Comments on: BitTorrent firms: Comcast throttling is anticompetitive

Companies relying on BitTorrent protocol charge that Comcast's slowing of peer-to-peer traffic blocks perfectly legal content that competes with cable TV.

[rcrusoe]

Comcast needs to throttle

IMO, Comcast needs to throttle Bittorrent.

I can't even watch HD some nights of the week. The picture
freezes, audio drops out every few seconds, etc. Since the
problem never occurs during the day it appears to me to be lack
of bandwidth.

If they actually delivered to their customers what they advertised
they probably wouldn't have been able to achieve a 54% rise in
fourth-quarter earnings. So give them a break, will 'ya.

Now, where's that number for DirecTV?

[-anon-]

Internet bandwidth != TV bandwidth

Cable's bandwidth is partitioned in channels, with most of them reserved for TV, a few for Internet downloads, and even fewer for Internet uploads. This is the first real problem, since p2p wants/assumes symmetrical connections; in any case, your TV shouldn't be degraded since it's separated.
This is a very good article since competition from hand-picked downloaded content, legal or otherwise, clashes head-on with subscription TV's outdated model of pushing lots of inane content and selling advertising on bundled channels that few people would want otherwise. There's also the classical problem of oversold bandwidth, of which contention by heavy usage is a symptom, not a cause. These are the real problems, the rest is FUD.

[Stoked1984]

You are truely ignorant

If you think that is what is causing your HD problems.

[dcase99]

Fine, but.....

Comcast needs to disclose that is what they are doing BEFORE customers sign up for their service. Not afterwards as they did for their acceptable use policy.

wow, this is why we have stupid laws

What in blazes does bittorrent activity have anything to do with your HD tv reception??!!?

This is why we are crazy laws when it comes to technology and the lawmakers have no clue how technology works. No wonder RIAA can't grasp why everyone thinks they are insane.

[Imalittleteapot]

What? Fine throttle your bandwidth.

What does Internet have to do with TV? Why throttle me and not you. What if a company needs to torrent a kernel upgrade, updated distro, updated Open Office, or a very important security update to keep their business running properly? What makes you think your HD watching or email forwards from your mother is more important than that?

Can't you see what's going on? They're creating a false shortage to charge more. Supply and demand influenced by greed. They shouldn't offer unlimited if they can't hack it.

[jrm125]

MORON

You are aware that the television bandwidth and the internet bandwidth are completely separate, right?

Idiot...

[ancre007]

Throttling is a short-term fix

Why should my neighbor using BitTorrent reduce the value I get from paying the same cable bill? Comcast should either (1) Offer tiered pricing and let bandwidths hogs pay more - and use this money to add capacity to their network (2)Or, throttle bandwidth hogs, but this is a battle it can't win in the long run. Option (1) seems fair to all stakeholders and has a better chance of success.

[hellsyes]

tiered pricing?

dont they already have different service levels, like 6mbps and 8mpbs?

As far as I'm concerned, if they advertise "unlimited internet", it should be unlimited and perform at the speeds they advertise. If they dont have the network capacity to handle those speeds, thats their problem-- they shouldn't advertise those speeds.

By the way, what they are doing is not "reasonable network management". If it was reasonable, they would only throttle it down to like 20 k/s. Instead, as soon as you begin to seed a torrent, the upload rate drops to basically zero.

What really bothers me is how often they denied it. If they're throttling what I'm paying for, they should at least tell me about it and not try to pretend their not doing it.

[dcase99]

Hmmmmm

Why doesn't Comcast just offer a higher rate circuit instead of oversubscribing so much where 1 application can disrupt their service?

[Imalittleteapot]

What makes you more important than me?

Whose bandwidth should be throttled? Why not yours instead of BitTorrent users? Do you think you're better than them? Do you think your precious little emails are made of gold? You're emails aren't important to me. What you do on the net isn't important to me. We should throttle you because my bandwidth is more important to me. It's not always piracy. Where I work we sometimes use torrents to download important files, and updates for our computers. That's more important than photos of your cat. Those can wait.

Sorry to be rude, but the real problem is if they offered us both unlimited we should both get unlimited. If they can't handle it they shouldn't offer it.

[chash360]

I have a Better Option...

Why can't Comcast advertise exactly what they sell, and then just sell exactly what they advertise. And when they reach the limit of what they can offer, they either have to expand or quit accepting new customers. I remember the first ads in my area, always on always connected, promoting video streaming, remember the 'Fan'.

They want to be able to throttle so they can steal a little of what they sold to you in contract, to get more contracts. Who better to steal from than people using a competitors product?

Why can't they accomidate the contracts they sold? Oh thats right they have more than just greed on their minds....they have their cable TV business to protect too....

BitTorrent aside I don't think they should be allowed to throttle traffic below contracted levels, for anything other than actual emergency real-time traffic, and only as temp fix, until new capacity is online. Which they better be working on.

[rcaugh]

Pay by the Meg?

Your comment opens the doors to broadband management like cell phone providers gouge for minutes. I never use my minutes but pay for them and still get just as many dropped calls. Do you want a tiered service that charges customers by the Megabyte? I don't think so because the basic home user would be the one paying more per meg. The bandwidth hogs would end up paying less per meg and you'd still end up with sluggish speeds. Anyway, most cities within two years will have free wifi which will bring the broadband provider cost down and this will be a non-issue.

[jrm125]

It's not our fault you don't use your full potential

By your logic, someone who only drives their 400 HP car around a city should pay less than the guy who opens it up on the highway since they only use part of the power band. You could use BitTorrent, you choose not to. We all sign contracts with Comcast giving us a certain amount of power, some of us use it to the fullest, some don't.

If Comcast can't handle that, they shouldn't advertise the capability in the first place.

[mpitogo]

I'll have to see how Timewarner Cable is

I've got the tripleplay, phone, cable tv and internet and also pay for
Roadrunner Extreme 20Mbps down 1Mbps up. I rarely watch
standard TV and of all the channels I watch, most of them are OTA
broadcasts I already get in HD and the only other channels I do
want don't come in HD. Discovery (not HD theater), NGC and
history channel. They need a better package I never even use the
phone.

[therealbean]

Throttling works for me

If the cost of not throttling BitTorrent is lower bandwidth for everyone, I am in favor of throttling.

Easy call.

[dcase99]

how about in the future

When they start reducing your bandwidth? Still ok with that?

[Stoked1984]

How do you know they are not throttling yours

First they said they did not throttle anything, and now they say they only throttle BitTorrent. BitTorrent is not just piracy, it also includes iTunes and other large scare services, and before you start jumping on me, it says so in comcasts filing.

[tanis143]

Absurd

Ok, so these BT firms are getting ticked because Comcast is throttling their service that "might" compete with their cable tv service? Lets see, Company uses bandwidth from Comcast, for FREE, to compete, and when that FREE bandwidth is cut off they gripe. Too pissin bad I say, go buy the bandwidth.

IMO Comcast has every right to manage its networks this way. How about they just come right out and say that BT is not allowed on their service? That would cut it out all. They have the right to do that at this point, just like their residential service does not allow web, email and ftp servers, for the same reason, bandwidth.

[dljames9]

The bandwidth is not Free

The argument that the Company is using free bandwith is
untrue. It is paid for by the subscriber, it's not free. If I but
Internet service with 1mbs capacity, then I should be able to use
that 1mbps as I see fit. The Company providing me content pays
for whatever bandwidth that they need to support its customers
from it's own provider. Apple delivers content to iTunes users
over cable modems, but no one is asking iTunes to to pay
Camcast for the bandwidth they use. If that were the case, the
price for content would increase, and I would expect Comacast
to provide my service for free.

[bananadan]

not just bit torrent

i use my comcast connection to upload stuff to my business all the
time. not huge files that take hours; rather just a number of MB
that I need to move around. What I notice is that they start out nice
and fast, and then they start dragging, as Comcast throttles them
down almost immediately. For those jerks to stand up in front of
congress and pretend they are not putting the brakes on almost
everything is laughable. What a bunch of liars.

[ralfthedog]

Try SSH.

If that does not work, try a VPN.

[SnowCrash8]

Conflict Of Interest

Declan Mccullagh raises a great point that beyond technical the cable provider has an economic incentive to control content. If there were a gazillion carriage options, maybe okay, but right now usually not the case. And where I live I am 99% sure that the cable co. has played footsey with the City Council through all kinds of free air time or supporting their causes that keep them in power, as a means to keep FiOS out.

What is really needed is more carriage choice, but until then the cable co's need to be under a magnifying glass for conflict of interest, and spanked when crossing the line!

[Mergatroid Mania]

Don't throttle, charge.

This is an example of why Net neutrality is a good idea.

If Comcast is having bandwidth problems that are affecting other customers, then they should start to charge LARGE fees for any bandwidth over a set amount. Then BitTorrent firms would still have the capacity available if they wanted to pay for it.

Don't throttle, but charge for the bandwidth. Use the extra funds being made to upgrade the infrastructure.

If the bandwidth limit before extra fees was set as a percentage, then when the infrastructure is upgraded to increase the total bandwidth, more would be available to BitTorrent companies.

They just have to make the fees high enough that they can pay for the upgrades in a reasonable amount of time.

There is nothing wrong with charging users who use more than their fair share of bandwidth.

[frnkblk]

Re: Don't throttle, charge.

Two press releases I received this week shared the concern that if MSOs *did* charge more for upstream, then some of those costs would be passed on to those already marginalized populations.

If it was cheap and easy, the MSOs would already be upgrading their network to accommodate higher upstreams. The reality is that they're willing to take a beating in the press because the upgrade path -- move to DOCSIS 3.0, improve the plant to handle higher modulations, split nodes, and double the upstream carrier from 3.2 MHz to 6.4 MHz -- would have to be accelerated at a significant expense and those costs would be passed on to the customer. And when those costs are passed on, subscribers will move to DSL or fiber, impacting the MSOs quarterly revenues, etc.

Frank

[intifan]

More than their fair share?

While I agree that if Comcast (or any other company) is having
trouble providing the bandwidth, they should charge more so only
those who REALLY want it will pay for it.

However those who are using up large portions of the bandwidth
are not using "more than their fair share of bandwidth" because
they are PAYING for the use of that bandwidth.

[hal9001a]

CC claims to not be Managing BT Downloads?

"When traffic has gotten to the point that it begins to degrade the experience of other users in that area, we have to manage uploads." (Comcast says it doesn't manage--that is, throttle--BitTorrent downloads.)"

Comcast is playing word games. Your Download Rate is based on your Upload Rate. If you have pieces to share (ie: Upload) and do not do so (or do it slowly), your Download Speed is reduced since the peers who you request pieces from will stop talking to you. This means blocking uploads IS throttling downloads DUE TO the upload blocking even though nothing is being done DIRECTLY to the download.

Also they have been proven to be screwing with BT even when there is no load on their network.

[zeroplane]

Even pure downloads are affected

I have downloaded content from usenet and a few content providers that use HTTP and FTP to distribute their content. Over the last six months the throughput has steadily decreased. I started with a max of 6000Kb/s and now I am lucky to get 1000Kb/s max to an average of about 100-30Kb/s on HTTP downloads.

If I setup a VPN or SSH or use SSL connections between my provider and my client I can sometimes get back to the original of about 6000Kb/s. But even then, the throughput seems to be blocked or severely throttled. You can't tell me that the network is degrading 24/7 because I have tested at different times of the day even at 4:00 AM on a Thursday morning. And yet all of my normal traffic seems throttled all the time.

[fokwp]

Pirate ship OK if good guys are on board

So, you are condemned if you provide an innovative communication service - in this case BitTorrent - if some of its users are pirates. But once you have some corporations using it as well, suddenly your service is supported, even if the same pirates are still using it. If Halliburton weren't using the phones, they'd make us unplug ours because some Mafia guy is making calls too. This country has absolutely no clue as to what is meant by either "innovation" or "free speech".

[LoboStrolls]

Pirate ship OK if good guys are on board

It's a good tool that is used for both good and bad.

I use it to download my new linux distributions in a
faster, more efficient manner. It can be a great tool.

As usual we are being strangled by the big corporations that are strangling innovation. This has got to stop.

[NProszkow]

You get what you pay for (or should you?)

Well, I am not a Comcast customer anymore, thank God. When I moved to the east coast I had a choice to stay with Comcast or try a company I knew nothing about (RCN). I decided that I had enough of Comcast?s rate hikes every 6 months and generally terrible internet services. RCN provides me with 20 MBit down and 2 MBit up and I get exactly what I pay for, no more and no less.

For those who want high bandwidth users to pay more, we are. What is shocking is the fact that I pay $60 for my 20 MBit down and 2 MBit up. I do not pay for cable TV. Comcast offers their "stand alone" high speed service of a whopping 8 MBits down and 768KBits up for $67.95! It is a complete rip-off, but, if you want the highest bandwidth, Comcast is definitely already charging people for it!

If you are happy with your 4 MBit ($57.95 if you don't have Comcast cable) or 6 MBit ($19.99 FOR 6 MONTHS then $42.95 afterwards with Comcast cable) down and 384 KBit up, great. You pay a lot less for your service.

Comcast is just a money guzzling company doing the same stuff that ExxonMobile does. They throttle supply and charge more for EVERYONE to get less than they deserve. (Not to mention their reciprocal support of individuals in the government...)

That is all for my ranting. Let me know if you agree.

[cyberbian]

DOS attack against their own customers!

Lets call this what it is.

Comcast has been committing a crime agains it's customer base. They have been launching DOS attacks. This is a federal crime and a violation of the Patriot Act. Where are the prosicutors?


If you or I attacked Comcast's servers in this manner we would be in jail by now. Our servers impounded as evidence.

[Mentor397]

Other companies do it too

Charter Communications does it too - they just haven't announced it or been caught at it.

[phrelin]

As Long As I'm Not Paying for It

I want to get my email and browse a bit. If you want to use peer-to-peer connections, or download or stream HD content, great - just pay 4 times what I do for your bandwidth use.

I get my TV from a satellite service. But if I got it from Comcast and they were unable to deliver because of some freeloading bandwidth user, I'd be angry.

I'm from the era when through regulation, we made sure everyone had equal access for the same rates for all "utility" services and extra benefits cost extra but also the same for everyone. I believe in that.

I'm an ISP customer Comcast inherited in an area Adelphia inexplicably installed cable service before going bankrupt. I'm fortunate that the bankruptcy court required Comcast to accept my area with the profitable areas. The "new" AT&T does not offer DSL in my area because it would not be profitable enough. And they charge more for a poor quality land line than they do in nearby urban areas for a high quality land line. Someone decided cell-phone service should include sending videos in urban areas, but no basic signal in or near my rural area home. I don't like it but it's an unregulated pay for what you use world, guys.

I too would like to go back to the days of "the phone company" when taxes, business rates and average-income-and-above urban customers subsidized univeral access to electric and telecomunications utilities for everyone. But that isn't going to happen. So it's time to acknowledge that the high-speed internet world is the same. We should pay for the bandwidth we use so the infrastructure can be funded, or permit the private ISP's to limit usage without complaint.

[Imalittleteapot]

Are you serious?

Freeloaders? First, people that use Bittorrent pay for the bandwidth. The ISP can charge whatever they want. It's not the customers fault if the ISP isn't charging enough to make a profit. It isn't the customer?s fault that they actually use the unlimited bandwidth that was sold to them.

If you think Bittorrent is only about piracy you had better learn real quickly that Bittorrent has plenty of lawful purposes.

If they want to charge Bittorrent users four times as much, well that?s fine with me. I will be glad to pay it. However, if I?m paying four times as much, and my transfer is getting slowed down because there isn?t enough bandwidth then I would fully expect them to throttle all your web browsing activity and email usage so my transfer could go through.

If I?m paying four times as much obviously my transfer would be four times more important than your email -- would it not?

I would also like you to explain to the world exactly why your emails and web usage are so much more important than everyone else?s. What makes little Phrelin so darn special huh? Just because you are not using as much? I payed for unlimited. Please explain to me why I shouldn't be using what I payed for?