Comments on: Microsoft launches IE 8 with a smile

At its Mix 09 event, Microsoft begins its campaign to persuade Web surfers to give its browser another chance.

[hmdz105]

There is no perfect browser and yet there are many good ones. Why should we try to use IE while we can have the customization of Firefox, the speed of Chrome, and the adaptability of Opera.. ? Since the launch of Mozilla Firefox, I have not clicked on that big "e" any more.

[Mark_Anderson]

Because it might be OK?

[jaspal.m]

LOL
Kiddo....u use all those browser,,,,just not to use IE?

[MPB]

so true. lol

[sharmajunior]

The new IE 8 official release shrinks the search box on any page to sooooo tiny that you can hardly see it. Therefore it is not worth using until they fix that problem or until the developers make the sites compatible.

[Renegade Knight]

If IE 8 offered the Customization, Speed, and Adaptablity all in one. Why the heck not use it? No idea if actually does though.

[CDubber]

Yes everyone, let's give the browser that almost destroyed the Web with its ridiculous and hamfisted attempts to force everyone to walk lockstep with their crappy non-standards-conforming ways another chance! NOT.

Today when I come across a website that says "Windows IE required to view this site," I leave and I never go back. I suggest everyone else do the same. Fortunately those websites are becoming fewer by the day...

It's not your Internet, Microsoft. And it never will be.

[hmdz105]

Yes, they are all time losers since their browser forced web developers into developing non-standard html/htm pages. And today is not Microsoft's day on the Internet, since their bloated browser can't even display a JQuery page correctly.
Why should we ever develop specifically for IE while there are standards like W3.org ?

[rapier1]

You mean non-confirming standards like XMLHTTPRequest? Look, standards compliance is necessary and useful but at times you need to be willing to move past the standard for the sake of progress. I'm not excusing Microsoft's poor *implementation* of standards but I'm not going to ding them for trying to develop new methods.

[LuvThatCO2]

"Yes everyone, let's give the browser that almost destroyed the Web"

Almost destroyed the web? Nice attempt at historical revisionism. By including IE in its OS, Microsoft is the one who brought the web to the masses in the first place. Netscape was popular, sure, but having a browser built in to the OS really caused the web's popularity to take off. Remember... prior to that you couldnt just go and download a web browser...because you didnt have a browser to use to do that, and few people understood FTP.

As far as standards go, there's two types of standards - what some egg-heads came up with while locked away at some university somewhere, and what is the actual standard in practice. Like it or not, IE is still the dominent browser by a significant margin. It *is* the standard, by definition. All the others are the non-standards.

[another_cissp]

The newer generation of web developers are a bunch of whiners. Be thankful you do not have to write web site for ie3 and netscape. It has always amazed me how Internet Explorer won the browser war, yet Netscape standards, for the most part, won the standards war (Thanks W3C). The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them.

[ballmerisanape]

LuvThatCO2

Why stop there.. lets praise microsoft for including IE in its OS.... that decision alone enabled the creation of an entire industry focused on removing malware from windows. Think of all the jobs it has created over the years!

Of course.. bundling a browser that wasn't liked to the OS was an option... but we don't want to talk about that.. after all.. it would have given people a choice..

[JoeNYC]

IE won the browser wars because they included features that developers wanted first. This is how MS wins most of the software wars. People seem to miss it but they really do cater to developers and provide the best IDE's on the market. It's the developers that push their software for them. For example, many people don't give Silverlight a chance versus Flash but wait and see. The development environment for Silverlight is much better than Flash and that's why it will eventually win. It may take a few years but it will happen.

[odubtaig]

Wow, I've never seen people write so much crap in such a short space.

If the MS way was the de-facto standard they wouldn't have to bother making IE more compliant with the W3C standards (LuvThatCO2, there's a name that screams of favouring fantasy over fact). They're having to make it compliant with W3C because their 'standard' isn't. MS: not known for complying to a standard if it didn't benefit them. When the standard MS is using is not their own but precisely the one 'some eggheads' produced (which is what IE8 is trumpeting in case you hadn't noticed) then the 'egghead' standard _is_ the standard. I'm also locing your disdain for the educated, I take it they wouldn't have you for being too boneheaded and up yourself.

I like how the only contribution ever brought up is XMLHTTPREQUEST (rapier1). I'm sure all the work of the W3C is just overshadowed by that one contribution. It may be a fulcrum but MS didn't also contribute XML, Java or XHTML without which there would still be no AJAX and XMLHTTPREQUEST would be a solution looking for a problem.

Now all I've got to do is wait and see if IE8 lives up to its promise of better standards compliance. That's how MS can cater for developers now (JoeNYC). Anyone proclaiming any version of IE before version 7 to be anything other than difficult either hasn't done web developement or is lying. Remind me, who was last to support PNG transparency again?

Oh and, another_cissp? It's not like in 1996 when web designers only had to throw up a couple of tables and a GIF. You didn't even have CSS. You had it easy. Let me guess, you're in management now and you haven't actually done any web design for some years? I don't suppose you know what happens sometimes when you put the contents of a div on separate lines to the div tags? You know anything about how IE6 handles borders differently? Ever done anything even close to a RTF editor in a web page? It's just a teeny bit more complex than a tr td.

[rapier1]

@odubtaig,

Just as an FYI you are confusing Java with JavaScript. Personally, I only brought up XMLHTTPRequest because its a good example of people reaching outside of the standards to create a fundamentally important game changing technology. It doesn't give MS a pass on standards implementation (which I clearly stated). However, extensions to technology within a body of standards is a different beast than standards compliance.

Also, I don't understand what you are saying here "It may be a fulcrum but MS didn't also contribute XML, Java or XHTML without which there would still be no AJAX and XMLHTTPREQUEST would be a solution looking for a problem."

Its like saying that if there we're generators and integrated circuits the internet would have been a solution looking for a problem. Its sort of obvious that technology has a tendency to build on other technology. If XML and JavaScript didn't exist there would be no XMLHTTPRequest period. It just wouldn't exist because the underlying technology didn't exist.

[t8]

@ CDubber

Totally agree with you.
Why should we use a browser that tried to destroy the open Web from a company that tried to lessen the Internet.
They don't deserve us as their customers.

[Mark_Anderson]

"Why should we ever develop specifically for IE while there are standards like W3.org ?"

Because most business don't give a toss about them?

@t8

I'm sure they'll miss you. Or not.

[aodhanc]

Now that IE8 is officially launched I wonder how fast its market share will increase.

So far today it is at 1.83%

http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version-US-daily-20090319-20090319-bar

[sengar01]

this is realy great work from Microsoft. Hats off to MICROSOFT.
Here are my top eight reasons why Internet Explorer 8 is my favorite browser and deserves to be yours too:

1. You want a web that moves as fast as you do: Highlight an address, click the blue "Accelerator" button ( ), and see all the things you can do instantly ? like mapping, searching, and translating. Check out Accelerators from Digg, Facebook, eBay, and others.
2. You want to know if it's raining outside: Visit live.com, search for ?Seattle Weather? (or any major city), hover over the search result, and click the green "Web Slice" button ( ) to add a weather Web Slice to your Favorites Bar. As of this morning there are over 1,200 Web Slices, Accelerators, and add-ons available worldwide in the IE8 add-on gallery.
3. You like everyone to get along: And that includes wanting the web sites you visit to work well with your browser. IE8 is the only browser to include multiple rendering engines to address backwards compatibility? hit a site that doesn't seem right, hit the Compatibility View button, and you're on your way.
4. You're a visual learner: See pictures of what you?re looking for as you type in the Instant Search box ? rich search results in action!
5. You want to find it again, fast: To quickly find sites you?ve visited before, simply use the new Smart Address Bar which searches your history, favorites, and feeds.
6. You like your privacy: Enjoy more control over your personal information and privacy on the Web with InPrivate.
7. You want an edge against the bad guys (aka security): Internet Explorer 8 offers unparalleled protection against malware ? it's 10 times safer than Internet Explorer 7, 4 times safer than Chrome, 2.8 times safer than Safari, and 2.3 times safer than Firefox.
8. You hate interruptions: If one tab crashes, you can re-launch it without affecting your browsing experience ? your other tabs keep right on working.

[SwissJay]

Dude, I love your copy/paste job from a UNICODE system. You didn't fix any of the quotation marks, apostrophes, etc. Was that an internal Microsoft propaganda mail you posted?

[totocalimero]

Is this a copy/paste of an MS press release? Who would write this kind of propaganda? My personal favorite is your point #7. What data do you have to back this up? How do you "measure" security of a browser?

[sengar01]

These are few reasons which i came to know from other microsoft sites. I have not tested or verified any of them. But if IE8 has these features then that is really great.

[srhoda]

These are so stupid. Firefox has these features for a while now. This one really cracks me up:

"2. You want to know if it's raining outside: Visit live.com, search for ?Seattle Weather? (or any major city), hover over the search result, and click the green "Web Slice" button ( ) to add a weather Web Slice to your Favorites Bar. As of this morning there are over 1,200 Web Slices, Accelerators, and add-ons available worldwide in the IE8 add-on gallery. "

Uhh okay, much easier with Forecast plugin for firefox. Best of all you can see all the weather data on the status bar without going to any website.

"8. You hate interruptions: If one tab crashes, you can re-launch it without affecting your browsing experience ? your other tabs keep right on working."

Umm okay... given Microsoft history the whole dang browser will crash, not a tab.

[Mystigo]

2. You want to know if it's raining outside: Visit live.com, search for ?Seattle Weather? (or any major city), hover over the search result, and click the green "Web Slice" button ( ) to add a weather Web Slice to your Favorites Bar. As of this morning there are over 1,200 Web Slices, Accelerators, and add-ons available worldwide in the IE8 add-on gallery.

Um. I can think of a different way.

[t8]

Thanks for the info (free advertising) Microsoft.

[screamapillar]

Does anyone here really select a web browser based on its capacity to give you a weather forcast? Seriously, tell me it isn't so!

[Dalkorian]

And they say prostitution is illegal. HA!

[edgedesign]

You've got to be kidding. IE has been behind for years and IE 8 is no different. MS programmers can't even figure out how to code a standards-compliant browser with IE 8 scoring only 20 on the Acid 3 test.

Looks like several more years of looking for 'IE hacks' to make simple web programming work with this piece of garbage.

BROWSE HAPPY: Use Firefox, Safari or Opera.

[totocalimero]

What's the point of switching back to IE for the average Joe who has tasted Firefox? Firefox is very good, relatively secure and offers fantastic "add-ons" like AdBlock Plus and Firebug (for those who build website, this is a must have) and is almost standard compliant (not perfect but much better than IE.)

In other words, what is the reward MS is giving average Joe for the pain of going back to IE (with all the rendering bugs IE 8 will introduce with its different quirk modes)?

Also, what about security? Will this new version of IE be full of holes like IE 6 was. IE 6 was so bad in terms of security that a malicious web site could install an Active X on your machine without your permission. I know, they fixed it at some point, but who has time to take a chance with IE 8?

The IT departments of big corporations are probably going to take the same approach with IE 8 as they did with Vista. They all have tons of web-based applications they use to run their business. They spent massive amounts of time and money to make these systems work correctly with a "corporate mandated" browser (mostly IE 6 or IE 7.) Will they be willing to debug - again - the quirks IE 8 is going to introduce? My bet is they won't bother because this is not worth it, especially these days. IT departments will invest their money only if they can justify a return on investment to senior management. What's the added value of running their business apps in IE 8 compared to what they use right now?

The bottom line is that IE 8 is not worth the pain and the cost to fix what is currently working fine, or at least well enough.

I suspect IE 8 will be to browsers what Vista was to operating systems. Not worth the pain if what you have right now works fine.

[screamapillar]

Why IE? Ok, Firefox's memory leak issues are a pain, you have to concede that. Otherwise it is a good browser. Chrome still doesn't run everything. Almost everyone is forced to use IE at work and so it is familiar. There are a bunch of reasons. Doesn't make IE any good, granted, but there are heaps of reasons.

[screamapillar]

You are also assuming IT departments will learn from their mistakes... doesn't sound like the norm to me. In addition, if there were less bugs, it might put their jobs at risk. Lets all praise IE for creating jobs lol

[BigGuns149]

While I have been an acolyte of Mozilla since before Firefox was Firebird or Phoenix, I have to admit that some of the advantages to using Firefox aren't as compelling as they used to be. A lot of the neat features that were used to encourage people to switch in the early days of Firefox (eg. tabbed browsing, private browsing, etc.) have since been duplicated in IE. Add in the memory leaks that still seem to plague Firefox and it is easy to see thatt the case for existing IE users to abandon it for FF or Opera isn't as compelling as it once was.

I agree with you that some of the addons are neat, but to be honest I don't use a significant number of the addons because they slow down the web browser and increase memory usage some dramatically. Considering that new versions of Mozilla sometimes break the updates I am reluctant to get too tied to using an update that may get broken in a few months with the next major update of FF.

IE8 may not offer much compelling to existing FF or Opera users, but FF doesn't offer IE users much beyond a nebulous concept of greater security.

[rmva]

Opera? Never heard of it.

[rhsc]

it's one of those musical plays isn't it?

[Dalkorian]

Nice way to prove your ignorance you two. I don't use Opera either (honestly never tried it), but I've at least HEARD of it.

I think I hear your winblows master calling you. Must be whipping time again, maybe you should scan for viruses now?

[The_happy_switcher]

I wonder how many seconds until some hacker finds a hole and starts logging keystrokes from your bank account login.

[CrashPad63]

That is only if you are using Safari!! You know the one that got hacked in 10 seconds!!!!

[another_cissp]

I bet longer than it took hack to hack into safari at Pwn2Own 2009.

[Mystigo]

That Pwn2Own is so phony. Eevryone knows what they will be trying to hack weeks in advance. The guy (who I admit is very good), loads his hack that he has worked on for who knows how many weeks or months, on to a thumbdrive and voila -the Mac is hacked in only 10 seconds. Wow how he do dat? Apple must be pee themselves.

[Mark_Anderson]

Actually they probably should since they had two distinct hacks on the first day and were the primary target of every hacker who entered the competition.

[r13k1]

YO Applehasnorocks, I thought someone went back in time and convinced your mom abortion is a good thing! Guess not your back with your troll wisdom? Good luck to the next time traveler!

[The_happy_switcher]

I'll bet you've never even travelled out of your parent's basement, loser.

[JuggerNaut]

@CrashPad63

Hmmm... Looks like IE8 (even with extra built-in security) took the fall just as quickly...

..."Next up, Nils. Just Nils- you know, like ?Prince? or ?Madonna?. With a little tweaking, he ran a sleek exploit against IE8, defying Microsoft?s latest built in protection technologies- DEP (Data Execution Prevention) as well as ASLR (Address Space Layout Randomization) to take home the Sony Vaio and $5,000 from ZDI"...

http://dvlabs.tippingpoint.com/blog/2009/03/18/pwn2own-2009-day-1---safari-internet-explorer-and-firefox-taken-down-by-four-zero-day-exploits

[banzaigtv]

Internet Explorer has been my sole browser until I discovered other browsers. I wanted to keep IE7 as my main browser, but I just could not get away from Firefox due to its fast performance and features. Now with this new version, IE stands as the most improved browser and once again, it has become my primary browser. It may not have a download manager like Firefox's Download Helper and for that reason, I would keep Firefox as my back-up. Other than that, IE8 is a great browser!

[niravbarodia]

Guess wat you get when u click on "Get the facts on browser performance" on the new IE8 page.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/default.aspx

We are sorry, the page you requested cannot be found.

lol....

[screamapillar]

Now that is customer service!

lol

No other browser can offer you that lol

[insane consumer]

I use IE because I hate having to reinstall the support software, such as media players and such. I've tried Firefox but the experience was not better than IE. So why use another one beside IE unless I want to be a misanthrope about Microsoft.

[techman21]

Maybe to avoid drive-by downloads and direct attack vectors into the OS.

[Dalkorian]

If he wanted to avoid that stuff, he wouldn't be using M$ crapware to begin with.

[BigGuns149]

Other from Flash which has different versions for IE and Mozilla/Opera/Chrome what do you have to reinstall? Microsoft's own Windows Media Player requires little more than to download a small plugin, once. I remember back in Mozilla 0.8-0.9(before FF even existed) that I had some issues, but I can't say I have seen anything like that in years.

[edgedesign]

Buy a Mac and you wouldn't have to worry about installation hassles just because you want to use a competing web browser or media player.

[Rod Roddy]

I don't see why people don't just let others be, why such a f@&king issue when it comes to internet browsers? it's like religion...or a cult. I'll be damned if anyone tries to convert me from using what I use(by force) too many other IMPORTANT issues in the world, like a crappy economy, war, and global warming. We're just talking about browsers here people.

[Renegade Knight]

@edgedesign

You have to worry about compatability issues with a Mac. Not hard to fix, but you still don't get something that "just works".

[edgedesign]

@ Renegade Knight

With so many 3rd party software developers, every OS will experience some level of compatibility issues.

As a developer, it seems to me that MS works more to protect it's market share than they do to innovate. They have a long history of coding their own apps or OS to sabotage 3rd party apps. The fact that they continue to snub their noses at web standards seems to be right in line with that strategy IMO.

[myles taylor]

I don't know if we should give them another chance. With their track record and now the fact that they are playing catchup, plus the fact that there are so many other great options out there, why give them another chance?

[Dalkorian]

Because we're incapable of learning from history?

[bimmin]

I'd love to see Microsoft's version of the history of the Internet after what they did to Netscape in the 1990s.

[CrashPad63]

Netscape did that to itself. Talk about not innovating.

[bimmin]

Clearly, I was referring to Microsoft's actions not Netscape's.

[t8]

Thankfully Google and others appreciated the Web as a platform.
Microsoft is too much into Windows to be relevant in the Web space.
To be no 1 on the Web you need to be at least 100% focussed on making the Web better.
Microsoft is not doing this.

[BOTNET]

WHO CARES?

Do you really care what internet browser you use? I really don't. I care about the content of the pages - I have IE at work and CHROME at home. I really don't see almost any difference.


IE is not that much different than other browsers when it comes to security - see yesterday's posts about how long it took to hack browsers.

[BigGuns149]

I agree with you that too much is made of what browser that one uses, but not all browsers are created equal when it comes to performance, ease of use, or security.

When it is comes down to what the UI ought to look like that is largely a matter of personal taste. There are a lot of UI decisions where what makes the most sense depends upon how the user uses the software. What may make sense to user 1 may not to user 2 because they use the software in considerably different ways.

In addition, performance varies considerably particularly with jscript and certain types of CSS. The notion that all

Even conceding the security issues that plague non-IE browsers it is worth noting that known issues with Firefox seem to get patched faster than IE. Even if we ignore the evidence to the contrary and assume all other things are equal as you imply wouldn't it be wise to use a browser whose vendor treats security updates with higher priority than Microsoft, which leaves KNOWN IE issues unpatched for months and sometimes years?

[Renegade Knight]

"WHO CARES?"

Regardless of how much you care about IE 8 it's good to see some competition in the market. All browsers are getting better becasue of it.

[BOTNET]

BigGuns149, we well said.

Renegade Knight I totally agree with you, if Firefox would not be where they are, IE was be still on level of IE6. My point is that lately too many people bark about things which are really not important. Who care was browser you use or what OS you use, 20 years ago I really did not care what OS I had, I just wanted to use text processor.

Instead of focusing on the content and improving the user experience, we focus on 3.5seconds vs 4.1seconds page load time.

Why the heck there is BACK button on web browsers with exactly same function as it was 13 years ago, when quite a lot of apps are AJAX and BACK button cripples everything.

[drhowarddrfine]

To those who state Microsoft is the standard and not the W3C, Microsoft is a member of the W3C and writes the standards they choose not to follow. It isn't an issue with creating new methods and technology. It's an issue of not following the current standards and practices. That is what drives web developers crazy and also is what is making IE lose market share.

[jms64]

I use Firefox and IE7-have no beefs with either. Initially, I like IE8 and it's features. Time will tell if it's as good as Microsoft bills it. I'm just glad there's a few different Browsers to use as each person prefers and likes his or her best. Other than Ad's, no one is forcing you to use only a certain one. I have tried all of the major ones and they all have something cool as well as something to dislike.
Enjoy the one you like best and keep it updated.

[nh99]

I think a big part of M$ finally making a more standards compliant browser is to help move corporate intranets towards compliance. Many of the M$ products like Reporting Services only work on IE (out of the box.) I use Chrome for browsing (speed), Firefox for development (Firebug) and then I use IE only when I need to, which is mostly just Intranet applications and the M$ sites. It seems like M$ does no non M$ cross-browser testing, so at least if they aim for IE8 there's a better chance their apps will run on the other browsers.

[jclllings]

Microsoft has tried to bend or break the rules of fair competition so many times... trust is earned and so is mistrust. Very few of Microsoft's own users can state that Microsoft is trustworthy with a straight face.

All they have to do to get me to use IE, is publish the code. Copyright it till the cows come home. Have a special copyright for each and every line and a special individual lawyer to enforce each line for all I care, but publish it.

[Revelation-23]

My early days on the net came via Netscape, but abandoned it some time after the AOL/Time Warner merger, which seemed to have driven the stake through its heart. I went to Internet Explorer and haven't felt the need to abandon it, although I have used Opera as my second browser for several years, turning to it more frequently after IE 6 came out. IE 7 was a much better experience and it is still what I use the vast majority of the time.

I've tried Firefox and Safari, but saw no compelling reason to rely on those browsers and I haven't bothered with Chrome at all. IE works for what I need it for, while Opera picks up the slack when something doesn't quite work right (and not necessarily because I'm visiting a site with IE). I don't need a bunch of extra features or add-ons that add functionality; I just want a browser that works and well get me from site A to site B and beyond.

[Dalkorian]

It's OK and perfectly natural - most slaves get scared when contemplating leaving their masters plantation because freedom is scary.

I'm sure your master thinks highly of you as he's whipping the living daylights out of you. Don't worry, it's a labor of love - he wouldn't whip you if he didn't care.

Enjoy your slavery.

[qquidd]

I liked IE8 better than IE7 - "felt" lightweight and more nimble. I think it will give the others a very good fight.

FF3 - loaded way too much crap over FF2. Fortunately, they have been working hard on the updates.

Opera - great browser, but unfortunately poor usability and uninspiring interface.

So right now for me IE7 (soon IE8) as the primary and FF as a close secondary.

[bio6]

"It *is* the standard, by definition. All the others are the non-standards." -- LuvThatCO2

Unfortunately it is not the standard. I have not tested IE8, my work involves design and testing of pages using major browsers including IE7. Most web developers use Firefox as the standard to test their sites/pages first, and then they try to accommodate IE7/IE6 users for their browsers' lack of compliance. IE7 is also very slow compared to Firefox.

[edgedesign]

Second that!

Most every professional developer I know focuses on delivering standards-compliant code. They use Firefox or Safari in development, then switch to IE to see what kind of coding hacks they'll have to use to get things working right. This extra programming cost is passed on to the client, so Microsoft's shoddy applications leads to increased development costs.

The end user also gets screwed because programmers often dumb-down their web-based applications so they'll work with IE.