Comments on: Windows Server 2008 Foundation: April Fools?

Microsoft can't really expect to sell many copies of Windows Server 2008 Foundation, which doesn't offer what you can get for free in every Linux distribution.

[Mr. Dee]

The difference with Server 2008 Foundation is the Windows experience, the set it and forget it approach to networking it brings to SMBs. Implementing Linux is more of a chore and requires more experience compared to someone who probably has a A+ certification and knows a little bit about technology and just wants to get things going quickly. I noted in Ina's post it seems like a good value for class room labs where there are maybe about 10 to 15 clients and you want to have some organized control and clients have exceeded the limit of a workgroup setup.

Linux might be good for some desperate situations, but for those who just want that experience at a more affordable rate, will be accepting of this SKU. The cost of the server from the OEM will also consume the price of this edition of Windows. If your business grows and your IT infrastructure scales, at least upgrading to a more full featured SKU such as Standard, SMB or even EBS will be smooth.

[tm_anon]

In all the comments you've made, I've yet to see one where you were not so pro-Microsoft and anti-Linux that you could make some kind of sense.

For instance. The person who would set up a server of any kind for businesses or schools would have more than just A+ certification.

Actually, A+ certification might be just about enough to set up a workgroup, nothing past that though.

You mention Linux might be good for some desperate situations. Let's see, that means that Google is in a desperate situation, ZDNet is in a desperate situation. Actually, that would mean the entire internet is in a desperate situation with very few exceptions.

[gkeramidas]

i know 4 of my clients could have used this instead of windows server 2003. i don't use that convoluted exchange for email, so my clients do not need sbs.

[SBITS]

Convoluted Exchange? What's Dificult about Exchange?

[celticbrewer]

I'm sure a 15 person small business rarely has a linux expert among their ranks or wants to shell out hundreds per hour for a consultant. And I'm sure those same companies don't want to do any cloud computing. Hey- it'd be fine for me because I've done this for decades, but to the average business crowd who thinks Al Gore invented the Internet, windows is a lot easier and has the customer support that they need.

[rapier1]

Linux is not, yet a least, a turnkey solution. Businesses on limited budgets with limited expertise rarely will have the ability to set up a linux system to do what they need it to do. Eventually this will be possible but its not there yet. As such this offering fills a valid need. As for doing everything via cloud services - that sort of assumes that the business has an capable internet connection. Its not a given and some business owners would find it to be an unnecessary expense. As for why they don't 'give it away', that is because that isn't their business model - at all.

[derekmajor]

I have to disagree that Linux isn't a turnkey solution. Our company supports both Windows Servers and also as of last year IBM Lotus Foundations. IBM has a really solid product that it looks like Microsoft is trying to take aim at. IBM provides out-of-the-box solutions any small business, and we have clients as small as 3 - 5 users using these servers, can set up and start using within an hour. Microsoft has limited themselves to 15 users which is silly because ultimately in the long run it is going to cost our clients more so I will never offer this kind of solution to any client who has growth plans, and I don't know too many businesses who do not have some kind of growth plan for the future.

[Thranx]

"Windows Server 2008 Foundation doesn't come close to what you can get for free in every Linux distribution."

Hmmm, aside from a fire-and-forget design, a hojillion drivers that are ready made and idiot proof to install, and the simple fact that the file system and security integrates natively with thier clients without a bunch of rigamaroll.

Linux is the last thing a company of 10-15 people needs. What they need is an out-of-box solution that just works for file and print sharing, and user management. If Server 2008 Foundation can provide that, then they've beaten Linux because there's not a distro out there that can just be installed and be ready to server printers and files to 10-15 windows clients.

[tm_anon]

How about setting up a Windows Server 2008 Foundation to service 10-15 Linux clients in the same way? Oh, it's not that easy? The small businesses should just shell out the cash to purchase 10-15 Windows licenses instead? The cost for 10-15 Windows licenses is how much again?

Linux desktop is free and Linux server is free. There are companies willing to sell long term support for servers (Ubuntu, Red Hat, several others) at a cost roughly equal to what Windows will cost and the best part, it's much easier to scale up and much cheaper.

[Mr. Dee]

tm_anon, Server 2008 Foundation does not use CALs. All you need is to have the client PC's running Windows client and they can connect to the domain which is a max of 15. Good enough for most very small SMBs. I work at a Printshop with a total of 15 client machines, most times, the only people who need to even connect to our Windows Server are the cashiers.

[tm_anon]

@Mr. Dee

You didn't answer the question(s).

Wait, actually, you answered one. You'd have to be running a Windows client. That means that a shop is dependent on being all Windows (more money).

If this is supposed to service a small business, why would you want them to have to pay even more money just to be able to use a crippled version of Windows Server?

When you can get Ubuntu Server with paid support (less costly than Windows with paid support) or IBM Lotus Foundations (more mature than the new MS offering with better features), why would you ever pay for this crippleware?

It's great that you work at a Printshop and that your cashiers connect to your Windows Server. Now tell me, how much exactly does the Windows licensing cost in order to run Windows server along with the Windows clients for that small business and how many more employees could you have if you weren't having to pay that licensing?

Or better yet, how much of a raise could those cashiers have if you switched the company over to Linux which has zero licensing costs? How much less work would you have in securing the server? That's assuming you have it connected through any type of external networking in order to run credit/debit cards for transactions.

I'm guessing since you're so dead set on Windows, you've never really done the number crunching. Maybe it's time you did.

[rick118]

Stop & Take Note...Has anyone heard of Lotus Foundations Start? Released in June of 2007, is IBM's is an Linux based solutions for SMB's that Works!!! Lotus Foundations Start known "Foundations" offers SMB's a server solution out of the box without having to be an IT guru. Speaking of guru's...as an IT professional working with computer technology for 31 years...Lotus Foundations Start is solid. It offers out file server services (Mac, Windows, Linux), Built-in Firewall, VPN, Web Hosting, Web Mail, Lotus Notes email, IDB Integrated Disk Backup technology, Site-to-Site Tunnel Vision, Active Directory Support, Built-In Disaster Recovery with System (ER) and a whole lot more.

For Microsoft to " Steal" the concept of "Windows Server 2008 Foundations" is a day late and dollar short. You see I've been apart of the launch team for Lotus Foundations Start as a Certified Gold VAR for IBM/Nitix. Prior to the lauch mentioned earlier, Nitix since 1997 is the stuff that Microsoft can only dream of. The Nitx OS now IBM Lotus Foundations Start for many of my clients starts a 5 Users with the old MircoII Servers and up to 500 with the new IBM Advance Servers and anywhere in between.

Now with the launch of Lotus Foundations Start 1.1 offers Virtual Machine, IDB2 and more where you can now run Windows based applications without the headache of Windows.

IBM's Lotus Foundations Start it it's former name Nitix has been the thing of successful case studies for my clients. From a well know business who's founder was featured in a recent Hollywood movie, to trading institutions, medical, manufacturing and more.

April Fools??? Not for me, only to those who continue to believe Linux is not good enough or those Microsoft resellers who can't think out of a box.

Finally, a litmus test...How long does it take for you to setup a Microsoft "2008 Foundations Server"? Can you beat 15 Min?
How long does take to recovery a Microsoft server after a catastrophic failure?
You may say what kind....Pickone.....Hardware? Software? Corrupt Active Directory? Failed Backup System? And can you keep on running if one of these systems do?

Answer with IBM Lotus Foundations Start:
Hard Drives fail...the OS keeps on running for services like DHCP, Firewall, VPN etc.
Hard Drive Replacement...OS up and running in 2 Min....Data Restoration from Backup is a push of a button.
OS Software...It's solid state so it simply keeps running even after a hard boot.
Backups...it backups up data as often as every 15 Min.

Need I say more...

[rthresh]

I have to agree. MS comes up way short of the run way on this. IBM lfs, or Suse Sles10, or just about any other distro may be a better choice now days. Money is tight, can little businesses really afford any more MS? Like smoking, isn't it time to kick the habit? If they migrate to Linux, they won't be locked in to propriatery os that all to often falls short. Goto http://www-01.ibm.com/software/lotus/products/foundations/start/ and find out what your missing !

[benjwah]

No, instead of being locked in to a proprietary OS, you're locked in to the local nerd who set up your Linux server his special way 5 years ago and no longer works in the industry (retired) because he charged you $2 a minute to fix it every time it needed fixin', and it needed fixin' a lot. He now goes skydiving, because he retired at 30 after tricking your business, and a crapload of others into running Linux.
This is not an exaggeration, it's pretty much a retelling of what happened with our business about 5 years ago.

We've been on Windows Server for a while now, and it's been brilliant. It just works. Whatever money the licenses may have cost has been offset many times over.

And yes, I'm pretty well versed in Linux, I'm aware that it's much improved, but I don't know too many small business owners ready to hand over their IT infrastructure to a bunch of sweaty geeks and their weekend project.

Big business has all the resources necessary to get something out of linux, but for the rest of us, Linux is a chore, and Microsoft is a blessing.

[tm_anon]

@benjwah

Why'd you pay the local nerd instead of checking with an established business like Red Hat?

By the way, Linux has come a very long way in those 5 years. Now you can pay for service from established companies like Red Hat, IBM has a Linux based server, you can try out Canonical with Ubuntu Server which is a free download and from what I've heard it's a very easy installation.

Of course, since you were gullible enough to stick with one guy over 5 years who obviously couldn't do the job since his work broke down so much, I'm not surprised you went with Windows (equivalent of the local nerd).

Stick with it. Let the companies with a little more ability and forward thinking look into just how good Linux can be.

By the way, if you're so well versed in Linux, why didn't you set up and maintain the Linux server instead of paying the "local nerd" so much money?

[alegr]

That's probable another case of MS marketing coming with "smart" (NOT) solution.

[aaronmreid]

Windows 2008 Foundation or Windows 2008 LIGHT!!! I have had the opportunity of working in the industry for over 20 years and I am surprise to see a release of this light version of windows 2008 small business server. If this is an attempt to compete with the IBM Lotus foundations server, our f friends at Microsoft has a very long way to go... can?t compare and operating system to a small business solution.
The reason I mentioned the Lotus appliance formerly known as Nitix from the makers of the Net integrator before it was acquired by IBM, is I don?t have anything else to compare this new OS release with or anywhere else for it to play in the sandbox.
OK... not being bias here, just being practical ? here is just a wee bit of what the Linux platform can do and you then be the Judge..
Running on the open-source Linux® operating system, the IBM Lotus Foundations appliance easily integrated with any company?s existing IT investments. You can achieve automated, hourly backup, fast system recovery, and highly available backups operations through exceptional, yet manageable, redundancy.
Features:
It?s almost intelligent ? if you unplug the main power by accident or remove the hard drives you could still boo it up.. ?. Don?t worry you won?t corrupt the operating system..
Host your own email, FTP site or give access via VPN..
Create a user and the systems create the user email, drive mappings, VPN account, FTP account... and so on..
It?s also your firewall.. And to note.. (Yes i have one of these bad boys...) Someone tried to hack my server from somewhere in Asia this month ... It was smart enough to log all attacks along with IP address and most of all deny access.
These are just a few of the many things that the Linux almost intelligent box will do for you. If we are going to play in this space (Microsoft Small Business Server 2008 Light) to support the small business we need to have a solution not a just an operating system...
Let?s give Microsoft a chance to position Windows 2008 Foundations and then we can decide where in the sandbox it will play ...

[31x402]

I've had IBM's Foundations servers in a few small law firms for years (formerly called 'Nitix'). Small law firms - 3-6 employees - are incredibly cheap when it comes to investing in technology and IT support, but they love these machines/software solutions which do everything mentioned above and much more, with extremely little intervention (and they love NOT paying me any more to continuously and invasively support the Windows servers. IBM Foundations servers are so logical and simple to deal with that even tech-phobic lawyers are competent to deal with everyday questions). And, believe it or not, the IBM Foundations systems practically set themselves up in minutes. You won't believe it until you try it.

Most of my 'peer' Windows IT support companies refuse to deal with these IBM Foundations machines because:
1. "They're not Windows! (...and that's a problem?) and
2. "How are we going to make any hourly revenue on these, compared to our bilings for Windows server support? If you've got kids and families, you're cutting your own throat with the loss of support dollars - these things will kill your revenue!"

Not true: I get my foot in the door of a lot more firms and sell other services once I've got an IBM Foundations server in a client's office. And the IBM support is remarkably great, regardless of the Foundations issue. And I've got enough Windows-based server clients that this represents a great adjunct market for me.

Methinks Microsoft may be reacting to an encroaching IBM small business threat with its obvious attempt to steal the name for the small autonomic server IBM has been selling as 'Foundations'.

Let's just hope IBM succeeds in keeping the small business needs satisfied with respect to this product: it's obvious to us that it's a totally different animal and mom-and-pop playground than their historical enterprise/mainframe market. Not a market I've seen any of the big manufacturers really adequately address until now.

[rick118]

Follow up to my comments yesterday...I've ready many blogs about this "New" server solution offering by Microsoft for SMB's...the fact is the concept and the existence of IBM Lotus Foundations already in the market place validates IBM's solution for SMB's. As a technology integration company, my job is to solve today's business problems using the appropriate technology solution for my clients. For years in the SMB space, the Microsoft SBS solution simply was not a cost effective for my clients. Adding firewall, VPN, Routers etc...not only was cost prohibitive but complicated for my clients to maintain. Not to say the least about the hours spent pulling products together, doing the network design and proposals only to loose the deal due to $$$Price$$.

Besides, I have a huge problem with proposing a solution to my clients that is known to be problematic. I also have a huge problem with those other VAR's who implemented a Microsoft solutions at a very high price tag for simple things like email & file sharing...only to have my company come in after the fact to do damage control because something isn't working.

Don't get me wrong Microsoft is a good product with qualified individuals installing it. I just find many "consultants" have tunnel vision and push only Microsoft when there are better alternatives out there for SMB...."IBM Lotus Foundations Start".

Case & Point: In 1999 an associated introduced my to this "tan" box called Nitix. I thought yeah right...never heard of them. In 2001, a Net Integration Technology Account Rep. continued her pursuit to have me as a VAR. My comments was then..."I've heard of Microsoft, Cisco, Compaq, HP etc...never heard of Nitix until two years ago". I continued to say "If your product is as good as it is, then you find me a customer, I'll install it and it should be no problem...I don't have the time push a product I don't know anything about".

This Account Executive (no names) found me a client in Volo, Illinois, help secure the sale and shipped the product directly to the client site. On Thursday at 7:00PM first time seeing the product, I began the install...about 8:15 PM imported 80+ user credentials...9:00 pm began transfer of approx. 105 GB of data from a failed system. 11:00 PM I'm headed home.

Friday 7:00 AM - Cut-Over-Day...physically touched 80+ machines connecting them to the new Nitix domain..configuring email clients, testing emails etc. At 10:18 AM -- I'm sitting at McDonald's in Volo eating breakfast on my way home...project completed.

No problems, technical support was excellent and the client could easily manage the Nitix server with little intervention on my behalf. "Proof is in the Pudding" and "The Pudding" is my client's success stories.

Visit My Site: www.chicagoconsultants.com
Visit IBM's Site: www.nitix.com or http://www.nitix.com/products/index.php

Case Study See: http://www-01.ibm.com/software/success/cssdb.nsf/CS/LWRT-7JHREJ?OpenDocument&Site=default&cty=en_us.

[boyd carter]

MICROSOFT ISN?T TRYING TO COMPETE WITH LOTUS FOUNDATIONS; they know they can?t, and they really don?t want to. All they want to accomplish by using the word ?foundation? in their product name is to associate it with Lotus Foundations. Look at all the free publicity they are getting. The small business owner will hear the buzz, but won?t be bothered with the details. They will just go into their local retailer and pick it up off the shelf. They?ve heard the horror stories of the cost of external support required of Microsoft servers and don?t want any part of it. The fact that they can pick it up off the shelf convinces them they won?t need that external support; but if they do, they can get it cheap through the local retailer. Don?t believe me? Consider this scenario.
1. Microsoft knows that costly external support through SBSCs (Small Business Server Consultants) for their servers is keeping the smaller businesses from moving into the Microsoft Server environment.
2. Microsoft creates an alternate to SBSCs by teaming up with OnForce. This not only drives down the cost of external support, it gives Microsoft a piece of the action.
3. Microsoft creates a product that will be sold only through OEMs. Look for it in Costco and Best Buy by the end of the year.
4. Microsoft gets small ;businesses hooked on their server platform and provides an upgrade path straight into their Small Business Servers.
5. Now Microsoft has an expanded market for their servers plus a lower-cost support alternative, plus a share of the support market income.
Now, consider this. What will those small businesses do when they get home and discover that they can?t connect to their shiny new box until they upgrade their PCs. Another lift for Microsoft unless they are already running Vista Ultimate, and very few will be.
OR?? they could do what they should have done to begin with, bought Lotus Foundations Server (LFS). Now they can connect even their pre-Vista PCs to the LFS;
OR?? they could just start using Lotus Symphony from the LFS and avoid upgrading their Microsoft Office Suite;
OR??.. the possibilities for being better off with Lotus Foundations Server than with Microsoft?s family of servers are ?Virtually? (hint hint) unlimited. ?

[SBITS]

I have yet to find a person who supports linux that I can trust.
each one I have screws something else up...

So FREE doesn't mean FREE.
I'd rather have something supported, even if I have to pay.

And have you seen this product?
Or just making blind judgements?
Because you really give no reasons other than Opinions on why NOT this product.
My guess is you haven't and are just ranting like most people do with out looking at the product.

Next time actually review a product before you comment on it.
It will make you appear more credible.

[SBITS]

"Dave Rosenberg is part of the founding team of RiverMuse, an open-source "
.
No wonder why he's BIASED against Microsoft LOL
And thinks Linux is best.
I'm sure if he worked for APPLE he'd say the same thing that a couple of Apples are Best for a workgroup. LOL (Roll Eyes)

[DaveD1948]

I see good reasons for this product from my point of view. Many small businesses use Web based e-mail, so don't need Exchange (which is an admin nightmare and a resource hog). But they do need file services plus maybe Act! or QuickBooks or Autodesk's License Manager running on Windows Server. In fact, most Dental offices have less than 15 users, don't even use e-mail except for the office administrator and have simple server based databases using SQL Express. They need a few VPN and Remote Desktop users (i.e., the owners and support staff). They need to be able to add a user or assign a permission in a familiar environment, and to feel like they can handle it themselves if they had to.

And frankly, $799 for Standard plus $398 for 10 additional CALs more than doubles the price of a decently but frugally equipped Dell T100 with 4GB of RAM and 500GB in a SATA RAID-1 array. IMHO, something's terribly wrong in Denmark when the OS costs more than the hardware.

Dell's T100 effectively prices Foundation Edition at just $259 (the difference between Standard and Foundation). That's a pretty reasonable price for what you get, and you don't have to buy any CALs either, saving you another $398. That's a hard deal to beat no matter what.

I know very few few small business owners who want to pay the total in this example of $1,197 for the operating system and CALs - instead they'll look long and hard at other solutions.

Unfortunately, as of June 2, 2009 Dell does not offer this as a choice yet on the better equipped PowerEdge T300 or other servers capable of RAID-5. And that seems a real pity to me. But again, it's just hit the streets now, so we'll be very interested in seeing what happens over the next 2-3 months.