Comments on: Dell Studio XPS 13 laptop shipping with Ubuntu

Dell is now offering the Studio XPS 13 laptop with Ubuntu Linux. If only it explained the benefits of running Linux instead of Windows.

[monkeyfun14]

"No company that cares about its customers recommends Windows Vista Home Premium."


Actually it's not bad any tech site that care's about its readers wouldn't feed them ********.

[doublethought84]

Actually, it is that bad. A friend of mine's little brother got a Dell with Vista HP pre-installed for graduation. I would consider him the average user - just wants to use the internet (doesn't know the difference between IE, Firefox, or even what they are - that big blue "e" is just the Internet to him, as that's what he's always used at school and what's been pre-installed on his computers). He probably clicks yes to popups, probably gets confused when presented with a dialog box with 4 lines of 12 pt text full of computer jargon.

After two months, his laptop was unusable. The hard drive never stopped working (on god knows what) after the Windows desktop appeared. I was able to get off all the malware and crapware and things slowing the computer down after about 2 days of pain. I could not BELIEVE all the crap that vista does - making the screen go black, putting a fade over the computer and presenting me with a dialogue box every time I tried to do anything asking me if I really wanted to do it! What was that all about?? WHYY was it so processor intensive??

Then once everything seemed to be normal, I was just shocked at how long it took to boot up or launch anything. There was probably some hidden "stuff" still running, but I downloaded the top anti-malware, virus protection, registry cleaners, etc. and everything seemed to be clean. I also uninstalled all that crap (except AGV), as I know they sometimes come with malware themselves.

I can just say, I've never been more sure that Windows really is complete junk. Thank god I have mac os x.

[Xenite227]

Just because your friends little brother cant stay off the porn sites, that dosnt make it Microsoft's fault.

I haven't had a virus on my computer since the launch of windows 95. Most people who claim windows isn't secure are just ignorant to basic computer security.

The MAC argument also is a joke, Yes MACS are affected by less viruses thats because nobody is wasting their time writing viruses or malware to affect a TINY percent of the computer population. Macs are no more secure then windows based PC's. Remember that little hacking contest where someone got kernel access to a MAC server in under 10 minutes?

[protagonistic]

Xenite227 Actually, macs are inherently more secure than Windows out of the box. You would know this if you knew anything at all about the differences in design between UNIX and Windows. That is not to say that OS X cannot be infected with malware, just that it is harder to do so at this time. As for OS X being hacked first in that contest, that was much more about bragging rights than anything else. There is little glory in claiming to have hacked Windows. Any competent hacker can make that claim, but very few can claim to have hacked OS X or Linux for that matter.

And yes, I used to run Windows. I used it for at over 10 years. And yes, I never had a virus that I did not put on it myself, I used to beta test AV programs for Symantec, but it took a lot of work to make sure it stayed that way. I also run AV protection on my Mac and Linux boxes. That is more because of my Windows using friends than anything else, but I also use other than the default firewall.

[mrbroncosfan]

Doublethought84, you do realize you can turn UAC off, right? Do some research before you spout off. I've had Vista HP for a year now and haven't had a problem with it once I went in and turned off UAC. And yes, it sounds like your little brother does surf a lot of porn.

[tm_anon]

As a prior Windows user whose ex-roommate still uses Windows, it's not always or even usually from surfing porn that viruses and malware get onto the system.

I ran my computer running Windows XP with full virus protection (Avira AntiVir), Malwarebytes Antimalware and I used Advanced WindowsCare close to daily.

I still had viruses. I ran a monthly virus scan and, though I was running a nightly scan with Malwarebytes Antimalware, I still had viruses. I was checking CNet, NYTimes website, Digg. I got viruses but I could take care of them.

My roommate, before moving out, had gotten some virus or piece of malware which kept him from even updating his antivirus. He was running AVG on his PC with Windows installed.

Oh, forgot to tell you. His computer was in the living room, facing out, and his mom came over daily. That means no porn.

I kept my computer running as smoothly as any installation of Windows has ever been, didn't even need to reformat and reinstall the OS after more than a year and a half run time. That, from what I've heard, is fairly uncommon.

I switched to Linux and now I have close to zero maintenance, running a firewall and an antivirus (kept for my Windows using friends). It's been 4 months and I haven't had to defrag, haven't gotten a single virus or piece of malware (yes, I do scan), haven't had any problems requiring me to go into the terminal, haven't found anything I want to do that I can't.

Basically, Linux has proven all the good stuff I've ever heard about it and it's disproven all the negativity that gets thrown around about it, at least it has to me.

[tipoo_]

Nice to see, this is actualy one of the laptops i'm considering buying this summer. It sucks that they dont allow both OS's though, you would have to set up dual boot at home.


"No company that cares about its customers recommends Windows Vista Home Premium."

And why do you say that? If i got vista it would be Home Premium.

[tipoo_]

P.s there is no Ubuntu 9.4, its 9.04

[Seaspray0]

The studio 13 is an ideal platform to introduce ubuntu. I commend Dell on their efforts in providing consumers with a choice of OS. Maybe one day they will provide both in a dual boot platform. Either way, enjoy whichever one you get, whether it be windows or ubuntu.

[jake3373]

Home Premium may be OK for home users (the kind of people who can't tell the difference between IE and Firefox), but my mom uses it on her computer (it runs OK for her) and I can't get into Group Policy Editor or install MS Virtual PC. I'm sticking with my XP Pro until I can get Win7 Ultimate when it comes out October 22.

[donnie_1]

What a freaking ABM homer ... when does the Microsoft community get a writer like this (and please don't tell me it's Ina). When do we see the shots at Linux like this ? When ? When do we see the shots at Apple like this ? When ? Never - that's when. It's only acceptable to take shots at Microsoft regardless of how inaccurate they may be. Microsoft isn't even as evil as Google or Apple now people ! Wake up !!

[monkeyfun14]

While I agree with you I don't think any company is truly evil. Maybe some of the fanboys for these companies but not the company its self.

[daverosenberg]

With your clarity of thought in the above comment, it's clear that your voice should be heard. Why don't you start a blog?

[reya276]

Serious I think your the one that needs to wake up, do you even know half of the things that microsoft does that is plain illegal and get away with it. Please stop trying to tell people to wake up, because you are still a sleep. Apple may have a monopoly on its hardware but at least they are honest about it and try to give you a choice, you either buy it or you don't. OSX is by far much better than Windows. Ubuntu which is my main system is also way better than windows. If your a gamer go ahead and stick to winjunk but everything else Ubuntu or OSX.

Also CNET regardless whom is writing the articles is PRO Microsoft 100% there is not biased reporting on this site. So stop complaining.

[ITDph]

Alright, Mr. Balmer. Quit writing posts under the name of donnie_1.

[pentest]

Microsoft has earned the ridicule.

Why are you so offended that a incompetent company gets made fun of?

[Seaspray0]

@daverosenberg. I have a better suggestion. If you can't be unbiased, then stop writing your blog since you are the one with the cnet contract. That's something we don't have. If you're not willing to stop writing biased blogs, then I hope cnet has the sense to drop you for someone who can be unbiased (something I expect from news sources). Remember, you depend on our readership for that paycheck and right now you have customer complaints.

[Seaspray0]

@pentest. Capturing 90% of the desktop market is not incompetent. While microsoft is not perfect, neither is anyone else. I can recognize faults and failures in a multitude of companies... windows ME, apple lisa, vista's resource hogging, apple's inconsitencies in app approval, linux driver issues, etc. They are problems but are not overall incompetence. The problem with you is that you are just as biased as dave rosenberg.

[Police_States_of_America]

this article made me lol. keep up the good work dave. its rare to read a tech article that actually is entertaining as well as informative.

[Mr. Dee]

I realize that Dave has some vendetta against Microsoft. What happened Dave, were you promised a Bill Gates exit interview and didn't get it? For someone who is an obvious Mac user based on your Firefox screenshot, you seem to think you are obligated to define what is the best operating system for the PC. If so, then Linux would be the best software for the Mac, but maybe Steve Jobs would hit upside the head with an iPod Classic.

The last time I checked: Microsoft Office runs on Vista, so does Adobe Creative Suite, AutoDesk AutoCAD, Corel Painter, Intuits Quickbooks and Quicken and many other popular commercial applications. What is Ubuntu good for, a session of Terminal? People want something they know will work with their applications, devices and the rest of the world, that's Windows Vista.

Anyone who buys a Ubuntu based Dell system will simply format it and load a copy of Vista or XP. Its the harsh reality.

[daverosenberg]

Here's the CNet review of Windows Vista Home Premium:
http://reviews.cnet.com/windows/windows-vista-home-premium/4505-3672_7-32013237.html

[Mr. Dee]

and your point?

Windows Vista Home Premium is a consumer operating system that a lot users I know who run it are thoroughly satisfied with it. It includes the Aero Glass Graphic effects, Media Center, Parental Controls, Tablet PC input, Photo Gallery, Movie Maker with HD, Meeting Space, DVD Burning capabilities and more. Whats wrong with it? I personally can't tell the last time I sent a facsimile. CNET reviewed Vista like it was some curse, when the upgrade process is smooth as most Windows installations can be.

Why don't you point out the 7 service releases Apple has released for Mac OS 10.5, or when Mac OS 10.5 GA destroyed user data when moved from partition to partition?

[searchie]

Today I spent some time at http://www.opensourcewindows.org/ and http://osswin.sourceforge.net/ , looking at all the open source software available FOR WINDOWS! Yeah... that's what I said windows! Firefox, OpenOffice, VLC(media player), Sunbird(calendar), Blender(professional 3D modelling), Pidgin(IM) and many others are available and most of them are available for all three of the most popular platforms, windows, Mac OSX and yes linux. Ubuntu comes with enough applications for most users to start doing useful stuff with their PCs right away. I installed Ubuntu on this (Vista) laptop as soon as I got it home and have been using it ever since. I only used windows to run Mediacoder to trans-code some videos. As for upgrades I have upgraded from 7. 10 to 8.04 to 8.10 and just recently to 9.04 and have always been able to use my laptop while the download and THE UPGRADE were in progress!

At first I had to do some fiddling to get wireless networking to work but most recent installations I have done it just works out of the box. It has all been worth it for the complete lack of popups, adware, spyware, trojans and viruses I have experienced. In one case I was able to help the windows communtiy when an roguet web site attemtped to install av360 (or on of it's variants) on my laptop. I simply downloaded the .exe and submitted it to a couple of anti-virus web site for analisys.

You really should try and be properly informed before you post misinformation like you did today. You can start by downloading the latest live-cd .iso to match your architecture (x86 or AMD64) and burning it to a CD. Once you've successfully booted that, you can then burn it or other images to any USB flash memory stick with 800Mb free, using the "USB Startup Disk Creator" menu item under System>Administration. You can then experiment with any systems that can boot from a USB device, quite easily. Running live from the USB flash drive will give you performance much closer to what you will get from a native install than will the livecd.

Once you've done that you should realize that Ubuntu (Linux) is far more useful than you imply and that, is "the harsh reality"i

[reya276]

See that is where your wrong people who buy a Dell PC with Ubuntu is because that is what they want also you should know that the Average user does not run any of the applications mentioned except maybe office and Ubuntu already comes with OpenOffice out of the box so no need to spend that extra $300 on Office. So as for your " the whole world runs MS" comment ah no....Sadly mistaken. I bet your from the U.S because fortunately the U.S is not the whole world(we may think it is, since we add world to baseball grand finale). Only in the U.S Ubuntu/Linux has not seen the uptake that it has everywhere else. In fact other countries are converting all their government and public school systems to use FREE software with ODF(Brazil, France and Russia are a few examples).

So due to this Microsoft is being forced to give away their software for free as in beer not freedom. Usually when people get tired of MS windows is when they format their hard drive and install Ubuntu not the other way around so good luck with your FUD it is much appreciated. The real funny part about all of you is that the Author of the article is actually giving you some factual and good information yet you people want to bash him, wow no wonder this world will never change and I'm truly a shamed to be part of it and people call this kind of crap progress they need to re-think that statement.

[Mr. Dee]

Windows Vista comes with what most people want already. But my point remains, if people want professional applications that run the business and are well known for their getting the job done, you are only gonna get that from Windows. Yes, Ubuntu may come with an Office suite or a media player, or an IM client, but we know how mediocre they are. Have you launched Open Office and experienced the molasses level experience it gives you? Not to to mention the inconsistency and the lack in output. People want quality and the Windows ecosystem delivers that.

[searchie]

"Windows Vista comes with what most people want already", except Office. It comes with a trial version which works for x days then you have to pay for it. Ubuntu comes with OpenOffice which you say is mediocre yet, my girlfriend was able to prepare her masters thesis using OpenOffice. She used Gimp instead of Photoshop to edit her illustrations. It was only when the thesis was complete that she saved it in Word format and ran it through Word's grammar checker, since OpenOffice did not have one at the time. It now does. Would you also say that Firefox is mediocre?

You don't seem to understand that open source softwar eusually improves faster than proprietary software. As far as I can tell, Linux has improved far more in the twelve years since I first tried it, than Windows has in the same time period. I can install Ubuntu 9.04 from a USB flash drive in a little over half an hour, including re-partitioning and downloading of restricted software (Flash and codecs). All the dialogs are at the beginning of the install then I can go do something for half an hour, including browsing the web on the same PC that is having Ubuntu installed. At the end, download and install the Flash player and the restricted codecs and it's ready to roll. I've installed Vista and it's a PITA compared to Ubuntu.

Some time ago I experienced some of the stuff you write about with OpenOffice but, unlike you I believe that open source development models will eventually delver a superior product. As a result I regularly check back on the projects I am interested in and I am usually impressed with the progress if not the actual product. Be careful how you disparage open source software because, it is a moving target. In one year projects can be transformed from barely usable to something approaching popular commercial software in terms of quality and features.

When was the last time you tried Ubuntu? My guess is anywhere from one to three years ago. You definitely can not be talking about the system I am using on this laptop (Ubuntu 9.04)

[mrbroncosfan]

searchie, I'm a big proponent of Open Office, but to imply that it is superior to MS Office is homerism at best, and naivety at worst. It's great for what it is, but quite frankly, it's performance is still sub standard when compared against OO, and calc is a piece of garbage, quite frankly. And that's coming from someone who refuses to shell out the money for a copy of office, so I just stick with OO despite my recognition that it is still an inferior product. It has come a long way in a short time, but it still isn't up to par, yet. Perhaps someday soon, but not yet.

[kcotham]

Mr. Dee,

Get real, there are tons of good, free, productivity applications out there for Ubuntu, heck it comes with just about everything you'll need. Anyone that buys the Ubuntu version is obviously looking for something different, more stable, less buggy, and not as subject to viruses, trojan horses, worms, etc. They are very unlikely to go back to Windows.

[searchie]

mrbroncosfan, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I think OO is a superior product to MSOffice. I do not use it enough to be a judge of that. What I do know is that it was good enough in 2006, for a university student to use to put together their masters thesis, whatever the limitations. This in response to Mr. Dee's question, "What is Ubuntu good for, a session of Terminal?". He couldn't bash linux any harder and promote Micro$oft any more, if he was being paid.

I was thinking more about Firefox and the whole Ubuntu distribution in general, in terms of superiority. I have been using progressively more polished versions of Ubuntu for fourteen months now and find Windows inferior whenever I have to use it. Boot up and shutdown times are longer and MSN Messenger (Windows Live Messenger) starting at the end of the boot process (why?) doesn't seem to help. OS upgrades always seem to require a restart vs. only occasionally for linux. I do not feel I am in control of a Windows PC, with software vendors (including MS) all apparently fighting for a space in the quick launch bar or the system tray and viruses and trojans threatening to strike at any moment. I just like being able to use my PC to do what I bought it for with peace of mind and I have that now.

[kcotham]

Open Office is more than sufficient for the majority of users. M$ Office tries to be all things to all people. M$ Office has features that the majority of people will never use. Open Office has just about everything most people will ever need. There are only a handful of features that it doesn't have and most people will never need them.

Is that clear people? I don't know any other way to say it. If you have special requirements for your writing, you probably are using a program or system developed for that type of writing anyway. For example, if you are an academic, you are probably using a program using a LaTeX system like MacTeX or MiKTex instead of Word.

[grossj144]

The screen shot is attributed to Dell, yet the it was taken on what appears to be an Apple computer (or at least a Windows computer whose theme has been modified to look like a Mac). Odd.

[daverosenberg]

The screenshot was taken on a Mac.

[tm_anon]

The screen shot was taken of the site, not of the computer. Doesn't matter what platform it was taken on.

Congrats to Engadget for covering this same story you cribbed from without a hint of bias.
Zing? Are you twelve?

[Dan7637]

funny how you point out the 7 updates which pales to patch tuesday, you know the monthly thing where all those updates are released

not to mention the multiple restarts when os x update only takes one

[Mr. Dee]

It only takes one OS X crash to see a beach ball for an eternity.

[mrbroncosfan]

I don't recall ever having to do multiple restarts for updates. No matter what side of an argument you are on, FUD only destroys your argument.

[ikramerica--2008]

Mr. Dee, have you ever even used 10.3, 10.4 or 10.5? I doubt it...

[kcotham]

@Mr .Dee

What?! I've been using Mac OS X every since 10.0 and haven't seen it lock up "for an eternity". Stop spreading your bull and go back to kindergarten.

[tm_anon]

It never took me multiple restarts when updating Windows. However, it did require a restart.

Using Ubuntu right now, I can update it while typing a response, finish the update while typing the response, have all the changes made while pressing submit, still not have to restart while continuing on to the next comment.

I can even check back in 3 days and it still won't require a restart though all the updated software is running.

[pentest]

Installing Windows takes many reboots, updating always takes 1, no matter what.

Installing Linux(at least openSuSE) takes exactly 0 reboots, and what you have to restart depends on what was updated. The kernel updates requires 1 reboot, updating X or your currently running GUI requires that you restart X, not reboot the computer. Pretty much everything else doesn't require reboots.

[DrtyDogg]

Actually with windows 7 it requires 1 reboot for installation, and that is at the very end when the computer starts back up you are logging into Windows 7. I honestly cannot remember with openSuse as it has been a couple of months since I have installed it. Ubuntu also takes 1 reboot, and then another once you enable restricted drivers. OS X take a reboot afterwords too. It is pretty standard throughout the OSes.

As for updating again all 3 systems work about the same. Rebooting depends on the update.

[monkeyfun14]

@pentest

Ever considered installing all the updates first before rebooting? It does let you do that you know.

[bigpicture]

There we go again, just had to have one of those MS fanboys, where it is never MSs fault. Some of these large Corporate systems don't visit porn sites, and have double ring fire walls and they still get this thing called "conflicker". Ever heard of it???? It is ONLY on MS systems and on most of their OSs. It is very difficult to detect and infected system, and when it infects a system it is just about impossible to get off. Yea but the fanboys can blame it on porn.

[DrtyDogg]

Conficker is very easy to detect and prevent as the patch came out before the worm, and the removal involves running one free app. But feel free to spin it in any way you want.

[pentest]

Conficker will not always uninstall completely, and usually sets itself back up.

Of course the fact that something like Conficker is not possible on non-MS OS's seems to elude your small brain.

[DrtyDogg]

My small brain? I have removed Conficker from a clients network, it really isn't very hard.

The fact that you think that "something like Conficker is not possible on non-MS OS's" shows that you are not only a moron, but have no technical knowledge at all and should not be commenting on such issues.

My comment is not based in your fanboy fantasy land as I use and support all three of the major platforms on a daily basis.

[pentest]

Conficker is not possible on OSX or Linux.

[DrtyDogg]

"something like Conficker is"

[handydan918]

He's disappointed that Dell will not load anything besides the LTS version?
LTS doesn't get nearly the testing that Debian stable does, and the non- LTS releases are strictly beta-quality.
Better than Microsoft-beta, but beta nonetheless.

[tm_anon]

What's so beta about Ubuntu 9.04? I'm using it right now, everything works perfectly.

If anything, Ubuntu 9.04 is more stable than Windows XP was on this same system, feels less like a beta.

[monkeyfun14]

@tm_anon

What does a company tell a user when a issue can't be fixed cause its a beta?

[Sbell42]

What's the point?

It costs exactly the same with or without Vista Premium 64. Might as well get the Vista license and download the latest 9.04 Ubuntu build for free.

[Mr. Dee]

or save yourself the trouble and just stick with Windows Vista, it gets the job done and its very easy to use. Not clunky like the GNOME UI.

[kcotham]

@Mr. Dee

Vista, like all other versions of Windows is a steaming pile of bloat. GNOME is very usable, simple, and quite consistent. Those are some things you can NOT say about Windows.

[pentest]

DeeDeeDee,

You want clunky, look at the hardware requirements of Vista or 7. It does nothing that Linux can't do(except for DRM and malware) and yet requires 2-3 times the hardware Linux does.

[Vegaman_Dan]

@pentest:

Have you considered the possibility that your needs many not be the same as those that other people may have? Perhaps they want to run Photoshop on Windows in an enterprise environment. Perhaps GIMP simply cannot do what it is that the customer wants. Perhaps the customer isn't a Linux geek and doesn't want to have to learn how to recompile the kernel, or how to search for drivers for hardware they bought locally at a store... or learn they have to become a software engineer to write their own drivers.. or hope that someone out there has already done so with the amount of testing required to ensure a crash free experience.

Match the needs to the OS. There is no reason why everyone must agree with your choice. It was the right choice for *you* and you alone. Other people are free to make up their own minds.

[gggg sssss]

@pentest we are talking the Dell XPS here, not som ecrappy acer netbook. What does hardware requirements have to do with teh situation at hand?

[twolf2919]

I'm a bit disappointed that Dell doesn't seem to provide anything extra vs. a Vista-equipped XPS 13 in exchange for not having to pay Microsoft for their operating system. In the past, you'd get a bigger disk at least, but when I go to the Dell site, I see two identically configured (other than the OS) XPS13's for $1099.

@Xenite227: just because you *say* that Mac/Linux are just as vulnerable as Windows, doesn't make it so. Sure those operating systems can be hacked - but it's a heck of a lot harder than a Windows box - where even little script kiddies can break into pretty much any machine over the net. If I remember correctly, that Mac server you spoke of was "cracked" either by having direct access to the machine or via an exploit in Safari where the user had to go through some far-fetched scenarios to cause a buffer overflow. Windows is so easily compromised because Microsoft didn't have a clue about security when it designed it - pretty much everyone who has a Windows box gets "Admin" priviledges - that's just how it has always been....since everyone is running as "admin", every little virus they run has pretty much control over the whole system. Contrast that to UNIX based machines (e.g. Linux, OSX, Solaris, etc.) where a user has to explicitly run things as "root" - it's pretty much impossible to catch a virus that can take wipe out the whole system.

As to people not knowing security: that's right - that's what Microsoft caters to - common people. They should have made their OS more secure from the start so that average Joe couldn't get his machine infected so easily.

[Mr. Dee]

If I ping a Mac machine, the built in Firewall still reveals the OS which creates a simple ground work for mucking up things. Windows already includes sophisticated level of defenses that keeps the machine secure while not requiring much input from the user. Technologies like Windows Firewall, Security Center, ASLR, Windows Defender, UAC, Standard User Account, Internet Explorer Protected Mode, InPrivate Mode, Phishing Filter, Windows Update and a good well updated Antivirus installed more than prepare the average Windows user.

[searchie]

Mr Dee, strange that you cite all these "security" features of Windows when I've been around long enough to view these as recent additions. In the days when absence of these "features" left huge, gaping holes for hackers to exploit, Linux was already inherently more secure as pointed out by twolf2919.

If we should have all just been patient while Microsoft sorted out their security issues, by the same token, you should have been patient while OpenOffice and Ubuntu sorted out their performance and usability issues! Is your real name William Gates Jr. by any chance, or perhaps Steve Balmer? You sir, fit the definition of a shill ( http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shill )

[ikramerica--2008]

Who is hooking their computer directly up to the internet these days to allow a ping to reveal anything other than there is a router of some kind? Even most ISPs now provide equipment that provides local IPs via DHCP by default. So how many Macs are you pinging? What mac user is going to turn on file sharing over the internet without a router attached (most people smart enough to need this feature are going to have a router).

So does MS pay you directly, Mr. Dee, or do they funnel money through a dummy corporation?

[kcotham]

@Mr. Dee

You have no idea about Macintoshes, so don't even pretend you do. You ping my Mac, you'll get no response whatsoever. Nor will you get a response from anyone who has the "Enable Stealth Mode" checked in the security setup.

Funny you listed all the crap you have to have to defend an "average Window user". You need to add nothing to have a smoothly functioning Macintosh, or an Ubuntu machine for that matter.

Stop trolling and spreading your untrue crap.

[pentest]

"Technologies like Windows Firewall, Security Center, ASLR, Windows Defender, UAC, Standard User Account, Internet Explorer Protected Mode, InPrivate Mode,...."

Every one of those have been broken. EVERY SINGLE ONE

Besides, those are bolted on, added after the fact. They do not replace a solid build from the core secure OS, which Windows is not.

" Phishing Filter, Windows Update and a good well updated Antivirus installed more than prepare the average Windows user.""

Typical users don't know how to set and up use this crap.

Look at your long list. Linux doesn't need all that crap, just a lightweight firewall, to be secure. Your list is all crap that doesn't work and slows down your system and annoys the crap out of its users.

I can't believe you typed all that and still can't understand why Windows sucks.

[Vegaman_Dan]

@kcotham:

"You ping my Mac, you'll get no response whatsoever."

Considering that PING is a layer 4 protocol that is built into the TCP/IP stack used in Windows, Linux, and OS X, then the only way your Macintosh will not respond is if it is behind a router, the wrong IP/MAC address used, or the machine is turned off. Otherwise it will indeed respond properly as designed by the protocols.

This is a standard protocol and applies to all networked systems using the TCP/IP stack.

I think you may want to lighten up on telling people they don't know what they are talking about when you seem to have overlooked basic network topology 101.


@pentest:

I installed Ubuntu from the download of the day about 18 months ago. It was true- I had a fully installed system in 20 minutes. Awesome! Just as advertised!

Then the updates hit.

More than 30+ updates, all deemed 'critical' for a fully complete build released that day. It was more than three hours before I could actually *use* the machine. Somehow that never seemed to be mentioned in the promotional material on the website, nor from advocates such as yourself. According to you, it should have been perfect out of the box, nothing needed, and yet the OEM itself was pushing 30+ critical updates.

Your kettle is looking very black these days, kcotham.

[DrtyDogg]

from the winner of the Pwn to Own contest:

"Why Safari? Why didn?t you go after IE or Safari?

It?s really simple. Safari on the Mac is easier to exploit. The things that Windows do to make it harder (for an exploit to work), Macs don?t do. Hacking into Macs is so much easier. You don?t have to jump through hoops and deal with all the anti-exploit mitigations you?d find in Windows.

It?s more about the operating system than the (target) program. Firefox on Mac is pretty easy too. The underlying OS doesn?t have anti-exploit stuff built into it."

And from the runner-up:

"Really? What?s the difference between what you can do on IE but can?t do on Firefox?

For all the browsers on operating systems, the hardest target is Firefox on Windows. With Firefox on Mac OS X, you can do whatever you want. There?s nothing in the Mac operating system that will stop you."

From http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=2941&tag=rbxccnbzd1

[gorgeclimber]

I have been using Apples since 1980 and Microsoft since 1984. I currently have Mac OS 10.2, 10.4, 10.5 and Microsoft XP, Vista, 7, Home Server, and Ubuntu on various machines. Those who proclaim "mine's better than yours" attitude about the various OSs is misguided. Each OS has pros and cons. While I prefer Windows products, I see value in each of the others. Grow Up!!

[Mr. Dee]

I am not forcing anybody to use Windows, I am just trying to make the point that Windows does a good enough job already on OEM PC's. Trying create some misguided theory that Ubuntu makes the PC cheaper and just as easy to use as Windows is a lie and you know it.

[kcotham]

@Mr. Dee
It's not a "misguided theory" it's the truth and them's the facts. Just because you've got your head so far up Bill Gates' arse doesn't mean the rest of us can't get the job done with a non-Microsoft product.

[tm_anon]

No no, Mr. Dee is right. Ubuntu isn't just as easy as Windows. It's actually easier since there's less maintenance. Easier to find apps through Synaptic to do what you need or just check Add/Remove programs to find what you're looking for.

Windows does have its place, it just shouldn't be in the home of the "average user".

[monkeyfun14]

@tm_anon

Until the terminal is never needed in ubuntu and I mean the ability to install and do everything in ubuntu without the terminal then it will be easier to use until then OSX and Windows are consumer OS's.

[kcotham]

@monkeyfun14

I've been using it for a while now, and haven't HAD to use the terminal yet.

[pentest]

1. The terminal is not required

2. It is funny how morons like monkey boy aren't smart enough to do any thing except mouse clicks. The terminal will never completely go away because it is several orders of magnitude more powerful than any GUI. You just don't understand because the terminal MS provides is a joke. I can do things on the command line in less then 5 seconds that would take at least 30 in a GUI. But still, see 1. I use the terminal to run software such as nmap, kismet, and nikto, change permissions on files, and perform complex searches. Most people do not do these things, so is not required.

[tm_anon]

@monkeyfun14

Sure, I've used a terminal. Thing is, I didn't need to. I used the terminal when I don't feel like using the mouse and I use the mouse when I don't feel like using the keyboard. I get the choice with Linux.

When I use Windows, I have a GUI, that's it. I have to hunt and click for anything I don't use constantly, even if I know the name of the app I'm looking for and what its basic functions are.

Oh, that's another thing, when an app is installed in Linux, its categorized under a particular list. If I want to work with graphics, I go to Applications<Graphics and choose the app, same with music, same with internet, same with games, etc. If I'm using Windows, I go to the start menu, cross my fingers and hope that I can find what I'm looking for. The lack of organizations is why so many people put "shortcuts" on their desktop for every app they've installed, so they have at least a fighting chance at finding what they're looking for.

When Windows gets to be as easy to navigate and use as Linux, let me know. Until then, it's not ready for the "average user".

[Vegaman_Dan]

@kcotham:

"I've been using it for a while now, and haven't HAD to use the terminal yet."

Okay, let's test that theory out. Let's have an end user who is not a linux geek be given a machine with Ubuntu preinstalled. They then will be sent out to Best Buy to buy... oh, let's say... a USB all in one MFC printer from HP that has all the nifty bells and whistles. That customer takes the machine home and plugs it in. According to you, the customer will not have to take a single step to make that printer work correctly. It will just autoconfigure and work. Nevermind that there are no drivers written for it yet from the OEM. No problem, you'll just go to... um... wherever it is that Ubuntu drivers for unsupported hardware is kept. The customer is then responsible to go searching online to find drivers. Let's say they even find a reference to a driver someone made themselves. Fantastic!

They download and... well, okay, let's step back and educate the customer about tarballs. Sorry, you need to know this too. Okay, so they unpack it. They follow the instructions, copy the files the right locations and are then told they need to edit the conf files. What the heck are conf files? Oh right, more user education. No problem, the average soccer mom already knows all they need to know about conf files, right? No problem at all. Heck, the instructions are right there in the readme file.

They configure it, try it out and... nothing happens. What the heck? Oh... a few more hours of searching online and they see that the release of Ubuntu they have is a slightly different one than the version that the driver was written for. The conf file actually belongs in an entirely different directory altogether. Oh, and you have to modify the file to make sure it knows what version it is and where the libraries are. What? Libraries? Yes, you know about libraries, don't you? Okay, another step back and a few more hours to learn this as well.

You can see the pattern here. For geeks like us, we thrive on ferreting out all these juicy details, revel in conquering a configuration issue and making something work where it had no reason to before. That's *FUN* to us because we are geeks. i

It is *not* fun to a soccer mom who simply wanted to be able to scan or print photos with their HP printer.

THAT, kcotham, is the reason that Linux is not mainstream in consumer homes yet. Walmart has tried twice and failed to sell it at retail locations because of the misunderstanding that Linux is not Windows and will require some education on the customer's part to figure out how to self support their system.

Apple has done a fantastic job of insulating the OS from the end user and it shows. You don't need to be a geek to use a Mac or Windows system. That is a great success there for those platforms. Until Linux is a turn key solution that doesn't require a geek to install, operate, and support unknown issues, then it will always be limited.

Please remember that you are not the average computer user if you are reading CNET. You're already a geek and know where to find those resources if something doesnt work. That soccer mom won't.

[gggg sssss]

@pentest I used command line mode on a Dec PDP 11. In 1974. This is 2009. Has been for 6 moinths. Why woudl anybodyintelligent say that requireing a command line mode is at all an advancement?

Why does a Ubuntu laptop cost $1000 for the base price? At least the base price should be somewhere down near $450. Let the upgrades take it to $1000.

[Mr. Dee]

Why would anyone pay $1,000 for a laptop running a mediocre OS, when they can get the value already included through Windows Vista? It shows that Linux actually does not lower the cost a computer, just adds more head aches and frustrations. People are seeing through the propaganda though and are choosing Windows which works and gets the job done. Redhat, Ubuntu, Novell SuSE, all of them are businesses who are just eager to be the dominant desktops and are using this 'free' theory through their distributions as leverage to do so, but you will end up paying for it one day.

[kcotham]

@Mr. Dee,

You are the persistent little troll aren't you? You pay for Windows every second you use it. It's a walking target for malware, it's an inconsistent, poorly designed UI, it's unstable, and requires a lot of effort to keep virus free and running smoothly. Take your Windows-tinted glasses off for a moment will you?

[searchie]

kcotham, glad to see I'm not the only one who finds Mr. Dee's trolling obvious and tiresome. Still, it's a sign of progress on the open source software front, when people find it necessary to respond to articles like this one with lies and misinformation. If there was no threat at all, they'd just ignore it.

[Vegaman_Dan]

@kcotham:

"You pay for Windows every second you use it"

As you do with Linux, OS X, etc.

" It's a walking target for malware, it's an inconsistent, poorly designed UI, it's unstable, and requires a lot of effort to keep virus free and running smoothly."

And Linux requires a geek to keep it running. Anything less and you have a dead system without driver support and unhappy owners who have no recourse to turn to for support. At least if there is a problem with a Mac or Windows system, people can find help easily. Linux? Hello? Linux? Is anyone there? Oh yes, Red Hat has support. No problem, call them- oh, you are running Ubuntu and not a Red Hat product? So sorry, goodbye.

"Take your Windows-tinted glasses off for a moment will you?"

I think you need to get some perspective in reality yourself, kcotham. Linux is not the solution for everyone. It worked for you and that's fine. For me, I like OS X and Windows. That doesn't mean Linux is any worse or better, just that it doesn't meet my needs at this time. This is a concept you may benefit from taking into consideration.

[kcotham]

@Vega

No, Linux does not require a "geek" to keep it running. One of my friends is what I would describe as "not technically proficient" and she does quite fine with an installation of Ubuntu on a Dell Inspiron. I installed it, and she maintains it. Just a few simple instructions on using the built-in maintenance tools and I haven't heard from her in months. I used to get a call from her at least twice a month when the machine was running Windows.

[stockyjoe]

I think its good they are making the offers to sell without windows. I have heard that non technical consumers buying these options based purely on price end up returning them. I don't know if that says anything good or bad about Linux or not.

[tm_anon]

The returns can be attributed to poorly informed salespeople for the most part. If you buy it on the website from the OEM, you know what you're getting.

If you get the "average user" and have him/her actually try each OS for 1 months time, that "average user" will choose Ubuntu over Windows. Less maintenance and no slow down are a very good thing.

[gggg sssss]

tm_anon Dell has no salespeople. Order takers yes. So you are agreeing that most users will not be able to do anything useful with their lInux computer?

[Chapmaniac]

I'm running Vista Home Premium 64-bit. It's not perfect but it does run anything I want or need. I tried Ubuntu, Mandriva, Suse and a few others. They're usable - but not perfect either. The average user, as much as they like to click on the "yes" button (which can get them into trouble) is going to feel left out when they attempt doing so and find out their (Linux) OS doesn't support the software they feel they want or need.

Do a search for a game you want to demo - it runs on Windows.
Attend a college course on CAD - the required program is very expensive and runs on Windows.
Want the best and easiest home video processing solution? It (also) runs on Windows.
Start working in the real world and you're gonna be seated in front of a Windows computer.
Want the world's most-used office suite? Yeah, it's from Microsoft too.

And while this isn't a perfect solution, no solution is. Mac OS X has some interesting alternatives but no businesses are seriously considering purchasing new hardware just to run a new OS. Linux has some compelling alternatives - and probably has the best chance of unseating Windows in the office place (and elsewhere) but it really needs another few years to mature and get some backing.

Which brings us to an interesting catch-22. Linux won't get backing until it gets more popular and it won't become more popular unless it gets the (shrink wrap packaged software) backing people need or want to run on it. Round and round we go while Windows 7 is near release and promises to unseat Linux in the netbook market.

[Mr. Dee]

Windows has already unseated Linux in the Netbook market with 96% market share. That study was done sometime back in March, it probably has reached 100% long ago. People are still in the mindset of for Linux to win, Windows must loose. Its the stick it to the man mentality that is killing the Linux brand. Linux is not playing on its own merits. There is no innovation or unique identity, it copies Windows and say 'hey, we have something like the folks in Redmond and its free'. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery, but the Open Source folks simply do a bad job at it.

[kcotham]

@Mr. Dee

Oop, there's that old "market share" chestnut that all Micro$oft cronies pull out. I'd be disappointed if I didn't see it. Funny you should say "imitation is the greatest form of flattery" and then state that "Open Source [sic] folks simply do a bad job at it". That's what Microsoft has been doing for 25 years. They've been trying to mimic Mac OS and doing a **** poor job of it the whole time. You'd think they'd give it up after a quarter of a century, but I guess they're either too stupid or too stubborn to learn.

[searchie]

I'm dying to see Microsoft come up with something to top Beryl/Compiz Fusion. Pity I'm not a gamer so I don't have the graphics hardware to do some of the really cool stuff. Hey Mr. Dee, which feature in Windows or Mac OSX for that matter, did the Compiz developers copy to come up with all that eye candy?

[tm_anon]

Windows 7 means having to pay for a license. Netbooks are cheap devices meant to start up and shut down quickly for light duty. Paying for a license isn't cheap and Linux starts up faster. Ubuntu will be starting up near instant by the time Windows 7 is officially released due to the move to ext 4 in Ubuntu and the upgrades in other file systems as well.

Who wants to pay that much for an accessory with less perks and slower boot times when you can pay less and have more?

[monkeyfun14]

@kco

Your a fool if you think Apple would honestly continue to innovate with no competition from Microsoft.

But there really is no point in arguing with you. It doesn't matter what I say your still going to have your narrow minded Apple is the end all views.

[kcotham]

@monkey

It's "you're", not "your" first of all. Competition is a good thing, it keeps things moving forward.

[DrtyDogg]

@tm_anon: Funny I have 9.04 installed on my desktop and Windows 7 Beta 1 and I actually find that Windows 7 boots faster than Ubuntu. And as for the license not being cheap, if you look the price for the Ubuntu Dell is the exact same as the Vista Home Premium 64bit Dell.

[pentest]

Mr Dee,

You are funny. Vista and 7 is a very poorly done ripoff of Apple and Linux. What is funny is that Windows still can't provide basic functionality that the others have had for 10+ years. All those "new" features in Vista, were available elsewhere for years. What about a fragment-resistant filesystem? MS has been working on one since 1996 and still can't get it working. They would have saved a ton of money if they simply added EXT or Reiser support. Meanwhile other OS's have not only had solid filesystems for decades, users of Linux can choose among several file systems and tweak them to fit what their software will require for optimal performance.

[tm_anon]

@DrtyDogg

Windows 7 has yet to be officially released. By the time it has been, Ubuntu 9.10 will be out and, as has been stated on their official website and by every site reporting about Ubuntu, it will have moved to the ext 4 file system. Ext 4 is faster than ext 3, meaning boot times are much faster.

Also, Windows 7 will be preinstalled by the OEM, that means crapware, that means, at least on the first boot, the machine will run that much slower. Now take into account Windows past and you'll see that Windows does have a tendency to slow down over time. Sure the hard drive can be reformatted and Windows can be reinstalled and run like new, but how long will that last again? Ubuntu doesn't need that, neither do other Linux distros.

Now, as for the price, Dell is offering the exact same hardware for the exact same price with two different OS'. One of those OS' is completely free of charge, does not require anyone to pay for a license at any time and one of those OS' is proprietary and does require a licensing fee. That either means Dell is paying Canonical for support of Ubuntu or it means that Dell makes more off of the Ubuntu version of this laptop.

If Dell is making more off of this version, I hope that means the hardware quality will go up. If Dell is paying Canonical for support, that means more Ubuntu for the rest of us. The only loss would be if Dell is both making more money off the Ubuntu version and the hardware quality does NOT go up.

[DrtyDogg]

tm_anon: You start out by pointing out that Windows 7 has not yet been released and then proceed to compare it to Ubuntu 9.10 which is not yet released.

Believe me I do understand that ext4 does improve file system speed, though not by a whole lot. I'll let you in on a little secret, Ubuntu 9.04 can already run on ext4 if you set it up to. I am already running it with my personal install.

Really I don't care WHY the dell costs the same no matter what OS you put on it I was just pointing out the flaw in your statement: "Who wants to pay that much for an accessory with less perks and slower boot times when you can pay less and have more?" There are hundreds of studies found throughout the internet that argue the cost effectiveness of OSS vs Proprietary, not a debate I care to get into.

[kcotham]

Dave, it's 9.04, not 9.4.

[daverosenberg]

Thanks--fixed it.

[dsterry]

My next laptop will come with a GNU/Linux-based OS pre-installed because I want to know that all hardware works. It'll most likely be Ubuntu but I'll try for gNewSense. Then I'll be installing XP and Vista in virtual machines only.

[pentest]

Then do 5 seconds of research.

Here is a tip, Toshiba laptops are extremely Linux friendly, especially the wireless card.

I have a Qosmio x305, and more of the hardware and extra buttons work in open suse 11.1 right out of the box then it does with the default Vista install. In fact all of the hardware worked out of the box, even the crappy built in camera.

[gggg sssss]

so you are going to be paying retail proces for XP and Vista? Fool.

[jerrymacGP]

What really ticks me off about this is that you can only get Ubuntu laptops in the US. Dell Canada does not offer full-featured laptops with Linux, only netbooks, with non-expandable memory and no optical drive. Yes, I know that you can buy any Windows machine and install Ubuntu on it, but all the retailers I've spoken to tell me that will void the manufacturer's warranty. That's not really an option for most users.

[pentest]

That is a lie. How could it void the warranty as it doesn't harm the hardware? I have had to send in my HP laptop for warranty repair with nothing but Linux installed.

[tm_anon]

@pentest

It voids the warranty because the OEM can claim its a software issue causing the hardware to malfunction because your system is not set up in the way they specifically set their machines up.

While you may be able to get hardware repaired with Linux installed, a retailer must tell you that it will void the manufacturors warranty as they have been informed of it.

Most users will stop there and not check with the OEM to see if it only breaks the software side of the warranty.

[pentest]

The OEM can try to claim that, but they can't prove it.

[gggg sssss]

@pentest but if they dont come toi your house, or talk to you as a result, what are you going to do? Sue? Maybe read teh warrantee before spouting.

[tipoo_]

Still not fixed: THERE IS NO UBUNTU 9.4. its at 9.04 right now.


If there was it would be awesome though ;-)

[daverosenberg]

Thanks--fixed it finally.

[tipoo_]

Great...Before it was implying that there are 40 months in the year ;-)