Comments on: Microsoft still pushing 'Apple tax' notion

Ahead of Macworld, top Windows marketer says consumers can't afford to go Mac. But with the economy in tatters, will people be buying any PCs other than Netbooks?

[greasyfitting]

I'd rather pay the 'tax' then fear every click i make whilst opening email or browsing a Web site.

[thelemurking]

what fear? I have several work email accounts and multiple personal email accounts... I surf the web regularly and dare I say even venture into the wilderness and download stuff on occassion. I have yet to get infected with anything. the only thing spybot ever picks up on my computer is tracking cookies and mtu stuff... if the worse things that end up on my computer are tracking cookies and stuff I type in to Start > Run, then it amazes me what a little bit of protection can actually do. Amazing what happens when you have antivirus, a firewall, firefox+adblock and a tad bit of common sense.

Why even PAY the tax when you can go LINUX FOR FREE and not have to worry about anything either. So you are paying a tax for that pretty case and that fancy gui.

[D3vildog699]

Using the Word "Whilst" in a sentence does not make you cool King Arthur.

[topgunb2]

are you an english teacher D3vildog699, atleast thelemurking had something to say on the subject instead of being a smarta** pointing out the word's used in the post!

[selfkill]

Hmm... I never fear any click I make while on a PC. Maybe it's just because I know I shouldn't be opening random executable files. Or maybe it's just because I have some common sense? If you have to pay a premium for that, then I guess you deserve it.

[D3vildog699]

No im not an english teacher, i just hate that word... and i never said i wasn't a smartass... Good to see your annoyed by internet posts though

[tm_anon]

@thelemurking
Completely agree with the Linux statement. I went from running XP with nightly checks by my malware checker, running my antivirus scan once a month and having it up and running constantly to only checking which files I'm going to send to Windows users because I'm a good citizen of the interwebs. I also have a much safer way to acquire software and a much cheaper way to fix any problems with my PC. I'm also free to do whatever the hell I want with my OS because once it's downloaded it's actually mine. Microsoft wants to bring up the Apple tax, I'd like to bring up the MS tax, paying roughly $100 per computer for a license to run an OS that comes with almost nothing I would need it to have. I paid the money for the CD I burned my copy of Ubuntu on. I'll even raise the price of that one CD to $7 since I had to buy the group in order to get that one. When I installed Ubuntu I had OpenOffice.org, Firefox, Rhythmbox and a host of other software making my initial download work for any basic computer users needs straight off the download, no need to purchase any extra software to get done what you need done. With that $100 I just saved, I could double my RAM, purchase better equipment than I otherwise would be able to and be better off doing so. I also have more options to change the look to my preferences and can even copy MS or Mac if I feel like it. That's just one distros advantages over MS straight from the box. Oh, I forgot to mention, you don't even have to buy the CD to burn yourself as they'll send you a LiveCD made to order completely free of charge. Total cost of ownership for Ubuntu-$0, total cost of MS-$100+MS Office+Adobe Photoshop+more+more+more.

[seven7dust]

atleast Apple innovates... Wat does MS do
sit on their ***** and Copy {Actually make a mockery out of copying}
I can't believe after 6 years of copying they still coundn't get there OS right

Ms is seriously the Most Incompetent Organization on the planet

[unknown unknown]

@seven7dust I doubt you'd give them credit if they did. Four that spring to mind Windows Update, Xbox Live, Office 2007's ribbon interface, and Kernel patch guard. Copying has been a source of progress, and Apple isn't immune. They took BSD and built OS X on it. The interface for Apple TV looks very much like Microsoft's Media Center.

[MSSlayer]

Ribbon interface?

You mean a tabbed toolbar? Yeah, real innovative! LOL

[unknown unknown]

@MSSlayer A bit more complex than your standard tabbed toolbar interface. Do you also think Mac's dock is little more than glorified tabbed toolbar? Tabbed browsing was considered innovative despite the fact that tabs as UI element had been around. In Office 2007's case, the innovation is not that they used tabs, but that they used it to improve UI organization and usability.

Let me refresh your memory on the definition of innovation (noun ):
1. something new or different introduced: numerous innovations in the high-school curriculum.
2. the act of innovating; introduction of new things or methods.

Innovate(verb):
1. to introduce something new; make changes in anything established.

from dictionary.com

A different way of interacting with an Office suite is by definition of innovative, how much is a matter of opinion.

[Pete Bardo]

Apple Tax? That shows the MS mentality. It's not a tax, it's a premium. Tax is collected by governments, not corporations. MS uses the term to scare potential Mac buyers. I refuse to be intimidated!

[D3vildog699]

Im sure apple loves that you will pay that extra premium.

[susan_bennett]

With Macs you don't pay a tax or a premium, you pay a rate that reflects good value. I don't care if Win PCs come at a discount, the price chop doesn't make up for an inefficient, non-reliable system. I switched to Mac after having to basically gut a 2 year old Sony Vaio laptop (that btw was a pretty penny). Office 2008 killed it and as the Sony rep said, "oh well there's the problem, Office 2008 is meant for Vista, which doesn't work, so bring it in and we'll downgrade you back to MS products that do."

This is not value, regardless of how cheap MS needs to blow their crap out at.

[basraw]

with a higher premium comes more tax.

but just buy online and out of state to avoid the tax man.

[D3vildog699]

Good to see that you can group every MS computer into the "Crap" category when mine have had few if any issues on them. Seriously i can get just as good a computer by building it myself than buying a Mac. If you learned to take care of your computer than you prolly wouldn't have such issues. But clearly you can't do that. You would rather blame someone else.

[Mark_Anderson]

Susan, the only fault is yours for buying an underpowered laptop then software that clearly didn't run on it.

[pithenumber]

there's the form factor premium involved too
desktop tower is always cheaper than all in ones or tiny desktops that use laptop components
then add in the MacTax, you can save 50% buying a desktop tower instead of an iMac
I can build one for you and guarantee it is reliable for 50% of iMac price or about 60% of usual all in one price

[tm_anon]

Money doesn't mean quality. I'm running Ubuntu. If I weren't impatient it wouldn't have cost me a dime. As it is, I paid for the CD I burned the OS onto and that was it. It's more reliable than XP has ever been on this system, it's updated frequently and is set to be taken care of through 2010. If I'd gone for the LTS it would be taken care of through 2011. I can install this exact OS on as many PCs as I feel fit to do so on and I will never pay any more than I already have. I paid no money for OpenOffice.org and it is compatible with MS Office formats, it's also compatible with lots of other formats so I'm set for trading documents between any Office suite I come across. There's a slight learning curve for setting up things such as Antivirus programs or less necessary programs or less desired programs but other than that it takes nothing for most users to set up and get used to. Let's face it, if you go to OS X after working on XP then you'll have some stuff to get used to, why not just go to an OS that makes your old system seem that much better than you ever thought it was? Windows has lots of problems not the least of which is the desire to make everything new incompatible with the old and then make you pay for the new stuff. Mac does the same thing, but they don't do it so cold heartidly. Ubuntu puts the newest compatible version in the repositories so you don't even have to go looking. No more visits to Best Buy for the newest MS Office that may or may not be compatible with your system at home. No more worrying about why your PC is running slow. Do a Google search for what you've noticed it doing and most likely you will find your answer in the top 5 and be able to fix the problem before the day is through. I've very rarely been able to get that kind of support from either Apple or Windows.

[jumpjetta]

@tm_anon I always get a good laugh at you Linux/Ubuntu dorks when you trot out this "It's great for everybody" crap. I'll give you one month to become a productive prepress operator or professional photographer on your little freebie. I'm sure you'll just whip those copies of OpenOffice and The GIMP (so appropriately named) into shape and start producing paid work for customers.

That's right. Not going to happen, is it. In that month I will have produced thousands upon thousands of dollars in customer work while you're still trying to get something to print in color on 12x18 sheets (let alone properly edit an Illustrator file from a customer with spot color separations or create a press-ready PDF).

But hey, you can change the way the interface looks. Bonus!

[seven7dust]

I don't mind paying n e price for complete peace of mind , Which you get with Macs

There's a reason why Macs have the highest Customer satisfaction rate in the industry {90+%}
They don't use Windows !

and BTW !!!
MS requires you have anti-virus,Firewall and Spyware scanner
wat about the price of that ???

[Renegade Knight]

It's spin. Just like the Mac PC adds.

[lodoss900]

Homer: Let the bears pay the bear tax. I pay the Homer tax.

[bowlie1]

"Microsoft makes huge margins on its products."

Methinks Microsoft doth protest too much ...

[trd1282]

Be careful, D3vildog699 is on language patrol today...

It seems you are correct by the way, but their little comparison leaves out the idea that maybe I am willing to pay the 100 bucks to use OSX and the included software.

[D3vildog699]

Darn straight im language patrol :p

[Penguinisto]

That should be "I'm", then, Oh Language Monitor. ;)

[D3vildog699]

Damn i'll have to fine myself... :(

[protagonistic]

Brooks needs to lay off the Koolaide. Maybe his time is not worth anything, but mine is. And the hours I have not had to spend since, I made the switch to a Mac, keeping a Windows system running smoothly would pay for a new Mac pretty much every year even figuring my time at minimum wage. Add to that the fact that the software I use for video and audio editing would also cost a whole lot more in Windows.

Bad economy or nor, when it comes time to replace my Mac, hopefully this summer, I will not be purchasing a system running Windows. I don't need the aggravation that comes with it.

Sign me: a very satisfied switcher.

[sythara]

Congradulation that you have made the switch. If you run WinXP x64 there is not much aggravation that goes with it.

[D3vildog699]

Unless you have a Machine built for rendering a Mac is the best choice for video editing. But i seriously doubt that you have so many problems with your windows machine that your shelling out the cost of one mac every year to keep it running.

Seriously...

[protagonistic]

@sythara

I ran XP at the time I switched and I bought a reconditioned IBM a bit later with XP Pro on it. XP runs fine as long as you are the type that runs a few selected applications and do not install and uninstall software on a regular basis like I do. The biggest hassle was always having to put a lot of time into keeping the system secure. The final straw came one night when I came in to do a 10 minute task on my system before heading off to bed. After several hours of fixing problems I finally got to bed at 0100 hours. The next evening I ordered my Mac and have not regretted it.

And the system with XP Pro on it now runs BSD and Linux with the XP install being formatted away. To be fair, I know people who are happy with Windows, but they don't do the kind of stuff I do. But then I get the calls when they do have trouble, which is a lot more often than I do, and several of them come over to do their video projects on my Mac. In any event, my time is worth something to me and I have had to spend only a small fraction of the time on my Mac and the BSD machine to keep them running and secure.

You really do get what you pay for. For $400 you get a $400 computer and an operating system that requires you to spend a lot more money if you want to do any serious work with that computer. When I made the switch I did some serious number crunching. By comparing similarly equipped high end systems with the software I needed to do the job the Mac actually came out a bit cheaper. I know I will get flamed for that statement, but it is the simple truth in my case. The so called premium only takes the computer and the OS into account. It does not include a number of other tangible and intangible needs. I have actually saved money over the life of this Mac. But to each their own...

[D3vildog699]

Protagonistic.. You won't get flamed as long as you say that in your case its cheaper. If for what you need the mac and its offerings work.. and what you find is cheaper than what PC has to offer its not a fact for everyone, its just being able to shop around.

Kudos for looking around. But just like you said for what you need the Mac works, for what i need.. the mac really doesn't make sense as i can get it for way cheaper and just as reliable.

[sythara]

I'd rather not pay anything at all and get Ubuntu. But thats just me, for I'm probably the only one in the world who likes free stuff thats legal.

But yeah, Apple Tax? What in the world is M$ thinking? Why not just say "Windows Vista! Because not everyone can afford OS X". Or "Windows Vista, the cheaper alternative to computing". Or "Windows Vista, the OS you can actually play a computer game on".... But Apple Tax, seriously.

[random truth]

I though it was funny when microsoft compared a vista machine with a core 2 quad running at 2.4 ghz (4 cores) to a mac pro with 2 quad core xeons (harpertown) (8 cores) running at 2.8 ghz. Then they said the windows machine is cheaper. Xeons are expensive look at how much they cost each from new egg...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117143
That totals too $1460 for just the processors.
It will be funny if apple counters them by pointing out the cost of antivirus, how windows costs $300 while Leopard costs $129, or how their office suite is $79 and microsofts office is again $300.

[D3vildog699]

I can see the point that they are making here, Apple users do hava disadvantage when it comes to the availability of software. However They do get a very stable, and proven stable OS. So is there a downside to the Apple way? Sure there is a downside to everything.... But MS also has to remember the "Vista Capable" Fiasco that prolly cost them more than they though just to get a few extra computers moved.

There is a downside to every OS and there are upsides. the Operating system one chooses to use should be about choice and personal preference. If you can't see the downside to either MS, OSX, or linux along with the upsides, you have no business saying anything about them.

To the author... typo.. wrote "me" should be "be"

"And while I hear layoffs may indeed me in the works"

[thelemurking]

Blame that "Vista Capable" fiasco on Intel... that's the real monster behind that mess.

As for stable OS... XP and Vista are very stable. You start doing stupid stuff, installing a bunch of crapware junk, hitting porn sites, then you deserve the unstable OS. But the only crash my Vista box has encountered has been due to faulty Nvidia drivers. That's it.

I have an XP box that I use to run a private shoutcast server and that thing runs 24x7 and I reboot it about once every 2 or 3 months to apply updates/patches.

[D3vildog699]

Whoa.. im just saying what i see to be true here.

I have only had one crash on my vista box, IRQL_Not_Less_or_Equal... turns out to be a corrupt page file. No worries. Personally windows is my preferred OS, and i like Vista over my XP machines. But the Mac i have at work is just fine. Even if it does crash more than what my bosses would like to admit.

[douggro]

Ah! You found the magic: CHOICE.

No one is putting a gun to the consumer's head and making them buy a Windows PC or a Mac. People can choose what to buy and use. It just so happens that I prefer Macs, but I use Windows every day as well. There are pros and cons to each OS. If I have to pay a "tax" to use the computer/OS of my choice, then that's really my problem, isn't it? Why should Microsoft care about that? I have my copies of MS Office and XP that they've made money from me on, after all..

It's always amusing to see the fanboys from each camp just get rabid whenever topics like this come up..

Re: the "Vista Capable" fiasco - thelemurking needs to do some research. It was a total communication breakdown between the Vista development team and Intel over the driver support that the GPU would need to run VIsta. MS kept changing the spec and expected Intel to hold to their word that it would work, until Intel told them differently. There was a nice write-up on this here at CNET last month.

[savvydude]

Only a failing corporation would view a competitor in this light. Instead of committing itself to quality, Microsoft goes bureaucratic. Sad, sad, sad.

[D3vildog699]

Microsoft... a failing company?? How much money do they pull in?

[Bonojohn]

How are Apple's Get a Mac commercials are any different?

[compudoc318]

like all the bs ads apple has on tv????

[seven7dust]

I'm a Mac user... yet I find this statement as complete BS
if there n e company that looks down on it's competitors it's Apple

but 1 thing is funny here...
notice how Dell and Hp have nothing to say.... but Ms Has
it's because MS mints money of Dell and HP for each Pc sold
while Dell/Hp have low margins
it's no wonder that Apple makes 20 times more profit on the sale of a Mac

the prices of the Windows are ridiculous
they should provide it free of cost for the crap it is !

[Renegade Knight]

Sad but true. I can get a well equipped ThinkPad and pay less that I would for a Lesser equipped MacBook Pro.

That said the difference isn't as much as it used to be. 200 give or take for the example I have in mind.

[Schneezle]

A MacBook Pro, in Australia, with 4GB RAM, 512MB grphics, dual core 2.6GHz processor, 250GB HDD, costs a ridiculous $3,500+. A Sony laptop, with a slightly slower processor, larger HDD, Windows Vista Ultimate, and more extras, costs $2,200.

On another note, I don't buy the stability thing. In 2006, I went to a forensic camp where they were using Macs.At the time, JPEG images were having compatibility issues with Apples' webpage maker thingy! A few weeks ago, I walked into Dick Smith Electronics. Sitting there was a brand-new, top-of-the-rnage MacBook Pro. The first time I used this $35,000(Aus) machine (which is an insane amount of money (hmm, an Audi A3 or a computer?)), I waved the mouse over the icons down the bottom, and they totally disappeared without a trace. I left, $35,000 better off.

[brian.lee]

I'm a Mac user that owns both Macs and PC's.... I bought a new tablet recently that came with Vista Home x64. After using it for about a month and a half I've concluded that Vista is pretty but slow and hinders my productivity. My tablet has 4 gigs of ram and an Ati video chipset... my mac book is 3 years old and still runs circles around my new tablet. What gives???? I'm not seeing any dramatic gains in Vista at all. Windows XP was just fine yet I can't buy any copies I was even told by the retailer NOT to install xp on the tablet "what ever you do DON"T install xp on the tablet."

[thelemurking]

If you look at most Vista installs, they clock in around 60+ processes at start up. Most are not necessary. I boot up with around 36 processes in Vista 64 and it flies.

http://www.blackviper.com/WinVista/servicecfg.htm

That's a good place to start to find out what to disable. Also uninstall all that preloaded 3rd party junk that isn't necessary. You will have a better experience with Vista after that.

[gggg sssss]

ah - but do you have a Mac TABLET? Thought not.

[jumpjetta]

http://www.axiotron.com/index.php?id=modbook - maybe (gggg ssss) you should do some research.

But you could, and it would knock the doors off any hobbled windoze tablet.

[Seaspray0]

@jumpjetta. That modbook is not made by apple; it's a modified macbook with the modifications done by axiotron. Who provides the warrantee? Apple does not make a tablet, nor is osx an OS designed for a touch screen. BTW, the starting price for it was $2,249 (based on the cheapest mackbook made being modified). You can find tablet PC's (way more than just one model) for alot less with better specs (because they were built as tablets in the first place) with an OS that is designed to take advantage of the touch screen (xp tablet or vista).

[appledogx--2008]

An Apple tax? What really taxes me is watching my friends with Windows computers reformatting to keep their machines fast, killing viruses and fighting spyware and adware several times a year. Hours of down time is needed just to do normal tings. My friends with Macs just work, play and USE their computers with relatively little down time, all in all.

Apple tax? Windows is really just, ... well... taxing.

[Mark_Anderson]

Hours of downtime?

Please elaborate because that's just silly.

[pithenumber]

hours of downtime?
***?!?
No down time
I have no adware, no spyware, no virus
the computer is fast
no reformats since the install of XP pro a couple of years back

[compudoc318]

tell your friends not to open every email attachment and to stay off the porn sites...lol, even with windows, common sense will keep you virus free

[Penguinisto]

"Hours of downtime?"

Time spent since 2004 in maintenance, upkeep, and repairs on my dual G5 Mac: ~30 minutes preparation, and ten minutes' unanticipated downtime total over 5 years of ownership.

Time spent since January 2008 to maintain my missus' XP laptop: 3 hours preparation, and 6 hours (and counting) of downtime over one year (two complete re-installs from image, three bouts of malware removal due to infected websites, twice-monthly runs of CCleaner and JKDefrag to keep the registry from bloating, and one roll-back due to a Windows Update patch that was bad).

Time spent since 2003 on my FreeBSD file server: 3 hours preparation, and 10 minutes' downtime total over six years (aggregate of all kernel-patch-caused reboots, which I did at my leisure).

Nope - not silly... just reflective of typical usage patterns.

[gggg sssss]

you need a smarter class of friends

[unknown unknown]

Your friends must be new to computers. I've been running Vista for about a year and a half and XP for probably 4 years before that, and I can't remember the last bit of malware I was afflicted with. Last time did format was when I first installed Vista. As for maintenance, I've found I can schedule things like updates, defrag sessions, and various scans for hours when I am not using the computer. If your friends are having hours of down time on regular basis, they're doing something very wrong. Most likely the problem exists between the chair and keyboard.

[Melekai]

from thelemurking "Also uninstall all that preloaded 3rd party junk that isn't necessary."
Who really needs that BS?

[Vegaman_Dan]

Penguinisto:

All your downtime numbers demonstrate is that you are more adept / aware of your system than others that use it. I would expect the personal machine of any sysadmin will have similar statistics.

To have a unbiased and realistic comparison, we would need to have end users who are not technogeeks to use both systems in the same role for the same period of time. That, unfortunately, is not likely to be a comparison that would be done, but it would at least be a fair one.

I could comment that of my particular group's test machines, the Lenovo has had no downtime since we powered it up last year except for OS updates. The HP had a HDD failure and required a 30 minute reimage. A Dell had a failed system board and was down for 30 minutes. The MacBookPro was down for nearly six weeks due to a system board failure, hard drive failure, and finally a corrupted OS (thank you iTunes). Now if we do the very same comparison that you did, that would indicate that the Apple product had the highest downtime of them all- which is correct, but that could also just be that the machine he have in the test lab is a lemon. Such variables aren't in your comparison and do need to be included to be fair.

During all that time, my Toshiba laptop that I use personally had no downtime. Does that mean that Toshiba is superior to Apple? Nope, it's just that I keep the system maintenance up to date on the Toshiba as it's my daily machine.

It's a good example that illustrates clearly that your results may vary from those that others have experienced.

[Penguinisto]

@Dan: That's the funny part: On the Mac, my entire prep-work consisted of well... nothing much - just setting up monitor resolution and similar tweaks, turned on automatic system updates, and looked up some basic best practices online.

I will admit that the FreeBSD box required a bit more work (no GUI, I wanted Samba on it, etc). ;)

The real funny part is the Vista (x64 Business) laptop I use at work. The preparation for it was actually longer than I would spend for a Linux machine: combing through the registry making tweaks, disabling all the fluff and crap that slowed the machine down big-time (why the frig does a business machine need Aero, anyway?), adding RAM (it has 4GB now - which makes it about as responsive now as the same machine had with XP and only 2GB of RAM)... basically a ton of work just to trim the little bastard down so that I could use it.

(We had a user in HR try one out - she gave it back in disgust after a week, even after we tweaked it down w/ assistance from MSFT itself).

WRT to: "The MacBookPro was down for nearly six weeks due to a system board failure, hard drive failure, and finally a corrupted OS (thank you iTunes)."

So do tell - how does iTunes blow up a mainboard? ;)

In all seriousness - the Mac has held up this long w/o problems, but I'm not the only one... it's actually typical.

[Seaspray0]

@penguin. "Nope - not silly... just reflective of typical usage patterns." typical of penguin patterns. And it all must be true, right? Just like how every 13 year old can write scripts that hack windows, right? You said it, so it must be true. How come you haven't produced even one 13 year old even though I've asked again and again over the last month? How about the penquin ignores the truth again and again pattern? Go find someplace else to post your fud.

[boychuk]

Microsoft is comparing a Xeon machine (Mac Pro) to a Core 2 (HP)? I call it the smoke and mirrors tax, confusing the consumer thinking that an 8 core Xeon is a tax compared to a 4 core duo?

[contentcreator--2008]

Agree, hp/dell etc have done a poor job understanding the need for 8 core machines by pros, Apple deserves credit for making 8-cores available for a reasonable price. Every time I've looked an 8-core has been $800+ or so more elsewhere. Many people have bought Apple's mac pros and run Windows XP-64 on it because it is the cheapest way to get an 8-core machine with a full 64-bit ecosystem (h/w + 64b s/w).

[pithenumber]

call me, I'll build you a PC that fits your needs perfectly
you can get 8 cores for about $1250 from me (2x Shanghai)

8 threads can be cheaper
1 Ci7, 4 core, 8 thread
build you one with it for 1k

not all pros need 8 cores
if most of the computing happens on the GPU, you don't need a 4 core Xeon. I'd recommend the Athlon X2 7750.

[Penguinisto]

@pithenumber:

So - where do you steal your parts then?

(hint: http://pricewatch.com shows wholesale numbers for parts and systems... good luck beating their numbers).

[D3vildog699]

Penguin- Obviously he steals them.. if you can't find a link for it proving it must be stolen right? Maybe he just gets good deals? or knows places around him that sells em cheaper.

[Vegaman_Dan]

Good point. My local hole in the wall shop doesn't have a web store- they instead just pass the savings on to the customers directly with in store sales.

[random truth]

@DevilDog and Penguin
You realize that they are completely different chips. He offered to build you one with an AMD shangai proccessors while the macpro uses Intel Xeon (harpertown). I personally refuse to use amd processors any more because a couple of years ago, I had one that almost caught on fire. (the bottom plastic of the laptop melted onto the desk). I am sure it was a fluke but I have lost trust in their product.

[Penguinisto]

Funny thing is, most local geeks shops use Pricewatch (and similar), and there's no way he can match or beat it without going grey market at best, or theft at worst. If any of y'all can prove otherwise, please do.

[DrtyDogg]

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-overclock,2112.html

You could build this exact PC for 1k if you went with a mid level graphics instead of top of the line. Which uses an i7 proc. 4 cores plus HT.

[pithenumber]

@penguin
I Newegg snipe for parts, might take a month or two longer, but just wait for prices to drop

the Tom's hardware i7 rig is under 1k if you drop the high end graphics card
bring me your optical and hard drive and I'll install them for you in your new rig

[pithenumber]

@random
AMD and Intel chips have overheated, melted, and destroy themselves in front of me
It happens, sorry that your AMD chip overheated
Shanghais are pretty nice processor chips, not as fast as Xeons, but more power efficient and cheaper

[contentcreator--2008]

How about a legible version of the chart? Enlarging by 20 pixels or so is a joke.

As a developer, there's certainly a pretty big Apple tax to support the Apple market. It's very time consuming, you serve at Apple's convenience, and Apple users expect to pay only the same as Windows.

To those wondering why their old machines and old software are not so much slower than new software and new machines, keep in mind that both Apple and Microsoft have chosen to expend much of your performance on gratuitous aesthetics, especially transparency, as well as other behind the scenes things that make software more reliable or faster to write. The general assumption is that while computers are getting faster, users aren't.

[tweldy]

I would like to note that this is particularly piquant - as computers become ubiquitous, more people without aptitude or interest in computers use them; thus, they expect computers to do a lot of the work for them - the same way that cars do most of the driving for people (power steering, power brakes, anti-lock brakes, traction control, automatic transmissions, etc.). This is actually a good thing. In general, people are good at being creative, and lousy at computational efforts: computers make people vastly more productive when using them requires almost no learning curve. Plus, it keeps us software developers employed :D

[contentcreator--2008]

Hmmm, the chart has been replaced with a legible version, thanks --- but now it is a different chart without Mac Pros!

[renec2006]

I don't own a Mac, but I would rather pay the extra amount for it than use Vista!
I use Linux Mint currently for everything, but I do have to use XP to VPN into my job.
I use Linux because it's stable and I can do everything that M$ does, but faster and secure.
Mac's are expensive, but it's a great OS. One day when i have enough money I will get me a Mac.
Sorry M$

[lwongveros]

The so called "Apple tax" cannot be boiled down to hardware pricing charts, it certainly avoids the total experience and long-term costs. And since when has it been evil for a company to charge more for another "comparable" product? If that was evil, we would all be driving around in the cheapest Fiats and drinking tap water.

Some reactions about the other comments:

Linux/Ubuntu etc.: certainly a viable option if you are technically inclined, remember that the majority of consumers want a platform that is well supported. You can argue what you like, but the last time I was at a computer shop, you don't normally see Linux software on the shelf, or bundled drivers for peripherals. Linux is great, but not for the mainstream majority...

Vista and tuning it to run better: definitely great tips for us techie types, but once again, think of the end-user experience, should a typical consumer need to learn how to reduce startup processes to make the OS work smoother? I think not...

I switched around 2.5 yrs ago and still have my Windows PC sitting beside me, albeit turned off since about 9 months ago. I won't get into all the reasons, but I'm happy using my Macbook for all my work and personal needs, I like the fact that it's just easier and more intuitive...

[pithenumber]

Ubuntu is for people new to Linux

If you love Linux enough, you'd get yourself Debian and modify it to your liking

[D3vildog699]

Computer's aren't toys. If you want one you should learn how to use it, how to fix it, or at the bare minimum to preventive maintenance on it... just like a car.

[tm_anon]

"Linux/Ubuntu etc.: certainly a viable option if you are technically inclined, remember that the majority of consumers want a platform that is well supported. You can argue what you like, but the last time I was at a computer shop, you don't normally see Linux software on the shelf, or bundled drivers for peripherals. Linux is great, but not for the mainstream majority..."

I wasn't exactly technically inclined when I installed Ubuntu onto my machine. I ran the disk while XP was up and the wubi installer came up. I went through the wizard and restarted my computer when it said to. I didn't even bother with the partitioning since it did it automatically. When I restarted, I had the option to use Ubuntu or XP and all I had to do is press up or down to scroll through the options. It came up, it ran and I explored the software.
As for why you don't find Linux software on the shelf, what kind of software are you trying to buy? All the stuff I've found I would ever need is free and listed in the repositories available through Synaptic on Ubuntu. There's a huge amount of stuff there. In fact, there's more software for Linux than there is for Windows and pretty much all of it is free. The bundled drivers you need for Windows aren't really necessary for Linux. In Ubuntu, everything worked right away when I installed it. Any proprietary drivers necessary were installed automatically on first update.
The mainstream majority has been using Windows for so long they think that's how the world has to be. With a push and someone to force them to take just a little bit of time to play around with the system, the mainstream majority would be more than happy in a Linux world. They'd be happy, but they'd also be free.

[sythara]

Ubuntu is for people completely new to computers/linux. It amazes me how easy to use it trully is. And it is supported pretty good as well. Forget all your preconseptions about linux when getting Ubuntu.

[jumpjetta]

@tm_anon I always get a good laugh at you Linux/Ubuntu dorks when you trot out this "It's great for everybody" crap. I'll give you one month to become a productive prepress operator or professional photographer on your little freebie. I'm sure you'll just whip those copies of OpenOffice and The GIMP (so appropriately named) into shape and start producing paid work for customers.

That's right. Not going to happen, is it. In that month I will have produced thousands upon thousands of dollars in customer work on my Mac while you're still trying to get something to print in color on 12x18 sheets (let alone properly edit an Illustrator file from a customer with spot color separations or create a press-ready PDF).

But hey, you can change the way the interface looks. Bonus!

[Seaspray0]

Jumpjetta, ubuntu is a good OS. You can blame its problems on developers wanting to get paid to write decent applications or games for it.

[bburn--2008]

Nice things always cost more ;-)

[gggg sssss]

a pig with lipstick is still a pig

[Melekai]

Who wants a pig?

[renec2006]

The reason Linux/Ubuntu,etc... is not on shelf's, because they don't advertise.
by word of mouth lots of people have heard of Linux now without using Jerry Seinfeld or a screaming Steve B. Imagine if someone did advertise it.......Woooow!
It's very easy to use now. My 6 year old son uses it, my wife knows nothing about a computer uses Linux.
MS shouldn't be so, so, so trying to put any other OS out of commission. We should all have a choice of OS. Like the wide choice of beer!!

[pithenumber]

Novell advertises SUSE, not much though

[tweldy]

I use Vista x64. It is a mediocre product and I knew that going into it. My computer, with all components plus software costs was $1600. It would have cost around $2400 or so for a Mac similarly equipped. I saved $800 for an inferior operating system, the fun of putting together my own computer with my son, and the convenience of occasionally working at home without having to switch OSes (which is a dubious distinction - a second OS in a isolated mode would not have been a bad thing). Its a choice, people, and its based on personal needs. M$ attempting to convince people that there is a Mac tax is as absurd as GM trying to convince people that there is a Toyota tax. They aren't the same thing. Maybe M$ should try predatory hiring from Apple's marketing team.

[jabberwolf]

Yeah MS is trying to do shady things by presenting facts, hardware equivalents, and facts.
Shame on MS !!

And while you use M$, ironically, you are defending Apples high price and yearly (or 1.5 yearly) $100-150 price for what are basically updates to OSX !

Yet, professionally, Vista 64 can run many programs that the new OSX simply cannot.

So paying for "VALUE" ... WHAT FRICKEN VALUE IF IT DOES LESS?!!?!?!?

You guys claim, it doesnt have viruses, yet are much less than 10% of the market share. You guys are simply paying for obscurity, with something that does great by itself. So do trolls!

[Penguinisto]

"Yet, professionally, Vista 64 can run many programs that the new OSX simply cannot."

Such as ...?

Please, list some.

[ralfthedog]

@ Penguinisto ,

solitaire for one, also Trojan-Downloader.JS.Small.fi, Trojan-PSW.Win32.OnLineGames.sxa, Backdoor.Win32.Small.x...

[Seaspray0]

@ralfthedog. I don't think that was the list he was expecting. LOL. and Touche! All good reasons to run antivirus software.

[cryhavoc2112]

Apple tax is hardly a new comment, it's been around for years. Maybe M$ has coined it recently, but that's hardly news. Obviously, they don't mean tax in the literal sense, and for my buck, Windows TCO is much lower, especially in an enterprise environment. I use both OS's, and find Windows to be just as stable as OS X. Every operating system sucks. I agree the Apple hardware is good, but I can put together a system that matches Apple's in quality for hundreds less, and increase productivity due to the wealth of applications designed for the Windows OS. To each their own, and I choose M$.

[The_Decider]

MS is just showing how clueless.

The hardware comparisons are apples and oranges to put it nicely, and they ignore the stability and security that all windows versions lack. Not too mention, the quality software that ships with a Mac, compared to the trialware that ships with HP, Dell, etc.

MS is simply a clueless and incompetent organization.

[contentcreator--2008]

iMovie, iDVD --- basically under-featured trialware. They do things magically for you in the name of "easy to use". But when they mess up (and they do) or you want to do something a tad different, there's nothing to do about it and you'll be heading for some real apps PDQ.

The windows stability argument is complete BS. Mac or PC, if either crashes it is because something has caused it---99% a device driver (1% a debugging tool) --- or a soft-error in RAM.

Still waiting for HP or Dell to offer a competitive 8-core though.

[D3vildog699]

you invalidate your own opinion when you cant see the ups and downs of both OS's, all you sound like now is a biased fanboy. Not everyone likes makes. Its OKAY.

[seven7dust]

n e one who calls Idvd/Imovie as under-featured trialware
doesn't know wat they r talking about for sure
or they r just the typical Apple haters/Ms fanboys

[D3vildog699]

Much like you are an Apple Fanboy.

[gggg sssss]

seven7dust - how is imovie better than windows movie maker? At least WMM makes wmv files

[seven7dust]

if your actually comparing the 2 it clearly shows that you haven't used IMovie !

lets just say that saying IMovie > Windows Movie maker is a understatement.

but Windows does have a few decent free Video editors which r comparable to Imovie

[Melekai]

@ gggg sssss Why do wmv files only play on you're windows box?

[topgunb2]

@ Melekai, I play wmv on ubuntu all the time!

[nicmart]

The use of the word "tax" is noxious. A tax is money taken involuntarily by government.

I don't mind paying a slight premium for the Mac OS. The problem is that Apple refuses to make competitive products for the sub-$1000 segment of the market -- which is to say for most buyers. It recognizes and offers other products, including iPods, to budget shoppers, but it won't offer computers to those shoppers. Or at least not ones that are remotely competitive. It's a big mistake and it prevents Apple from expanding market share greatly.

[jabberwolf]

What "slight" premium?
They also charge you more ( over 4-5 years) for having an up-to-date OS.

And a premium suggests, you get a better product.

Not once, has there been a valid argument that suggests Apple is any better at doing any process for the same price!!!
1-Argument - virus debunked because of obvious isolation ( take a statistics class for those who cant think it through)
2-Argument - better security debunked as OSX is the first to be hacked in competions where there is reward money for doing so.
3- Crashes? Kernel panic attacks have always plagues OSX when used heavily.

So what, what's left? I havent seen 1 dam thing !!

[seven7dust]

Lol!
aleast they do major updates to the Os every few years {and add features}
unlike you know who !
The meaning of Ms should be changed to Zero innovation

[MSSlayer]

jabber,

You are way off. Look into the details of the OSX hack contest. How many in the wild exploits over 8 or 9 years? 3 or 4? But none did widespread damage.

OSX doesn't get viruses because of a superior architecture, not market share. Take a computer science class for people like you who can't think it through.