Comments on: Psystar antitrust claim against Apple dismissed

Mac clone maker Psystar's best hope of emerging as a winner in its legal dispute with Apple is dealt a severe blow by a federal judge.

[trd1282]

Predictable...

[ikramerica--2008]

Absolutely. 9% market share of the OS market (if that) is not a monopoly. Not when the bulk of the market is dominated by one other OS?

[timber2005]

Antitrust =\= Monopoly.

[drhamad]

It all comes down to how you define the market. Pystar was saying Apple has a 100% marketshare of MacOS based systems, which is true.

Also you don't need an actual monopoly for it to be an antitrust issue.

[Flytrap]

Oh yes, right. That logic would make the purveyer of every intelectual property a monopoly. BE were the only supplyer of the BEOS, so they were a monopoly as well; Sun is the sole supplier of the Solaris operating system, so they are a monopoly as well (yes I know there is OpenSolaris); let's not stop there, all those cell phones with proprietory operating systems, let's institute anti-trust action against them as well because we also want to make clones of their handsets (why should we be forced to use Symbian or Linux?)... But why stop with operating systems, why should Bosch be the only supplier of the engine management system for their fuel injection system; let's institute anti-trust procedings against BMW for refusing to let me make and market my own version of the latest BMW M5. I'm sure that I could convince a few people to buy it over the real thing from BMW, after all, it will be cheaper, will run a real BMW engine sourced from the open used engine market, and it will work almost like the real thing (it'll have four wheels, a steering wheel, bakes, a roof over head, and that famous powerful engine under the hood)

[pj-mckay]

Absolutely but there appear to be a few morons who cannot read or understand the issue. The issue being simply that the OS has to run on an Apple, well in Apples eyes it must. Other OS can run on many platforms, hence why MS has the bulk of the market. One day Apple might actually claw back some market share by opening it's eyes but history has said otherwise so far. What would happen if Shell said you could only put their gas in a Ford. Would they all just say... OK that seems fair as it is their Gas and can decide who can use it? I don't think so.

And hey... I'm not goiing to buy a MAC in the near tem BUT I would seriously think about it if they opened up the hardware market and got competitive. Come on Psystar... you need a miracle BUT they do happen from time to time!

[kcotham]

Psystar should be paying Apple for violating their terms of use. Apple could only be called a monopoly if it was the only computer manufacturer on the planet, or at the least the only one available here in the US. It isn't the only computer manufacturer nor is it the only supplier or operating systems. So, they are NOT a monopoly, case closed. Psystar is trying to make money on another company's R&D. Apple would be well within their right to sue them for every penny they have.

[Seanathome]

But most people can make the argument that Apple's MAC OSX is gradually becoming more popular, which will make this "monopoly" discussion more relevant. Apple has always had monopolistic systems, closed computers, closed players. The antitrust argument is pretty relevant...

Anway, I really hope Psystar wins this case. I'm saving up to purchase from them... ;)

[Thomas, David]

Seanathome ... seriously, if you are in school, ask a business teacher, or lawyer what a monopoly is. When it's used to describe Apple, and their own Operating System, which they license to use on their own hardware, that is simply not a monopoly. If Apple licensed their OS to a few select PC manufacturers, and then tried to prevent Psystar from using the OS, then that would be considered anti-competitive, and not lawful (but still they wouldn't be considered a monopoly by any real sense of imagination).

[joshsc]

Apple uses anti-competitive practices just like MS. I'm really tired of this Apple is better than Windows, Microsoft sux, Apple elitist attitudes. The Mac OS has just as many bugs and security holes...oh wait... MORE SECURITY HOLES than Windows.

I for one hope Psystar wins. Not because I don't like Apple but because it will finally show all the Mac users out there that once the OS gets in more hands, all of these elitist opinions will be found to be false- macs get viruses, macs crash, Apple also puts out crap-ware (MobileME).

If Macs were so wonderful, why is Apple putting help centers in all of their stores? If people weren't having problems, they wouldn't need those help centers in the stores.

(steps off soap box)

Ok.. back to the program.

[Renegade Knight]

It's fair use to stick an OS on a computer. That's what an OS is for. At question is if the OS maker can dictate what computer you stick it on.

This is really simple at heart.

Like you point out. At this point the monopoly issue is moot. Apple acts like a monopoly but with their market share they aren't one.

[ittesi259]

If Psystar wins it will be saying the following:

You mad your own product that you sell yourself and don't let 3rd parties sell or use to sell their own products. You are anti competitive and antitrust laws apply to you"

Um....yeah regardless of your opinion of Apple thats a bad precedent to set for business. It'd be like me buying a bunch of GM engines to put in my own cars that I'm selling. And when GM tells me to stop I have this legal precedent to fall back on. (I understand this is not a great example as GM is currently in such financial mess they'd be happy to just sell the engines).

[Rytalin]

Psystar ships all their OSX boxes with sealed copies of OSX that they buy from Apple, last time I checked, so they technically are paying Apple.

With this whole vista fiasco, Apple is kinda become like the lifeguard whos offering you a quality lifesaver to pull you out of the water, but only if you pay the premium for it and join his club afterwards. And the lifesaver is exactly the same as every other lifesaver out there.

[Dalkorian]

Joshsc, when you grow up and buy your own computer, we'll discuss the issues you're spreading FUD about. First hint: you're just wrong about everything, please don't drop out of school. You have a LOT to learn.

[kcotham]

@Seanathome, Why are you typing Mac OS X in all capitals? Why is it that WINDOWS users do this (annoying isn't it?)? Oh, and please look up the term "monopoly" in the dictionary, you are grossly misusing the term. Why don't you buy a real Macintosh now, instead of buying an illegal, and poorly made copy in the future?

[kcotham]

@joshsc, they are putting Genius Bars in all Apple Stores to help people migrate to the Mac OS X. To teach them how to use their computers. It's mainly for people like Rafe Needleman (writer at CNET) that have been brainwashed by Microsoft and need a little help learning a different way of doing things. How is this a bad thing, as you imply?

[Perry_Clease]

"The antitrust argument is pretty relevant... "

The Judge has a different opinion

[victor_sf]

So? If the judge tells you to jump off a cliff, will you?

[Renegade Knight]

@victor_sf

It's not a about cliffs. It's about resolution. That part of the issue is closed. That way folks who want to get on with life can.

[EvanMcClure]

The computer may be open, but the OS isn't. The Judge did the right thing.

[kaosfury]

Unfortunately for Apple, the Mac uses high end equipment to compete with lower end pc's. Psystar would have been a way to popularize the OS with those of us who cannot afford $2000 for a computer. Don't bother mentioning the mini. It's not worth the time.

[BtmnHatesRbn]

Has Psystar ever heard of FreeBSD, OpenBSD, OPeNSTEP, OpenGEM...

I'm just pointing out that they could've just used one of these "free" OSs that are similar to OSX, then just add some APIs that allow Mac applications to run. I know that Apple will just look the other way because, to Jobs, that's flattery in trying. To just up and use *his* OS, that's what drives him nuts.

Tell the Psystar boys something: Kick back, relax, read some funny review over at agonybooth.com and listen to some Regina Spektor while drinking some Sleepytime Tea.

[kieranmullen]

Your first line I believe should end in a question mark.

To answer that. They do. Have you even been to their website before you spout remarks?

http://store.psystar.com/linux

KieranMullen
http://360oregon.com

[drhamad]

Oh yes, those are oh-so-similar to OSX...

[lkrupp]

Psystar's whole argument, apparently, was that the Mac is a market unto itself and therefore Apple maintains a monopoly in its own market. I'm not a lawyer but that really doesn't make any sense. On the other hand whoever said laws have to make sense. Was Psystar trying to say that, if they made automobiles instead of computers, they could slap together some parts and call it an "Open Chevy"?

[tanis143]

Too bad. the Mac OS is by far one of the companies shining jewels when it comes to the PC market. Their hardware is over priced for what it is. Whats funny is that if Apple opened up their O/S to other platforms they would have the same compatibility issues that Windows has, proving that their O/S isn't superior, just not as popular.

[Perry_Clease]

Groan! I am not going to even try refuting your points, they have been refuted numerous times.

[bootchmagoo]

Which is exactly why they don't open their OS to other platforms. If you want a real Mac OS, you better pony up the cash and buy a Mac.

Apple hardware works with Apple software. That's why people buy it.

[montex66]

If you think Apple hardware is overpriced, don't buy any. Simple as that. Why so many of Apple's critics have trouble with this simple concept is bizarre.

If you really want to invest in the cheapest, most failure prone hardware - go right ahead. In the meantime, I have no problem buying the best from the best. ;-)

[joshsc]

Only speaking for notebooks, but Apple notebooks don't have any less failure rates than any other brand notebooks. There was a recent study done that showed the 5 top notebook companies to have within one percentage point, the same failure rate. The reason for this is because ALL LAPTOPS are manufactured by one of three different companies in China. This includes APPLE MACs. So don't go and say they use superior equipment. They don't. Windows based PCs also come with higher grade parts than one sees in a Best Buy. Best Buy just doesn't stock them cause the cheap stuff sells faster.
The only thing wrong with Apple computers are the elitist apple users. No one likes snobs

[Zoobie]

joshsc: "There was a recent study done ..."

Please provide a link to the recent study so we can all validate your point. Otherwise, we have no way of knowing if you are making this up.

[Dalkorian]

by Zoobie November 19, 2008 7:55 AM PST
joshsc: "There was a recent study done ..."

Please provide a link to the recent study so we can all validate your point. Otherwise, we have no way of knowing if you are making this up.

------------------------------------------------------------

ROFLMAO! Read his other comments, he's mentally a 12 year old using his mommy's computer in her basement. He's making everything he writes up on the spot.

[mbrown3391]

And you seem just as immature, dalkorian, by finding each of his posts and making a little comment on it. If you are a mac user, you are only helping to prove joshsc's point. He says that mac users are elitists, and based on all your comments about how you are superior to him because you are apparently older than him, he's right.

[pilaa]

Here Here Montex66!! I couldn't have said it better myself!! I am a Apple user and proud of it. It just behooves me to no end why anyone would want to spend their valuable time tinkering with a Windows machine when they could be doing serious work on a Mac these days...

[ckurowic]

Apple's build quality is superior to anything out there, and I've built my share of PC's. It is simply a fact. If you want cheap crap, go buy a Windows PC like a Dell, thats fine for a lot of people, but so is buying a Kia :-p.

[joshsc]

Again, Apples notebooks are built by the same PC manufacturers in China as all the rest. Their build quality is the SAME.

[nedj10]

Apple's build quality is superior? To what? Averatec? Please...Take *any* apple notebook *ever* made and compare it to any of the MILSPEC notebook, Panasonic Toughbooks being the best exmmple...seriously get a clue about what BUILD quality means.
I would love to see any Apple EVER survive the quality control tests toughbooks are put through. Sure this is a one off example but toughbooks are not the only milspec machines made, the very fact that the category exists makes this more than tyipical mac fanboy comment ridiculous as it is ignorant.

Better yet...take any macbook, boot it...hold it 3 feet in the air over a running toughbook..now drop it on to the toughbook.

reverse the positions of the notebooks and repeat lets see which machine is still running and has all its parts afterwards

If that dosnt work take a glass of water pour it over the macbook...does it still run?

Drop it off a 2nd story window does it run?

*drive a truck over it*? does it still run?

And please don't even imply that the state of the Apple OS in some way contributes to build quality. toughbooks, or even the Dell ruggedized Lattitude XFR run Ubuntu or Centos just fine.

We know the toughbooks have been put through these tests repeatedly for years , sometimes by C-Net themselves.

.

[JonB.]

to NEDJ10:

You are right, milspec is a tough. There is only thing, show me a milspec'ed laptop or desktop computer at BEST BUY, CIRCUT CITY or any other retail outlet at the current price point that the non MILSPEC units are selling for. Milspec level computers are not easily available to the general public, and they are not competitively priced. Their pricing structure makes even Apples prices look bargin basement cheap.

[AppleSuxLeo]

I can`t believe Apple passes off it`s OS as easier to use. You will find this comparison with Windows interesting. Microsoft should use it in an ad poking fun at Apple. Here goes...
Q: How do I prevent downloading bogus files that are actually advertisements?
A: Some servers on the Gnutella network serve advertisements with false filenames to fake popular search results. If you find yourself downloading search results that end up being advertisements, you can stop receiving search results from that host by doing the following:
· On Mac, highlight the search result in question by clicking on it. Hold down the apple key and click the mouse. Check "Block Host".
· On Windows, right click the search result and "Block Host".

[AppleProLeo]

Man you really are stupid as you keep demonstrating in all your comments.

The argument - though true and was used in the early days - is no longer used as a 'feature/advantage' of the Mac OS over Windows. And definitely has not been used during the era of XP and OS X, so what are you talking about when you say " I can't believe Apple passes off it's OS as easier to use". Any links?

Then you go to argue against this promotion by Apple - which by the may doesn't even exist as Apple does advertise itself or passes Mac OS X as easier to use - by a nonsense example of downloading pirated illegal files and the right click.

Lastly you continue to show you lack of understanding and ignorance of the subject matter with your "Hold down the apple key and click the mouse" example. Mac OS supports right click, Apple Mighty mouse supports right click, 3rd part mouse right click is supported on the Mac OS.

You are full of Apple FUD just like Molly 'the FUD machine' Wood. Hell, you and Molly are one and the same.

[AppleProLeo]

P.S

Molly 'FUD' Wood's latest FUD - BOL 855 (24:37)

Tom: ...there is another app called Voice Dial that allows you to dial by name
Molly FUD Wood: It's like 25 bucks though.

FACT: Adela Voice Dialer £2.99, Cactus Voice Dialer FREE. Mind you personally, both are crap.

[Revelation-23]

As a convert from the Mac to a PC, the price for a decent Mac compared to the same for a PC is a main reason why I've stayed where I am for all these years, combined with what I've put into this computer and its predecessors, both in hardware and software. Windows works for me; it does what I ask of it and I have very few problems with it. No longer is one superior to the other. And to be honest, I think Apple's lost some of its edge over the years; maybe because there isn't much of a gap between the two as some would have you believe.

Windows isn't perfect; I won't try to tell you otherwise. But the same can be said of Mac OS and any flavor of Linux. I know what my computer is capable of and what it isn't and I see no reason to ditch my PC and start over. Of course, I could run Windows on the Mac, but why buy the "superior" machine if I'm going to spend most of my time with the "inferior" software?

Ignore what tech cultists and silicon elitists tell you - buy and use what works for YOU. While there may be some Mac only programs or PC only programs, there are more than enough alternatives out there to suit just about anyone's needs if your program isn't available on the other side should you make the switch. But if you do make the switch, check your licences to see if you're entitled to use the other OS' version, need a crossgrade license or have to get a new one - something I don't see mentioned when talking about making the switch.

[Orion Blastar]

Only Apple can make a PC that runs Mac OSX, that is Anti-Trust even if Apple only owns 9% of the market.

It is called freedom of choice, people should be able to buy any OS and be able to choose what computer to run it on. Not like Pystar modified OSX or stole it, people had to buy a legit copy of OSX to run on a Pystar system if not they run Linux, Windows, or Darwin (The free version of OSX without the GUI mess).

[Perry_Clease]

"Only Apple can make a PC that runs Mac OSX, that is Anti-Trust even if Apple only owns 9% of the market."

Once again, the Judge in the case disagrees with you.

"It is called freedom of choice, people should be able to buy any OS and be able to choose what computer to run it on."

You do not buy an OS, you buy a license to use it.

[Belinus]

It's just Apple's desperate attempt to keep their hardware relevant. While they love the fact they have a cult that worships them, they still do not trust them to keep shelling out the extra money for hardware to upgrade their Macs. They are scared that if Mac OS could boot to any PC, their hardware sales would go out the window. Why by a new Mac for a CPU upgrade when I can just open it up and swap CPUs?

[Perry_Clease]

"They are scared that if Mac OS could boot to any PC, their hardware sales would go out the window"

Well duh!

[mssoot]

Psystar is in serious trouble hear. Im no apple fan but it pretty obvious Psystar was benefiting by using Apple's name for the operating system. Face it, if it didn't come up with this crazy scheme there just another 2 bit computer hardware reseller like a million others. These guys are going to get their heads handed to them and rightfully so.

[RHartzell]

Too bad Psystar doesn't make iPod clones. I'd *love* to hear Apple's argument that it doesn't hold a monopoly in *that* market.

[Ipopngraphics]

Don't you Windblows fans have your own articles to post your 3rd grade comments on? Or at least back up your personal opinions with FACTS that might give you the appearance of having some intelligence? Cheese n rice there are more MS fans on Apple pages than there on on Windows pages.

You sound like a bunch of elementary school bullies who want to take my lunch money. Grow up.

And I am sick of hearing that "elitist" comment. I prefer Apple products, but I am by no means an "elitist" as my income would prove. I simply save up for what I think is the best for my money.

Definition of "elitist": a person who believes a system or society should be dominated by an elite.
Definition of "elite": a group of people considered to be the best in a particular society or category.

By those definitions, we can hardly be called elitists because we choose to buy smart. We are not concerned about Apple's domination of the market, we could care less. However, those of you who tout Windows market share, etc. to bash Apple certainly fall into that category, as you think that Windows is far superior and Apple should just go away.

Nuf said.

[nordstrl]

You are correct. You'd be hard pressed to find any Mac (notice the spelling people, MAC isn't even a machine) user who feel that their machine should be the only ones on the market.

[mbrown3391]

wow... i cant even believe I'm reading this!
"Don't you Windblows fans have your own articles to post your 3rd grade comments on?"
That is possibly the most contradictory, hypocritical, just plain retarded comment i have ever read. I mean, come on! Windblows? Whose posting third grade comments here?

[Perry_Clease]

"by Rytalin November 19, 2008 2:40 PM PST
Psystar ships all their OSX boxes with sealed copies of OSX that they buy from Apple, last time I checked, so they technically are paying Apple."

Do they ship a Mac to go along with that sealed copy of OSX? No they don't, nor are they authorized Apple by Apple to resell licenses of OSX so technically they are breaking the law.