Comments on: Can Microsoft make Silverlight shine?

The would-be Flash killer works on Windows and Mac OS and is headed to Linux, but Web developers want to see it on lots and lots of machines before they'll commit.

[davidrpaige]

I hate when the do this....

"What I want to avoid is arbitrarily pushing things on people's
machines," he said. "Apple just jammed Safari 3.1 down as part
of iTunes." - Goldfarb.

He has a lot of nerve. The Safari download, as part of the
Window's (as well as Apple's) Software Update is completely
optional. It is not "jammed" on the PC. If you want it you click
Download. If you don't, you uncheck the box and move on with
your life. Unlike MS's approach of bundling it with all their other
bloated, crap. That is jamming.

[James7777777]

iTunes/Safari/Quicktime

Just try to download iTunes, Safari, or Quicktime without then trying to force one of the others. Yes on some installations you can just unclick the extra bloat, but Microsoft installations have the same options, in fact with office you have a huge amount of control over what is installed.

But hey, office is from Microsoft so it must be evil and Safari is from Apple so it must be awesome.

[Turgeson]

What's the big deal?

You're talking a <1MB file that can deliver some really cool stuff (check out Hard Rock's Memorabilia page). How annoying is it that Apple's updater fails half the time and pushes 70MB+ downloads out? The whole MS is evil thing is really getting old (and I use Linux and Windows). If anything they are more open than Apple and Adobe.

[Seaspray0]

No comparison

Safari is not an update to quicktime and has nothing to do with quicktime operation. It is not an update period. It will automatically install on every quicktime update and you must manually uncheck it evertime. That's malware and there is nothing you can say that will defend that.

"Goldfarb. He has a lot of nerve." Unlike steve jobs who didn't care that I didn't want safari.

[fireball169]

Mac OS and Linux Support is a ploy- look at frontpage extensions.

Having Mac OS and Linux support is just a marketing ploy. Once they get the market penetration they will drop support for other OS's. Just look what they did with FrontPage Extensions. First they supported Linux/Unix, then later dropped support after Front Page became dominant.

[J. Blow]

They aren't "extentions"

And can't be dropped, or at least it would be exceedingly difficult.

[JScottK]

Agreed

Just look at the "supported" platforms. XP and Vista (obviously), but
Mac OS support is ONLY for Intel Macs and Linux support is an
unsupported open source project, not a M$ product. You only have
to look at IE (dead) and WM (stuck back at version 9) on the Mac to
see M$ real intentions.

[umbrae]

Front Page dominant?

Or did you mean dormant? Front Page was the dream of every Chinese hacker that wanted to deface a US website. FrontPage is bad very bad, and I have never met a professional web developer that used it nor an Enterprise that enabled it. It had such a bad rap, they had to change it to Sharepoint Designer.

[lmasanti]

What a pitty...

What a pitty... that you never give us an ansewer to the "second
question": what has it as a value? The correct answer --as far as
you only speak of delivering it-- is that it is a needed part of
Microsoft dominance!
Neither virtue nor technical advantage!
Crap!

[Turgeson]

Really?

Show me a flash page that can deliver multi-channel HD video with real-time game tracking. Why does Adobe get a free pass in the monopoly area? Think about it. Silverlight will give Flash some competition and make it better for everyone. MS has acknowledged their lag in some areas (IE8 is a still catching up to FF) and offers plenty of free tools to make stuff like Silverlight and Web Apps. Where are Adobe and Apple's Express editions?

[J. Blow]

.Net is the benefit

.Net adoption in the enterprise has been huge. There's little .Net uptake on the web side. Silverlight effectively bridges this gap.

[i_made_this]

Silverlight as Cross-Platform Nirvana?

That's the party line at Redmond. That's the big brag over Adobe Flash? Flash works cross-platform, too - always has. So, Redmond chose the wrong brag.

Here's an example of what many developers dislike about Flash: critical update versions still don't overwrite the old corrupt versions that were causing those critical vulnerabilities. If Silverlight can slay that dragon by overwriting old corrupt versions with its newly patched versions, it could catch on fast.

The irony is that most all of Flash' critical vulnerabilities have been caused by the ActiveX component in Internet Explorer.

I'd like to see how Silverlight's alleged Cross-Platform Nirvana helps users running the browser bundled in Windows.

"Apple just jammed Safari 3.1 down as part
of iTunes" - Goldfarb. It's also true that it's tough to develop a lousier browser than IE but Apple did it. Between the two, is it any wonder why Windows and Mac users alike have embraced Firefox as the default browser on their systems?

Now, there's some cross-platform nirvana that both MSFT and APPL could try to embrace.

[alegr]

ActiveX

"The irony is that most all of Flash' critical vulnerabilities have been caused by the ActiveX component in Internet Explorer. "

ActiveX (not the best name, BTW) is simply a plug-in architecture thet IE uses. "ActiveX component" in question _is_ Flash plugin itself, not any IE own component.

[James_U]

Simple Answer: Yes, they will.

If Windows Server, SQL Server, Exchange, COM, .NET and other MSFT products that were essentially nowhere 10 years ago are any indication of what will happen with SilverLight then the answer is clearly yes. Will it take time? Of course. How much is anybody's guess. However, there are simply too many MSFT-based developers in the world for this not grow deep roots over time. My best guess is that by 2013-2014 SilverLight will have near 30% or more of the market and will be the market leader in terms of new application development. By 2018, SilverLight will most likely enjoy the same success as previous MSFT development products.

[The_Decider]

THe number of MS only developers are shrinking

Besides, it is not like Flash is not already cross browser and platform.

The language Flash uses is total crap, but there is a real chance that MS will pull cross platform support if it gains enough market share.

This is a last ditch effort to try and keep their desktop dominance, but they know they need to pretend to play nice for it to have any chance.

Just like using Windows, developing for MS crap leads to nothing but headache and lost productivity and profits.

[tmorr]

Real Issue: RIA

This debate about rich media misses the larger issue of Rich Internet Applications (RIA). The strategic challenged that MS is facing is not about streaming video or other rich content -- it is about Adobe's very smart use of Flash to allow developers to begin creating elegant applications that run in a user's browser (and, now, off-line with AIR). We are just beginning to see these applications being released. By being able to leverage the .NET environment, MS is hoping to catch up in this area, particularly with the release of Silverlight 2.0

[michael_o]

Flash IDE stinks but MS stinks worse

The Flash IDE for developers is awful, but I'm definitely on the "Adobe sucks less" bandwagon: Silverlight had better offer something really great to get me to spend any time experimenting w/ it. I don't know why MS didn't just make a better IDE that compiled to SWF. There's even some guy who makes a C# to SWF compiler: they should've just purchased it. I don't see the benefit of writing for a new VM.

[The_Decider]

An IDE is independant of a language

If a language is so closely tied to an IDE,that you can say negative things about the language because of an IDE it is a language not worth using.

Of course. an IDE is more than useful.

[jemiller0]

It isn't a new VM...

It's a slimmed down version of the .NET Framework. Flash is pretty low quality IMHO. Flex's web services support is very buggy. I'd rather stick with writing server-side apps for the time being.

[AppleSuxLeo]

Silverlight will be the standard...

The Olympics , and MLB.COM are already using it. It uses less CPU cycles , while providing better quality and is fully cross-platform , and more flexible. I`m sure HULU will switch over , and then there is no turning back. MSFT has a winner here.

[The_Decider]

LOL

You are always good for a chuckle.

Since MS bribed the Olympics committee and MLB, it will be a success?

At least the reasoning ability of MS shills is constantly low.

Fully cross platform?

LOLOL

Better quality?

Prove it.

It might be true, with all the crap that MS flings on the wall, somethings gotta stick, right?

Less CPU cycles is not necessarily better, I wouldn't expect a MS fan to know that.

Besides, when has MS ever developed anything that is reasonably efficient?

[antonio_barcelona]

mlb.com... a good example?

I cannot find Silverlight anywhere in mlb.com. The site is really ugly, menus are not usable and a white rectangle is displayed in the home page.

I've realized that they use Flash and AJAX, but they are not doing anything special...

Maybe is because I am using Linux and Firefox? I have heard that there is a Linux version called Moonlight but the mbl.com website should show me a message asking to install missing plugins...

[t8]

Ha ha ha ha

Ha ha ha ha ha

[pugscanfly]

Give us something else...

if Silverlight provided more options for exporting like SVG with
javascript controls and true H264 video support, not this shackled
version Flash is offering, then we would be getting somewhere.
This would be a brave new app that would support ISO standards
and client side scripting. But Silverlight is just more of the same
proprietary stuff designed to line their pockets. Someone is going
to build an app that will finally appeal to developers and clients.
Browsers are so powerful these days, let them be the engine.

[AppleSuxLeo]

The_Decider has insider info...

that MSFT bribes users of Silverlight.What a nimrod this jackass is. Silverlight wins on quality , ease of coding , and total cross-platform abilities.

[The_Decider]

MS didn't pay MLB and the Olympic committee?

Yeah right shill.

[Vegaman_Dan]

Unless you have proof, then don't post such claims

If you have proof that Microsoft is paying people to use Silverlight, then you should post that proof. Otherwise, it's just a rumor or FUD.

Likewise, attacking The_Decider isn't helping. Your opinions are your own and as valid as The_Decider's. Being diplomatic and of a calm voice of reason will be far more effective than ranting.

[i_am_still_wade]

Silverlight is MS trying to take something back

A few years ago, to watch video over the internet, you needed a media player. There was Real Player, which lost out because it was a terrible product with lots of pushy "upgrade to pro" ads and lots of needless startup programs. Then there was Windows Media Player, which won out because Microsoft is so dominant.

But along comes Adobe, and they found a way to make video work in Flash. Rapidly, WMP became an afterthought for video streaming. So now Microsoft has lost something very precious, control of multimedia internet content.

Microsoft isn't an innovator, but they do know how to copy other people's idea. So instead of pushing their external application, they push a Flash clone. But this time, I don't think they will win. Flash is too entrenched. Google isn't going to use Silverlight for YouTube any time soon. And at the very least, this will force Adobe to shape up some. Competition is a good thing. But Silverlight will not give back to Microsoft control over the internet.

[Penguinisto]

Not sure...

MSFT could park Silverlight into a "critical" "security" patch for all the consumer knows (see also Internet Explorer 7, and WGA before the horde of bugs in it forced them to disclose that one).

Of course, with Firefox swallowing huge swaths of marketshare, coupled with governmental eyeballing on everything MSFT does, coupled still with Adobe willing and able to sue the crap out of MSFT for anti-trust infractions...?

MSFT has to be damned careful on how they push this one. Of course it'll show up in every service pack for anything that'll run a browser (and even the browser itself). Of course they openly admitted that they want to push it with any product that is even remotely related to graphics (Office? ***?)

[i]"Google isn't going to use Silverlight for YouTube any time soon."[/i]

Google could expressly forbid it for upload.

Yes, Flash is completely entrenched, but Windows isn't (at least not anymore). OSX is taking ever-larger chunks out of Windows' marketshare (which explains why they're so eager to push it into MS Office For Mac so badly), and as Windows fails, so will MSFT's ideas of pushing lock-in.

/P

[Turgeson]

If it lights a fire under Adobe

every MS hater should be welcoming Silverlight.

[Penguinisto]

Frickin' Genius!

[i]"What I want to avoid is arbitrarily pushing things on people's machines," he said. "Apple just jammed Safari 3.1 down as part of iTunes."[/i]

- Some MSFT flack, lying his arse off.

I think Apple may have been able to defuse MSFT's habit of bundling whatever tech they want into products just to force it on the population...

If it wasn't for the recent (and completely optional) Safari selection box as part of Apple's Software Update thingy, MSFT would've likely jammed Silverlight into every nook and cranny of Windows Update, and would have done so with impunity.

Now they have to be careful. :)

/P

[y82whs]

Read headlines?

Umm, you don't think the EU fining MSFT over a billion dollars had something to do with MSFT *not* bundling silverlight? They also paid RealNetworks about 700 million or so, so $2 billion and counting?

And the EU has now established the precedent that they won't tolerate it?

As opposed to somehow Apple with 4% share having any impact at all....

[gsmiller88]

Hmm...Adobe or Microsoft...

Tough choice. Both Adobe and Microsoft offer sub-par
products in their respective categories. When a problem arises
in one of those products, you might see an update within 3
months if you're lucky. I welcome alternatives to Flash, but I
dunno if Microsoft can keep it together long enough to truly
rival its dominance. Look at all the products Microsoft has
abandoned in the past, and look at how little support they offer
for non-Windows platforms. If Microsoft will give it the time
and attention Silverlight needs to survive, then I welcome it.

[kelmon]

No Mac Dev Tools = No Use

This is essentially the same comment as I've posted on the
subject before but I will not support a cross-platform
technology that can only be developed for on a single platform.
Flash might not be great but at least Adobe supports
development on the Mac whereas Silverlight is currently
Windows-only. Honestly, I just don't trust Microsoft not to
either let the runtimes for non-Windows platforms lag behind or
jank support for them entirely once Silverlight becomes
established. In this respect I see Adobe as being much more
neutral in this and therefore will not be installing Silverlight.

[lifelonglego]

cross-platform, learn how to read

You are wrong. did you not read the article? Microsoft Office for mac comes with expression which is used for MAKING silverlight content

[rmonson]

What about the Enterprise? Try Curl!

While Microsoft and Adobe battle it out for the consumer market,
Curl, a RIA technology for the desktop, is gaining ground in the
enterprise.

Curl is not as common on the desktop as Flash, but that's not a
concern because their clients are enterprise customers who control
the desktop of their employees anyway. Curl is simply better
technology.

[ralfthedog]

I thought cURL was a tool for transfering files.

Or are we talking about two different things?

[brudinie]

I just can't believe:

"Goldfarb said the response from Web developers convinces him that Microsoft is on the right path."

I'm a web developer and I am deeply suspicious of Microsoft and would never develop anything using Silverlight simply because it only works fully on a M$ platform and partially on the Mac. Adobe don't have an OS agenda and have made Flash available on most platforms (including Linux).
I've spent ages learning how to hand code websites to strict W3 standards and the thing that has always tripped me up is IE6 and IE7 (because it doesn't follow standards). How can Microsoft expect web developers to support Silverlight when they have such a bad record of playing fair? Guess what Microsoft, you will never own the internet and Silverlight is a crappy attempt at doing just that.