Comments on: Will Zune do Windows Mobile? Looks likely

It might not be the legendary "Zune phone," but you can bet on the convergence in the near future.

[Groucho6]

So basically you're a Microsoft shill is that it? Maybe I'm a pessimist. There had to be someone out there who would still get excited about Redmond development. I guess it's you.

[ducttape36]

can we pleeeeeeeeaaaassseee have a discussion that doesnt involve brand bashing or name calling? would that jsut be awesome? its sad when the very first commenter on a topic attacks the author for getting excited about new technology, just because its from a company they dont like.

[whiplash55]

You're not a pessimist, just a jerk.

[random truth]

@ducttape36
Of course not this is the internet.
In completely unrelated news.
I HATE YOU, RED ROBIN

[Akiba]

Groucho6 - You don't have to like the product or the company, but post when you have something meaningful to say about the topic. All you did was portray your foul attitude. There are better places for that.

[Penguinisto]

Damn... the smartphone market is already in trouble, Windows Mobile is losing out to RIM and Apple... hard (Symbian is still top dog globally, though even its position is threatened).

This project's one and only hope is that Symbian collapses hard and fast enough to leave a lot of open marketshare up for grabs, where MSFT can snag a piece of it.

Otherwise, I suspect it'll be too little, too late to save Windows Mobile from sharing the same fate as Windows Live, MSN, etc...

[Vegaman_Dan]

Or... it could be that MSFT is simply going to offer the Zune player to smartphone makers to integrate into their own products. That doesn't make it a 'ZunePhone' or anything like it- just a really good MP3 interface to a phone which none of the current phones (including the iPhone) do a very good job with.

I think your hatred for all things Microsoft is clouding your judgement.

[Penguinisto]

Dan - it's not hatred, it's common sense. The "Zune Phone" (or whatever they call it) will have several obstacles coming out of the gate:

1) it'll immediately look and feel like (and thus fail just like) a "Me Too!" product (see also Blackberry Storm, or one of several iPhone-lookalikes).

2) The Zune has some massive DRM built-in to it. Not saying the iPhone or the Blackberry doesn't, but Apple and RIM can control how their hardware behaves... Microsoft (unless they start making their own hardware) cannot.

3) Microsoft is losing marketshare due to a lot of technical and aesthetic issues that I don't think will be solved anytime soon... or at least not soon enough to matter by the time the dust settles. By then, the iPhone will be two generations beyond, RIM will have likely done the same, and unless Windows Mobile makes some sort of quantum leap (which will likely break compatibility)? Catching up is much harder (and more expensive) than leading, you know?

4) This will require a ton of cooperation from hardware vendors... cooperation that may not be forthcoming, or may happen, but on terms unfavorable to Microsoft.

5) The economy isn't exactly sunny right now. Smartphone sales are becoming somewhat tight - so new and unproven will have a much harder time getting anywhere than proven and industry-leading in the mobile market.

6) RIM is entrenched in the (at least US) business sub-market (with Symbian owning it outside the US). Apple is fast becoming entrenched in the consumer sub-market. Where will that leave Microsoft, which will likely try to do and be both?

--

All that said, I don't see Microsoft making a Zune software product for smartphones without Windows Mobile. Look at the article - it specifically tracks what the Windows Mobile folks are doing, not the Zune folks. Also, The Zune isn't about mp3 (it plays it, but...) The Zune is about .wma and .wmv files - proprietary codecs that will require heavy licensing fees at best (not attractive to an integrator at all, just for a minority codec).

[ncalishome]

I tend to get hand me down smart phones from my company as I work from home and don't need it a ton... and I really don't care what I'm using as long as it gets the job done, which is corporate stuff. That said my last phone was a Motorola Q (Windows Mobile), current one is a Blackberry Pearl. My bet is that Microsoft hopes to take more Blackberry marketshare (they're both ~15% currently) since they're more a comparison in features and, I think, what people buy them for. I also think Microsoft will win this particular battle. WM was far more intuitive, at least to me. Blackberry OS feels unintuitive and dated, and locks up quite often.

I think bringing Zune to WM would be a great move, both for the Zune marketplace and WM. It adds a very consumer oriented feature to the device, and having used the Zune software, I can tell you it's completely different from any Microsoft app you've used. I think the UX design is intended to make the transition to other mediums an easy one. Sitting at my computer programming long days and nights I succumbed to the subscription music a couple years ago, and if that aspect of Zune catches on, a mobile version of it would be good for Microsoft.

@Penguisto I think you (with your smug little /P and all) and a lot of others here think Microsoft is blind, deaf, and dumb. They surely are fighting an uphill battle, but I think we'll see a Microsoft rise out of these times and under it's newer players in management that will change the discourse a bit, at least hopefully. Be a lot more fun with more than one competent gladiator (Apple) fighting out there.

[Penguinisto]

@ncalishome: I sincerely doubt that Microsoft is deaf, dumb, and/or blind. I do however believe that they have an institutional inability to discern much beyond reading others' successes, and aping them.

Note that I'm not saying this to be snarky. Let's walk you through some recent history here...

The xbox: their idea was to build a console and dump a metric ton of money into it, in the hopes that eventually it'll one day be the top slot and make a lot of money. They barely turned first profit on it this year (8+ years later), and it'll be a very long time before they can hope to recoup the several billion dollars (likely more) they've poured into it.

The Zune: they lashed together a 'mee-too!' iPod-style player, totally screwed their Plays-For-Sure business partners (Sony, Toshiba, et al) in the process, and fully expected the Zune to dominate. Instead, it failed. Their reaction? Dump even more money into it.

Remember HD-DVD? Microsoft's invention to try and challenge Blu-Ray. Failed.

UltimateTV? It was discovered that Microsoft was violating a ton of TiVO patents. Again, failure.

MSN? Qwest is the only reason it still lives.

Windows Mobile? Slipping in overall marketshare, and completely dominated - first by RIM, then Apple.

OOXML? Nope - MSFT wound up having to include ODF in its next Office service pack anyway due to lack of interest in ".docx".

This pattern (and many, many more examples like it) stand as testimony that Microsoft really does have a hard time getting it right, and has had a hard time ever since the late 1990's. Even now, 24 years after they were first sold, Windows and Office are still their only main profit centers. They have yet to come up with anything to match them as far as profitability.

Given all of this, why would I expect the Zune Phone idea, coupled with all of the obstacles it faces, to be anything other than a not-good-enough product?

I would love to be proven wrong. Problem is, I don't think that Microsoft is up to the challenge of doing that.

/P

[ncalishome]

@Penguisto thanks for the educated response, and your point on their failures is well taken. On a few of them:

XBOX - I'm sure Microsoft would have liked to have recouped the cost by now but were likely anticipating where they are right now with it. Sure there is a lot of negative RROD news and other calls to arms but all I hear from people that own them is that it's a great console, and there's a lot of great games.. I don't own nor have I even played a 360

Zune - You really think that Microsoft thought they'd come to market with the Zune and immediately be doing good? It's doing poorly but again I think MS knew they'd be sinking cash into this, perhaps not this much but who knows. The Zune is a nice device, the software is a breath of fresh air and from interviews I've watched here and other places of the Zune people is that they know they're at the beginning. The "Plays For Sure" label was for sure a horrible ironic slap in the face of consumers.

UltimateTV - Not too familiar with this one but I think that's been replaced by media center functionality, with its tie-ins to XBOX or other set top devices?.. if anyone knows the current state of MS DVR type functionality, it's not me

HD-DVD - "Microsoft invention"? you know better than that. They did stand behind it but so did other companies, it lost

MSN - yep, dead

Sure they have acquired what makes up a lot of the future-tech they're working on but I do see light coming from Redmond, however dim it is at times. I'm an avid news junkie and what they need is someone(s) in charge with vision and the ability to lead the company there. They certainly have the resources and the people with brains to do good things so it's a matter if Ozzie and co are up for it.

[Mam00th]

@Penguinisto

Be careful with that Xbox argument. Yes the Xbox has been a losing business for a while. It lost a lot of money, yes, but you do have to consider Microsoft managed to build a very very strong brand in the gaming world, with a very solid (and sometime savage...) fanbase. That is something that is commendable from a market perspective. Will it ever become a winning venture for Microsoft? That we'll see...

As for that HD-DVD argument, I sure hope you knew that Microsoft was only providing the HD-DVD interactive layer to the DVD forum. Did they had a reason for supporting because of this? you guess...

As for Windows and Office being their only main profit center, you should look at that argument. Although you were right when you pointed that they have yet to release a product that match their profitability (any company have yet to), you should look further then what you see as a normal consumer before making such statement. One of the less thought division of Microsoft that surprisingly bring a nice profit is their hardware division. (I was surprised when I learned that too, but the margin on peripheral is quite high). Their server division though is one of their main profit channel. If it was a separate company, it would still be the fifth biggest software company on the planet. Windows Server, MSSQL and especially Exchange, are all very profitable pieces of software but I understand that the typical consumer isn't really in contact with those products (not that they should either).

But you did made me laugh as you couldn't have it more right with MSN.

You do have to admit that if done right, a Zune Mobile service, or the ability to download any music you'd like from your cellphone (that's what I think it will be) would be an awesome feature.

[Penguinisto]

Ah - let me get both of you at once, if I may.

Xbox: Brand recognition does not equal cash in hand. If it did, Pets.com would still be around. :) That said, they may turn a profit, but barring some unforseen miracle, they'll never be able to recoup the money they dumped into it. To top that off, the next gen is no guarantee that they'd be able to hold on to what marketshare they do have (Both Nintendo and Sony know and have experienced this, while the likes of Sega and Atari found this out the hard way).

The HD-DVD fiasco does have a backstory to it. Basically, MSFT convinced Toshiba that together they could reject Blu-Ray (during the DVD Forum's standards finalizing stages) and go it alone with HD-DVD. Toshiba basically got left holding a big and ugly bag on that one (Sony learned the hard way how to fight that kind of war after losing the Betamax v. VHS battles a long time back...)

I did forget the Server division, but in all fairness it in turn is reliant on Windows for its existence... if Windows slips, so does MSSQL, Exchange, etc etc.

Hardware is a commodity nowadays - most of what Microsoft sells under its name there is re-branded Logitech (and other) peripherals... relying on your competitors for survival is no way to run a division, no?

[D3vildog699]

How is MSN dead? I use it all the time.. so does everyone i know... and if they happen to have Yahoo or something like that, i can still add them. so im not seeing your point here.

Course your not one to commonly use facts or anything.

[umbrae]

Windows Mobile would need a lot of work. Hopefully, MS is really looking into improving it now that the iPhone and G2 are out. Doesn't do me much good now, but when I need a new phone they better have improved Windows Mobile or it wont be another WM phone.

[random truth]

Its not going to happen soon though and Microsoft knows it.
Before you call me an itard or ApPlez Fanboi finish reading.
Its the same reason that they cant port their photo synth software over to winmo. The third party hardware manufactures. Androids going to be in a similar slum to soon. Most the third party makers are going with the bare minimum in terms of hardware. An example of some important changes that third party makers are going to have to do.
- Put dedicated graphics chips in it.
-Put dedicated codec chips in it.
-Faster Processors
-Headphone Jacks
These are just a few of the items that need to change. Try playing an h.264 encoded video on a windows mobile phone.

[emmanuelhuna]

Groucho6: stop your anti-Windows hate - you're either a Mac fan boy or a Linux fanatic - your hate is getting old.

[Dalkorian]

M$ deserves all the hate they get - and more. Enjoy your slavery.

[myles taylor]

Competition breeds innovation. Apple and Microsoft seem to be the only companies in tech right now who aren't in trouble, so I think they should definitely go head to head. I don't expect a lot from Microsoft, but I'm always hopeful. :)

[whiplash55]

The global phone market is so huge, and the turn over so fast that there's always room for a new platform. Microsoft has to come to the market with a decent device, made by them, not partner with OEMs who have no incentive to upgrade software to improve usability. The Zune started out pretty mediocre, but has improved to the point that it's at least as good as the current iPod Nano and Classic. The Zune store is better in many ways, 320KB MP3's sound better than anything in the iTunes store and can be played on any device out there. I almost never use my iPod anymore, my 8GB Zune sounds better and has a great interface.

[patrick_i]

In iTunes you can import music at 320kbps in AAC or MP3 format. It is in the import settings (use the Custom settings). If you use Apple's Lossless you'll get even higher bitrates but the max bitrate varies between songs. Since you use a Zune it doesn't really matter to you. I use an iPod/iPhone and I import in AAC at 256kbps but I'll give 320kbps a try.

[colour_of_ash]

@ patrick_i: I could be mistaken, but...

...I believe what whiplash55 was commenting on was referring to the quality of iTunes Store NOT what you rip using the software. Either way, apparently most people can't hear the difference between good and bad quality in regards to sound. Keep in mind how many I see still using their iPod stock earbuds all the while claiming that their device is better than anything EVEN Sony.

I, personally, can't listen to what little I've purchased through the iTunes Store. If crappy WMA sounds "tinny" to my ears, M4P still sounds "gritty" even when you burn it to CD and rip it back to 320 kps MP3. It won't matter what headphones you use either if even that a higher end pair will make this more noticable.

I also have an eMusic subscription that I pay $25 for 100 downloads. Do the math on which is a better deal. Certainly, iTunes now as had it's PRO to choose from yet it's also MORE expensive! Why would I want to pay more for music when I can just buy an tangible copy and rip the disc myself with the software of MY choosing. From what my own pair tell me, the quality of eMusic far exceeds even iTunes' more costly offering and even with a cheap $10 pair of Sonys much less anything higher grade, and if I can't find something there yet, I go look at Amazon MP3.

By the way, I used my girlfriend's iPod before ordering my Zune, and I have to tell you, even with the lack of an EQ my Zune sounds much truer. It almost was a deal breaker because that's what I liked about her iPod, but I'm better for my instincts. MSFT's only blunder was not making the software Mac-compatible. Though I wonder if it's more to Apple's liking than MSFT's. I notice that their isn't much MSFT software written for the Mac except Office. I'm sure you MIGHT be able, or should, to run the Zune software in a Windows environment on a Mac. Who knows as I've yet to read about somebody trying that. Most macheads I know wouldn't dare try anything made by MSFT unless they had no choice.

I don't know. It's a toss up to me. Apples to oranges. To each their own. I prefer the zest of orange juice. I'm not anti-Apple. Just anti-sheep. I do believe, however, that it'd be a different world if Apple licensed their OS to run on something other than Mac hardware. But they're a little backwards.

It's just my impression. Let what's between your pair tell you -- not their marketing sell you.

[brian.lee]

Again this is the Microsoft mentality... just cram an existing OS that's geared towards one piece of hardware into another and as long as it boots it'll instantly sell... NOT every device is suited to have a START button. It's almost as bad as the "LOOK we got Linux to boot on an iPod, an iPhone"

Why does RIM, Apple and Nokia and to a lesser degree PALM do well because they have dedicated people who live, breath, eat and sleep on each project/device they focus.

[Penguinisto]

" It's almost as bad as the "LOOK we got Linux to boot on an iPod, an iPhone" "

You do know that there's a difference between hobbyists playing around with a project for fun, and corporations betting billions on one, right?

/P

[Magicland]

I've had a T-Mobile Dash for almost 2 years now, and really haven't had problems with the Win-Mo interface. You can customize the display to include or display just about anything you want just by editing XML files (though the bar with the most recently used apps suits me fine). Some of the built-in apps could be better, such as the Media player and the browser, and some sort of backup to flash should be mandatory. The voice command (and dialing) could be improved as well, but features like that and wireless stereo headphone support still haven't shown up on the iphone (why touch the screen when you can tell it who to call? I don't even have to take it out of my pocket). I've never understood the appeal of things like "visual voicemail". Do most people keep that many voicemails on their phones that they've got to paw through them like a list of contacts?

[ncalishome]

Agreed on WM as of now, pretty much point for point. Try Skyfire for Windows Mobile. It's free, and anything is better than mobile IE

[gno1]

Maybe they will call it "phune".

[random truth]

Its the zPhune, the Phunest phone ever!

[calculatorwatch]

What they need is a windows mobile interface designed by the team that made the zune interface, I love the zune interface and i've never used windows mobile but from what i can tell it's exactly the opposite in terms of aesthetics and ease of use

[MyBrotherSteve_dot_com]

Perhaps they could call it The WHIM (Windows High Impact Media) phone. You heard it here first.

[jle058]

are those little white wireless in-ear buds? i just want those then, zunes are nice but i just want those buds

[Gunady]

I am one of Windows Mobile User, and I am certainly not happy with the outdated interface of Windows Mobile 6. It's very disappointing that Microsoft still wants to delay the release of Windows Mobile 7.. They try hard to gain users for their web platform with Windows Live/Azure/etc, but they are losing mobile users significantly.. Microsoft, WAKE UP..

[snicka12]

whats a zune?

[affordablewebpro]

so ur the original zune fan aren't you?

[sharmajunior]

I really like the picture...with the old school dial and all..

[joshsc]

According to my MS sources, there is a Zune phone in the works- I'm told it could combine Music, gaming (portable xbox?) and phone. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[doobz94]

Whoa! A phone, portable game console, and great MP3 player? I would so buy that...and I already did. It's call an iPhone. :P

I prefer Apple over Microsoft, but I don't think they deserve all of the **** that they get. The Zune has great features. The only thing really holding it back is the hideous design. But I do not think that Microsoft can take down the iPhone's iPod. I don't care if you think that the Zune's interface is better than the iPod Nano's or Classics but the iPhone's interface and navigation is perfect. There is no way the Zune can beat that with a new or their current interface. The iPhone, currently, is the only MP3 player on a phone that is great, useful, and actually used. There is no arguing that. A Zune phone will be comparable to the iPhone's iPod, but it will not beat it. No doubt there.

[photog_7]

Anyone who would describe the Zune Marketplace as "excellent" either hasn't spent much time using it or hasn't spent much time using iTunes or has a bias that overrides reality. I have both a Zune and an iPhone 3G. The Zune sounds OK and works just fine once you get the music on it, but the Zune software for the PC is absolutely awful compared with iTunes. There is no comparison between the Zune Marketplace and the iTunes store because the Zune's PC software is so inferior. The iPhone is a great iPod / PDA with a not-so-great phone. The Zune is a fairly decent MP3 player with lousy PC software. Adding a phone to the Zune won't make it what it isn't.

[D3vildog699]

Or they have an opinion that varies from yours. Turns out your not the person who decides what other people can or cannot like.

[joevai52]

I recently purchased an HTC Touch Pro with WM 6.1. I love it, and I find the interface easy to use and very intuitive (even when I leave touch flo for the start menu). I'm not a Microsoft fanboy by any means. I read a lot of comments about how the interface is outdated, but I've used the iphone and ipod touch. I've also used a Blackberry. I don't see how either of those operating systems are any more intuitive to use than WM. Maybe it's because I've been using Windows PC's for many years, but I find WM easier to use than either Blackberry's OS or Apple's.

I guess I don't understand why there are so many people saying that WM is outdated and non-intuitive. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I would just like someone who actually uses WM to explain to me what all the problems are, and please don't just make some general comment like, "It's outdated." That explains nothing. All of you who can't stand WM, help me see the light.

Anyone?

[Seriously_]

Most people seem to miss something, I am sure EVERYONE here will read this (Yeah Right). From what I have read, Microsoft has never introduced something as a competitor to something else, (Columnists say those things) they have always introduced something as an alternative to what's out there in response to public requests (Not everyone want to buy Apple products, deal with it). Even the recent, very brief, advertisements for the Zune dont claim "Were better than Apple" nor do they resort to "I'm an iPod and I'm a Zune" to promote the product.
Already, I see people here starting to call whatever the project coming out a "Zune Phone" No-one has called it that except the columnist pondering what it may be called. Give it break people, Apple is doing okay and Microsoft is not going to "Take them down" in some kind of corporate take-over. Even if they did, guess what? The world would continue turning and the "rapture" would still not happen because of it.
Competition is good for business, perhaps you should thank Microsoft for keeping Apple in "Check" if nothing else for things like "Twice price and half the speed" of the original iPhone. Personally, I don't want to see that happen again, do you?

[Penguinisto]

"Microsoft has never introduced something as a competitor to something else"

Explain Internet Explorer. Explain Windows for that matter. We'll check in after you manage to do that. ;)

[sportsbud1]

To say that Microsoft has never introduced anything as a competitor to anything else i ludicrous windows was a response to Macintosh, Microsoft has always lagged behind in innovation especially behind mac but they usually come out with their own product that's cheaper faster better and then dominate the area, they manage to bloom late and dominate like windows came in late and look at it now domination over mac