Comments on: Maine: A MacBook for each student in grades 7-12
The state's Department of Education commits to providing a notebook to every public-school student from middle school to high school, purchasing tens of thousands of the Apple laptops.
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but then i figured out that i can put the .apps on a flashdrive :) and now i just use a 8GB flashdrive with all my personal apps like office 2008 insteada openoffice
For American to prosper, Maine's example must be followed.
So, to all the trolls, please, just recognize the big picture and that that big picture is a very good thing for all!
Thanks Jim for a great report!
Now these klids will think that Apple makes real computers, not just cute toys. That anything that you can do on a Mac is at all worth while. Sad. None of these kids will ever build anything that can scan teh universe, diagnose an illness, launch a space station or solve global warming. They will be able to make cute pictures oif their cats and think that is a significant contribution to humanity. What a waste of a generation of students.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-5835333-7.html?tag=mncol
http://blogs.computerworld.com/london_stock_exchange_to_abandon_failed_windows_platform
...and y'all wonder why Folks aren't automatically sucking in Windows purchases anymore...
KieranMullen
[CNET editors' note: Promotional link removed]
The reason why is simple: If you want to learn about other operating systems specifically, you install them, you crawl around in them... and you do it on bare-bones hardware. Most classes that teach at that level usually have desktops with removable hard disk carriages - each student has a hard disk assigned that he or she works on. You definitely do not use laptops for this purpose.
Apple has a ton of educational software, and (thanks to the FINK libraries) has access to most of Linux' educational software catalog as well. Combined, this pretty much dwarfs any catalog of Windows-only software insofar as education apps are concerned.
First, you use a car to drive around but you don't start driving around until you learn to use the car. So, to say it's not about learning to use an o/s is a misnomer.
They should not be learning how to use a computer that has such a tiny market share. When they graduate and go looking for work, does the school think their employer will be using Macs? The odds are against it. If I was a parent, I would be demanding my kid learn on something running the most common o/s.
Sure, a Mac can run both Apple and MS O/Ss but the fact is that the schools are not going to bother installing two O/Ss on these computers. Also, teaching kids how to install multiple O/Ss on a computer may be a good lesson for a computer class, but not for students doing their daily work.
And, what of those parents who have already purchased a Windows laptop for their kids? Are they just supposed to shelve this expensive compatible tool they have purchased just so their kid can learn to use a Mac?
What a waste of money. Might as well give them Linux laptops.
Don't kid yourself, kids graduating with a lifelong knowledge of Windoze have a better chance at most jobs than kids without that experience.
Most kids these days (that aren't in Special Ed or hadn't ever seen a computer before) already know how to do basic tasks on an OS by the time they leave Kindergarten.
Oh really? Have we forgotten that "Apples for the students" program back in the 80's, that increased the Mac market share by about 0.01%
One of the most successful things Apple has done in the past ten years or so is make their software more compatible with the mainstream Windows OS and with Microsoft's dominating Office suite. This makes it very possible for users of Apple PCs to interact with machines using other operating systems. Although engineers using CAD likely won't use Macs any time soon, I think it's decreasingly accurate to say that Windows at work necessarily means Windows at home.
Mac has come a long way since then. They totally transformed the brand. PC makers are losing the youth market and they know it.
Youth market? Who cares. They'll use PCs when they grow up just like the generations before them.
Apple have always had a strong presence in education but have always failed to make the transition to the corporate environment.
In laptops it is much higher.
Go on any campus, mac books are more common then any other brand of laptop.
Thank you for pointing out that windows users are too stupid to use anything else.
I would NOT want to be the IT administrator in charge of a bunch of teens with Macbooks. I think this is a great initiative, but I wonder if they even considered Linux.
OTOH, Macs are not as hard to administer as you may think - it's all BSD in there, and w/o sudo rights, the student won't be able to do too awful much (and preparation for the next kid? Wiping the student's home directory and Applications directory, replacing the latter with the std. pile of apps is pretty straightforward, no?)
Does Linux come ready to use right out of the box?
Does Linux require individual set-up by an IT administrator?
Does Linux have a host of tech support ready to assist in a school environment?
Does Linux support Pod Casting of lessons from universities right out of the box?
As for IT administrator in charge of a bunch of teens, there will always be a few hacker-teens around but the rest are just eager to get work done to earn a good grade for the next step, getting into college. OS/X also has user access control like that of UNIX, why is there a problem?
A school system is different than a corporate environment and is different than your own in-home environment.
" (most schools have in-house IT support, and most major distros these days -Ubuntu, RHEL, and SuSE- have paid support options). "
It is apparent you don't work for a school district. School districts have IT departments meant to support the school's infrastructure *only*. And that means typically a team of 5-10 people for a larger school district. They don't maintain a help desk that you can call or go to. It is also one of the first departments to get hit by the budget ax. You could not possibly be suggesting this same team of 5-10 people suddenly be responsible for 2000+ extra systems on a platform they cannot support (OS X) without being forced to send the units in to an Apple center for repair. That's... ridiculous.
As for the linux distros- that's nice, but again, they don't have call centers that are free and you're now asking the school district to pay even more for support? How much more money are you going to expect them to pay for this product?
For a 'free' product, it sure gets highly expensive fast. The school would need to hire additional staff to support this and that would come at the expense of teachers who are already being laid off. I'm not sure I'd want to toss out education of the students in favor of them having a free laptop to use for their classes... without teachers.
Individual schools OTOH usually have anywhere from 0-a dozen or more, depending on the size of the school (e.g. the ones with "0" are in, say, small elementary schools with no classroom infrastructure to speak of).
"As for the linux distros- that's nice, but again, they don't have call centers that are free"
Neither does Microsoft - where do you think a goodly chunk of that licensing money goes? ;)
(and if the school or district has an SA or EA license, then support credits are often sold/itemized separately).
The main sources of viruses are: iffy websites, people downloading programs that are iffy, and people downloading things off p2p networks.
Now, I do ALL THREE OF THOSE THINGS, and I very rarely get a virus.
Unfortunately, you need to deal with a school district to understand their challenges. As a parent, I deal with them day in and day out. As a volunteer, specifically in the IT area, I see first hand what happens in our local district in California.
Some districts have a staff of 2-3 technicians/IT/do-everything people followed by a staff of 5 or 6 parent volunteers who can help when they have time. The rest are teachers who need specific things done to a set of machines and they cannot wait for the 3 technicians. When the teachers cannot handle it (most cannot), they will ask for help from class parents or parent volunteers. These schools try to be as self-sufficient. Linux, unfortunately, will be beyond the capabilities of 95% of our teachers. They can learn but they need to focus on teaching and creating teaching material, not system administration and maintenance and set-up.
Unless you know of a version of Linux that I can install on my PC or Mac and it instantly recognizes my WiFi and can auto-detect and set-up mail accounts and allows quick security administrative UI, it is a no-go from the get-go.
All that said, now we come to hardware problems.
Without naming brands and OS, certain "cheaper" machines do not last. They are often breaking down at the two-year mark and by the third year, they are close to "junk" status. Kids are normally very good with the machines and loaners, you will be surprised by how responsible 99% of them are. Unfortunately, the wear and tear do wear them out. These machines do also lock up more often than we like but with a few old spare on-hand, it is just a swap and dump routine. When they crash, and they do crash often, it is often a simple reboot and on occassion, about 5% of the time, we have to reinstall everything from scratch.
If a few volunteer parents have any say, we would actually recommend certain other brand of machines that can run any number of OS on the market. These machines are reliable, tend to last more than five years under intensive daily use in business (software product development) environment. They are also easy to set up and easy to manage. About 30% of our kids already own these machines at home and some bring their laptops to school to use alongside friends who use the school machines.
When it comes to "live streaming", you are avoiding the issue. Go on-line and look up university pod casting and you will find it is very popular amongst educational institutions. Many of our high school students attending local junior colleges are taking such cases, via pod cast. They load them up on their machines or iPods and use them at home or on field trips. The pod casts subjects spread from Physics to Math to LAnguage art to Geology to CS. Where are the live streaming of such subjects that a student can "own" and carry around?
THis is why I say it is not just someone believing in the potential of a technology and then run around looking for solution to address each issue that comes up. That is a start-up mentality not applicable to a school.
A school focuses on teaching and the goal is all about getting the teaching material out to teachers so they can run their classes for the students. They need solutions that can do that NOW and at minimum cost and with minimum problems. If there is an OS or a machine that approaches that ideal solution, it is what they will consider.
From a volunteer's perspective from one state, one local school district, limited to one segment of our school population, I will say that Maine made a good choice. The Macbooks will likely make their short-handed staff a bit happier in the long run.
One of the main advantages of macs is that you can create one image that will work on all macs, drivers are not an issue that means they can image all laptops they buy with the same image no matter what year or model the laptop is.
Just like when we all where younger and the school charge us for books we destroyed. School cost one book $100 cost to kids parents for said book that needs replaced $200.
With things that belong to someone else? Precious diamonds, treat them well! (sing this with me) I have NEVER seen a kid intentionally break something unless (and this is the one exception) the person whose stuff they break has gone OUT OF THEIR WAY to **** the child off, and they are not thinking clearly when they break the thing in question.
I broke a game controller one time when my friend did that when I was 12.... didn't even realize I was holding the controller so tightly that I actually BROKE IT IN HALF WITH ONE HAND.
Of course they will be in good shape when returned cause in the fine print the school will charge a parent double the cost of the machine if a kid damages. So the school buys them for lets say $500 then the kid breaks it so they charge close to the retail value of the machine to the family $1,000.
Just like when we all where younger and the school charge us for books we destroyed. School cost one book $100 cost to kids parents for said book that needs replaced $200.
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No school does that anymore. I had a few books that 'went through the wringer' in school, and my parents did NOT have to pay twice the value of the book for 'kid damages'.... they just paid the value of the book (or in some cases, the value of the NEW EDITION of the book that the school was buying anyway!) and done.
If these schools tried to charge these kids twice the value of something..... LAWSUIT TIME! That is ILLEGAL in most states, and if the schools haven't been slapped for it, it is because no one has been willing to bring a case to court yet.
Every kid in public school in the 80's used Apple II computers in school. Did not keep any of us from using PC's in college and buying PC's after graduating college.
PC's were used in professional jobs, while Apples were only used in secondary schools. The same still applies today.
I'm sure that these kids will NOT want to use Macs when they graduate because, well ummm once you start using it you realize what a toy it is compared to Windows.
The rest is just fevered fanboy fantasy
We had a MAC when I was growing up and I have never purchased a MAC. I had to use a MAC in a few classes in college and hated every second of it."
I know how you feel. Sometimes I have to use my "Pc" and hate it with its clunky and ugly interface, horrid system colors, and constant fear of getting it infected with malware.
OK son, good interview. You seem to have good grades, and we are definately hiring. Unfortunately, I see you have been doing all your work on a Mac. For this position we require people with experience using XXX software along with YYY and ZZZ on MS WIndows 7 (or XP or Vista or whatever).
Out of the 25 candidates I have interviewed you're the only one with no experience in Windows. Our entire office uses Windows machines, and all the software we use runs on those machines. I would recommend you take a course on using Windoes and if available the same software we use here. But, at least learn Windows and come back when you've finished the course. We may still have a job for you.
Do you mean Word or Excel? Good point because they are not available on the Mac. Now if you mean some piece of vertical market software used in a specific industry then that is probably not taught in the high schools.
I had an odd relationship with the head of the tech department... she couldn't do anything to stop me from using the flash drive, because I had to show her how to do a lot of stuff.
Something that likely should have been done when the computers were purchased.
Yes, I'm assuming that the MacBooks were overpriced for the schools just like they are for your average consumer.
@getwired
Anyone incapable of hitting an update button shouldn't own a laptop in the first place. You can even get laptops running Windows for the price I mentioned. I don't hate Macs or anything but I don't think it's the most cost affective solution for the school system but then again I may be wrong.
Then you look at what a 2-3 year old MacBook sails for used. Macs have extraordinary resale value. On ebay right now, 3 year old MacBooks are going for $500. So we assume the district sells of the MacBooks to a liquidator in mass for about $350 each. The district then pays $350 buck per MacBook for a 3 year period.
Combine that with Apple's support, expertise, and ease of management in an educational market and it easy to see why the district would choose MacBooks over a cheaper PC.
Good point but are they really going to sell them after 3 years and are they going to be in good condition? I mean... the text books we used when I went to school were probably cycled every 6 years or so with the exception of the more time sensitive subjects such as History, Government, Geography, etc.
"Hhmmmm, what do you suppose the resale value is on those Dells Frank?", "Well, I'd say about half the resale value of the Mac Books."
"Well, that settles it, we'll go for the Mac Books, resell them in a couple of years and use the money for a vacation in Mexico."
Yep, that must have been their number one priority.
So you are saying teachers wouldn't have to update OSX or windows including browsers?
You are correct, that is what IT is for.
BTW, updating Linux including browsers is a 1-click affair. I am sure that mythical tech support giving teacher can figure it out.
No more HEAVY backpacks,etc...
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Economy/story?id=7827997&page=1
I love my mac. But anyone that sits there trying to sell the idea that learning to use an apple is more benifitial to education is smoking crack or just plain clueless.
Are they going to teach a course on imovie? itunes perhaps?
You ought to look for a few clues, because you obviously aren't a thinking person. The opinions of ignorant people need not be shared.
Since the teaching of the o/s would be incidental to the course material, better to teach them something they can use when they graduate than something used by such a small market.
Of course a small cheap netbook running Linux would probably have been a better choice. As someone pointed out, they are so cheap they can be easily replaced, the o/s doesn't need constant updating but is still easy enough to do for people who can press a button.
And for the rest of us, once you click on the icon for launching the software, the focal point would be the software, not the O/S. However, since you have to use the O/S anyway, you're bound to learn something about it, that is unless you're a Mac fan with your hands over your ears and a blindfold over your eyes, humming loudly.
Agree. Apparently a lot of people on this comment thread do not grasp that difference either :-)
I guess if they were using windows laptops you would be saying they will teach WMP, their third rate movie maker program, and um itunes.
Yeah, pretty hard to click on buttons.
You MS fanboys love to put your stupidity on display.
That is because windows users spend half their time on their computers doing maintenance.
Just because you like OS X is no reason to brutalize school children by making them conform to your ideals.
Think different- let them make their own choices instead of you deciding what is good for them.
What do I know though? I'm a just a geeky PC with a high-paying, in-demand programming job.
But what do I know? I'm just a smarmy mac user who will stop working well before most drones thanks to my high-paying creative job and design business.
Of course you are. I bet you're also 6'4", athletic, married to a supermodel, and have 14 mistresses - six of whom work as actresses in the porn industry. You probably live in a beach house on Maui, and have a quintuple-black-belt in 52 different martial arts as well... of course, this is only when you're not saving children by the thousands in (insert 3rd-world country here), or paling around with Obama and the Bushes on their days off...
(...do you get the idea that simple assertion doesn't mean much around here? ;) ).
I would be careful. Chances are that one of these kids will be your boss and fire your ass once your in-demand programming job gets outsourced!
.net "programming" is API monkey work, not real programming.
There is a similar program at my son's high school. Of course, as part of the Macbook for every student program, you are required to agree to be financially responsible for your child's care of the notebook. That is, if he/she breaks it, you pay for it. It is highly suggested you buy an expensive insurance policy to protect you and your student in the event of such an occurance.
Your son or daughter must also agree to not to use the notebook inappropriately. I know this is standard, but I feel one should expect students to most likely do so. Fortunately, my son never brought his home. I don't like the idea of a school computer on my network at home. They probably would key log and track everything on that computer and potentially could have access to your network if you allowed it to connect to your network for internet use. Just a your place of work or business reels at the thought of allowing personal computers or devices to connect to their network for the threat of virus or other malicious attacks, I would have the same feeling as letting a school computer connect to mine.
Any faulty security on that machine could leave your network at risk. You, as a parent, do not have control over the school computer or its settings. It may be a moot point for some, but I try to minimize my risk for mine.
I would even speculate that the Macbooks for middle school students would be more of a distraction than a learning tool.
...you do realize that parents do routinely let their kids (eventually) drive the family car, do you not? Care to take a stab at how much a typical family car costs, vs. a laptop? ;)
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They are also paying for INSURANCE that will pay for the cost of a new car. I totaled my parents car (which I had their permission to drive while mine was in the shop) 2 years ago..... they paid my parents 12,000 dollars for the car, more than enough to replace it if they bought a used one, but my father wanted a big truck for use up in West Virginia when they go up in the winter.
well said! i would prefer my kids carry $300 netbooks; not $1500-$2000 machines.
"...you do realize that parents do routinely let their kids (eventually) drive the family car, do you not? "
And you do realize we're talking about a computer and not a car, right? Or are you now suggesting that the school should be giving cars out to the kids too? You'll be a popular one with those kids. :)
But consider that most parents would not be buying their kids new cars with warranties and service contracts, but instead will be buying the $1000 first cars that have no support at all are meant to be used for more than school. Your point is interesting, but flawed.
You are truly ignorant Dan.
This is about money, marketing, and elected officials trying to look like they are doing something "for the children"
Maine School Districts face budget shortfalls:
http://morningsentinel.mainetoday.com/news/local/5915281.html
Maine School Districts have $190 million budget shortfall for 2008-2009
http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080317/GJNEWS_01/545919647
Maine School Districts out of cash turn to Federal Stimulus package to pay for new laptops:
http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews/articleid/3270041
That's right- Maine isn't paying for the laptops- you are. Or rather all the citizens of the United States gets to pay for this project insteaed since Maine can't afford it. Personally, I would have thought paying for more teachers and fixing up the existing infrastructure of the school districts would be more important than what essentially is corporate sponsorship, but apparently I am in the minority.
I'd rather spend the money on education, not toys. Give a kid a laptop they don't have to pay for and they won't take the same care of it that they would if they owned it. This has been tried before in other states and the laptops are basically junk at the end of the year. Some schools force the parents to then pay for repairs and that can be rather pricey, or they just have the tax payers eat the costs. Either way, it's not a good solution.
If they want to offer laptops, make a deal with the OEM for a very deep discount instead. Don't make the tax payers pay Apple for laptops when we have teachers being cut back and laid off.
Awesome.
Break it down another way - to a per-student basis? It costs $2520 per kid in bound paper textbooks over a four-year period (assuming an avg. cost of $45/book, 7 class periods per day, and 2 semesters). replace that with one laptop containing all the books the kid needs, you have a ton of change left over after buying the kid an $900 (rough bulk discount) MacBook laptop, eBooks to fill it, and even buying AppleCare on it for four years... a time period not improbable at all, given the average Apple computer's lifetime (even most businesses will stretch cheap PC's out to 3 year cycles).
...and we haven't even touched on the storage and shipping fees that textbooks usually come with.
Plus I'm very sure that if Maine bought Windows-based laptops instead, you'd be among the first to cheer it - price be damned. ;)
When a state can't afford to keep enough teachers on staff to teach the students, having them turn around and spend money on laptops seems irresponsible.
Good point.
High school text books are not currently available as downloadable electronic content. Some college content is, but this is still a new area. High school students will be forced to carry both laptop and a stack of books. So your entire point about text book costs simply does not apply.
Besides, the school districts aren't applying to federal funds for textbooks. They *are* applying to get funds for laptops. Wouldn't you rather have them keep teachers employed than spend money on laptops?
I'd rather have teachers in schools teaching kids than handing them a laptop instead.
Your right Dan, but I bet that you turn that text book into a PDF.
"Your right Dan, but I bet that you turn that text book into a PDF."
No, that would be illegal due to copyright infringement. Only the publisher of the text book could legally do that or authorize another group to perform the service. A school district would not want to be put into a legal liability by scanning and converting textbooks in such a manner.
How about you worry about your own education, which is sorely lacking.
That is still less than 1K per computer, not even factoring in repair costs.
School insurance for one half calendar school year of coverage of the Macbook was over $200. If your child's notebook was in need of repair, IT would have it sent off and hopefully, there is a spare for your child to use.
Hell PC or Mac either way Im still going to make money on IT support because someone is bound to mess them both up.
1. Uber Nerds: Linux users
2. Poindexters: Windows users.
3. Normal people who believe a computer should be used and not require tinkering/maintenance every other minute: OS X
I saw bravo Maine.
2.normal.
3.dumb.
Windows users: normal people who realize that a sophisticated piece of hardware like a computer NEEDS regular maintenance, and uh...... my PC? Maintenance MAYBE once a week, and that's only running CCleaner and defragging the hard drive (usually do that more like once a MONTH!)
OSX Users? Dumb people who cannot realize that they are DRAMATICALLY overpaying for an OS that has JUST AS FREAKING MANY PROBLEMS AS WINDOWS DOES.... in fact, on a more regular basis than Windows does!
I have yet to EVER have a Windows machine get messed up unless: 1. The hard drive fails (**** happens), 2. Someone has been mucking around where they don't belong (break their damned hands!), or 3. an uninstaller doesn't uninstall correctly (haven't seen this since Windows 98!).
1. Linux - people that enjoy tinkering and puzzling out how to make a computer do something different.
2. Windows - People that either do not have the time to tinker or do not have the money for Apple or just enjoy Windows since it is still on top of the OS world
3. Apple - People like you that love to spout that apples is better even though the past two PWN2OWN comps it was the first to fail. OS X is not any better then Windows or Linux.
The one thing I didn't see mentioned is who is paying for all the MacBooks? Wasted Tax Dollars yet again.
- by Dan7637 June 30, 2009 10:52 AM PDT
- wow those kids in maine are lucky
- Like this Reply to this comment
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Showing 1 of 2 pages (149 Comments)i live in California and here the best we had for my history class was eMac's- they were so slow
even my macbook was better than the iMac's we had for computer art