Comments on: Leopard bug identified with moving data

It's possible to lose data if you move files to a Leopard Mac, rather than copy them, and something goes wrong in the process.

[Keith A Caldwell]

Lost in the Move

This may seem like a minor deal but really I really don't think that it is. I am glad that you put this up because I would have assumed, like most people I am sure, that the source file would not be deleted until the move was completed successfully. Ouch!

I am thinking about buying a new Mac and will continue to wait a little longer to see what else turns up...

[J.G.]

Not so fast

A user must go through several erroneous actions to trigger the
exploit. You are exaggerating the seriousness.

[ncalishome]

What "erroneous actions"?

Moving files from one place to another and suffering a network/hardware failure... Where's the erroneous action?

Personal story, our NFS box was running very very slow yesterday morning and when I asked my business partner he said he was moving 30 gigs of photos off of it because he wanted to do a clean reinstall of Leopard. Had a rebooted it without asking him (which I almost did) he would have been screwed. His fault how?

[caywen123]

That's impossible

That's impossible because it's never happened to me. Also, OSX is perfectly secure because no one ever hacked me. And my logic is perfect because I don't read rebuttals.

[Penguinisto]

Not entirely unpossible... ;)

[i]"Also, OSX is perfectly secure because no one ever hacked me."[/i]

Well, no one ever managed to hack this guy, either:
http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=181502078

I can readily admit that the move thing is a pretty dumb move. I can also sit and watch as it is (very) easily patched.

Now about those 10^300 exploits and bugs in Windows that require everything just shy of overhauling the entire OS to fix... ;)

/P

[john55440]

What a low quality bugfest -nt

no text

[catch23]

BS on the 'a bit more dangerous'

What are you talking about? A 'move' is a copy/verify/delete, which is exactly like you copying then deleting.
It almost seems like your removing some of the blame from Apple. 'What you did was risky'.

No, what Apple did was not verify, simply delete.
This is staggering incompetence that never should have gotten by QA.

[J.G.]

Missing the point

There is a fine procedure that is the default. You would have to
be careless to prefer moving to copying.

[hinyan]

I've experienced this bug

I have had many experiences of this bug - and had to recover files
from backup disks when I noticed they weren't copied properly. I'd
discovered this behaviour when I moved from Windows to Mac. The
work round is "copy", "compare results" then "delete". This minor
inconvenience, however, still justifies the much more elegant and
productive OS X user interface.

[jmmejzz]

Is it just me

Is it just me but why would someone do a "move" rather then a "copy" and then verify then delete?
I have always assumed a hardware failure or a disconnect during a move could result in data loss. ****, I get that alert whenever I prematurely disconnect my iPod.

[Vegaman_Dan]

Copy, not move is sound advice

It doesn't matter what OS you're using. To be secure in your file transfers, copying and verifying the transfer was successful before deleting the source files is advisable over a blind move.

Any number of things can happen during a move process from network interruptions, HDD failure, HDD Controller issues, NIC's failing/flaking, power disruptions, or even the cat stepping on your keyboard at a bad time.

I'm somewhat surprised that Leopard would do a move without confirmation before deletion but I'm sure Apple will implement a fix for this soon enough. Sounds like a simple oversight that can be quickly remedied.

[Anon-Y-mous]

If this was Vista, there'd be 1000 negatives

I can't believe what I'm reading from the Fanbois! "Not a problem", "Just choose copy instead" "You have to disconnect the cable to cause it". If this was MS, then you'd all be calling for blood.

At least Microsoft has had this working right since Windows 3.11.... A move algorythm designed properly will always COPY the file first and on acknowledgement of successful transfer back on the source, THEN and ONLY THEN delete the source file. Like, DUH!

So was this one of the 'benefits' they got by starting with a Unix core, or just one of those superb Apple designs we hear so much about?

[ralfthedog]

Blame on both parties.

Yes, OS-X behavior described is incorrect, however anyone doing a move not a copy of critical data is a moron.

Apple will fix this bug quite fast. Even after the bug is fixed, please remember, copy not move no matter what OS you run.

[timber2005]

Editor should make the note

I'm not saying how to do your job... trust me I wouldn;t.

I think readers might agree to this more if you note that this becomes more and more of a problem with larger files. Moving a 5KB document isn't probably going to have anything break the transfer. But if you're copying your latest iMovie creation that sizes 300MB, and over a wired network might a minute to five, and thats when a power failure or something might happen.

[imacpwr]

Rule of thumb: NEVER move files on any OS..!!

Moving files from one volume to another* without copy/pasting
them is suicidal in any OS. The safest way is to copy/paste, confirm
the new copy is in order then go back and delete the original.

*example: a different hard drive, internal or external

[dminott]

Mov ing files

I've been moving files since the days of CP/M,
all the way through Vista, and I have NEVER lost a file that way. Just try moving al the data from one drive to another (as in cloning.)
I hope you're not suggesting that I copy all 30,000 files then go back and delete 30,000 files???
Face the fact, Apple has goofed.

[darthstupid]

not really

i don't think too many people would blink if vista did this. most wouldn't be surprised by vista having yet another bug...

[sanenazok]

Important to publicize

It's important to publicize these sorts of things, because just about everyone expects modern OS's to do these sorts of things impeccably. I mean, we're talking about one of the most basic file I/O operations here that better work correctly.

I for one would not move ALL my files to a new OS, but eventually I can see this impacting me. For example, I often MOVE older files from my laptop to desktop to clean up the laptop. Sure I could copy and delete, but that's a hassle beyond compare, especially if the older files are in many different folders. What if something interferes with the laptop's wireless connection or it goes into sleep mode cutting the connection in medias res? It's not that unlikely that this will happen.

I hope Apple fixes this...of course personally I don't have to worry since I'm using Windows on one and Linux on the other (but could care LESS what OS is better so don't tell me what you use or why).

[Seaspray0]

And the better OS is...

That's for you to decide for yourself what's best for you.

[Seaspray0]

Designed by humans in an imperfect world

In a perfect world, the "move" works great. It does what it's supposed to do. But, alas, this is not and the code was designed by humans. No doubt this will be patched. It could have been much worse... i.e. Windows Millenium would crash the operating system if you defragged the hard drive issue (it got patched too). It could have been better (move files using the same method windows does: copy, verify, then delete).

Code is designed by humans in an imperfect world and we just got reminded of that with this story. This will not be the last time this happens. Despite what the fanboys tell you, there is no such thing as a perfect operating system.

[GreySkies01]

May be "Risky" but the majority does it!

Since I am a MCSE, I tend to think of how long this has been a no brainer in the Windoze world, but...

I have just read through everyone saying "You should copy, verify, delete; not move!"

They of course are right.

I have also just read "It should be a no brainer basic OS function!".

They are also right.

While most people that work in the IT industry ALWAYS copy/verify/delete, their spouses, loved ones, friends, and children have a tendancy to do the easiest thing possible. MOVE. One Command, not thinking..

It's a bug.. Just like all bugs that make the news, it will be fixed. My personal opinion is that it should not have slipped through, since it is so low level. But, there have been TONS of bugs in EVERY OS that should not have slipped through.

We know about it now, so until it is patched, inform your kids not to move a movie from HD to HD until it is fixed. Or simply tell them to copy and deleted, or... Wait till you get home and you will do it until the bug is fixed.

Simple bug, simple fix (most likely), potential to cause moderate damage, esecially in the Kid, Wife, friends how just want it to work department.

Not a big deal to IT pros, just annoying that it shouldn't be there.

J.G.

[rapier1]

This is a good point

In any industry there are best practices that tend to be widely
known and, unfortunately, widely ignored. The reason they are
ignored often tends to be that they add additional steps without
an *immediately* perceived benefit. In an ideal world this can be
addressed with simple user education. Unfortunately, user
education is often a drawn out battle with, at best, variable
results. As such, it seems to me that fix of the underlying
problem is a more effective use of resources than engage in a
constant battle with uninformed users (the supply of which
seems infinite).

[b8375629]

I've done if for years...

Basically, it's called "cut-and-paste" in Windows. Never had a problem doing it. Never lost data or anything.

However, for peace of mind, "copy-and-paste" if you must...