Comments on: Poll: Why don't you have a turntable?

What's wrong with you? Haven't you heard? Turntables are the next big thing!

[Dan_Ackerman]

Man, I've got my two black Technics 1200's set up in my kitchen, of all places, sitting on top of a 3x3 grid of 12-inch wood cubes for holding records. I also have a vintage Electrohome system, complete with plastic dome on top, in my bedroom, as well as two turntables in my office -- a vintage '70s GE tabletop and a new Ion USB turntable.

I used to DJ in a former life, but now I use them for entertaining (try spinning vinyl at your next house party instead of playing an iPod), and for rare stuff that's not available digitally.

One of my fave vinyl albums of all time just finally got released on iTunes/Amazon earlier this year -- "Francis Albert Sinatra & Antonio Carlos Jobim," while another, "Brasil '65 - Wanda de Sah" is still vinyl only...

[pubmat]

Dude, the question is why DON'T you have a turntable.

[dk jones]

i still have a 'table, i even pulled a mono 'table out of an old hi-fi so i'd be able to play the 78's that belonged to my mom when she was a girl! Billie Holiday, Dinah Washington, Bing Crosby & more from the early 1930's-40's... very cool! & this music isn't yet available on CD or download that i know of. btw, i also have a few iPods & an iMac + ext. HDD w/ all my digital media for synching them.

[gefitz]

Uh, because I don't own any vinyl?

[alegr]

I still have a turntable. In my garage, stored in a cardboard box. A few years ago I digitized my LPs and haven't run the 'table since then. The digitization was a great beetch, because I had to do it on the second floor, where all the vibrations get picked up. I should have done it on the first floor, which is on the concrete slab.

It seems to me there would be good money in updating records from vinyl to something more durable. The exact same analogue techniques, 100% backwards, just less scratches. Or has this happened since I last bought an LP?

[mediocrates--2008]

For the same reason I don't own a typewriter - it's obsolete technology that's inferior in every way. Seriously, a turntable isn't offering you good sound, it's only offering you fond memories of youth.

[cheinonen]

I'll make the guess that you don't own a table, or the last time you listened to a turntable was a very old one with some records that no one took good care of. As someone that owns a turntable (and a Blu-ray player, and an SACD player, an external DAC, and almost any other format you can get music on), a well setup table with well cared for vinyl sounds fantastic. Listening to the new album from God Help The Girl last weekend, I heard one pop the whole time, otherwise a nearly silent noise floor with a more musical sound that I can get from a CD. I'm not saying that vinyl is perfect and there aren't things that other media don't do better, but in no way is it inferior in every way.

[TXinD76121]

Poor lad, you've never heard it done right.

Which brings up a question--I wonder how many people there are out there who think they've "heard vinyl" but have never heard a good turntable set up right? I've heard even some expensive decks sound like cr*p because the person who set them up didn't know what they were doing.

I used to say that the sound quality of CD is either B, B+, or B minus, whereas vinyl can go from F to A+. I would guess most common record player setups achieve no better than a C grade. People who say CD sounds better are usually right...based on what they've heard.

[pubmat]

Agreed.

[paulmolinari]

Agree that it offers a great portal to one's youth. Part of music is to take you somewhere else, right? From time to time, I'll put on a record and notice some sounds that you won't hear on a CD (forget about iTunes dreck) - and it's better - but that's rare for me and I have a pretty good table/system. I dig vinyl, but you won't hear me saying that LPs are better than Digital -- pro's far outweigh on the Digital end.

[mmntech]

I have a Dual CS-607 that used to belong to my dad. Nothing compares to listening to Coltrane and classic rock on it. I don't use it that often but sometimes I bust out the vinyl collection.

[rochmndx]

Why do I own a turntable? Because you can listen to vintage music the way it was intended. You don't have to deal with crappy remasters or direct from the LP master tape to CDs where everything is overly bright. You can get tons of stuff on LP for cheap at your local thrift store, some of which is simply not available on CD. I also have my relatives record collections, which is a good bonus.

I was always skeptical of the sound quality, though. It wasn't until I got a Pioneer PL-518 direct drive turntable and Audio Technica AT-440MLa cartridge that I truly appreciated the sound quality offered by vinyl: No inner groove distortion, accurate and un-distorted highs (no sibilance), low surface noise and very un-colored, transparent sound (on some later 70s/80s albums, I forget I'm not listening to a CD).

[AnamOnaRi]

A friend who works at the store where I bought my Monitor Audio Silver RS8 speakers (five of them) suggested I bring in my old BeeGees record and he would play it on the store's $2800 turntable with a tube preamp and a tube amp and into the RS8s that they have for display. So I did.

That was the first music I bought for myself when I was a kid. It is 30 years old, and I paid $6 for it. I hadn't listened to it much in about 20 years. When he put it on the good turntable and it started, my jaw dropped. I sat in the listening room in awe! It sounded like the BeeGees were right in the room with me. I think I nearly cried with the pleasure.

I love digital. A good digital recording (Like Jack Johnson's Sleep Through The Static) sounds amazing on any system I put it on. I know that vinyl can't reach the frequency range that digital can and is technically not as good. But there is something incredible about the vinyl. It adds a warmth and a depth and a life that digital can't quite get.

I have borrowed a friends old Techniques turntable that needed a few repairs and I put a Grado cartridge on it and it sounds really good. Not as good as the one in the store, but very nice. I am saving for a good turntable of my own, something I never thought I would ever spend any money on.

I'm converted!

[lmhs1970]

Used records are even cheaper than used CDs. For classic rock listeners some of the available remasters sound awful, one example being the Blood, Sweat & Tears 3 where the bass trombone parts sound like they are being played on a kazoo.
I'm using a moderate quality JVC belt drive and I'll admit my friends realistic direct drive sounds much better. The JVC is much more reliable than most CD players I've owned which is also a plus, and I found a decent cartridge that supports several common replacement styli so I should be set for awhile.

[one_flat_monkey]

i have three turntables. one is a Linn LP12 that i purchased in 1994. it's hooked up to my regular audio system. the other two are Technics SL-1700s that i used to make mix tapes with a Tascam Model 3 mixer that i bought in around 1978. one of the Technics is right next to me. i'm digitizing my LP collection ( around 2400 albums. i'm just finishing "C" -- Cutting Crew. how embarrassing! should i add "I Just Died In Your Arms" into my digital library? i await the vote : )

the third is in a box in the garage. i'd sell it cheap if someone wanted it. did i hear someone say "Craigslist"?

[TXinD76121]

I currently have three turntables: a Dual 1229, a VPI HW-19 Jr., and a Thorens TD-521. I listen to music files from the hard drive maybe 85% of the time, and play LPs the other 15%. I only have a few records, maybe 300. But as get older and go through successive culling of the vinyl, adding only a few choice specimens here and there, the quality of the record collection as a whole just gets better. Just the other day I scored a rare Mercury Living Presence, a nice Living Stereo, and a pristine though not expensive DG (Kleiber's Beethoven 5th) in an "antiques" shop I only went into while I waited for my son to get his submarine sandwich. Total value of the three records on the internet: about $90; what I paid: $17, including tax.

A plus: since I don't need vinyl in order to listen at all (like back when vinyl was all I had), I don't keep anything in vinyl I don't really like, or that doesn't sound really good. Another plus: I use MP3 and iTunes purchases to screen vinyl purchases; if I really like a record as a download, I'll go see if I can find it on vinyl. (You wouldn't happen to know if Howe Gelb's "'Sno Angel Like You" was available on vinyl, would you?)

Another thing I like: I tend to get lazy and leave the same record on the 'table for days. So I cue it up multiple times. It helps me to really get to know a record. I guess I'm just in that habit, from years past. But I like the habit.

Best thing about vinyl: when I get disgusted with the often just-not-quite-adequate sound quality of MP3s, spinning one or two of my best-sounding records is a great antidote. It centers me again. I often feel digital files are good enough...until the needle hits the groove.

Blue Mikey

(P.S. Sometimes the digital files do sound really good, though, I admit. Right now I'm listening to the Rudy Van Gelder Remaster of Roy Haynes' "We Three," that I got off eMusic, and it sounds great.)

[NLips]

I could either have the warmth and softness provided by small distortions and the signal compression present on an LP, or the clean ("sterility") of a CD. I love live music, and I like to listen to music as if I'm in front of the performers. The sharpness of sound in a concert hall makes LPs sound a little muffled, almost as if I'm listening in a recording studio.

That's just my preference, and others feel differently. However, it's also considerably cheaper to enjoy the sound of a high end CD system than a phonograph set up of "equal" quality.

[soundman45]

Let me first point out that I have always liked the sound of vinyl. I used to own several turntables but switched to Compact Disc very early on in 1983. I was thinking the other day with all the time that has passed and all the changes that have happened in the way we listen to music, do I ever really miss my vinyl collection. the answer is ulimately...... No..... Although vinyl can be the an extremely pleasurable listening experience, the one reason I fell in love with digital playback was the signal to noise ratio and transient response. (that is with uncompressed audio). I love vinyl but I have always hated record surface noise during quiet music passages. I still hear it on turnatbles no matter how expensive.

[analogapartment]

Primary reasons for me are the collecting and listening experience. I'll try new music on digital but enjoy music on vinyl...

[renagadesrelics]

I noted many stated the dont like the noise from vinyl. Well not all records have that "noise" Many that I have for my own use and for sale are clean sounding Awesome!

[pubmat]

I'm just not interested in vinyl. I don't care that some on here wax poetic about its warmth, or its full bodied sound, but fellas, thats just plain old distortion. Not to mention the crackles and pops. Its far too much work and expense to set up a turntable in order to get comparable sound to a disc. You can have superior sound for MUCH less with a disc, and with little effort. SACD and DVD-A simply blow away vinyl...and forget about blu-ray audio, no comparison. Face it guys, no offense, but you're listening to a 20th century technology.

[TXinD76121]

You're right, turntables are very fussy, expensive, and lots can go wrong. On the other hand, some people find the various gizmos and mechanisms and the whole Rube-Goldberg experience to be FUN. To paraphrase a comment I read in the '80s: "a CD player is just a CD player, but a turntable is a toy forever."

I would never argue that vinyl is the perfect medium, of course. Far from it. But I find it fun to mess around with. It *is* partly nostalgia, too, but those days were great fun and I'm very glad I lived in the vinyl era as well as in the era we're in now!

[vvdiaz]

@mediocrates: CD sales are going down like a paratrooper without a chute. On the contrary, LP sales are going up and, unbelievably, the downloads for crappy-sounding mp3 are going up! I bet you've never owned a REAL turntable (the plastic ones with the USB connector do not count!!!)

Is really refreshing to see a picture of a Linn LP12/Graham combo on a mainstream web site like this one! Being the owner of a fine-tuned 1985 Linn LP12 and a Technics SL1200 MKII and a collection of about 500 LPs and 400+ CDs I can tell you an LP is a lot more musically involving than a digitally compressed CD/DVD/Blue-Ray disc.

Besides, scratch a CD/DVD/Blue-Ray disc against a wall or floor and you won't be able to ever play it again. On the other hand, do the same with an LP and, with maybe clicks and pops, you will still be able to listen to it. Talk about music forever!!!

[pubmat]

VVDIAZ....LP sales may be going up, but they are a FRACTION of CD and other disc sales. They'll never come close to digital media, ever. CDs are going down in sales, but they're being replaced with downloadable media. Hardly an improvement in quality. The point is, people don't give a crap about sound anymore, just convenience. LPs are just a fad among younger buyers that think its cool to own something retro.

[pubmat]

Also--I don't know if this is true or not-- I was told by a very knowledgeable person at a high-end store that LPs lose 2db of sound every time they are played. Now, I don't know if that number is correct or not, but they HAVE to lose some sound every time they're used, its impossible that they would not. Just another reason not to invest in vinyl.

[vvdiaz]

'LPs lose 2db of sound every time they are played'.

That is the most non-fundamented FUD comment I've ever read regarding LPs!!!

I agree with you regarding people not giving a crap regarding sound anymore. What pisses me off is that they pay for a convenient way to listen crap sounding music!!!

[soundman45]

Contrary to what a Hi Fi store enthusiests claims, vinyl does not lose 2db every time it is played. The groove walls will distort in shape to due to friction and repeated playings over time, even with the best turntables with the lightest tracking weights. Vinyl although pliable with the ability to reshape does have memory. It is highly susceptable to heat, humidity and warpage.

[alegr]

It would be an overstatement to say "2dB loss at every playback". Definitely, THD/SNR suffers after the maiden playback, and dust adds some noise over time. After a few times, the quality loss kinda steadies. You won't lose 60 dB if you play it 30 times.

[pubmat]

Agreed Alegr, 2dB is probably an overstatement, but the point is salient enough: LPs are a sentimental exercise in analog audio and not much else. SACD, DVD-A and blu-ray audio are so superior that there is no debate. Not to mention the fact that they definitely DO NOT lose 2,3, or whatever db when you play them, unlike vinyl.

[GEO2003]

NO TURNTABLE - Heck, I have my entire 7 system component, dual deck Cassett player, 6 cd changer, turntable, surround sound dedicated deck, receiver is boxed up but I can connect the cassett player, receiver/radio, turntable and cd player through a pass through cable which would allow me to record any of this on cassett.

It was quite a system 20 years ago. ANY BIDS ????

Geo

[Tousana]

I have a modest set up of a Music Hall MMF 5 and Creek Phono Pre, but also have a nice CD transport and PS Audio Digital Link III. The CDs are convenient for the 1400 titles I have but when I really want to get into the music I like to pop on the vinyl. I'm at about 400 Albums and counting. If the non believers care to experiment just go get a copy of a recent CD release and then find a nice 180G LP of the same title. Less level, less compression, better sound on the LP. And you might ask why, simple you can't cram that much level on the LP. Most CD's these days are so loud it hurts, some so load I've seen them distort some electronics.

[NLips]

Less compression? So how much compression would you say there is on a CD?

If you answer "none", you'd be right.

[cheinonen]

Though I really want to reply to the later comment here saying that there is no compression on a CD. They are thinking in terms of mp3-style compression, not compression of the dynamics in the music as it's recorded. CD has the potential for huge dynamic range which can lead to great sound. Unfortunately, over the past two decades, the db level of music on CD has be rising higher and higher as labels and mastering engineers go for a "louder is better" approach. This destroys the dynamic range of the music, and leads to compression of dynamics on the album.

Vinyl has inherent limits on the db level due to the technology, and thanks to better mastering, recordings that you will buy on vinyl should not suffer from this compression of the dynamics of the music, and so this is just one of many things that can lead to vinyl sounding better than a CD. It would be nice if companies would start to do a better job on mastering CD's to exploit the dynamic range available, if I want the music loud I can just crank up the volume like I do with vinyl.

[rochmndx]

To reply to a few replies - It really all depends on the mastering process. You can't quite say one does and one doesn't. In the mastering process for most rock music, significant amounts of compression and limiting are applied. This varies with the genre of music and style of mixing. In ye olde analog days, the master tape might have then been run through additional compression or processing before it was cut onto the LP. The CD of this album might be a raw capture of the master tape, thus having more dynamic range. It might also be that the original master tape was engineered for vinyl or the CD was recorded from the vinyl master. There's also the possibility that the CD was remastered and the dynamics are even less than that of the original LP.

Vinyl mastering techniques had a lot to do with creating a groove that was traceable by the average consumer gear of that day - and decrease artifacts like inner groove distortion, sibilance, etc. The techniques used and things like the amount of high frequencies and dynamic range of drum hits did progress as time went on.