Comments on: Who wins, loses with browser-less Windows 7

Microsoft's move to offer Windows 7 in Europe without a browser could help rivals and mean some added bucks for PC makers, but are consumers getting a raw deal?

[biffhenerson]

Browsers are free. Not much to win in a browser war other than bragging rights. The presentation of the content of all browsers SHOULD be the same as it is a standard after all. :-) Each browser can promote its bells and whistles and performance. The consumer can choose. If they care. Lets get real. Most people who use this forum are tech savey people. We are the minority. Most consumers want a browser. They dont care which one it is. They just want access to the internet. Once they have one and are able to access the internet, they have no loyalty to any particular brand. Not even the brand they are using. They have no clue what brand they are using. All they want is the internet. Eliminating the browser from an operating system install would do nothing but inconveniance the user. "Where's my internet?!!" they will say. "You have to download that separately" we will say. Since they are not really idiots, they will say "How do I download a browser from the internet if I dont have a browser to access the internet?" Interesting....

[blafouille]

EU know how to do it,they even say is the right move in the right direction but we will procede with the court anyway....

[alflanagan]

People who can't figure out how to install a browser in their operating system shouldn't be installing their own OS. Calling this a "disaster" is pure hyperbole. And, another chance for people who don't understand antitrust to bash its enforcement.

[falenraith]

Exactly, anyone capable of installing an OS should have their favorite/critical setup programs for browser, firewall, antivirus etc burned on a disc for immediate install after they finish with the OS install anyway. I use Avast Antivirus, Zonealarm Firewall and Firefox browser and wouldn't do an install without having their current version downloaded, burned and ready to go. Expecting Microsoft to do the right thing and have a link for that stuff is wishful thinkging at best and could be considered delusional ;)

[tomasm2005]

Not everyone re-installing OS should necessarily have software packages. Upgrading Windows is easily as clicking next .. next .. next ... Most of them are permanent IE users and don't care about getting another browser. So when they end up in Vista without a browser .. that would really suck!

[funkyboot]

Well let's keep in mind that people in the EU will no longer be able to simply upgrade from Vista to W7. They're going to have to perform a clean install. That's going to be a nightmare in and of itself!

Now clearly this is Microsoft playing hardball with the EU, but only in response to the EU playing hardball with Microsoft, who were responding to MS engaging in legitimately anti-competitive behavior in the original IE vs. Netscape browser wars. This was a completely avoidable set of circumstances for both the EU and MS, and in the end the consumers (the only innocent party here) are going to be forced to suffer.

The EU should never have ruled that including a browser in a modern OS was a no-go but MS shouldn't be playing entirely innocent either: the EU was reacting to some of Microsoft's past behavior. Both parties are completley in the wrong here. Microsoft could include Firefox, Chrome, Opera and Safari in addition to IE with W7, but decided against it. And the EU shouldn't have been so bone-headed and stubborn in their ruling.

My question is: who will be the first party to turn away in this game of chicken. Someone's going to have to give in here.

[jcurrin]

The EU has proven yet again how ignorance and bigotry win out over that common sense. Why don't they make pepsi sell coke in there machines...it would only be fair right??

[Hunnter2k3]

I don't remember Coca Cola deliberately making it hard for you to drink Coke, or holding back the flavor so that other drinks will have to fall back to be equally as bad.

;)

[blafouille]

they do not drink medicine...

[Jlmc727]

I wonder what the EU would do and say if Microsoft states they have no plans on selling Windows 7 in Europe you will have to stay with Vista.

[Hunnter2k3]

"Enjoy shooting yourself in the foot, guys. Byeee!"

Because they really would be stupid to do such a thing.

[gggg sssss]

@hunter2k3 why, tdo you think teh EU could invent an alternative operating system? They treid. See how well that worked for them.

[TomPhilo]

I think this is a great opportunity for PC resellers to make some real money - with every PC sold they sell for an extra $10 a CD with the 6 most popular browsers on it in their own country - and the user gets to decide which one to install; or better yet for $35 sell a 4 / 8 / 16 /32 GIG USB stick with all 6 (9,or 10 or whatever) browsers on it that the users can install from - then the stick can be used as extra memory / backup locaiton for their data. The PC Makers provide a needed service, the users get something from it at the same time and MS complies with the EU regulation.

Tom

http://www.taphilo.com

[monkeyfun14]

Yes because grandma is going to know how to install a browser from a usb stick right?

[bgiannes]

So with no internet browser now do you browser to find a browser and download it?

haha!?

[monkeyfun14]

Some idiots on here suggest FTP.

As if someone tech savvy is going to know how to use a FTP client.

[bgiannes]

well there is no wget so ftp commandline is the only way.

maybe MS should include elinks (commandline browser).... haha!

[Hunnter2k3]

FTP.

@ monkeyfun14
Who says you need to?
It can easily be done in the background, all the user needs to do is click a nice little icon.

[bgiannes]

where did i put that Netscape CD, 10 years ago?

[Hunnter2k3]

Smashed it into powder using a sledgehammer?

[bgiannes]

oh ya, that's where it is, thanx

[bgiannes]

but really....

IE is built into win7, so you just open any Folder and type in www.firefox.com into the address: and go from there...

[Hunnter2k3]

@bgiannes
But it isn't, not anymore.

IE has been removed from Windows core.
All that remains is the mshtml executable. (which IE uses, Winamp, Explorer, and quite a few programs.)

[bgiannes]

ha? so it's ftp script icon then.

[Hunnter2k3]

Pretty much.

And to be honest, i would prefer this. (alongside a decent package manager)
I rarely use 30% of the features in Windows, and deleting them is a massive headache if you have to do it often.
Yes, you could create a script to erase them, but you shouldn't need to.

Microsoft already partially had a service that would identify unknown file types and suggest programs to use.
If they actually went this route, it would be fantastic, for them and us.
They could actually offer hosting space to 3rd parties for programs as well, they could sell programs on behalf of other companies, with some share going to them for hosting.
They get money for hosting, they get everyone off their back, and we have a lovely package manager to manage our programs.
Please steal my idea Microsoft. You already have the base of this system as far back as XP. (not sure if it was in 2000... i think it was)

[Renegade Knight]

I never liked the hooks IE had into the OS. Every OS should have a basic browser, maybe only on a "Word Pad" level. However you need something to go get a better browser. Hopefully with the separation you can now do, secrity went up a notch.

[alegr]

Care to tell exactly what hooks IE had into the OS?

[blafouille]

Linpus linux is a quite simple OS...

[port8zero]

First of all who exactly do you think is going to be doing these upgrades, old ladies that can't type? Come on! you alway's go download the latest drivers, anti-virus and browser before you upgrade! if you don't, your not going to be able to do anything! so getting on the internet is going to be the least of your worries!

[tomasm2005]

Why doesn't any regulator have any problem with Ubuntu and most other Linux distros shipping with Firefox or Konquerer or whatever that comes with it. What about Safari in Firefox?

[geralt]

Because Firefox, Seamonkey, Icewisel, Opera, Chrome or Konqueror can be removed and replaced with browser of you choice. There is no way to completely remove IE. Even if there is other browser used as default, Windows is forcing you to use IE for update, help and other tasks.

[deanbvfx]

They dont complain to Linux cos "shipping with Firefox OR Konqueror", Linux doesn't tie any particular browser to Linux, in fact most programs tend to change from distro to distro. MS ties their own browser into Windows, no variety.

[Xenite227]

Here's a wild concept, Put IE on the install disk and ASK the customer during install if they would like to install IE... I know it's a risky and radical idea to ask the customer what they want during the install but it just could work! :P

This has nothing to do with antitrust anyways, It's just the EU and another countries shaking down MS/INTEL and so on. Everytime these country's get into debt they slap a anti-trust lawsuit on them and shake the global piggy bank for more cash.

[port8zero]

It is on the disk. you can't fully remove the browser from the Windows 7 it's just not visible when you install it but window 7 .net 3.5 - 4 framework is integrated with IE rendering engine so unless they wanted to break every window in windows 7 there is no way to fully remove it.

[highwayismyway]

Another Microsoft pouting gimmick to punish for their bad behavior. They could have easily offered an option to download or install competing browsers. Everyone knows that Mozilla Firefox kicks IE's crap. But no Microsoft has to play hardball. When are you people going to get it? Ubuntu is free its customizable and it kicks Microsoft's crappy windows products. Yeah I used to be a paid for Microsoft poster boy, but the truth sucks. Microsoft sucks and today their are wonderful alternatives to both internet exploder and Windows buttview. Give ubuntu a try they have free downloads and its marketshare is taking off. Why do you think Microsoft has fallen from 98% market share to 85%? Its called Ubuntu (free linux) and OSX. I have nothing bad to say about OSX, but its a costly solution. Whereas Ubuntu is a complete, beautiful wonderful OS. Get off the Microsoft punishment, bully ride. Take a try before you listen to any Microsoft fanboys naysaying it. And then tell Microsoft and their gestapo to take a hike to hell.

[st430]

the same logic,
there should not be text editor since it's a apps...
there should not be a modem dialer...cause 3com wants it.
no media player....cause real player
no calculator....cause casio or TI want that business.
no games...cause EA want to sell them theirs.
no browser...because of another monopoly google.
no search engine...becaue of google again.
no anti virus or firewall ...cause symentic wants it.
no zip...cause of winzip etc.
no outlook express or outlook cause may be google want to sell you google mail or yahoo mail ?
no harddrive partition apps...
no usb drivers...
no paint...caue coral want to sell you coral draw or photoshop.
no pdf reader..
no messenger..
no everything...
just sell you a core compiler...
wait a minute...how come linux and apple o/s has all the above plus some extra?
EU is just a bunch of Euro trash.

[j_a_s_p_e_r]

Amen. Thank you. People need to understand that the new war is a war of economies. EU has declared war a long time ago when they illegally funded Airbus over Boeing. This is not about the consumer, not by a long shot. This is racketeering on a multi-country scale with the US being the only stumbling block to their becoming the true world power

[blafouille]

it is how you get it...

[deanbvfx]

EU already has a media player-less version of windows (Windows N)
EA don't sell solitaire or minesweeper, in fact I don't think anybody does
one of the reasons why the browser was allowed dot be tied to Windows is cos it also ties Ms's search engine too.
As for desktop search EU already had SP1 change so it could allow Google Desktop to run properly
Windows has no inbuilt AV, and Firewall I think they were told to put in.
Windows don't open .rars or .7z's so you still need a separate one for that.
Win7 doesn't have Live Mail, Messenger, photo gallery or many other's installed by default, its a separate package now, has been for a while.
Partition editors are kinda core to an OS than other stuff, even then it's only basic, I still find myself using Gpart or SwissKnife.
Drivers are third party
Paint n Photoshop aren't in the same league, if they bundled something capable of Photoshop levels then the'yd be in trouble
Windows has never had a PDF reader
Once again Messenger isn't on by default since Vista. Its all part of the Live Apps thing

As for why Linux is exempt look a few comments up, and for Apple I have no idea, I believe its cos they are an OEM, so have full control. Like Dell is allowed to install its Dell Dock thing, cos its an OEM.

[The_happy_switcher]

If the laws in this country had been enforced Netscape would have been a major browser force in the 1990s and not just another tread mark under the Microsoft Monopoly Tank. And, Microsoft would not enjoy the browser monopoly they have today.

[st430]

if netscape has new feature like firefox did...they won't be dead ...
they stop making new version and re-cycle same junk look prettier.
blam it on themselves.

[Methuss]

If that had been true, Windows would never have been integrated with DOS. Remember how Windows 95 could be booted up with no GUI just by editing a hidden file called boot.ini on the root drive? MS integrated Windows with DOS to kill off all the other disk operating system makers (PC-DOS, DR-DOS, etc) after rigging WFW 3.11 to install ONLY on MS-DOS failed to lock the GUI down to MS-DOS as people found ways around the restriction... and totally got away with it. No one at the DOJ so much as burped over that.

This is a long running, 15-year pattern of tying things together to protect product share and the DOJ doing nothing.

[deanbvfx]

See everyones bashing EU, but DOJ tried this decades ago. MS said IE ws a core part of the OS and couldn't be removed, yet here we are with them removing IE form Win7 ( okay I know Windows has changed alot under the hood since then, but why can they remove it now?)

[cary1]

This is stupid

EU should instead make PC makers sell PCs with Windows optional, because that is the root cause. The customers can then choose the OS either preinstalled or as an installation disc. All modern OS come with a browser. This way, there will be a) no Microsoft monopoly in OS, b) no monopoly in browser c) Microsoft might actually make IE better and make versions for Linux and Mac

Now that I think about it, it should apply the same rules to Apple. People should be able to purchase hardware and software separately. EU should also force Apple to make OS X installable on any hardware. won't that be fun

[st430]

option?
netbook started as all linux...but 98% people choose windows even when they have to pay more.
check dell and hp's website...
they sell the same netbook on both linux and window but still 98% market is now xp's
blame that on users don't want to learn new tricks .
if MS don't give free software like media player or browser, they will never brave enough to go buy one to try one.
Spending extra money is not in people's nature.
free software beats everything.

about apple.
just like you buy a cell phone. it comes with what software it has...you cannot make nokia phone to have to work with iphone software...
your samsung VCR don't have to run sony program...
it's bull

[cary1]

@st430

Your comment about Apple doesn't make sense. You can's apply the reasoning of a VCR to a computer. They are very different devices. VCR is designed to do only one thing. If Samsung VCR came with Sony "software", it would still play tapes, nothing more. Computer on the other hand is a different device. It's multifunctional. You can buy different hardware and software combinations.

[jcurrin]

How is it the responsibility of any company to make it easy for competition...Why in the hell is apple allowed to shove OSX out its crack with safari....If microsoft has to limit it's browser integration so should apple unix any of the linux build...EVERY OS should come with out a browser leveling the playing field for everyone not just the little guys..

[Hunnter2k3]

Microsoft used it's position to kill off many companies through anti-competitive means.
It is like throwing dust in someone's eyes if you were racing them at the Olympics, breaking someone's car before a race, etc.

There are laws in business, and they broke them countless times and have gotten away with it for years.
Microsoft aren't the only company who do this though, but they are certainly one of the biggest, and they reach all around the world with their "godly" arms and lock people in, every year.

[st430]

yep...if you don't bundle...
then everyone has to not bundle.

I am not blaming MS for giving us so much software for free over the year.
.or else we still stuck at the stone age with IBM dos interface with only FTP for file transfer etc.

I think over the year, MS has introduce the whole world so much more way to do everything.

[st430]

"Microsoft aren't the only company who do this though, but they are certainly one of the biggest, and they reach all around the world with their "godly" arms and lock people in, every year.
"
if the biggest car company decided to give you free car ..would you take it?
it's not like they hike the price much (including inflation).
I think you are getting a better and better deal on each window verison.
so what's to complain?

[Hunnter2k3]

@st430
>if the biggest car company decided to give you free car ..would you take it?

Not really, because i would know what they are trying to do to their competitors.
Being 100% serious here.
Chances of that happening are almost nil, though.
But i can see where you are coming from.
Plus, i don't rely on cars anyway. :)

It's also why i wouldn't shop at Walmart, because i know the kind of dodgy things they have done to defeat competition.
A friend told me what happened in his town to a shop that was across from a newly opened Walmart, Walmart lowered prices to a big loss, other shop died off, then they raised them again. (not instantly, over time)

[rmva]

Answer: memory stick.

[beachfront24]

Let's see, download firefox on another computer or use the one in Bestbuy that is connected to the internet and copy to file to a usb drive. Jam the USB drive in the new computer and install Firefox. How hard is this? Why is this concept to hard to grasp.

I would actually prefer a computer without IE. I totally hate it and it is unsecure. My other issue with it is that to do updates on Windows even if the default internet program is set to Firefox, you are required to use IE to do the update.

[funkyboot]

How hard is it? Too difficult to expect most people to realistically do. Seriously, most people are NOT technology enthusiasts. I can't change the oil in my car or rewire my guitars. My mechanic and my guitar tech might think these are basic things that everyone should be able to do, but I'd probably be more adept at getting a browser without it being included in an OS than they are. Keep in mind, not everyone is like you.

[dumbspammers]

"Forrester Research analyst J.P. Gownder said that the result is something that is very unfriendly to the very consumers that the EU is allegedly trying to protect"

Oh, for Ghu's sake, Forrest Gump! When AOL was the primary way for Amercians to get on the Internet, was there ever a problem getting an AOL CD or floppy? No! and if Opera, Firefox, Chrome, etc. want Europeans to use their browsers, you can bet there will be millions of install CDs flooding the checkout stands in Paris, Frankfurt, London, and the Isle of Man.

[Fatesrider]

Microsoft is obviously going to do everything it can to mess up the settlement. Rather than bundling in several options from which a consumer can pick and choose, it will say, "No Internet browsing for you in the EU!" and leave it go at that. They'd rather you can't get online at all than give people choice. The EU courts should have been clearer, but Microsoft should have included IE, plus Firefox, Chrome, Safari and made it an option to install one or all of them. Conversely, they could have put in a check mark that allows you to install IE or not, leaving it up to the consumer.

It's all about choice, and Microsoft is making sure that by sticking to the letter of the settlement, rather than the spirit, that the consumer gets no choice at all.

Great marketing there, guys... But then, Microsoft's business strategy has always been about maximizing profits at the expense of the customer. This tactic surprises me not at all.

[cosuna]

Hello Ina Fried FUD machine. Sponsored in part by Microsoft Bill and Steve.