Comments on: Problems with the Mac promised land

Apple pitches the Mac as the anti-Windows PC that "just works." What happens when it doesn't?

[tc816]

What a surprise...

I own both Mac and Pc since years (under MacOS, Windows & Linux) and use them professionally.

Both have problems.
Both do crash.
Both have pros and cons.
Only Mac freaks can disagree.

Main Pc plus: hardware and software diversity / choice.
Main Mac plus: design.

The rest is marketing and endless freak discussions.
End of the story.

[duggerdm]

One sane opinion.

Extremely well said amid the various cheer leader responses.

[BoardJIVE]

Your so off base...

I have been using Windows since before 1.x and guess what, it's
always been tolerable but never a great experience.

Two points. Firstly, Windows has gotten WAY to big and
unwieldy for a consumer OS. For novice users and grandma, it's
black magic. I have been supporting WIndows for 2 decades and
I still see customers who have been using it for years still
struggle with daily tasks. It's not as easy to use as everyone
makes it out to be. My daughter STILL has to help her
grandmother with all the steps to pull photos into her new
machine every time she tries to use it.

Second point. I started using Mac's about 4-5 years ago and
where it kills Windows is the out-of-the-box experience. You
take it out, turn it on and use it. Plug in a camera, it sees it,
pulls the photos into iPhoto and your done. Macs are not
polluted with (as Mossberg puts it) crap-ware. I spent 2 months
getting my mothers new Compaq stabilized. To this day, she
still struggles with all the clicks and terminology needed to just
use it.

Closing.. Mac's aren't perfect. Leopard time machine is broke
even with 10.5.1 (that REALLY hacks me off!) but, for the
average consumer, Mac's are a better out-of-the-box
experience. If Jobs doesn't mind his store, Apple's own success
will take them down just like all the big players.

For now, Macs still win hands down for use-it and not worry
about it experiences. It sounds like the author of this articles
spends to much time reading and talking and not enough time
in the trenches in BOTH environments understanding the real
issues. I run my business on Macs and support both worlds. He
should to...

[bemenaker]

The camera point is the worst argument you could have made.

When was the last time that you plugged a camera into XP? What happens, a window to browse your pictures pops up plain and simple. Nothing more too it. XP talks to almost every camera out there. It is a known fact that XP talks to more cameras than Macs. There is no problem seeing pics from a camera in XP, and never has been.

Next time you try to make an argument, pick one of relevancy.

As far as a simpler interface, yeah, macs are dumbed down a little more, to make it simpler, and I do agree for most users, that is better.

[ittesi259]

Before the flames begin, let me say

I find this article very well written. The fact remains that crap happens with computers and there's just no way around it. I have an iMac and a Windows XP laptop, generally I don't have issues with either, and when I do I know where to go for help. The marketing campaign from Apple kinda threw mud on their eye, but the number of people with Leopard issues is probably pretty small, their just a very vocal bunch (lots of whom had all kinds of OS X hack style custom programs that got broke like Apple said it would). But while you can cure ugly (I love the looks of my iMac), you can't cure stupid. Things I saw on both MS and Apple support forums from so called power users...."How can I revert back to <Tiger/XP> from <Leopard/Vista>, I don't have/can't find my previous install CD's and I didn't back up." I believe these 2 things would solve most people's problems.

Platforms have issues, show me one that doesn't and I'm gonna ask you if you've ever used it.

[Ilgaz]

At least Apple has an excuse, Leopard is really,really complex switch

I am not one of those "fan" people who seems to love
everything Apple does and acts like a cult member rather than
a customer.

In fact, I have already flamed Apple for rushing an Operating
System. I have purchased a family license and it is my right.

If you look at deeper parts of OS which Apple can't advertise to
iPod userbase, you can be more understanding to its problems.

First, moving to pure 64bit is a huge deal. Implementing a
Framework complex as DTRace which is intended for enterprise
workstations and mainframe like servers and making it
transparent to user is another big deal. Enabling ACL by default
to a userbase which didn't even have "users" back 6 years ago
is another thing.

The problem with Vista is: It is just another XP. Leopard
compares to previous OS X as much as Windows 2000
compared to Windows 95.

There are problems with Leopard but none of them seems non
fixable. An important thing is, Flame Apple on comments etc.
but don't forget to report issues to them. It is really easy
(bugreporter.apple.com) and they really care.

[bemenaker]

What?

OS X was designed to be 64 bit from the begining. It was shoehorned back to 32 bit, and it's always been hybrid. Taking it to pure 64 bit should have made life easier on Apple not harder. From what I have read about the OS, the move from 10.4 to 10.5 sounds more like Win 2k to Win XP, (Win 5.0 to Win 5.1), not 2k from 95. The only thing Apple has ever done on that magnitude was os9 to os10.

Using user accounts with varying permissions is purely a user level training issue, and you see that happening in Vista as well, and it's not too difficult to do in an OS. It's been in Unix, Linux, Next, BeOS, WinNT, OS2, and others for years and years and years.

[capernicous2]

17" MACBookPro

Mine is only two years old and the power button is wearing out. It stays semi stuck down? Any body else have this trouble and how to fix it?

[Vegaman_Dan]

You, sir, need to buy a new laptop.

I have a customer currently who has a 17" MacBook Pro that is just one month out of warranty and had the misfortune of spilling coffe on the keyboard. The system works just fine, mind you. No damage to the system board, LCD, etc. It's just the keyboard.

$160 diagnostic fee, plus shipping to and from Apple ($230 total) that is non-refundable. Repair quote from Apple?

$1950.00

For a keyboard.

Oh, and add that #230 diag fee / shipping on there too.

For a keyboard.

Apple simply didn't have any other repair price available. Since it's out of warranty, they called it a major flat fee replacement and.. yeah.

Needless to say the customer isn't happy. They demanded to have someone else work on it. Sorry, only Apple authorized service centers and that's the price quote for it. Since it's out of warranty, they will be going to a non-Apple approved site to get just the keyboard replaced.

Oh, and the price the customer paid for the laptop new? $1979.00.

Needless to say the customer is not happy and has been blasting to everyone within earshot about how horrible their Apple experience has been. That makes me wonder what sort of impression that gives to people who are on the fence for deciding what sort of system they want to buy. My company is prohibited from advising the customer on alternative options or opinions on one OEM from another when customers ask what they should buy. We service whatever is given to us by going to the approved service provider.

In your case where you need a new power button, it would be far cheaper to buy a used machine on eBay or find a third party provider. Unless you have the AppleCare warranty (expensive), then you are pretty much out of luck.

[Penguinisto]

did something jam the button?

A bit of disassembly should tell whether or not your troubles stem from something as simple as a bit of dirt or somesuch keeping the button stuck...

/P

[dm66]

why use the power button

Do you use the power button a lot?

I've had my Macbook Pro for almost a year now and have used the power button maybe 10 times.

Close the lid...sleep
Open the lid...awake
System update...reboot
power button???

[hal1999]

Where's the meat?

You don't really give any objective data to support your
hypothesis that Mac's are as problem prone as PC's running
windows. In fact, surveys and anecdotal reports indicate that
Mac's are more reliable than their PC counterparts. Speaking for
myself, I have used both Mac's and PC's extensively over many
years for both personal and business purposes. My Mac almost
never crashes and it is a pleasure not to have to deal with
antivirus software. Also, the Mac is much more plug and play
with peripherals such as scanners and printers than is the PC
running windows. The Mac starts-up faster, it is easier to
uninstall software, it is easier to find files, I don't have to deal
with the dreaded Microsoft activation when I change my
computers configuration, and there is no registry to deal with.
There is no question that in my experience and in the
experience of my friends the Mac is a far superior system with
fewer problems than competing systems and with superior
performance.

[fixwhatsbroke]

No problems.

Haven't had any problems with Leopard. I can't help but wonder
if people are just talking about it just find something to talk
about. There are no problems in the promised land here. Apple
has delivered. And it's probably the first truly "wow" upgrade to
OS X since it first came out.

I am greatly impressed with the functionality of Spaces, the date
and address popups and cross-functionality in Mail and the
dimmed finds in Safari. Tighter grids and "always open in this
view" are extremely welcome and the Coverflow option to rifle
through snapshots is outstanding.

Computers don't organize your desk for you.

Love the point that if the TV crashes - there's gonna be
problems.

[nogoodloginsleft]

HUH?

Doesn't Microsoft have better ways of spending their marketing dollars?

[setgo]

NEVER had a virus... EVER!

I have three Macs and I have been using a Mac since 1987 and I have never had a virus. NEVER. So write or say what you will but I'm here to stay.

[fair_game]

NEVER had a virus...EVER!

I have been using PC's since 1985. I've never had a virus either. I've run anti-virus programs for the last decade on my various machines, and it has never reported finding a virus. Am I to conclude viruses don't exist? MAC's have no built in immunity. All software is vulnerable. Good for Apple for gaining market share, but as the number of mahcines go up, beware, you will need to run anti-virus software too.

[GreySkies01]

How would you know?

If you don't run any virus protection, how do you know if you have a virus or not? Do you run network sniffing software to see all the packets coming in and out of your Mac to ensure everything is good? You Mac could be one of the millions of zombies around today, and you wouldn't know it. Being part of a Botnet doesn't mean your computer is so slow that you can't use it. Sending e-mail takes very little processing power. Sending malicius network traffic to Root DNS servers, you wouldn't even know your computer was doing anything.

Don't get me wrong... They are no were near as many viruses/worms/trojans out for MACS. But that doesn't mean there is anything special about the system that prevents it. The more people start using MACS and Linux, the more people will start exploiting it.

[zunezrok]

Macs suck

I had a mac and i had horribble security issues. My pc running on vista ultimate runs with perfection! You all need to admit that macs are bad and pc's are not!

[swiggins]

you lie like a rug

Security issue?? What, . . are you trying to hack into the
pentagon or something?? Please. I have been using macs for
about 9 years now and have NEVER gotten a virus. Sure, I am
careful, I run anti-virus software and don't CLICK on SUSPECT
links, but a lot of my friends are way less careful than myself
and have had NO problems. I do feel however that since the
ipod boom their quality control has slipped a bit, so that I am
not happy about. I LONG for the day when NOBODY used macs,
things were much simpler for all of us true mac fans, and rarely
did we come across unhappy users.
By the way, my favorite gaming console is the 360 and I use a
windows based p.c. for gaming, . . I'm not stupid, but for
everything else, it's my mac all the way.

[reagan0]

Brilliant Post, Sparky

Your use of reverse psychology is stunning.

[davidwb45011]

Apple Mostly Keeps Its Promise

Apple *does* set itself above Windows and that promise is
mostly kept. In the Windows world I quickly realized that *no
one* wanted to accept responsibility for my problems. My Dell
notebook repeatedly frozen after being put to sleep. Dell said it
was Microsoft's fault and I needed to talk to them. Microsoft said
it was Dells fault so I should call back. Dell insisted it was
Microsoft's fault but offered this suggestion: wipe my computer,
use my emergency disks to reinstall the software and see what
happened. In just minutes the tech had forgotten I'd already
done that. Then out of the blue the tech asked if I was running
Norton Anti-Virus and when I answered affirmatively (because it
was part of the crapware) he offered that my problem probably
was caused by that and he rang off. And so it went and I learned
the best solution was not to let the computer sleep.

Two years later I bought a Mac notebook and a few months
afterwards I ran into the same sleep death problem. The tech I
talked to asked a few questions, suggested that I unplug my USB
hub and try sleeping the computer. It slept, woke-up, and all
was well. We went through that cycle again and then the tech
suggested that I plug in the hub again just to make sure. When
it didn't wake up the tech told me he'd run into this hub problem
pretty frequently and suggested a few companies that made
hubs that didn't cause death on sleep. I bought one and it
worked great.

Customer support is never going to be perfect and, as the writer
noted, the Mac is still a computer. But my experience has been
that the Mac *is* a better computer and that when problems
occur Apple *does* get the job done.

[pbg3445]

The real complaint is...

...that Mac people are annoying. Superior, arrogant, smug, and
answering every computer moan with 'Get a Mac."
We are all that.
And that's what you're complaining about. Those superior,
arrogant, smug ads. And the thrust is,"oooh, you think you're just
so perfect! Well you're not!"
No we're not.

[OS11]

Mac people are just truthful...

The entire problem is Mac Users have a much better product. That is obvious... Sure, some get into who is better and whatnot, but Mac users actually DO have the upper hand since Macs are more versatile, faster and are much lower cost to use.

I'm sure there were people that used Horses and Buggies back in the day, that said: "Model A, Model T" Users are so, superior, arrogant, smug!

But guess what, most everyone drives a Car now, just like Windows users limp along with a poorly built "Mac Clone" called Windows.

Grow up! Get the best or don't complain. Macs are the machines for the people that are more knowledgeable about computing. And that's been true for about 24 years.

-

[glewtion]

Substance?

How is it that you can write an article like this and not cite
specific examples. "Tech gossip" is even more ridiculous than
celebrity gossip. Of COURSE the Mac is a computer. Of COURSE
it has some problems. Is this NEWS? The article cites that
Windows has so many problems - and has had them for so long
- that people are now used to them. So what am I to conclude
from that comparison? That Windows is the same as Mac
because it's sucked for a longer period of time? I'm willing to be
objective, and find the Mac/Windows battle nauseatingly old at
this point, but this is just poor journalism.

[duggerdm]

Question

The story is correct. I've spent the last five years watching my brother-n-law - Ph.D. computer engineer and Mac specialist explain why Mac is better - while correcting problems with his and my wifes Macs. He also corrects my PC problems. Both have problems - but different problems. Mac advertising is creating expectations it is not fulfilling - especially in customer service - especially in warrantee service - like failing to service obvious design flaws in iBook smallest laptops that overheated. Because of Vista and MS's expanded software extortion efforts (my opinion) I will probably switch to a Mac shortly. My question - does anyone write stock market analysis software for Mac's similar to Market Browser - which doesn't? I need to have 36+ stock graphs in one window that are being continually updated. Ok, Mac fans - little help here.

[krs99]

No idea - For a unique Windows program just run Bootcamp or Parallels on th

...........

[The_Raven]

Keep trying!

We all know that the misery that is Vista would love some company, but the Mac and Max OS X is not it, folks.

[The_happy_switcher]

Perfect? No, Far superior to Windows: YES

The only problems I have ever had since switching is the occasional crash caused by Parallels. I have not had ONE glitch since upgrading to Leopard. Until Windows can provide a user experience that is free of viruses, free of spyware and rids the screen of annoying nag screens the Mac will always be the superior experience.

[Mergatroid Mania]

Duh

My XP system doesn't have any viruses, doesn't have any spyware, and I've never seen one of these "nag" screens you're referring to.

People who are stupid enough to get a virus or spyware shouldn't be allowed to use a computer anyways.

And if they do, let them use a Mac and leave the Windoze users alone.

Besides, if ever Macs should make up 90% or so of computers in use (dream on) like Windoze, you can bet all the hackers will make lots of viruses and spyware for it.

As it is, there are so few of them it's not worth the hackers time.

[Proustian]

Apple is Microsoft's smaller twin!

They both do the same thing, bundle products, make crappy operating systems. Control who uses their software.

[M C]

CNet to Krazit: Your flame bait quotient is low. Pls fix.

Everyone's probably scared for their jobs after the Gerstman fiasco.

Way to go though - this is a great start. Against your nature, but whatever gets the clicks, right?

[Timbo39]

Microsoft pays for positive "press" from Cnet

I'm so tired of stories like this from Cnet. Clearly they are so
biased on their reviews it makes one wonder if they are getting
a little "extra payola" from Microsoft for positive press.

I have been a Windows user from the beginning, and have
supported Microsoft with every new Windows version (even ME-
Yikes!) that was released. I have built systems from ground up
(not difficult at all) and have spent countless hours installing/
reinstalling drivers, software, operating systems, trying to figure
out IRQ conflicts, jumper settings (not a major issue these days)

My point is- I was tired of dealing with the constant maintenance that was needed to run a PC. It was fun for a while
in the learning days, however I now want something that "just
works". Two years ago I reluctantly switched to the Mac ( I had
been one of the Apple bashers in the past) I was under the
impression that Mac's lacked too much for me to enjoy (can't
take it apart and upgrade, lack of software, no games... blah
blah blah ) and maybe that was correct in the past, not any
more! I have found all of the software I need, that is actually
better than the PC versions I used, I have no desire to take it
apart anymore, and as far as games - I'll opt for a gaming
console for the games- that's what they're made for.

Bottom line is that my user experience has been OUTSTANDING
with a Mac. They work. So far I have not needed any drivers for
any of my other devices I've installed, the switch from Tiger to
Leopard went without ANY ISSUES! I'm not saying that it will
never have issues or need repair -after all they are just a
machine and machines do break, however the Mac is worth every
penny I paid for it. I'll never return to using a PC, even though I
have three of them in the house (now collecting dust)

Use whatever system makes you happy, if it's Windows, great, if
it's a Mac, great! Based on my experience, the Mac is better by a
landslide.

Sorry miCroNET- I mean Microsoft, I'm done.

[Vegaman_Dan]

Another CNET bias conspiracy

I don't see that CNET is biased at all. This week has been bad for Apple in general across all the media: CNET, CNN, MSNBC, The Register, etc. All had stories independant of each other about Apple issues.

And they all had stories about MS issues too.

CNET has not pulled any punches about Vista or XP. If they were truly biased or paid by Microsoft as you have claimed, it wouldn't make sense for them to have stories that are critical about MS products.

I think this is more just the conspiracy mindset at work instead.

[cefran]

Where's the beef?

The worst I saw in your article was that Apple's commercials raised unmet expectations. Unfortunately, your article did the same thing. I kept waiting to see what these terrible problems that people were having with their Macs and with Apple's tech support. If that is the best you can do, you really ought to quit wasting your readers' time with your vague discontents.