Comments on: Apple sued over iTunes workaround discussions

A Web site operator that received a cease-and-desist letter from Apple warning it to remove discussions related to alternative iPod management software is fighting back.

[ddhboy]

Apple is out of line with that one, I wonder what arguement their legal department came up with to defend that.

[timber2005]

The defence was "it's worth a shot", hoping they would roll over onto their bellies and decist.

Hey... it was a 50/50 shot. :p

[monkeyfun14]

And people call MS bad?

[Tbdsamman]

People call Microsoft evil for adding support for HDCP and the like.
People call Apple innovative for finding the best ways of locking people out of their purchased media.

[Random_Walk]

@Tbdamman: Wrong! any ordinary person can rip iTunes purchases (pre- or post-DRM era) to .wav, then to .mp3 or whatever format they like.

Now try to do that with a DRM-locked Zune tune... ;)

[David Dudley]

Removing DRM from Windows based PlaysForSure is a joke. You don't even have to convert it to a wav file, aiff, or whatever and then recompress yet again. Mirakagi, FairUse4WM, etc. - it makes it easy to remove the DRM and have yourself a shiny WMA to play, transcode, whatever.

This is not the first time Apple has invoked the power of the DMCA. They've done it regarding hackint0shes, dvd burners and PlayFair authors/hosting providers, for example. Apple is not afraid of going after the little man to make sure they continue to generate revenue and protect their IP. They are, after all, a company that needs to generate return for their investors.

Microsoft is evil for their EEE strategy they've used for so long: embrace, extend, extinguish. They tried it with Java and they tried it with the web via IE.

[Rolker]

I don't don't understand how people don't see the irony. People trash MS because they are "close" and not support standards (which is partially true, although things are changing today, as far as I know).
But no one cries out that Apple obligates you to use iTunes for music, etc. when you own an Ipod or Iphone. There are alternatives, but most people use iTunes as the difault. iTunes is a good service, but there are other services which are better, in my view.
No body cries out when they add all the "i" software and Safari with OS X. What is the difference between MS and Apple? And please don't tell me MS is a software company while Apple is a hardware company, because OS X is software...

[monkeyfun14]

@Random

Zune Marketplace sells drm free files as well for only a dollar.

[rapier1]

@Random_Walk,

Actually, you can rip Zune marketplace songs pretty easily to strip out the DRM. Any number of applications like Tune Bite can do it. Heck, with Tune Bite you can even rip multiple songs at once. So as long as "Install an application" is in the realm of 'ordinary people'.

[Pete Saman]

Looks like the screaming, crying babies have moved from the iphone into Apple's legal department.

[inachu1]

I stopped buying apps for my iphone since apple will not let me get my data back Their store selling service should also be a backup service. I bought $400 worth of music an movies and one day my pc died and had to buy a new one and it was time for a iphone patch anyway so I patched and now I cant get any of my movies or music back and the ones from the phone are now unplayable due to drm

[eagle95]

Seriously???? I'm really tired of people always blaming someone else for their screw ups. YOU DID NOT HAVE A BACKUP? As cheap as flash drives, external hard drives, etc. you have no one to blame for that one but yourself. As for getting it back, there is one way... There is a place that you can request from apple for a one time download of all purchased data. It is all over Google. Call them, then BACK UP.

[monkeyfun14]

Eagle
There is no reason that a record of his/her purchases are not kept.

[ralfthedog]

Another choice would be to pull the hard drive from the old computer, put it in an external enclosure and search it for files with the m4v extension. If you are not technically skilled talk to a local computer tech. They will do this for you cheep.

[ywkhgqo]

eagle95, itunes should be able to do this. its not even hard code.

for people buying mp3 players with this in mind, zune keeps track of all the tracks you download from them! and you can redownload them at any time.

[nickh2]

"There is no reason that a record of his/her purchases are not kept."

They are. Open iTunes, Go to the Store. Click on "Account" in the Quick Links panel.

[myles taylor]

Move them back using Senuti, authorize your computer using your iTunes account, burn them to a CD and Rip them to remove DRM. I'm not saying it's easy, but you can do it.

[Renegade Knight]

@eagle95

The data is on the iPhone and PC the backup should be automatic. Plus apple has a record. They could do this easy enough.

[Dalkorian]

by ywkhgqo April 27, 2009 6:08 PM PDT
zune keeps track of all the tracks you download from them!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, and if there's 366 days in a year these zunes brick themselves because they think you're doing something weird with them! Seriously, how can anyone be comfortable knowing M$ is tracking them in this way?

Disclaimer: I'm not a big fan of the iTunes store either for similar reasons, but at least so far Apple has kept their FairPlay DRM trashware the same or removed it entirely, instead of playing the customer raping game of doesn't PlayForSure because we want to make more money with our zune DRM spyware.

Does anyone actually believe that M$ would have come up with the zune if it weren't for the iPod? The xbox if it weren't for the PS? In other words, does anyone actually think M$ can innovate instead of just mimmic?

[ikramerica--2008]

I use Macs and hope Apple loses this one. It would help define the DMCA better.

But part of the problem again is likely the record companies, who are making money off of ringtones (ridiculous sums), and this kind of work around would allow anyone to avoid paying the ringtone extortion. Of course, you can get around that, too, but it's a bit of work...

[RompStar_420]

Me too, I love Macs, but this is not cool, Apple should pay up...

[superaznman]

Doesn't Media Monkey do that already? It allows you to sync songs to an Ipod just like i tunes.

[ZetaZeta_]

And Songbird too. However, I don't think they talked about components of Apple copywritten software in a public manner, like whatever the team in the article did. Or if they did, Apple didn't really know much about it.

The key here is not reverse engineering something held secret by a company, but discussing in public something's implementation before you write the code? Maybe.

[Renegade Knight]

They both do. The website would discuss how to use them to do it. I've used Media Monkey, it's not all that easy. iTunes is limited. Personally I'd love one that can handle audio books well. So far nothing is very good and apple made it a PITA to set them up right (short of buying them via the itunes store).

[Random_Walk]

I find it funny that the details are rather scant. gtkpod+ has been around for years and is open source (works great in Linux, too). Rockbox will replace your old iPod's firmware entirely.

I suspect that there's more involved than just syncing with an iPod, and I doubt we'll see the whole story now (I'm very sure the website in question likely hid/deleted the really nasty DMCA-violating stuff.

Long story short? There are quite legal ways of rooting around an iPod without iTunes. OF the two examples I listed, one replaces iTunes in functionality, and the other replaces the iPod firmware entirely. Both have been left alone perfectly by Apple. This makes me wonder what the full story actually is, or if CNET merely fell victim to sensationalism...

[Zoobie]

On the face, this sounds like Apple is in the wrong. However, we only have a two-paragraph article from which to draw a conclusion. If it's just a wiki and people are discussing ways to work around iTunes, Apple is wrong. But I think there's got to be more to it than that or Apple would have already gone after gtkpod+, Anapod, or Rockbox. Maybe the wiki was posting parts of proprietary iTunes code and discussing ways to recompile it?

There's got to be more to this story than is expressed above for any of us to form a comprehensive stance one way or the other on this one.

[unknown unknown]

In theory reverse engineering for interoperability is still suppose to be protected even in the DMCA (Section 1201(f)). Or that is what they said to assuage critics of the DMCA.

[unknown unknown]

One more comment. This why I don't an iPod, they require proprietary software to manage.

[Random_Walk]

...so does a Zune - so what d'ya own? (note: I'm lazy, so I just use my Blackberry)

[SeizeCTRL]

@ Random, but this isn't about the Zune, this about Apple being lawsuit happy! You can't tell people to THINK DIFFERENT when you threaten to sue them when they decide to think differently then the what you try to lock them into.

[unknown unknown]

@Random_Walk I have a Sandisk Sansa, it shows up as a drive and I can drag and drop my music to it with the built in file manager, be it "Computer" (formerly "My Computer") under Windows, Finder on Mac , or Nautilus on Ubuntu.
I refuse to buy DRM encumbered downloads so it works with all the music I have.

[Vegaman_Dan]

Wow. I didn't know Apple also controlled what you did with your iPod after you bought it. Only authorized to use iTunes? That confirms you're locked in with at that point. If Apple wants to avoid a very nasty lawsuit from the EU or others for locking people into their mandatory application, then they would be advised to let this issue drop and let a website discuss alternatives.

Alternatives already exist- Red Chair Sofware's Anapod Explorer comes to mind.

[AllenKids]

iTunes goes DRM-free then suddenly EU lost all interest in pursuing Apple. Microsoft on the other hand is and will be the money maker, I feel sorry for them, on this one. But however this is not uncalled for.

Also Zune locks the Hardware + Software just like the iPod + iTunes. While I'm not necessarily on Apple's side with this particular lawsuit. Let's not pretend Apple is the new devil in town.

[monkeyfun14]

@Allen

Zune has drm free music too. They actually had it first...

[AllenKids]

@monkeyfun14

No, they don't. Not before iTunes. iTunes gone iTunes plus with EMI early 2007.

Zune Market follow the pursuit later with the 2 gen hardware launch.

To be fair, Zune at the time did have a larger collection of DRM-free content.

[CrashPad63]

AllenKids, Apple since its inception has been the evil one. A wolf in sheeps clothing. You just dont see it.

[AllenKids]

@CrashPad63

Well, then it's hardly news isn't it? I'm not agreeing with you, just saying.

On second thought, for a big bad wolf as you suggested Apple is, he certainly leave most of the computer industry sheep herd alive, hmmm...

[Dalkorian]

@Allen - you realize you're arguing with a feces flinging monkey?

[inachu1]

Would be nice if they kept it simple and let users DRAG AND DROP files onto their ipod or iphone player. This cult of not allowing drag and drop is like keeping people locked into windows 3.1 mode. tell them it is better this way.

[AllenKids]

In fact DRAG & DROP is the old school way of managing your music.

Syncing is more easy, efficient, need less human intervention. I prefer synch any day.

iPod also let you drug & drop if you insist on hand pick your music every time, of course in the iTunes interface, not the normal finder/explorer way, but nonetheless.

In fact I demand Wi-Fi synch ability. Make it happen, Apple!

[zyxxy]

dopisp works well as a Windows Media plugin for syncing to an iPod.

[MMC Racing]

What a shock - not really.. Welcome to corp. America. It is not that Apple is doing more "evil" than most companies - some just like to hold Apple on a unrealistic pedestal

[B-Ri]

I just wish when you switched from Manual to auto syncing that itunes wouldn't then assume they have to blow away the ipod and resynch everything. very time consuming with large libraries. I know it probably has to do with some type of copy protection so you don't pull music from someone elses library and then synch back to your own but really lame in my book. I love the ipod but itunes has always been the week link in my opinion though to be honest I haven't bought much from the itunes store so maybe if I did I might think differently. Also what's up with drm free? The only songs that show up in the upgrade to drm free is from the one full album I bought. individual songs and mostly songs that I got through Pepsi promotions haven't appeared in the list. curious to say the least.

[JoeKoskovics]

This is a very interesting balancing act for Apple, and it could cost them future users. Consumers are demonstrating a need that the company is possibly unwilling or unable to fill. This could have been any one of a number of other companies that have a closed hardware & software architecture. And anyone else would have been scorned and accused by the public for not being "open" to new ideas and customer demands. This site operator has a valid point. Let's see if Apple can "Think Different" on this one.

Open debate, discussion, and development is a good thing. It just has to be channeled into a positive model that's good for the company AND the consumer.

[surf&work]

Apple has become the evil empire in their "1984" commercial.

[tgrenier]

I hope whichever side of this case you support, you support the corresponding view in the Pystar case.

[AllenKids]

Pystar is making a profit.

This site is a freaking wiki.

Perhaps make no difference in the eyes of DMCA. It makes hell of difference to me.

[Dalkorian]

@Allen - well said. Bingo!

[jmans1212]

People should be allowed to use what ever software they want on any hardware they purchase. This doesn't surprise me from Apple. The OS end user license agreement won't allow you to load the software on anything else other than an apple hardware.

But this is not just an issue of freedom of speech. Any website should be allowed to discuss openly alternatives to running a set software on any device. I wonder if Cnet had an article discussing the same thing would they sue Cnet?

[fsckMS]

and this is coming from a man who used to sell blue boxes out of the back of his car. Down with MaApple