engineer and
in the case of most bands, a producer to make sure the record is
actually finished.

And the last time I check it was more expensive than ever to see
a movie. Can't wait until it's free you dope. DVD sales are
another revenue stream for studios. You think they are going to
abandon charging for a movie when it can make over $100mill
in one weekend at the box office?

[csantovena]

Trent Reznor and his new

Are you ******* kidding me??? Trent Reznor's approach to Saul Williams Niggy Tardust is a success. There is a huge BUZZ about Saul Williams. This was done without paying a publicist or a public relations firm. Believe me, Trent knows what he is doing. We are talking about him and the now known Saul Williams right now aren't we. They are threatening the sinking record labels, and let's not pretend they are not dying o.k.

I was going to write this on the NIN board a month ago, but I didn't want to get tooo personal about my life so I scrapped it. I don't talk about my "education." But this article pissed me off that I decided to come out of hiding. I was going to tell Trent to go to University Park Campus near Figueroa near downtown and that's where he can find where all this ******** is being taught by music industry wannabe's and frat boys studying business who would beat up on homeless men because they are trying so hard to prove that they are the next Spielberg or CEO to their buddies. The things they do just to prove they are somebody. Kind of homoeroctic actually, by guys trying to impress other guys. That's where this Fergie model (circa 1997) was taught. Though nothing against Stacy Ferguson, but where we were taught to utilize someone who looks like her as a commodity. She had that "right" kind of look for the business. Kind of Naziesque if you ask me. I'm just keeping it blonde you know (just like these ******** say at 1 minute 12 seconds AT http://youtube.com/watch?v=8KtR2oeXFqo . The same place where they would cram all the students studying accounting into Bovard Auditorium where they had a movie screen of a fat suited-up business man with dollar bills coming out of his hands and pockets with the HUGE caption "CASH IS KING!" for half an hour. True story! Horrifying. That's what the very "credited" University of Southern California is all aboout. I should know!!!!!!! This is the same place where public relations students are taught how to ******** and make the mundane look like it's the most spectacular thing the masses ever seen. The same place where they try to ******** that's how the world is and it isn't. The truth is not found in this place and this is where people learn to diseminate crap to the world.

[NINForever]

That's right!!!

Absolutely! From a public relations stand point Niggy Tardust is a huge success. The money part comes later on tour any way and should be a success since there is now a "BUZZ." The author doesn't seem to know what he is talking about and appear to only be taking punches at Trent because of his honesty and rock journalist's resentment of never fullfilling their dreams of being a huge respected rock star like Trent. That's how a lot of these music journalists are anyways: They wish they were the admired musician and getting in the music industry is the closest way they know how to get there. If these writers are so intelligent when it comes to selling records how come these guys are not making and selling music themselves? And that quote from the USC music professor really blew it for me and this article's credibility. Bunch of elitist snobs over there who can only teach the business and THINK they know it all. Wannabe status seekers, who never amount to the real thing. They wish they were Trent.

[Frank1956]

NIN & RADIOHEAD

Yes musicians are far and few that can run a music business well while being just that... musicians. Prince is the glaring exception. I think that neither NIN or Radiohead should have offered the choice of downloading for free. This is the main issue of the digital music world and why so many did not pay. I think at least they should have asked for 99 cents per CD. For example running a website is not free and could have justified in charging something. It was an experiment but yet Reznor was disappointed since he wanted to recoup his investment but for Radiohead it was really an experiment. Most of their fans would have surely paid and hence it would have been even a lesser loss since the files ended up online for free in various peer to peer sites anyway and would have happeneded no matter what.

[Frank1956]

PS

In the case of Radiohed I don't mean that they truly lost. But I think you get my point.

[The_Decider]

True artists

Want their work seen or heard.

In radioheads case, they likely made more money on their experiment then they would have going through a major label.

Bands get a tiny fraction of the money from a CD sale. Estimate vary, but none is over 50 cents.

Running a web site is not free, but it is cheap.

[fredmenace]

How would Williams be better off with a label?

At best, he would have ended up in about the same position. At worst, he'd have sold less, be disparaged for a flop, owe the label far more than they supposedly lost on this project, and be tied into a money-losing contract for his next 5 albums (all of which would be overpriced flops as well, sinking him further into debt).

So how is this experiment a failure, suggesting that going with the record labels would still be a better idea?

Also, with Radiohead, they made more money from the "name your own price" album download in a few weeks than they have made on all electronic downloads of all their other songs put together, ever.

So how is that a failure, either?

The "lesson" I'm getting is that doing it yourself and making available for a low price on the internet (with liberal free samples or even name-your-own price) is DEFINITELY the way to go.

[W Grant]

Couldn't agree with you more!

I am 99% sure that I would have never heard the name Saul
Williams or heard his music if it was not for Trent Reznor and
this experiment. This is a great article for Trent and maybe his
talking about the experience not meeting his expectations is
marketing in and of itself. All publicity is good publicity. The
band Primus putting on their T-shirts "Primus Sucks".

This is round one in what appears to be a very long fight against
the current business model. I am a huge fan of Trent Reznor and
not because of his music which I appreciate a lot. He was the
first Recording Artist to put some of his upcoming songs out in
the GarageBand format and later even other formats. This
allowed anyone with the software to see each individual tracks
and how they were mixed and even change them to make
remixes of his songs.

Now he put himself on the line again with his own time, money,
talent and effort for an unknown artist he believed in. I hope
Trent looks at this with a wide lens and know that we are behind
him even if this particular artist is not the music we typically
listen to. Give it time Trent give it time and back his next one if
you want to reap the momentum you gave this one.

[PFreak]

Maybe he would have sold more

How do you know he wouldn't have sold 10x the # of CD's had he
been on a major? Maybe he just isn't that talented and no one
wants his record, ever cross your mind?

[keyringwest]

Free Market

Free market always works with big enough macro level. At micro
level never works. Radiohead is not correct test.

[RedZoneRecords]

90% Wrong - (Still Searching for the other 10%...)

'...But they also illustrated that the music business is probably better left in the hands of businessmen."

-That's absolutely incorrect. One of the largest costs of running these labels is staff, and the executives' over-blown bonuses, etc. Are these the "businessmen" you're referring to? That's why EMI started the new year with all these layoffs. To say that any artist NEEDS these businessmen is to say that you can't release a successful record without lining someone's pocket for doing things you can and should do yourself.

"...Musicians are not the new labels."

-If they aren't, they SHOULD be. Artists can and SHOULD have direct sales relationships with their fans (customers). They just have to lower their expectations. You can't go indie and expect the same numbers as a major. But as an indie, you also don't have all the overhead of a major. I know plenty of indie labels and artists that are making good money. You just have to be prepared to jump in, roll up your sleeves and do the work yourself. Or, if you need additional expertise, that's what outsourcing is for.

"...Artists need someone to provide financial support and business acumen."

Financial support, yes. Everything takes money. But there are investors out there, especially for artists/businesses with a track record of sales. Business acumen? Again, outsourcing.

I could go on, but I think the point is simply that these major artists have gotten too used to having major labels do ALL the work for them, and even then, they complain about not making enough money. I think they should suck it up, do the stuff they can do themselves, and outsource the rest. Your profits will probably end up higher in the long run, and you'll have complete control, as well.

My hats off to Trent, NiN, and any other major artists who've decided to do it themselves. Major labels ARE dead, and it's for good reason.

[JadedGamer]

Employee vs. contractor

An artist at a major lable is like an employee; there is safety in having a paycheck, but that is often independent of your contribution. Successful artists (more productive employees) contribute a surplus that helps to pay for the unsuccessful ones (unproductive employees).

An artist going without such backing is like an independent contractor or a self-employed person. And they, like the independent artists, need to do a lot of work (accounting etc.) that represent services an employer deals with in the employee situation.

But much like a self-employed person, those services can be outsourced. There are promo agencies etc. out there, the difference is that in the independent case you the artist decides which to use. A label-"owned" artist who feels the label isn't doing enough to promote their work cannot just switch promoting agency like that.

(Oh, and the old adage that the world does not owe you a living or successs in business holds jut as much for artists as for other businesses.)

[inachu]

I never heard of Radiohead.

I am afriad of what they might sound like.

[eyespark]

Trent, Record Label Newbie?!?!

So wait a second... is this suggesting Trent Reznor has now reinvented himself as a *newbie* in the world of record labels?


i.e.
"Reznor essentially thrust himself into the role of a music label. That is, a music label with a lot to learn. The first lesson was that you don't always back a winner."

And then...

"Welcome to the music business, Trent."


Seriously. Huh? Is there amnesia to Trent's 12 years as co-founder of Nothing Records ...a label of a couple hits and mostly misses? All of those attempts give quite a bit of context to the sorts of things Trent picks to promote. Looking back over it, Saul Williams nestles happily in the column of noble misses with Prick, 12 Rounds, Pig, 2wo, etc etc etc. I'd guess internet distribution, free or otherwise, probably has very little to do with it.

Read up... Nothing Records...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_Records

[tdj114]

To the Editor: Whatever Happened to Journalistic Integrity?

To be honest, I registered this this account for the sole purpose
of responding to this article in order to shed some light on
what's really going on here. For whatever reason, Mr. Reznor
decided to post a rebuttal regarding what was said, the ISP tax
comment, in particular.

According to Mr. Reznor, this story was written before he was
even involved and ended up suggesting that he was a supporter
for the ISP tax. Any true fan of NIN and Trent Reznor, such as
myself, understand that this is far from the case and are
appalled that any journalist would try to put words in a subjects
mouth and think they could get away with it. To find out how
Mr. Reznor truly feels, visit:

www.nin.com

I have to say that I'm not intimately aware of all the details
surrounding the interview or how the situation got to this point.
What I do know, however, is that I have avoided CNET because of
issues such as this one that I have come across in the past. This
case just adds to the stack of untrustworthy behavior on the part
of CNET editors and their disregard for journalistic merit.