Comments on: ATA Airlines detains passenger for using iPhone in 'airplane mode'

There may be an airplane mode switch on your mobile phone, but don't assume your airline cares whether that switch is on or off.

[Goldy67blue]

Do as you are told.

If you are told to do something on an aeroplane you DO IT. The airline is in charge of your life from the moment you step on their plane. Have some respect and do what you're told.

I bet if something did go wrong because some frivolous law wasn't enforced then everyone would sue left right and centre.

[dr_thug]

Happened to me too.

Something like this happened to me almost a year ago,when i used my Sony Ericsson P990i to listen to music and play game on an Indian Airlines Flight from Delhi to Mumbai.The flight attendant asked me to switch off the phone but i resisted saying that it was in "Flight mode".She said using a cellphone affects the navigation of the airline.I again tried explaining to her that it was just a mp3 player and not a phone right now and was more safer than the cd player of the airline that was playing some instrumental music.But she won't agree with me and i sensed a change in her tone.So i finally switched off my phone and said"Fine,I don't want the plane to reach the wrong destination due to my phone in 'Flight Mode'."

[mattsonney]

Me too -- switched airlines

This happened to me on an American Eagle flight between DC and O'Hare (blackberry not iPod, but same issue of using airplane mode and an ornery flight attendant not being smart enough to understand). Then I saw someone else get the same treatment on another American flight. The flight attendants were really rude about it, too. So, I switched airlines. United's flight attendants don't let anyone break the rules, but they're polite and seem to understand what it means when you switch it to airplane safe mode. I think an airline could make a killing with business travellers if they advertised greater flexibility on this issue (within the letter of the law, of course).

[TJSafari]

Ipod Touch

What are they going to do t people with the new Ipod Touch MP3 player. It looks just like the iphone.

I fly in Africa alot and you cannot have your cell phone on evenin "airplane" mode. They make that clear in all onboard announcements.

It is silly nonsense.

TJ

The T. Jeffrey Safari Company
www.tjsafari.com
Toll Free: 866-470-0470
Fax: [phone]
Be sure to check out our new blog at: http://www.tjsafari.com/blog.cfm

[Libbywilder]

It Wasn't a She

Agree with all your comments regarding IQ, power, sheer stupidity -- but the first five comments I read refer to "waitress" or "she."

The story refers to the flight attendant as "he." Believe me, stupidity is not gender specific.

[Jubi Lee]

It has nothing to do with interference

Cell phones don't cause interference with airline equipment, that's a fact. The airlines have lobbied the FCC to keep this law intact for their own convenience, they just don't feel like babysitting inconsiderate people who can't use a phone respectfully. Plus they'd rather sell you their own seatback phone service at $5 a minute.

[Dean VanDruff]

Test Schmest

Here's a test. Put a plane on a tarmac, and pierce it through with cellular traffic from high-power towers, nearby WiFi and cellular use in a terminal, and inside from those who just forget to turn their phones off (5-10 per flight?). Walla, you have nearly every flight, every day; including during take-off and landing, and no "interference" found after millions of "tests". The whole "testing" thing is a canard, planes are saturated with cellular all the time they are near the public and/or cities. Having a few more people on/off, that's going to make a difference?

[Cmccammon]

partially true

That's almost right, the wireless carries also want the rule enforced because you can actually cause problems for the radios on the ground as your phone flies by at 500 MPH switching from tower to tower. and it is a fact that the spectrum the digital cell phones use will not harm plane's electronics.
2-cents

[Simba7]

re: MythBusters

Ya, I seen that episode. The only frequencies were the lower GSM bands (I think 850 and 900MHz)

"Testing inside of the Faraday cage

They first tested out their spectrum analyzer with a CD player, iPod mini, and a portable game, all of which barely registered on the spectrum analyzer. A cellphone, however, showed up as a big spike.

Next, Grant monitored the needle on the VOR navigation system while he simulated various cellphone signals. The GSM signal showed no needle deflection, even when amplified 1000x. A 800Mhz signal, however, showed major needle deflection, as did 850Mhz and 900Mhz signal."

But.. That is with NO shielding. Here's WITH the shielding inside a Hawker 800XP.

"Hawker 800XP tests

They switched to a real plane, a Hawker 800XP provided by Tom Benvenuto, VP Flight Operations, Sunset Aviation. The 800XP is a plush 8-person corporate jet filled with top-of-the-line LCD electronics. Even though they couldn't fly the plane while testing due to legal issues, they were able to test with the plane on the ground.

Grant started off with the 800Mhz signal that caused problems in the Faraday cage test. There was no interference with the 800Mhz signal or any other signal they tested."

So.. For the results..

"BUSTED. The final explanation is that, even though the airplanes appear to be well-shielded against cellphone interference, there are so many different electronics in a cockpit, as well as so many different cellphones constantly coming out, the FAA doesn't want to do the necessary testing."

[Jim_Hall]

Several Issues

There are several issues with the listed testing program. How many of us out there have (or still have) 850 - 900 Mhz laptops ?? I do...

If that laptop was leaking interference (and most do) at the 850 -900 level and if the aircraft in test had a wire feeding a computer that was also looking for a signal in this range - you would cause a momentary glitch in the aircraft computer, that would either switch to the backup processor or sensor, set a fault code for the maintenance people - or it could be so bad that the system would fail.

I also would not have used a newer corp jet. Failing wiring shielding is normally seen in older 'transport' type aircraft that have many flights on their clocks - and seldom on corp jets since they don't fly as much. They should have used an old airline B727 or something similar and they might have spotted this.

Bottom line is it can/does happen - but it has to be in the right situation with perfect timing, positioning, etc. to result in a change in aircraft control or changes in engine settings, navigation, etc.

Financially - no one would want to pay to have every single device proof tested and certified. And where would the cost end up ?? Ticket prices.

So how do you keep it from happening - require people to turn them off.

[DaisyD.]

Silly?

" But we're talking about airlines and the government, so silly
things happen all the time."

And some not so silly things too - as in the recent death of
Carol Ann Gotbaum at Sky-Harbor Airport. For too long the
airlines have been using bogus info. about cell-phones
interfering w/the flight deck. Why not try telling the truth for a
change? Ban cell phone use if you want - but don't infantalize
consumers and strip them of rights in the name of 'security'.

[dmm]

How do you enforce "flight mode?"

What is to stop someone from hacking their display so it says "flight mode" when it is not, in fact, in flight mode? Or, even easier, just changing the mode every time the flight attendant asks? Unfortunately, a lot of people are lying weasels, so the easiest and simplest solution for the airlines is for them to insist that you turn it off altogether.

Of course, this begs the question as to whether cell phones are a hazard. The answer, of course, is that they are not a hazard. However, they are undeniably a HUGE source of potential annoyance. OTOH, they can be very useful, especially if your flight is delayed. I've been on flights where the captain announced a delay (loud groans), and then told us that he had the plane on manual so we could go ahead and use our cell phones for a while (happy sighs, smiling). Probably total BS, but great PR.

[dpierce42]

How do you enforce any of the electronics rules?

Most laptops have wifi transmitters, and some have cellular transmitters. Just about everything has a bluetooth transmitter. If you accidently press a button on your car's keychain remote, you're sending out a signal. In 10 years, everything you buy will expect to be connected to a network of some sort, and the airlines are in the dark ages on the matter -- they want to plug their ears and hope this Internet-thing just blows over.

The most amazing thing is the typical Flight Attendant's mental association between *seeing* the device and believing it's *on*. Just because you put it away, that's proof it's off? It's safe now because nobody is playing with the keyboard and it's in a pocket instead?

The thing is, the guy who has his PDA out and playing with it is probably a knowledgeable power-user (in relative terms) and smart enough to turn the radio off. It's the guy who drops his cellphone in his pocket and doesn't think twice about it all day -- the phone that the FA will never see and/or care about -- that will be left on.

Using the "if they don't see it, they're ignorant" philosphy, I keep my phone hidden on the flight. I control the MP3 player thru the button the headset. If I want to watch video, I drop my Treo in a case designed for an iPod, and the FAs don't know the difference.

But the best thing you can do -- I've done this twice now with good effect -- is find the lead FA when boarding the flight (she's usually working 1st or business) -- pull her aside and ask if it's ok to use your PDA to read a book if you use flight mode and keep the "phone part turned off". They normally look freaked out by the question, but after a few seconds to process the heady calculus, smile and agree that it'll be just fine. Get her *name*. If any of the peons bug you, tell them to see the lead FA, who approved the device.

[Conncajun]

Ban against cellphones even after plan has landed

For the first time last week, I was forbidden from talking on my blackberry cellphone even after the plan had landed and the cabin door was open. I was told that this rule has been in existence for 'a long time' and that the state police would arrest me and 'people had been injured' as a result of non-compliance.

Anyone else experience this new restriction?

[m0cleary]

Re

I have run into this when traveling to Canada from the US. It has something to do with using phones while within an international check points, so I do not think that it is a new thing. I for one am able to enjoy the extra 10 mins without a phone and don't need to hear passengers call everyone they know to let them know "I just landed, we are still taxiing."

[kobolila]

been there

If the airlines policy clearly states that 'airplane mode" still can not be used than I would have to side with them.

However the lack of clarity and or equal enforcement in other areas as well is becoming a nightmare - especially when you are stuck on a LONG flight and you are deprived of something to distract you from the time and uncomfortable seating.

On a recent SW airlines (whom a normally love) trip from Chicago to Hartford I had a encounter with a flight attendent before takeoff who opposed my using noise-cancelling earbuds (much less cumbersome than headphones; easier to pack)despite the fact that the mp3 player was clearly not on.

When I pointed out that they noise cancelling (which the in flight magazine states is approved) she stated that they were not an approved model and insisted that I remove them.

One might say that it is for my best interest, but they do not restrict people, like my wife, from placing devices like 'ear-planes' in their ears which totaly leave them deaf.

MY flight was already delayed, the extra aggravation was not something I needed.

[gordonmoebius]

ATA's Employees

Sadly, ATA isn't the airline it was before the bankruptcy. The best
and brighest left when the debtors' committee took over and put
accountants in charge of flight operatons. The place is a mess and
most of mid-level management and people who have hired on
since, like the flight attendants, are 'tards.

[mcrain00]

Your Misinformed about ATA Employees

No new flight attendants have been hired since ATA filed for Chapter 11 Banckruptcy in October of 2004. So the same ATA Flight Attendants that you commend are still the same one who are there now. Additionally, the ATA policy regarding cell phone use while in "Airplane Mode" is exactly the same as it was before filing for bankruptcy as it is now. So nothing has changed at ATA, only the technology of the Apple Iphone is the new factor in this scenario causing the confrontations between unruly passangers unwilling to obey the airline's company policy directed by the FAA and disobey a crewmember's instructions which constitutes "interferance with a crewmember's duties" which clearly is a violation of federal law. This passanger is very lucky he was not arrested!

[Cmccammon]

Laptops now have cellular and wifi built in.

So now MY laptop can't be used in flight either it has a AT&T UMTS modem and wifi built in just like the iphone. The airline industry needs to clarify what you can and can't use and I think regardless of lost tempers and miss communications that customer was shown some poor customer service.
2-cents.

[Robmark1949]

Way better idea than calling the cops

If someone ever DID try to talk on their cellphone next to me, I have a much better idea than what the flight attendant tried on this poor passenger.

I wrote about it at http://www.jetwhine.com/2007/08/cell-phones-on-airliners-one-man-plans-to-fight-back/

Enjoy. And I still want an iPhone too!

[e-mail]

[Jim_Hall]

It is a real problem

Systems Engineers and Airlines are very concerned about interference to electrical/electronic systems in the aircraft from portable devices. Current aircraft use sensors and computers that are not only effected radio signals (such as cell phones) - but are also concerned about signals generated by portable devices that contain micro-processors (like the IPhone, laptops, game devices, etc). Aircraft wiring and associated devices are shielded to prevent interference from external signal sources - but as with everything these do break down over time and sometimes allow signals to enter. Portable device designers/manufactures are also required to build devices to eliminate signals that might escape their device while operation - those too break down over time or can become disabled/disturbed when the user opens the device for service, upgrades, etc.

Design engineers have run and recorded many real-world instances where a portable device's signal has been picked up through shielding - hence the FAA Regulations on the topic.

Example: The Fuel Quantity computer in a Boeing aircraft operates at 300 mhz and has many wires attached to the sensors in the fuel tanks in a constantly flexing wing. Many older laptops and games operate at that frequency - and if the fuel system wiring isn't shielded perfectly - and/or the laptop is allowed to transmit from poor case shielding, the result is fuel gages displaying incorrectly - or blanking completely. Or, something that doesn't effect the operation of the aircraft, but the error does effect our computer that results in a very expensive computer being removed and tested to confirm a possible real fault.

Most newer aircraft use fly-by-wire technology that eliminates all cable control - meaning that something like an engine or flight control is totally controlled via simple shield wiring running right under your seat or in the sidewall panel just feet from your device. Even when a device is produced per FCC transmit/interference regulations (look at the little sticker on the back of the device) - it is still very possible for it to leak interference into an aircraft system in close proximity.

We would prefer that no one operate any device while in flight - because that's the only way to be truly safe.

And to the folks that want us to wait until an aircraft crashes before we take action - that's not REALLY what you want is it ???? I didn't think so....

[Cowboyinbrla]

Oh really?

How, exactly, is it that watching a digital movie on a portable electronic device is unsafe, but the video screens used to show the safety videos and the in-flight movies, which use exactly the same technology, are safe?

Listening to an MP3 player is dangerous, but listening to the (airline-provided) satellite radio signal pumped all through the plane to each seat is safe?

If the airlines and the FAA truly wanted to protect planes without unduly inconveniencing passengers, they could do so easily by (a) identifying all the frequencies which aircraft equipment use and which aren't able to be properly shielded, (b) working with UL or someone else to certify which devices do not interfere with those frequencies, and (c) only allow those devices which are certified to be used onboard. There's a huge spectrum of frequencies out there and to ban EVERYTHING that might use any part of any of them, on the grounds that some airline part "might" use that same frequency, is the lazy and stupid approach.

I think the airlines (at least, the dinosaur carriers) would rather ban personal electronics because they're trying to figure out ways to charge for access to on-board entertainment. Why allow people to play a video for free when you can charge them $4.99 to watch a movie on the seatback?

[mcrain00]

ATA's Mandated FAA Policy-No "Airplane Mode"

While some airlines, including Southwest Airlines, do allow their passengers to use some electronic devices that have an "airplane mode", ATA Airline's POI (The FAA official assigned to ATA Airlines) will not approve it for this airline. His reasoning is that it becomes very complicated during the course of our duties, to confirm which devices actually have an aircraft mode without taking an Electro Techno 101 class.

This passenger was obviously looking for a free ticket by misrepresenting how the Flight Attendant handled this issue. The ATA Flight Attendant was very professional in the way he approached the passenger, and was following rules as mandated by ATA Airline's POI. The passenger's comments to the media were not descriptive of what really took place.

ATA Airline's continues to request from the FAA official to waive these rules on "airplane mode", but his point is, does everyone understand what electronic devices have the "airplane mode" on them?

So is ATA Airline's POI behind the times in estimating everyone's familiarity with these new devices, or is Southwest Airline's POI simply a "yes" man to what their management wants?

[smartial]

iPhone in airplane mode should never pose a problem

The issue is not technical but training the flight attendants to serve the clients who make the airline viable. With the recent bankcrupcy filing from ATA, this flight attendant will no longer have this problem.

As it stands, there is no standard in the usage of cell phone with the radio transmitting set to off during flight. Most airlines have a common sense approach to the subject and allow passengers to use their cell phone on "airplane" mode above 10,000 feet and on cell phone mode during taxi after landing. To my knowledge, this has never created any problems in relation to the flight instruments and communication.

Common sense is not something that can be acquired and I suspect that a serious lack of training and understanding existed at ATA.

[dgianna]

FCC Regulation, NOT an FAA regulation

It is NOT an FAA regulation that prohibits mobile phone use on aircraft - it is an FCC one. It always has been, and has never been a directive of the FAA.

[penguinv22]

I flew South African Airlines 3 weeks ago. There in-flight magazine and pre-flight announcements say specifically that iphones, blackberrys and smartphones, even in airplane mode, are expressly prohibited. I tried engaging the flight attendant in a conversation about why and got no where.

Flew on US Airways a few weeks ago...on one flight the flight attendent made it very clear that iphones, even in airplane mode were not allowed, while on the return flight the made no such disclaimer, and on flight attendent even peaked over my shoulder for a few seconds to watch the movie on my Iphone! Sounds like a non-policy!