Comments on: Zune exec on phone future, new iPods

In an interview, Microsoft VP Joe Belfiore talks about where Microsoft is headed with the Zune and what he makes of Apple's new crop of iPods.

[dascha1]

Joe, if MS can put aside the internal politics, you really should be working with your Surface guys. That way you can get in on the new Educational market to connect with larger younger audiences, and Virtual Tackboards in the School Systems under new construction and existing infrastructures.

[lbastie-2237310305301486239950]

Nice interview. Indeed, I believe more and more people get tired with the Ipod. Ok it is nice, but there is no more reativity. The cool stuff and features come from Zune, at least for a music geek.

[Logecy]

Wow, that's funny because I really dig music but I can barely bring myself to say 'Zune' never mind actually buying one.

Currently And I even see one in the wild on occasion (not quite as rare as a Nessie sighting, but close) and they interest me in the way I would be if I saw a live dodo.

[joetesta70]

It's clear that a subscription service beats a pay-per-song service any day, and the Zune software and features beats iTunes 8 + iPod hands down.

In the long run the stand-alone player will go the way of the Palm Pilot though so Microsoft needs to 1) build a Zune phone and 2) make it as cool as the iPhone (the Zune really falls flat on design) and have business features the iPhone is missing (slider keyboard, Word and Powerpoint support).

Until then it'll be a tough road...

[Kev_Orng]

"It's clear that a subscription service beats a pay-per-song service any day, and the Zune software and features beats iTunes 8 + iPod hands down."

Is that why iTunes' pay-per-song service is now the biggest music retailer in the US, and Amazon's pay-per-song service is rising fast?
If subscription services were so much better than pay-per-song service, then consumers would choose them more than they choose iTunes or Amazon's music services. Subscription services appeal to a certain niche, which is why they are a niche product, rather than the number 1 source for music.

If I had teenagers, I would totally get them a music subscription, and save a lot of money on teeny-bopper music they will sneer at in two years. But for myself, I'm not interested.

[Logecy]

Why is it so clear that a subscription service beats a pay-per-song service? A lot of us aren't into 'borrowing" music, so subscription-based services are not only silly, but lock you into a particular service as long as you want to listen to your music.

Which really makes no sense when you think about it.

And why would the iPod want a slider keyboard? In the name of full disclosure, I own an iPod touch because I can't stand cell phones from anyone. Every hear of award winning design? For the iPhone to have a slider keyboard would mean that Apple wants it to be as conventional and, frankly as dull, as most other phones out there.

Word and PowerPoint support is only a few software updates away for both the touch and iPhone (you don't have to be Steve Jobs to see that such compatibility is on the horizon) while Zunephone is only a glimmer in someone's eye.

[DrtyDogg]

Wow people it isn't a religion. If you like subscription, Subscribe. If you like to buy, Buy. The only part of most subscription services that is better is the fact that they offer you an OPTION to do either.

[eadeguzman]

Yeah, arguably. Many would say it's the Game business. Who would think 10 years ago that Xbox could be neck-and-neck with Playstation in grabbing the market share?

Let's give it a couple more years... and see where Zune will stack up against the mighty iPod.

[lantzn]

Yes and I'm sure Apple is going to sit on its laurels so MS can catch up in a few years. Who knows what Apple is hiding deep in its secretive R&D labs?

[mooreoftom]

I just bought an iphone and love it. I will say that I was considering buying a zune because a friend of mine had one and it was a solid player, but I ended up going all out in getting a phone and mp3 player in one device. So if microsoft had a zune phone combo I would have had something else to compare to, but as of right now no phone or mp3 player compares to the iphone. I hope that changes though for the market and for competition's sake.

[hutwarmer]

I am glad to see that MS has toned down the rhetoric a bit. They realize they have an inferior product at the moment and they are treading cautiously. The Zune is actually a pretty nice device, but compared to the Ipod Touch, it still has a way to go (in my opinion)

[lantzn]

The current Zune looks like the iPod mini I just replaced with an iPhone 3G. I'm sure it does more than the mini but the outward appearance looks dated.

[rentman99]

zzzzzzzzzzzzz.....My Zune is basically the same Zune it was last year when I bought it. Nothing exciting about it then, and now it's just old hardware and old features. I can't do ANYTHING interesting except temporarily share a song with a friend, oh wait, I don't have any friends with a Zune. There WAS that stranger that tried to send me a file on the airplane. [CNET editors' note: offensive material deleted.] I had to decline the only unique feature that Zune has, bummer.

I want song fade in/fade out crossfading so I don't have 3 seconds of silence in my music. I like to see which songs fade into each other smoothly. I enjoy putting together songlist with files that crossfade perfectly. Crossfade, how hard can THAT be?

I also want to view my songs by artist/songs. 99% of the time I don't care or even know what album the song came from. Thanks to Zune, I had to delete ALL the album info from the entire library so I could display the songs W/O album info....thanks MSFT! Now, I can't listen to the FEW albums in the history of music worth listening to start to finish w/o reconstructiong them one at a time.

[lantzn]

Cross-fading is actually a touchy subject. There are many songs that are meant to played one after another in an album and cross-fading has ruined the experience in those cases.

[joe1172]

You removed the album info so you could see the songs with the albums? huh?
Why not just chode Song List on the zune?
Your 1 year old iPod would be the same product too, with no scope of any future firmware upgrades. Unlike the Zune.

[DarkHawke]

If M$ really wants to leapfrog Apple in the DAP market, they need to release Zunes with stereo Bluetooth support posthaste. I'm very hot for an entirely wireless, portable multi-media experience and the first company that can give it to me (with Ogg support!) will have my hard-earned and my allegiance!

[Penguinisto]

Re: Ogg Vorbis support: You can (if you feel brave) replace the firmware on your iPod with Rockbox (rockbox.org, IIRC).

[Shoogle2]

You nailed it there: wireless audio and .ogg. I'm looking into a new player myself and am not having a lot of luck finding these features. And if they do one, chances are they don't do the other! But you *can* go halfway and get a bluetooth transmitter which plugs into your headphone jack...but it's an extra gadget to carry around and charge. Sigh.

[rvassar]

Belfiore looks to be a Microsoft 'apologist'. They spent billions catching up with Sony only to now start losing market share. They tarnished their reputation with consumers with Vista and more so, the XBox 360 red ring of death (because of their attempt to be first out - without proper quality controls) and now have 3% of the MP3 market vs Apple's 73%. They have a point system to purchase items which at best is confusing (and at worse, just devious). Are they willing to spend another 3 or 4 billion trying to catch up to Apple? They could get away with producing crappy software (until 'version 3') but won't fare similarly on the hardware side.

I would bet that Apple captures a large percent of the Windows market, rather than MS taking over the MP3 market,

[goodspeed8701]

if apple sells 4 macs in the US and windows sells 20 pcs in the US what about the rest of the world. in africa apple will sell 1 mac and windows will sell thousands of pcs and tell me how are they catching up.

[Penguinisto]

He's got a hard row to hoe... unless the Zune can really do something, its one stand-out feature is useless (the sharing thing). The iPod Touch destroys the Zune outright (I'll be looking to buy the missus a Touch for her birthday).

The problem is, the Zune keeps competing against the lower-end of the iPod line. I think that's misplaced. If MSFT really wanted to make a splash, they could pump out something with the interface and features of the Touch, but sell them at a lower price. That would be attention-getting, and have potential towards disrupting Apple. Alas, I don't see MSFT doing that - they never really went for the gusto.

Also, if the Zune really wanted to make some headway, make the thing cross-platform. Build clients for it in OSX and Linux - don't be tied to the corporate gospel of 'Windows Only'. Apple went from rookie to champion in this market by making iTunes cross-platform. MSFT is going to have to learn to do the same.

[ckurowic]

Unless the Zune can polish my boots, take the dog for a walk, and wash my car all at the same time I'm not going to buy one....wait a second....

[Penguinisto]

Nobody is asking the Zune to do everything... just match what Apple already does at the top-end (and w/ iTunes, some basic cross-platform usage), but do it better.

If that's too much to ask of them, then they'll just have to be satisfied with being the hind dog in the pack...

[DrtyDogg]

I disagree, I have no desire for an iPod touch, or anything like it. I already have a smartphone that does all of that and more. I am in the market for a mp3 player though, and I like what I've seen so far with the Zune announcement. Going to wait for a couple hands on reviews though. Plus I want to try the new software, the last revision was crap.

[Penguinisto]

@DD:

You miss one factor: there's already a healthy market for the low-end of the mp3-playing market. MSFT is competing against the low end for razor-thin margins (where there's a LOT of competition), instead of competing against the high-end for fat margins (which is what Apple did when it first arrived, and continues to do pretty much by itself with its upper-end models).

/P

[mpitogo]

My wife and I love our iPods and iPhones G. And so does our car's built-in integration and our iPod devices. I've been an iPod member since Oct 2001.

[frankwick]

I gave up my ipod for the Zune. It's one of things that not many people do, but when you do it, you realized you should have done it sooner. Itunes is such a buggy piece of junk. Getting rid of that relic was worth the switch alone.

Your car can probably integrate with any bluetooth device -- not just your ipod. My car allows me to talk and play music through my AT&T Tilt. NBD.

[Kev_Orng]

@franwick
"I gave up my ipod for the Zune. It's one of things that not many people do, but when you do it, you realized you should have done it sooner. Itunes is such a buggy piece of junk. Getting rid of that relic was worth the switch alone."

Which brings up another point. Some people don't like iTunes, and I can respect that. I have no problem with it personally, certainly not enough to base hardware buying decisions on. The Zune, on the other hand, is dependent on even worse software - Windows.

Let me tell you, getting rid of THAT relic is far more satisfying than finding yourself some music management software you like better than iTunes.

[vmlenigma]

Although I dont have an Ipod, I still like the design better than anything microsoft has put out in its past...from OS to hardware..there seems to be a lack of quality control, just look at Vista...Xbox's Ring of Death, BOB and countless others...you know you have a crappy product when you start charging your customers for anti-virus programs that You as a Company have created.....from what I can see, Microsoft is having their employees post positive comments for this article, that must suck to have to lie about a product you know Sucks

[johnqh]

The problem is, Microsoft is a copycat company. Nothing wrong with that - they did excellently with Windows and Office. However, when it comes to games, MP3 player, and cell phone, it seems they are already one generate behind.

They almost caught up PS3 with XBox360...unfortunately, both of them are one generation behind Wii. I am not talking about hardware and speed, I am talking about technologies.

They almost caught up iPod with Zune, unfortunately, Apple has moved away from the traditional iPod toward iPod Touch.

Now, they are scrambling with the cell phone - introducing SkyMarket (clone of App Store) with WM7.

Microsoft needs to go back to the drawing board. Instead of trying to play catch-up. Think leapfrog instead, and think long term. It took Apple almost 10 years to get everything they want in OS X, and yes, it leapfrogged Windows and I don't think if MS can catch up. MS need to think beyond what competitors are offering right now.

[Seaspray0]

Thinking ahead? There is evidence they can do that: Apple and linux are not even close to copying the features of the tablet PC (available for several years now). It's evolving into microsoft touch (prototypes now in use) and that goes well beyond what anyone else has on their drawing board. In some ways microsoft is already offering beyond what competitors are thinking of right now. Their biggest problem is bloating the software so that it requires massive upgrades in hardware.

[Penguinisto]

Err, the tablet PC is a niche market that nobody (generally) bothered with. The tablets as products have flopped hard sicne they first came out in 2000-2001. Even HP's new touch-screen creature is a laggard, sales-wise. (why does sales suck on these things, you ask? it's simple - who wants a bunch of fingerprint smudges on the PC screen they have to see through? Pocket-sized devices okay - necessary evil. But PC's? Come on...)

Pointing at a statistical outlier (seriously - tablets?) and claiming it to be an example of the norm is not helping your case any.

[tundraboy]

@Seaspray0: "Their (Microsoft's) biggest problem is bloating the software so that it requires massive upgrades in hardware."

Well I'm shocked! Shocked to find out that Microsoft has a software bloat problem!

[frankwick]

Zune + Media Center + Touch Screen tech (now in Windows mobile, enhanced in Windows 7) = TONS OF POSSIBILITIES. Can you imagine a multitouch zune that knows when you roate (like iphone)?

MS needs to be more aggressive with adding features to the Zune through software updates. They've had games available for months, but we are finally getting it rolled into Zune 3 next week. Why did this take so long? Give us more free games.

[ckurowic]

Nope, by golly I sure cant' imagine that there crazzzzy microsoft technology! They's is soooo advancededededed.

[Kev_Orng]

"Can you imagine a multitouch zune that knows when you roate (like iphone)?"

I can totally imagine it, I have an iPod Touch. I can picture it quite vividly in fact, as if it were right here in my hand.
You're right, it's awesome.

Now I'm visualizing myself playing one of the free games I have loaded on here... or maybe choosing one of the hundreds of other free or paid games that I imagine would be available for such a device, if I had one, which I do.

[Kev_Orng]

All in all, I see nothing wrong with the Zune, I simply see no really compelling reason to switch. Just like I see no compelling reason to upgrade from XP to Vista. Plus I'd have to convert a bunch of MP4s to lower-quality MP3s.
I am willing to consider the zune next time around, but I'm not going to abandon the iPod ecosystem unless i see some really exciting and different features. "Squirting" is unique (if poorly named) but is dependent on a large existing installed base of Zunes. Until then, it's just an interesting curiosity. I also didn't care much for the user interface when I test drove one this summer (they only just released them in Canada).

You can match specs and features all day, but I like the iPod ecosystem, so Microsoft is going to have to really catch my attention in two or three years when I'm in the market for a new music player.

[tundraboy]

How do you start from an insignificant market share to catch up and overhaul the market behemoth? Toyota showed everyone how. You sell the more innovative, higher quality product and keep doing it across two generations of customers. What Toyota did to GM, Apple is doing to Microsoft in computers, but Microsoft is certainly NOT doing it to Apple in handheld (music players/smart phones) devices.

Aside from the Zune not offering anything significantly different or better than iPod (in fact they're still lagging behind), Microsoft doesn't get the generational aspect at all. In the 70's, Toyota didn't bother with the 30 and above age group. Those people will be buying Caddies, Buicks and Chevies til the day they die. Instead they sold to the twentysomethings knowing that once hooked they'll be buying Toyotas forever. And their kids too, if Toyota unlike GM maintained kept their quality high. Apple is doing the same thing with the Mac. It's a better product than the PC and they're appealing to the youngest generation. Teenagers and college goers today all want Macs. Pretty soon, that generation will be swarming all over the workplace. Guess which way the corporate market will go then?

Zune on the other hand is getting no traction at all from today's teens and young adults. That generation is already wedded to iPod. And as long as iPod maintains its pace of innovation and quality, Zune will get no opening at all to swoop in and capture the next generation.

Game over for Zune. Microsoft's stockholders would be better off if Microsoft stopped pouring money into that bottomless pit.

[DrtyDogg]

As a stockholder I see no problem with the Zune it's been in the black since it's inception.

[ckurowic]

Yes....Ford is doing very well...*cough* um...stock in toilet is doing good??? What a loser.

[micsteph78]

Ford reports that SYNC-equipped cars are finding twice as many buyers as cars without SYNC
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/03/surprise-fords-sync-sells-cars/

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS213316+03-Jan-2008+PRN20080103

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/news/2008/163_news030801_ford_sync_sales/index.html

If Ford didn't have exclusive rights to sell Sync they would be in even worse shape. Sync is selling 2:1 over cars without Sync. So yeah, in regards to Sync, Ford is doing well.

[ckurowic]

BY the way, crap video. It looks like it was shot on a cell phone in someone's house. [CNET editors' note: Offensive material deleted.]

[Earl Benzar]

You know, just once I would like to see someone in the press do a detailed article on the dangers of a company that tries to be all things to all people. The core difference between Apple and Microsoft is that Apple is focused on the entertainment sector. Microsoft, OTOH, seems to have it in their collective mindset that they need to own every market in tech, from the enterprise to the consumer. As a result, there is a lack of focus. They are becoming the proverbial "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none."

If Microsoft is primarily an enterprise solutions company, then drop the idea of being "cool and hip." OTOH, if it wants to be a consumer play, then focus on that.

[Kev_Orng]

No, Microsoft wants to be SkyNet, and it's only a couple more years before they'll be sending Terminator robots back in time to just before the 1984 Macintosh launch...

[David Dudley]

Why not try and do both since both generate revenue?

[Penguinisto]

Agreed w/ Earl. Trying to be all things to all people tends to muddy up the brand, makes the company pull is disparate and often counter-productive directions, and ends up being the acme of... mediocrity.

[samkass]

Hear hear, Earl! The question "Why did Microsoft get in the Zune business?" Wasn't really answered, and the reporter gave the Microsoft guy a pass. What does Microsoft bring to the table? Their entire business model is based around other people innovating and Microsoft coming in an undercutting them with second-rate bulk-priced technology. Why do they think that strategy will work in the handheld market?

[David Dudley]

Microsoft got into the portable music market as it is established and has proven to generate significant revenue. Microsoft cannot walk into markets that are not proven as it is not worth their time and will not impact their revenues. Entering a mature market will in fact, create real revenue. And luckily for Microsoft, they have a ton of cash from the OS and Office divisions to fund these kinds of loss leaders. A great book to read on concepts like this would be the Innovator's Dilemma.